NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: abbafandr on April 21, 2013, 07:57:12 PM
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I heard recently that it is acceptable to use small rifle primers in place of small pistol primers. If this is true are there any load precautions that need to be taken? :-\
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Yep, works fine. Just reduce your loads and work back up. Most people consider SRP to be about equal to magnum small pistol.
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Yep, works fine. Just reduce your loads and work back up. Most people consider SRP to be about equal to magnum small pistol.
By roughly how much? 10 or 20%?
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I started using small pistol magnum primers in 9mm due to avilibility. I started working up a load and ended up right back where I was when I was on small pistol primers.
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Not an expert on this (at all). No practical use of rifle primers in pistol loads.
I was under the impression (reloading manuals) that the difference between rifle and pistol primers was the thickness of the primer cup with rifle primers being thicker/heavier material and pistol primers being lighter/thinner material. The function being pistols have weaker firing pin/striker capacity.
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Not an expert on this (at all). No practical use of rifle primers in pistol loads.
They are practical when you cant find small pistol primers or refuse to pay outrageous prices.
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By roughly how much? 10 or 20%?
I would think 10 or 15% would be sufficient. If you want to be really careful you could start at whatever your manual lists for starting loads.
Small rifle primers are usually, but not always, a little hotter than small pistol. The primary difference is that the cup is a little thicker to take the higher pressure of rifle loads. For this reason some pistols may not ignite them consistently. In fact, there is some speculation that certain companies just label standard small rifle primers as magnum small pistol, rather than making two different primers. I can't speak to whether that is true, but I have used small rifle primers in pistol loads with no problems.
Never go the other way- small pistol primers are not strong enough to withstand rifle loads even though they will fit in the pocket. You run the risk of rupturing the primer and blowing hot gas all over your face.
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I had a box of Remington 9mm 115gr JHP. Fired from a Berreta 92fs, some of the primers blew out the firing pin indentation. Did not notice any overpressure signs other than the hole in the primer. Did feel some particles blow into my face when the bad rounds occured. About 3 rounds in a box of 50.
Mic'd some of the primer remnants and found some very thin metal in the blown primers. It appeared the primer cups were binding during the press operation in manufacturer and stretched the metal thin (there were stretch marks accross the grain of the metal...I have some experience in destructive metal testing via a quality control job in semi-trailer manufacturer).
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Thanks to the benevolence of gds I got a brick of CCI #550 small pistol magnum primers.
The recipe I started with used regular primers, 4.5 grains of HP-38 and an OAL of 1.125". Some people were reporting that 4.4 and 4.5 grains of HP-38 were working OK with magnum primers, but they weren't shooting a Beretta Nano with a 3" barrel.
I cut back about 10%. I made a batch of 50 each of 3.9 gr, 4.0 gr and 4.1 gr. It appeared to me that all the loads were too hot, especially the 4.1 gr, which gave significant recoil and noise. The 4.1 gr loads cratered the primers and flattened half of them. Even the 3.9 gr loads cratered the primers. I am using Berry's fully jacketed RN bullets and and set the OAL to 1.125".
I've dropped back to a batch of 3.7 grs of HP-38 but haven't fired them yet. HP-38 is hot and I was concerned about not filling the casing and possibly causing a detonation so I calculated the volume the 3.7 grs took and found that it left only 20% of the space empty.
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Some time ago I went to Cabelas. Asked the clerk for a kilo of WSP primers. [They still had 'em.]
Gottem home. Looked at box. Winchester WSP MAGNUM primers. I shoot about two (2) .357Mag rounds/year.
'Course, no point in taking them back to Cabela's. No-exchange rule.
Kicked my own butt for a while, just as a reminder to look at the stuff people are handing to me. Got over that.
Checked out possible uses. Turns out, several of my savvy reloading associates have used WSP Magnums as substitute for ordinary WSPs in these days of component shortage. Their solution for .38Spcl loads w/148gr DEWCs was to use the WSP Magnum primers and 3.5gr [very low-end load] of Win231. Stated results: "'Bout the same as the usual 4.0gr Win231 and regular WSP primers."
So I made up 20 rounds. Haven't shot 'em yet. Chicken.
