NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: OnTheFly on August 23, 2014, 12:34:42 AM
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I have decided to up my shooting game. More dry-fire and more live rounds on the range. Because of this, I decided to start looking for a less expensive bullet. I had previously been buying Montana Gold 124gr CMJ RN. A case (3,750 bullets) is $370. I've been reading all I could find on the internet and talking to fellow shooters to see what they use. Somehow I started looking at X-Treme bullets. I decided to give them a try and ordered 500 of their plated 124gr RN. Supposedly the plating on a standard X-Treme bullet is thicker than other brands. This is supposed to allow you to push the bullet faster without issues. They also have an extra thick plated bullet for the same purpose. However, I'm not pushing the upper end. I want lower power round delivering softer recoil and faster follow up shots. Something in the low 130's power factor.
Before I loaded any, I randomly grabbed five of each brand of bullet and did some non-scientific comparison. Here is what I found.
Montana Gold 124gr CMJ RN
Average Standard Deviation
Diameter: 0.3546 0.00055
OAL: 0.5908 0.00396
Weight: 123.78 0.25884
X-Treme Plated 124gr RN
Diameter: 0.354 0
OAL: 0.5884 0.00089
Weight: 124.14 0.11402
From that VERY small sampling (yes...I know it should be bigger for a more accurate/meaningful analysis), it appears that the X-Treme are more consistent. Now, I'm not saying these measurements are all that is necessary to judge the bullets, but if my findings hold true, then the X-Treme seem to be more consistent in their manufacturing. Hopefully that will at least contribute to more consistent ballistics.
I loaded up 20 rounds with the same powder, charge, and OAL I've been using for the Montana Gold. Went to the range and shot 10 through the Chrono to get a power factor of 132 and a Standard Deviation of 13. This is very close to what the Montana Gold came in at.
Next was accuracy. Shooting from a rest at 25 yards, the bullets were hitting at point of aim. Albeit, strung out side-to-side which I'm sure was due to my (mis)alignment of the sights. All results were comparable to my tests with the Montana Gold.
Price comparison.
Montana Gold 3,750 bullets for $370 (free shipping)
X-Treme 1,000 bullets for $77.54 (includes $5 flat rate shipping)
Per Round 100 1,000 10,000
Montana Gold $0.09867 $9.867 $98.67 $986.70
X-Treme $0.07754 $7.754 $77.54 $775.40
Difference $0.02112 $2.112 $21.12 $211.20
Explanation for the quantities I used.
To get the best pricing, you have to buy the Montana Gold case. In addition, Montana Gold has free shipping. Well, not truly "free", but it is included in the price. However, X-Treme sells the bullets in boxes of 500 ($36.27 for the bullets in this example) with no discount for larger quantities. Their shipping is a flat $5. I asked if the shipping would still be $5 if I ordered 3K, and they said it would be. So I'm not sure where the quantity cut-off would be (if there is one) for the flat $5 shipping. To have a little more fair comparison, I decided to use two boxes (1K) of the X-Treme.
I'm sure to many the work of adjusting reloading equipment and testing a new round is not worth the small savings. In my case, I'm hoping to be shooting 20,000 rounds in the next year, so the savings is nothing to sneeze at.
The other area I will be looking at closely is barrel fowling. From the reviews I have read, the X-Treme, especially when shot less than 1,100 fps, maintain their copper plating out the barrel.
Once again, there are many factors that go into the equation of finding a good bullet. I'm not saying my findings are the be-all end-all specs, but it is just my preliminary observation.
Fly
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I've been using X-Treme since I started reloading (9mm). I haven't done any scientific measurements or such, but have had no problem with them in any of my 9mm guns.
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Or you could go this route and spend your time (and savings especially on the NEW 9mm) watching The Walking Dead.....
http://www.freedommunitions.com/Weekly-Sale-s/56002.htm (http://www.freedommunitions.com/Weekly-Sale-s/56002.htm)
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Or you could go this route and spend your time (and savings especially on the NEW 9mm) watching The Walking Dead.....
http://www.freedommunitions.com/Weekly-Sale-s/56002.htm (http://www.freedommunitions.com/Weekly-Sale-s/56002.htm)
If I do HALF as much shooting as I hope to in the next year, Freedom Munitions remanufactured 124gr RN would cost me $800 more than reloading. :o That's worth the time and work to reload...for me at least.
