NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: Oleshome on February 24, 2013, 03:58:19 PM
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So, I finally got all the necessary equipment AND components to attempt my first reloads. I wanted to start with hand gun loads but no bullets. Anyhow, Started slow with my new Hornady LNL and after endless tinkering finally got the process to function as expected albeit slowly. After consulting 3 books, the mfg websites and a bunch of forums I settle on two different loads for two powders I have. On one load I did just 10 rounds of H322 - 22.5gr, Winchester primers (SR) and Nosler Ballistic ST. I was kinda dubious about this one since there were so many conflicting points of load data and commentary with .223. The second I felt better about and did 20 rounds of BL-C(2) - 25gr, Winchester primers(SR) and Nosler Ballistic ST. Went to Big Shots and sighted in the weapon with factory rounds first. Then grabbed my magazine of 20rds and bang bang. Good groups all within and inch or two, not FtF, no FtE. So happy happy. Go to the first batch of 10, get through the first 6 with no issue and am feeling good. Round 7 - click. Ejected the cartridge and the bullet is pushed into the case nearly to the point of falling inside. I'm thinking a seating issue. Chamber the next round - click. Same problem. Ok, so I put in a magazine with factory ammo - Click. Same thing. Oh uh. So i'm looking at the rounds and the range master say that I probably need to do some polishing just before the lans and grooves start. So I leave the range go home, strip the weapon and HOLY Crap. There's a bullet stuck in the barrel about 3 inches. SQUIB. I put 3, that's right 3 other rounds in behind it. Now, not only am I dumb but apparently very lucky today. Btw, I went thru the powder drops like 20 times before I started the press I was so worried about squibs... Long story shorter I tapped the bullet out with a cleaning rod and rubber mallet. I think I'll stick with the BL-C(2) until I can get some Varget or H335. Ole
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wow. that could have been bad.
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oh so lucky and glad it didn't turn out like it normally does :(
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The bullet stuck in your barrel has to be a squib that you did not recognize (H322 round #6?) so I reckon the one squib (#6) had insufficient powder.
Did it extract #6 and load a new round from the mag (#7)
If it did, the bullet had to travel down the barrel far enough to expose the gas feed hole to provide pressure to the bolt carrier. Then the bullet would have been stuck in the muzzle end and would not have damaged the freshly loaded rounds by pushing the bullet back into the case
If the bullet was stuck 3 inches in from the chamber, then there would not have been any gas pressure at the feed hole to operate the action, and therefore a new round would not have been chambered.
So the question is...how did the 3 damaged rounds get into the chamber?
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As someone who is just gathering components and equipment for the first time, this frightens me.
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It looks like someone needs to do some knee mail.
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@ Dan, Right i'm sure it was a squib #6. I'm thinking you're exactly correct in that it didn't have enough powder despite the fact I really tried to be careful. It #6 did extract a spent casing which is why I didn't recognize the issue right away and #7 chamber. That was the first to misfire. The bullet itself wasn't anywhere near the muzzle end, though. I didn't measure exactly where in the barrel it was but not far maybe 3-4 inches maybe a bit less - seemed like more than just a couple inches. Far enough in that I had to use all three rods in my cleaning rod but still had 6-7 inches sticking out of the muzzle which is where I tapped the handle to push it back out. It was close enough to be seen looking down the barrel with a flashlight. The next attempts definitely chambered though, 3x to be exact. All in all i'm very fortunate and yeah some kneeling thanks is totally in order. :)
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How did you not hear the difference?
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It went bang just like all the others and we were at an indoor range. All the lanes were full and lots of other's shooting too. I'm sure it was less loud probably significantly but with ear plugs in and headphones on I didn't catch it.
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It #6 did extract a spent casing which is why I didn't recognize the issue right away and #7 chamber.
If the bullet was stuck just beyond the chamber, I wonder just how there was any gas to operate the action.
You are really lucky that upon the next cartridge firing, it did not grenade your rifle
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Sounds like you need to crimp to keep the bullets seated. I had the same thing happen with my first AR reloads, so I picked up a Lee Factory Crimp Die. That solved the problem.
I'm glad you lucked out today...that could've been very bad.
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Crimping IS NOT a fix all for insufficient neck tension.
If bullets can be pushed back into the cartridge on feeding, there is an issue with the sizer ball on the full length resizer die.
