NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: whatsit on March 17, 2013, 04:34:31 PM
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... is the one you don't ask, right? I hope so.
I'm looking at getting my first press. I think I'd like to start with the Hornady Lock'n Load Progressive... once I can find it in stock somewhere.
I'm going to need 9mm Luger and .223 dies (along with the shell plate for each). Anyway, I'm wondering if any brand of die will work or if they have to be Hornady? Can you mix and match brands of presses and dies? Isn't the diameter / threading on dies different between brands? I understand I'll need Lock'n Load bushings for the dies, but I think they only make one size and threading.
That's more than one potentially dumb question, I guess. But, any help you can offer would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading!
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Whatsit, This is your first press,correct? I would strongly recommend getting a single stage first,such as a LEE classic cast or any other makers single stage. Much easier to learn on and set-up. If you do much reloading you're always going to need a single stage press anyway.FWIW--Mike.
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I have an RCBS single stage, but use LEE dies/shell holders. I can't speak to whether it is universal between manufacturers, or between single stage/progressive.
However, I have been told to use the same brand shell holder as the die. I've never experimented otherwise.
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Any die that is the standard 7/8 die set will work in most presses.
That said, I will second the notion that you start with a single stage press. There is alot going on with a progressive and if you are playing with fire (literally) it is strongly urged to pay attention so you don't get burned.
Just one double load or short load can make a very baaad day for weapon or at worst your bugger pickers/face.
I have the RCBS Single stage and it is fantastic. I can go from start to finish with 100 .223 rounds in about 3 hours, and that is taking my time for accurate powder throws (which is NOT as easy at it sounds), accurate seating depth, and COL.
Take your time and enjoy it, it is far more rewarding than losing part or all of an appendage.
After you are familiar with loading and can spot the short/hot cases maybe its time to move to a progressive...
Just my .02
Have fun and be safe!
(P.S. I have an extra set of RCBS .223 dies I may be willing to get rid of).
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All current presses from major manufacturers take standard 7/8-14 threads, with the exception of ones meant for 50 BMG and other large bodied dies. My Lee Classic Cast has a threaded insert which allows both standard and large dies. Some older presses, such as the ones from Herters, used different threads. As long as you're not garage sale shopping you probably won't run into that.
The Lock & Load bushings take standard thread dies, and then the bushing itself locks into the press. This allows you to do a quick change of dies without having to readjust each time. Any brand of die will work with any standard press.
I also agree, get a single stage for your first one. You'll always need a single stage even if you eventually go progressive.
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I'm getting started in reloading also, whatsit. I picked a Lee turret press. I like the fact that each die can adjusted and left, and that it can be used in single stage mode until I get the feel for each step.
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Yep, as has been mentioned any brand of dies will work (7/8"-14 iirc), however the shell holders may be press specific. If the press your looking at takes the quick change bushings, I suggest you get at least a half dozen extras...for starters..lol
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I have a newer Lee Classic cast iron breech lock press. It is single stage, not a very high price for the quality. I am a machinist and the Lee deluxe Pistol Dies for .45 and 9mm I have been using are outstanding quality and finish. The deluxe die sets have the carbide inserts that will not wear out, pretty much not affected by dirt (but clean your brass anyway). There is an extra Factory Crimp Die that sizes auto load cartridges to a standard size (so I don't use the crimp on the seat die). I use a Lee universal decapping die to remove primers from all brass since it doesn't size the brass and grind any dirt into range recovered brass. After the brass is clean, the other dies don't suffer any abuse so the carbide should last even longer/nicer finish. The breech lock is nice since you use adapters (Similar to Hornady lock-n-load but not compatible...different locking shapes) to hold each tool in a set position, and it takes only a 1/6 turn to change a tool out. When put back, a tool is already set (bullet seating will need to be checked and set if bullet shape/brand etc. is changed). This makes the single stage press a little easier to deal with initially. Otherwise you have to screw each die in and adust each time the die is used. The size, bell, and final size/crimp can usually stay set. Reloading is just done in batches where a number (25, 50, 100, etc.) where all the brass is (decapped and cleaned...my process), decapped/sized, belled, powder filled, bullet seated, factory size/crimp as separate operations. Of course for your accuracy loads, some different processes may apply...a reloading book is your friend and has all the details.