I'm planning to make a deal w/unfy. "I'll shoot 20 rounds of your be-yoo-tee-fulll red-coated stuff if you'll shoot these 20 rounds for me. Could you move a coupla lanes more to the left????"
'Course it will never work. unfy is wayyyyyyyyy too wise and innately cautious for that kinda caper.
sfg
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I'm planning to make a deal w/unfy. "I'll shoot 20 rounds of your be-yoo-tee-fulll red-coated stuff if you'll shoot these 20 rounds for me. Could you move a coupla lanes more to the left?"
'Course it will never work. unfy is wayyyyyyyyy too wise and innately cautious for that kinda caper.
I don't have any Win231.
If I did, I'd offer to try a reduced 38 special load with magnum primers (assembled by myself of course).
I'm sure my S&W 686P can take any possible abuse :P
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I've dropped back to a batch of 3.7 grs of HP-38 but haven't fired them yet. HP-38 is hot and I was concerned about not filling the casing and possibly causing a detonation so I calculated the volume the 3.7 grs took and found that it left only 20% of the space empty.
Yesterday my wife and I went to Ikes and did a little shooting. It turns out that the batch of bullets with 3.7 gr of HP-38 is a little weak. About 20% of the rounds FTEd. On the good side there were no flattened or cratered primers! :) Looks Like I be loading with 4.0 grs.
Also on the good side, my wife fired a weapon for the first time in her life. After shooting about 20 rounds on the 21 yrd range , with half hitting the dirt in front of the targets and one hitting paper, we got her grip straightened out, and she understood what the sight picture should look like. My targets are 8X11 paper with a 3" black dot at the center. On the 7 yrd range her last four rounds were on paper. One and two were 4" from the bull, at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock, one was at 5 o'clock just outside the bull, and one was at 5 o'clock just inside the bull. She did very well!
But, the 9 mm Nano is too much for her 70 year old bones and her hand began hurting, so we called it a day after shooting about 120 or so rounds. I'm going to downsize her to a Phoenix Arms HP-22, which has little recoil and a shorter trigger pull.
http://www.phoenix-arms.com/Products/HP22A.html (http://www.phoenix-arms.com/Products/HP22A.html)
http://youtu.be/fv8qIw5cXwI (http://youtu.be/fv8qIw5cXwI)
and after almost 5,000 rounds:
http://youtu.be/CohOt0A2-FA (http://youtu.be/CohOt0A2-FA)
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Simply put, you can use SR primers in SP applications, but you'll need to start your load development at the published starting loads and work your loads up or down as needed. Some powders can exhibit pressure spikes if ignited too briskly, and while I've used SR primers in handgun calibers before (and will again), I've only used them with slower burning ball powders, never with fast flake powders like Bullseye or Titegroup, so I can't offer any insight on that option.
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So I made up 20 rounds. Haven't shot 'em yet. Chicken.
Well, yesterday I finally got around to shooting the .38Spcl loads [3.5gr Win231, 148gr BerrysBullets Double-Ended Gilded Wadcutters, Winchester Small Pistol Magnum Primers (instead of regular WSPs)].
(http://They shot very well.) About the same level of recoil as my usual .38Spcl loads, which use 4.0gr of Win231 and regular WSP primers. Made more of a higher, crisper "crack" sound that my usual reloads.
But......no flattened primers, no spent cases hard to eject from cylinder, nor any other sign of excess pressure.
So there you are, FWIW.
sfg
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no flattened primers,
Any cratering?
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GG:
Nothing observable in the way of primer cratering. All visible signs, including primers, seemed to indicate pretty much normal .38Spcl low pressure target loads, which was certainly the intent.
The only discernible difference [without use of instrumentation] was the sound, which was a higher pitched, shorter duration "crack" as compared to the usual "bang". [Reminds me of trying to describe songbird calls without use of recording devices.]
I'm guessing the hotter Magnum primers conflagrate all the powder somewhat more quickly than the regular primers, which could make the difference.
Shoulda run the chronometer on these test rounds, but I had along some guests from Canada who never are able to shoot handguns at home and I was introducing them to handgunnery. [They were using regular target rounds in my S&W Model 19, not the test rounds.] It was enough just to teach these two fine fellow professors to safely shoot a revolver, so I didn't bother w/the chrony setup.