Good neck tension requires an inside the neck dimension after resizing of .002-.003" under the diameter of the bullet (.221-.222") Bullet should be .224"
If you have a .003" interference fit you will not need any crimp (with the exception full auto use)
If you can insert a bullet into a resized case and then push the bullet into the neck with pressure against a wood block, your neck tension is too low to maintain COL on feeding
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Crimping IS NOT a fix all for insufficient neck tension.
If bullets can be pushed back into the cartridge on feeding, there is an issue with the sizer ball on the full length resizer die.
Good neck tension requires an inside the neck dimension after resizing of .002-.003" under the diameter of the bullet (.221-.222") Bullet should be .224"
If you have a .003" interference fit you will not need any crimp (with the exception full auto use)
If you can insert a bullet into a resized case and then push the bullet into the neck with pressure against a wood block, your neck tension is too low to maintain COL on feeding
I understand that. I had 1 round where the bullet pushed back into the casing and decided a light crimp would give me a little piece of mind. The measured inside dimension of my cases runs anywhere from 0.220''-0.222'', so you're right in where I probably don't need to crimp...but like I said, it gives me a little piece of mind.
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Just as long as we don't rely on a crimp to overcome a sizing error, I am fine with it. I use the Lee FCD too when I want to apply a crimp
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Can you clarify that Dan? I don't understand what you by "issue with the sizer ball." Remember i'm a newbie to reloading so I may be missing something totally obvious. I was really really careful to follow the instructions with the die, online videos from Hornady and numerous others on how to set up the sizing/decapping die. Even so, I've probably missed something and i'd like to recheck.
Ole
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The sizer ball resizes the neck when it pulls back out of the case.
The die squeezes the neck down on the downstroke to about .219-.220" then in the upstroke the ball is pulled back through to set the final neck size of .221-.222"
The problem could be that the sizer ball is too big and leaves the neck dimension .224" or the same size as the bullet...result? no tension to hold the bullet in place.
This is not an adjustable thing. It is either right or it is wrong. I would measure a few necks after the full length resize operation.
If they are too big (.224") then your sizer ball is defective ( too large ) If it is just a bit too big they can be polished down to the correct size.
As you can see .001" can be the difference between go and no go
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I would also measure some of your bullets to make sure they are not undersized
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Just as long as we don't rely on a crimp to overcome a sizing error, I am fine with it. I use the Lee FCD too when I want to apply a crimp
+1000
You cannot compensate for bad neck sizing by crimping, you are just asking for MAJOR trouble doing so.
Measure your bullets with a GOOD digital micrometer that measures to the thousandths (.000) they should be .224
If they are the you need to take your sizing die apart and measure the expander ball and make sure it is .223 or a little less.
The way the die works when you resize / decap the brass is this:
As the case is pushed into the die the expander ball passes through the case mouth, beyond the neck and into the case - the neck is then compressed down to about .220 ID. As the case is being pulled out of the die the expander ball passes through the neck and will expand it to about .221 - .223.
I have to ask, when you resized your cases did you make sure to lube the inside of the case neck? If not the extra drag created by the expander ball in a "dry" case neck can actually open the necks too much.
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So, I did measure the Nosler bullets i'm using. I looked at 20 and every one came out at 0.221. I'll have to open other boxes after work since i ordered 1000 of these. Yes, i did lube the interior of the case necks too. I used Hornady One Shot Case lube to spray them all before I dumped them into the case feeder. (http://)
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Here is the pics of the rounds that failed. Notice one of them is NOT a reloaded round.
(http://)
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Wow that might be a bad batch. .221 is not right.
Here is a Hornady .224 55gr FMJWC in the mic.
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Well crap. Hopefully this is just one bad box and not the whole damn case of 1000. Otherwise, i'll have to throw them really hard at the target not sure my arms that good anymore. Getting old... Makes me wonder how the other 26 worked then too.
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How does any of this explain the factory round that did the same thing though? I can understand the reloaded ones but I tried one from the factory. When that pushed in too I knew for sure something bad was up.
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Could it be that the bullet that was sitting in your barrel wasn't even far enough down the barrel to allow the next round to be seated in the chamber all the way? Then when you cycled it, the next round hit that bullet and forced the bullet from the next round into the case? The next round hitting this not letting the BCG to move all the way forward and lock into place, thus not allowing it to function properly when you pulled the trigger?
Are there primer strikes on those 3 rounds? I'm guessing not.
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If you are shooting an AR make sure that if the upper has M4 feed ramp cuts that the barrel also has them. This issue pops up on ARFCOM now and then.