In contrast, Hornady was (is?) making their die inserts with TiN (Titanium Nitride) plating. A very tough coating used in industrial cutting tools. However, my experience is that TiN is often put over crappy tooling and results in a quick tool breakdown. With quality machine tooling, where a high quality carbide is coated with TiN, the tool lasts longer and takes more abuse. On crappy tooling (Chinese) where a lower quality base material is used, TiN is tossed on to cover up the base poor quality resulting is low usage before failure. Unfortunately, except for well recognized machinist tooling, cheap TiN coated stuff should get a weary critique. Not knowing the base material of Hornady dies, I would be concerned about using their dies...maybe they are OK...just my unfortunate experience of having tooling covered in TiN to disquise a poor tool...the price is often a giveaway...not so much in reloading dies.
Check to see if your auto press of choice has the option to disengage the auto part and be used as a single stage. That can make introduction easier, adapt to accuracy loads and later pump out higher volume when everything is figured out.
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Just to add to above.
Carbide is a very hard tooling metal. It is typically used for lathe and mill tool bits that have to suffer high pressure and heat in metal machining operations. Carbide is usually very brittle and sharp tooling is easily chipped, but in the inserts used in reloading dies, there is nothing subject to chipping abuse and carbide will be very resistent to damage. Brass will never hurt carbide. Dirt on the other hand may not hurt carbide but will end up being forced into the brass when passed through a die. The Lee universal de-capping die doesn't size brass and only pushes out the primer. This universal de-capping makes for an extra reloading step, but you don't press any dirt into your dies or brass minimizing scratching or damage of either brass or dies. The Lee depriming dies (both universal and in the sets) have a punch on a collet that is designed to give if the rod is jammed into something that will not move. The rod can usually be reset or are $2.00 to replace (lifetime replacement...but postage and trouble makes having a spare a good idea...}have pressed out thousands of primers without fail...and occasionally hit rocks that got inside a case without hurting the rod buy using good judgement when an obstruction is felt (or a berdan primer gets in the mix of brass).
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Wow, thanks for the great info, everyone. I've used a regular press. I was impressed with how long everything took. It just seemed like a seriously slow process. However, I do see the reason for the recommendations for non-progressive presses. I'll think about it...
If I got an RCBS die set for 9mm, is there going to be a mismatch between them and the pistol cartridge shell plate for a non-RCBS press? A seating die would seem like it would be sensitive to a problem like this, but again -- I haven't seen a lot of presses and don't know what the standard type of adjustments for a die are.
Anyway, thanks for the great info, everyone!
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whatsit: well, what was done at the reloading clinic was deliberately slow. Safety first, etc.
When you get the hang of everything, a single stage press and knowledgeable person can crank out 100-150 rounds an hour. The key to single stage loading is to set up assembly lines and do the same operation on 50-200 cases at a time (ie: sizing all of them, charging all of them, seating all of them, basically a single step you repeat ad nauseam before moving on to the next step).
When I started into reloading a few years back, it was on a Hornady LNL AP. I felt comfortable with my ability to pay attention to everything and such to produce ammo safely. Some folks might have a better comfort zone with a turret press or starting out on a single stage. All depends on YOU. Something as noted by Oleshome in another thread is to make sure your powder cases are charged when using a progressive (either turret OR something like the LNL AP / dillon). Also important when doing a single stage thing (a quick glance over case mouths while sitting in their reloading blocks suffices).
If it matters any, I have a single stage and the LNL AP. They both fill different needs.
Your RCBS dies will work in in the LNL AP just fine. You'll need to pick up some LNL AP die bushings (GU and Cabela's both have them usually). I load my 40s&w with RCBS dies in my LNL AP no problem.