Fly
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I'll note that I'm also planning on trying out some Xtreme bullets after A4 and the Iowa Sectional match. I've heard good things, and the price difference is----significant.
So, I'll let you know how it works for me, too.
(And yeah, for volume shooting, reloading saves you a ton of money over buying new.)
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So for the unedubukated (me) ....what would you say it costs to reload 9x19 per 100 rounds....ballpark ....
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So for the unedubukated (me) ....what would you say it costs to reload 9x19 per 100 rounds....ballpark ....
$13 per 100 currently for me
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Thanks abbafandr..... I can currently buy NEW 115 gr FMJ for around $18.50/100 ..... so the $5.50 difference/100 in time to do the reloading is what I need to consider
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It's all about buying at the right time. I got frangible bullets from midway when they were $50/1k so I bought quite a bit. Saves quite a bit playing sales and buying in bulk.
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Thanks abbafandr..... I can currently buy NEW 115 gr FMJ for around $18.50/100 ..... so the $5.50 difference/100 in time to do the reloading is what I need to consider
How many rounds do you shoot and how many calibers?
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tstuart34 , sticking with the topic caliber (9x19) ... I mentioned 115 gr FMJ. I likely shoot 1500-2000 rounds per year... so using my math (even if Al Gore fuzzy math), my cost would be $100-150 more for factory new... I think I figured that correctly. This pertains to my question of time involved in reloading this number of rounds (all components ready to go). How many hours in reloading the aforementioned numbers?
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tstuart34 , sticking with the topic caliber (9x19) ... I mentioned 115 gr FMJ. I likely shoot 1500-2000 rounds per year... so using my math (even if Al Gore fuzzy math), my cost would be $100-150 more for factory new... I think I figured that correctly. This pertains to my question of time involved in reloading this number of rounds (all components ready to go). How many hours in reloading the aforementioned numbers?
Well, for me, I can reload 100 rounds in about 5.5 minutes. (Yes, I'm geeky enough to have actually tested that. :) ) I could probably do it faster, as 1200 an hour isn't past what my machine can do, but I take the time to check each one for proper powder levels and don't really rush.
So, at my relaxed rate, I could easily reload your entire yearly ammo budget in under two hours.
Note: I have a Dillon Super 1050 and an electric primer tube refiller, so that speeds things up quite a bit. But back when I used a basic Dillon 550, I could still have reloaded all your ammo for the year in under 5 hours, and I used to reload SLOWLY compared to most people.
Since I can make ammo to my exact specifications (bullet weight, velocity, power factor, and OAL), it is definitely worth it. I don't even shoot 115 gr bullets any more, since my SD ammo is 124 or 147 gr JHP also, so the way the gun feels when I practice is pretty similar to when I shoot my SD ammo, and I know the gun will feed properly and be more accurate than I am when I practice.
I'm not going to get that shooting bulk 115gr ammo from someplace, factory or not. (WWB and Federal, to give two common examples, are MUCH more likely to be different from lot to lot, and Federal often won't make Minor power factor for USPSA, even out of a G34.)
I also shoot a lot more than 2000 rounds a year, so that means I save a lot more money, too. (Well, actually, I still probably spend the same amount, I just get to shoot a lot more for it.)
At 2000 rounds a year, it _might_ be worth it to buy a Dillon 650, but you won't break even for a few years. After that, though, you'll save money every year. Think of it this way: that $100 would have bought you another 700 rounds, which comes to 35% more rounds per year that you could have shot for the same amount of money.
....if I was rich, I'd just have Atlanta Arms and Ammo send me 10,000 rounds a month, and call it good. Failing that, though, I reload. :)
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tstuart34 , sticking with the topic caliber (9x19) ... I mentioned 115 gr FMJ. I likely shoot 1500-2000 rounds per year... so using my math (even if Al Gore fuzzy math), my cost would be $100-150 more for factory new... I think I figured that correctly. This pertains to my question of time involved in reloading this number of rounds (all components ready to go). How many hours in reloading the aforementioned numbers?