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I'm thinking that CCKyle may have hit on it. I'm not sure how far past the chamber the squib was. I should have measured it but at the time i was far more concerned about getting the bullet out. That would explain why I didnt get a much worse result.
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I'm not sure about the feed ramps. I'll have to check. I'm really thinking the squib kept the other rounds from chambering fully. that theory just makes sense considering the results. Now i'm curious though..
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Well crap. Hopefully this is just one bad box and not the whole damn case of 1000. Otherwise, i'll have to throw them really hard at the target not sure my arms that good anymore. Getting old... Makes me wonder how the other 26 worked then too.
Take a picture of the box for us, with all of the details on it. Such as ".224 FMJ RN-BT"
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Can do once i get home.
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If you are shooting an AR make sure that if the upper has M4 feed ramp cuts that the barrel also has them. This issue pops up on ARFCOM now and then.
If that is the issue, why doesnt the mil have the same problems?
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If that is the issue, why doesnt the mil have the same problems?
I would guess that since the military is using new ammunition, all the little variables that can cause this are cooked out from the start. The projectiles, cases, crimps, etc are all correct. The absence of M4 feed ramps probably doesn't generate the issues as often for them as a result. Since we're picking up used casings, we've got to look for them, and weed them out ourselves.
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That is my point. The feed ramps arent the problem, the ammunition is. Sure the feed ramps can help, but there is no way around making the ammo correct from the start.
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I am going to venture a guess and say that cckyle had it right. The squib was to close to allow the next round to chamber completely and the bullet was smashing into it. That would explain the factory round being smashed in. If there are no primer strikes, then it wasn't chambered correctly/completely, and that in turn saved at the very least, your weapon, and maybe even yourself.
When I reloaded my first 100 .223, I checked EVERY measurement on EVERY case/completed round. If it wasn't spot on, it wasn't used, or it was fixed...
Glad everything worked out for you, and you have all your parts intact!
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That is my point. The feed ramps arent the problem, the ammunition is. Sure the feed ramps can help, but there is no way around making the ammo correct from the start.
You weren't paying attention. If you use an M4 feed ramp upper and a non-M4 feed ramp barrel you can AND WILL have this happen. I didn't say that WAS the problem, but one thing to check. Sheesh!
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Just coldly analysing what happened. Did you see a bullet strike with round #6? Since I don't know for sure what weapon you were using, I will assume an A.R. type. Did the weapon cycle on its own or did you have to cycle round #7 into the chamber? Once you have to manually cycle a semi auto, you should stop and check out why. You would have then found the stuck bullet. I believe that you are using the wrong size bullet. .221 is a size more commonly used in rounds such as the .220 Russian that used to be used in bulls eye type competition. I also believe that you had a load with a primer only and no powder. (When I am loading initial rounds, I always look in each case to make sure there is powder in them) This pushed the bullet into contact with the rifling. The next round (even the factory round) then hit the stuck bullet and was pushed back into the case. .224 is the correct size, but you probably would have had the same problem with a squib load.
Again, not picking on anyone, just analysing what could have gone wrong and how to correct it.
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@ Sidearm1, No, I didnt see a bullet strike. Since the bullet was in the barrel I couldnt have. At this point after talking about it so much I'm no longer sure whether I cycled it or not. I'm thinking I did. I've had occasional FTE's before so its not totally a shock if/when it happens. Honestly, if i have an FTE I don't habitually check the barrel. Given the situation clearly this time I should have. I'll have to check the boxes again but i now for a fact that when i purchased the bullets they were sold to me as .224. However, i didnt mic them before loading. Another lesson learned. I do know there was powder in the round though obviously not enough. I've looked at the other rounds and the primers were not impacted which is why I still have a complete weapon and my various parts. You're not the first to chastise me for not looking into each casing either. No offense taken. My point behind even creating the topic was so others might learn from my mistake and from the comments as folks analyzed and observed.
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Squib prevention should be almost a certainty if certain steps are followed.
Visually inspect all components, measure a sampling of the bullets.
1 Cases cleaned, decapped, sized and trimmed (if needed).
2 Case mouths are expanded if required.
3 Cases are inspected and primed.
4 Cases are charged then put into a loading block. Drop the powder, set case in loading the loading block. Once the loading block is full visually inspect each case - If a case has little or no powder, or way too much compared to the others you will be able to see that. Under no conditions does a case get put into the loading block without a powder charge.