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Wow, thanks for the great info, everyone. I've used a regular press. I was impressed with how long everything took. It just seemed like a seriously slow process. However, I do see the reason for the recommendations for non-progressive presses. I'll think about it...
If I got an RCBS die set for 9mm, is there going to be a mismatch between them and the pistol cartridge shell plate for a non-RCBS press? A seating die would seem like it would be sensitive to a problem like this, but again -- I haven't seen a lot of presses and don't know what the standard type of adjustments for a die are.Anyway, thanks for the great info, everyone!
No...seating depth will be adjustable. The shell holder does just that..`holds the case` on the end of the ram
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I think a question got missed.
The match of shell holders to various presses. The dies are typically the same (with a few exceptions).
I use all Lee stuff so I have never tried the shell holder in another press.
Anyone else answer this? Are the shell holders pretty much universal? Or is the press brand required?
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There is difference's when using the hornady trimmer only hornady will work unless you open up the shell holder.
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I have LEE dies and they work fine in my Redding press. The LEE kits come with a shell holder matched to the caliber of the kit. Also have the Hornady bushing screwed in the top to use the Lock n Load adapters.
So far, so good.
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SS_N_NE:
Coupla items..........
there is nothing subject to chipping abuse and carbide will be very resistent to damage.
Just a gentle reminder that the setup instructions for tungsten carbide (TC) dies most always point out that the press ram must not touch the bottom of the decapping/ resizing die because the carbide insert in the die will be chipped if hit by the ram on the upstroke. However, regular non-TC die instructions often call for touching at setup.
Special Caution: If a reloading press ram is raised to the top and overcammed, followed by full insertion of a TC die to the point of touching, when the press operating handle is raised to lower the ram, the overcammed ram will raise just a few thousandths and jam into the TC die. Which may ruin it.
Anyone else answer this? Are the shell holders pretty much universal?
Pretty much. Yes. In my experience, Hornady, Lee, RCBS, Lyman, and Redding reloading press shell holders are interchangeable. However, they all have different manufacturer's part numbers, so reloaders can't use--for example--an RCBS shell holder chart to pick a Lee shellholder for a given cartridge size.
RCBS uses the same shellholder for the reloading press and the hand primer tool. It does double duty. However, Lee has different shellholders for reloading presses and hand priming tools. Also, Lee furnishes a caliber-specific shellholder with each set of dies. All other mfgrs. do not. You have to buy the shellholder separately.
Recommendation: Get a full set of twelve (12), rather than buy them individually. And get extras for your favorite calibers. Shell holders are often stolen after dark by gremlins and other critters from the Dark Side.
sfg
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Just a gentle reminder that the setup instructions for tungsten carbide (TC) dies most always point out that the press ram must not touch the bottom of the decapping/ resizing die because the carbide insert in the die will be chipped if hit by the ram on the upstroke. However, regular non-TC die instructions often call for touching at setup.
That's the problem with reloading....you can write a book about it. I should have clarified that properly set up dies with carbide inserts should not be subject to chipping in normal use.
The main point I was trying to make is that the LEE die sets are nicely made, typically lower cost, lifetime warranty and the carbide sets have real carbide inserts placing a very hard metal where most die wear could occur.
My experience the TiN coated tools is that TiN is often slapped over poor quality tools and ultimately fails over a poor base. Although TiN is a very tough coating, it does nothing if the metal below the coating is not up to the job.
As a clarification, I am not pushing LEE die sets, just the experience I have with those dies. The atributes of solid carbide in the dies should greatly extend service life and reduce brass case damage. I have had a couple people show me dies with TiN that were badly scratched and gouged. Obviously abuse in sizing or crimping brass with dirt on it. Hardened but otherwise untreated dies also seem subject to scratching inside the die and transfer damage to case brass. This is the reason I advocate cleaning brass before it goes through a sizing die, tearing up the die and the brass.