With my Dillon XL650 I can reload 1,000 rounds in just over an hour. This does NOT include prep time such as filling primer tubes (2 minutes per 100) and cleaning brass (depends on method but it is mostly hit start and walk away for the duration).
Fly
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I was just running though and with a lee turret press (economical) I have read ppl doing around 125+/- per hour. Prep is 15min per hundred. Until I get my new tumbler built :)
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I was just running though and with a lee turret press (economical) I have read ppl doing around 125+/- per hour. Prep is 15min per hundred. Until I get my new tumbler built :)
When I made the decision to reload, I was determined not to let it become a whole new and nearly separate hobby. Some people spend a disproportionate amount of time reloading compared to time shooting. Sometimes it is due to budget constraints, and other times it is because they enjoy the science/details of reloading as much or more than shooting what they have made. I do enjoy the technical aspects of reloading. At least to the point where I understand the process enough to produce a round that is safe and meets my needs of accuracy, recoil, cleanliness, etc. Beyond that, I just want to get the reloading done so I can shoot more.
Fly
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When I made the decision to reload, I was determined not to let it become a whole new and nearly separate hobby. Some people spend a disproportionate amount of time reloading compared to time shooting. Sometimes it is due to budget constraints, and other times it is because they enjoy the science/details of reloading as much or more than shooting what they have made. I do enjoy the technical aspects of reloading. At least to the point where I understand the process enough to produce a round that is safe and meets my needs of accuracy, recoil, cleanliness, etc. Beyond that, I just want to get the reloading done so I can shoot more.
Fly
I use a Hornady LNL so far I have not found a ton of joy sitting pulling the handle of the press. I haven't done any large runs yet since I am still in the development stages with my stuff but I would love to have enough spent brass to be able to load a years worth a ammo during the winter and shoot all year without taking the cover off the press.
I would like to be able to find a decent used single stage for preping. 9mm prep isn't that bad but I am always looking at ways to speed up any process as cheap as possible. Its all the "lean" training I have had to sit though. :laugh:
As far as you OP Fly. My dad and I both started reloading extreme bullets recently I did a lot of searching for the best deal and they seem to be right there. I haven't got many down the tube yet but he has several hundred 124gr FN for his 357sig and 40cal(???gr) and the 55gr 223. They seem to doing well so far. Accuracy seems to be good enough need to do a bit more testing.
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Thanks for the feedback and education. Time to ponder ......., then act .....
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I would like to be able to find a decent used single stage for preping. 9mm prep isn't that bad but I am always looking at ways to speed up any process as cheap as possible. Its all the "lean" training I have had to sit though. :laugh:
Other than cleaning the brass, what prep do you do?
(I am wondering if I am missing something.)
I grab the brass I've found on the range, dump it in the tumbler with some media, walk off and play on the computer for awhile, then come back and dump the cleaning media out of the brass. That's all the prep I do.
My press (even when I used a 550) resized, de-primed, belled, put the powder in, pushed the bullet in, crimped, then resized the whole thing one more time---all at the same time. In other words, none of those steps add time to the process, as they all occur simultaneously. Pulling one out and doing it separately wouldn't do anything but add more time.
Is there something else I should be doing before I put the brass in my press?
I note: This is for 9mm pistol ammo for general practice, USPSA, and IDPA shooting. If this was rifle ammo for precision shooting, that might be different. If it was pistol ammo for 50-yard bullseye shooting, that might be different. But---for general 9mm ammo, what other prep is necessary?
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jthapkido....thoughts on this Dillon model .... http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/8/pkg_id/1 (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/8/pkg_id/1)
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jthapkido....thoughts on this Dillon model .... http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/8/pkg_id/1 (http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/8/pkg_id/1)
From Brian Enos website FAQS (http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillonfaqs.html#SqD550 (http://www.brianenos.com/pages/dillonfaqs.html#SqD550))...