5 Bullets are seated and COL measured.
6 If you decided to crimp them do so after measuring a sampling of your loads.
I realize that this will not work for people using a progressive press - and it is the number one reason I'll stick with my single stage.
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I said i'd post a pic of the box of bullets I used. The one on the left is the one I used. The box on the right is the second purchase I got. Below are the links to their product pages. Btw, both mic out at .221.
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Ballistic-Tip-Varmint.aspx (http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Ballistic-Tip-Varmint.aspx)
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Combined-Technology.aspx (http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Combined-Technology.aspx)
(http://)
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second bullet from Nosler
(http://)
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Yeah...that's not good. I would check every bullet in both of those boxes and then call/email Nosler.
I just got a couple boxes of Accubonds in the mail for my 243 and will definitely check everyone before it gets seated.
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If I were you I'd contact Nosler's customer service and see what they have to say. Have you tried mic'ing something else so you can prove to them that your mic is working properly?
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yes, that thought occurred to me. question is, mic what? not sure I have something that is an exact known length..
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Maybe someone else in your hometown may have some calipers and would be willing to mic your bullets with their calipers.
Maybe try to pull a bullet from a factory load and check it.
Just an idea.
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ok well, being a network/computer guy I went back to my roots I guess. Pulled the batteries from the mic and "rebooted." presto! .2235
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Use the projectile from a factory round.
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well duh, factory round. slaps head. doesn't matter now. think I've got it... still. shoulda thought of that
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But, problem still exists............
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I went down and measured a dozen of my Redding die prepped .223 brass.
Average of the resized necks is .220"
I also measured a dozen Hornady 55gr SPP w/cannelure
All measured exactly .224"
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here's the pic..
(http://)
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May I suggest that you measure the new bullets with a second caliper.
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brass are fine I believe..
(http://)
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I am going to check with a second micrometer though. Bottom line is not enough powder lead to a squib. The next rounds I attempted to chamber pushed the bullet into the case. The primers were never impacted so no bang. Lesson learned. I won't be doing more progressively till the powder cop I ordered comes in. I'll just charge them and put'em into reloading blocks so I can visually check them.
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So it may be safe to conclude that a squib, forced out by a primer only ( little or no powder) was stuck in the lands, just beyond the throat.
And that the subsequent failures to fire (thank God) were caused by said squib interfering with the full chambering of the following rounds and forced the bullets back into the case upon contact with the bullet lodged in the throat.
If we agree that that is an accurate description of the failure, I have just one question...
Where is the powder that should have been in that case? I would break down the remainder of the questionable lot and test the powder weights for possible double charge
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Fair question but no lot left. It was a batch of 10 only with the failure occurring on round 6. I ruined two rounds and I can't find the tenth. I think its rolling around in the cab of my truck from when we left Big Shots. The other batch I did - the second - was 20 and all fired with no issues whatsoever.
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I had a friend who did the exact same thing that you did.... I won't say who. He told me to tell you to send that barrel/upper/rifle back to the manufacturer and have them inspect it. My friend did that and they found the barrel to be bulged and a number of other issues.
It took me a better part of a year to get the thing back...err my friend, but it wasn't worth risking life/limb years down the road.
You got really lucky. The mag blew out of my rifle and the rear side of the casing burst. Pieces of brass lodged into the extractor/firing pin. I can't imagine why that didn't happen in your case.
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Your friend is right. I was already thinking i'd buy a new barrel.
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ok well, being a network/computer guy I went back to my roots I guess. Pulled the batteries from the mic and "rebooted." presto! .2235
This, and the shenanigans I've had with digital scales is why I use analog tools for reloading.
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ok well, being a network/computer guy I went back to my roots I guess. Pulled the batteries from the mic and "rebooted." presto! .2235
I am a machinist and use digital calipers all the time.
Just to be clear....when you pulled the batteries, did you reset the "zero"? That requires cleaning the measuring surfaces of the calipers, closing the surfaces until completely touching and pressing the zero button. After setting zero, the calipers should always read 0.0000 when the measuring surfaces are cleaned and closed together. It is a good habit to close the calipers to ensure they read zero. Some calipers have absolute settings and it is important to know how the calipers are set (to zero or some absolute number). It appears your calipers do not have an absolute setting but could have been off for some reason (didn't read zero when closed on measuring surfaces).
If you don't spend around $100 for a 6" caliper, don't expect it to be very accurate or durable. I have had very good luck with Mitutoyo Absolute calipers. Even the good calipers are only accurate to .001" on the scale (the .0005" is not usually meaningful or accurate for any purpose).
I have access to micrometer standards (very accurate lengths of steel bar used to set micrometers to zero or check zero) and machinist gage blocks (very accurate pieces of steel used to set or check accurate measurements). Lacking these tools, a few cheap ball bearings (which are usually pretty accurate and hard) can be checked, bagged and saved to occasionally check your calipers.
It will be important to check bullet and case size as well as reloading tooling to realize where the problem may be. There can be a lot of variables in reloading. Simple things like tool settings or brass thickness can easily trip a person up until you learn what to look for and disipline yourself to check everything.
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Just a speculation here, but the bullet stuck in the bore is what caused your setback issues. How easily did they chamber? Were you getting "clicks" (when you pulled the trigger) because the rifle was possibly out of battery (bolt not seated all the way) since the cartridge would not seat properly because it was hitting the bullet in the barrel? The hammer will still fall but usually not protrude the firing pin since the bolt is not cammed into the lugs. Did you attempt to seat it with the foward assist? Something major was missed here, either from your reloading or operation of the weapon. Glad you or the rifle was not damaged.
I can almost be certain that if it was a squib round and it only went past the throat that it would not cycle an AR15. The charging handle was pulled to the rear to eject the spent casing. It has to have gas to cycle back to the bolt carrier key which then cycles the bolt carrier group and completes your cycle of operation. Many times an AR15 that is a single shot is due to the key being loose and that is even a full powered properly loaded round firing as it should. It just won't cycle from chamber pressure/recoil. But crazy things have happened, I wasn't there.
Do you have any rounds from that same batch that you did not fire? Check the tension on the bullet in the neck. If they can be pulled out or pushed in by hand you have issues with the sizing process.
There are incidents out there where people using the plastic bullet dummy rounds during their live fire exercises will sometimes break a piece of the plastic bullet off in the chamber. After the immediate action, the live round entering the chamber will not seat. That is a cue to stop and check the bore. One instance the shooter and yes THE FIREARM INSTRUCTOR forced the live round into the chamber by beating on the forward assist to seat the round. Well they blew up a rifle because the bore was blocked. Lesson here is never force a cartridge to seat, it's not going for a reason. The forward assist is to seat a dirty rifles bolt not to force something into the chamber. Not saying that's what you did, just FYI.
Be safe.
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Sorry, I just now went through and read all the responses. I did not realize there were 3 pages to this thread when I started my response.
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So it looks like the bottom line is a squib - most likely because of a round with too light of a charge - left a bullet in the bore. Thankfully the bullet didn't travel far enough for you to chamber a round with the bolt going to full battery. There is an angel somewhere looking out for you. It's a tough call on the barrel. The pressure had to go somewhere - if you were lucky the bullet never went fully into the bore and the gasses blew past the bullet before it fully engaged the rifling. Worst case it damaged the barrel. Did you save the squib bullet and case? You should be able to tell by looking at the bullet if any gasses went past it. If you saved the case is the primer bulged or the case bulged / cracked anywhere? If the primer looks OK and the bullet shows signs of gas burns then your barrel might be OK. I don't know if there is a machine shop or gunsmith around that can check the bore or MPI the barrel.
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If there was not enough pressure to grenade the out of battery cases, there is no way it had pressure spikes that could have bulged the barrel
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If there was not enough pressure to grenade the out of battery cases, there is no way it had pressure spikes that could have bulged the barrel
True enough but we aren't talking about the out of battery rounds, we are talking about the squib round.
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True enough but we aren't talking about the out of battery rounds, we are talking about the squib round
That round did not have any pressure either, thus the stuck bullet in the throat
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Well if nothing else I know how to stir up some discussion. :)
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That round did not have any pressure either, thus the stuck bullet in the throat
So you've inspected the projectile, the case and the bore? NO? You are assuming that everything is fine, which is a very dangerous and foolish stand to take given the subject matter. He should have the barrel inspected. Any advise other than that is bad advice.
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So you've inspected the projectile, the case and the bore? NO? You are assuming that everything is fine, which is a very dangerous and foolish stand to take given the subject matter. He should have the barrel inspected. Any advise other than that is bad advice.
Any advice is worth what you pay for it.
What excessive high pressure event do you think caused this damage?