"The SqDeal or the 550?
The 550 will load virtually all pistol and rifle calibers, whereas the Square Deal will only load straight-walled pistol cases.
I almost always recommend the 550 for your first reloading purchase..."
Read more at the link.
Fly
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Other than cleaning the brass, what prep do you do?
(I am wondering if I am missing something.)
Not missing anything I deprime prior to wet tumbling. For several reasons I like having clean and shiny brass in the pockets and when you wet tumble you risk corroding the spent primers in place. Is it needed? No but I like the looks of like new brass. If I had a bullet finder it would speed things up when depriming single stage would be nice to have just to keep things simple. Its a added step I choose to take
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If Xtreme bullets meet your needs, they are currently priced quite aggressively and would be a great buy. In other words, STOCK UP.
I stocked up on Montana Gold when their 9mm bullets were running about 7.5 cents/bullet. At 10-15 cents/bullet, I will simply go back to cast lead bullets.
If some one can convince me that they are actually getting the same accuracy at 50 yards with plated bullets as they can get with jacketed, I may go back and test a few plated bullets again.
I expect at some point, Montana Gold may find that their current high prices can not be sustained and prices will have to drop (unless copper/lead prices go up and all bullet prices go up).
If only PowerValley could get Zero bullets in stock at their current "pricing," I know where I would be ordering bullets.
Note: Roze Dist. does have some Zero bullets in stock.
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If Xtreme bullets meet your needs, they are currently priced quite aggressively and would be a great buy. In other words, STOCK UP.
I stocked up on Montana Gold when their 9mm bullets were running about 7.5 cents/bullet. At 10-15 cents/bullet, I will simply go back to cast lead bullets.
If some one can convince me that they are actually getting the same accuracy at 50 yards with plated bullets as they can get with jacketed, I may go back and test a few plated bullets again.
I expect at some point, Montana Gold may find that their current high prices can not be sustained and prices will have to drop (unless copper/lead prices go up and all bullet prices go up).
If only PowerValley could get Zero bullets in stock at their current "pricing," I know where I would be ordering bullets.
Note: Roze Dist. does have some Zero bullets in stock.
I have only shot the X-Treme out to 25 yards since that is typically the farthest I will shoot them. I shot off of a rest with iron sights. No spectacular grouping to report, but they did all hit well inside a paper plate. Without putting the gun in a vice, that's as good as I can test them. Though I'm betting the spread would have been quite small if you took me out of the equation.
Fly
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8 cents vs. 10 cents per bullet. For me, the Montana bullets are worth it for the extra accuracy. If the Xtremes are comparable in your gun, the savings are well worth it.
I would also think that Xtreme, keeping their prices down near cast lead prices, may be a short term thing and stocking up might be a good idea (unless you think that all bullet prices are high due to temporary demand).
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I picked up some once fired 9mm brass that was military surplus with crimped primers. I read that others were able to reload it without removing the crimp, so I thought I would try it. Most primers went in easy, but a couple made quite the crunching noise when I seated it. I had heard/felt this before, so NOW I know what was causing it. Regardless, they all worked.
During this trial, I realized that the soft(er) X-Treme bullet tips were being slightly deformed by my (seating?) die. I don't remember seeing this before on my earlier reloads with these bullets. Has anyone else experienced this? Does it cause any issues with the accuracy of the bullet? Are the military surplus cases just more stout causing more resistance than standard factory cases?
Fly
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8 cents vs. 10 cents per bullet. For me, the Montana bullets are worth it for the extra accuracy. If the Xtremes are comparable in your gun, the savings are well worth it.
I would also think that Xtreme, keeping their prices down near cast lead prices, may be a short term thing and stocking up might be a good idea (unless you think that all bullet prices are high due to temporary demand).
I don't plan to shoot them out to 50 yards, but if you want 10 or 20 to reload and try out, I would be happy to give them to you. Your test results would add some interesting data to this thread. Since I don't have any baseline to test against, you would be better qualified to say if the X-Treme performed as well at this distance.
Fly