So--I'm gonna use the WSP Magnum primers w/the 3.5gr Win231 loads. Until the Magnum primers are gone. This load is 0.5gr below my normal low end target load w/regular WSPs and Win231.
sfg
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It sounds like you're in good shape then.
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It sounds like you're in good shape then.
The Reloader's Code clearly says that we should stick with written, proven, tested reloading recipes. That is, use what's in the Book.
Since WSP Magnum primers are definitely NOT in the Reloading Book for .38Spcl, I approached this particular activity about as carefully as two porcupines making love.
First, I searched numerous handgun reloading websites and found discussions where this particular primer substitution had been previously made by experienced reloaders who obtained positive, acceptably-safe results. Next, I loaded at the low, low powder level. Last, when shooting the test rounds, I also took very conservative precautions that would nullify any Ka-boom event. [At least, with respect to the personal parts of myself and any bystanders.]
Still, being a generally cautious kinda fellow, I felt some discomfort with the process. Had to keep remembering that I was shooting these sparky .38s in a Model 19 Smith and Wesson revolver that regularly shoots .357Magnum rounds, so it's a rugged handgun, that one.
All in all........I'm still gonna load 'em up and shoot 'em.
sfg
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All in all........I'm still gonna load 'em up and shoot 'em.
Spoken like a true explorer!
A friend related his experience last week using reloaded .45 colt ammo in his "The Judge" revolver. The cylinder exploded on the second shot. He had his CHP for years and carried daily because of his line of work. The shortage of ammo gave him a desire to load his own, especially after I related my experience reloading 9mm for my Nano. His father-in-law reloaded and he watched as his FIL loaded up some "light" .45 colt rounds. I asked him "how light?". He said the case was only about 20% full of powder.
The first round was not a squib. He found the nose of the second round caught on the side of the barrel, jamming it up.
He's sending it back to Tarus.
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GG:
Pls help me understand what happened in the above Ka-boom situation:
The first round was not a squib. He found the nose of the second round caught on the side of the barrel, jamming it up.
First round went through OK, it seems. Apparently worked like it shoulda.
Second round got jammed inside barrel?? And also blew the second round shooting cavity in the cylinder??
What do you think happened?? Underload Detonation-Explosion Syndrome?? [I did indeed have some serious concern about a possible US-ES event while working up the previously mentioned reloads because I was definitely underloading the .38Spcls, according to published load data. Lowest load in book for Win231 was 4.0gr, using 148gr DEWC bullets.]
Just straighten it out for me if you can, please, so I can understand what happened.
Thanks,
sfg
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Second round got jammed inside barrel?? And also blew the second round shooting cavity in the cylinder??
He believes that when the 2nd round was fired the bullet traveled down the cylinder chamber and because, he believes, the cylinder was misaligned and the front edge of the lead bullet caught the edge of the barrel, forcing the lead to turn sideways, jamming the mouth of the barrel. The resulting overpressure blew the cylinder into three segments, one of which struck the son of the man who was shooting the gun in the stomach. The segment struck him on its flat side, instead of an edge, and neither his shirt or his skin were penetrated. It just stung like a strong hand slap.
I say believes because he didn't know for sure and that was the only idea he could think of. When he told me the rounds had filled the casing only 20% I suspected an overpressure caused by too rapid conflagration. I have only his word that the first round was not a squib, and I have only his suspicion that the cylinder didn't align properly before the hammer fell, which I find difficult to believe since he says the man was merely squeezing the trigger and the double action would properly align the cylinder.
I had other business and couldn't stand around and ask questions, but I plan to talk with him later and fill in some details.
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GG:
Thanks for the response.
BTW, the Hodgdon HP-38 that you are using is essentially the same powder as the Win231 that I'm using. Some sources say that it's the exact identical stuff. They are next to or very close to each other on most powder burn rate charts, if such is any indication.
sfg
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Never go the other way- small pistol primers are not strong enough to withstand rifle loads even though they will fit in the pocket. You run the risk of rupturing the primer and blowing hot gas all over your face.
I would normally agree with this but I just recently ran into a bunch of Remington SP primers that were too hard for my Kel-tec PF9 and my S&W Sigma to routinely punch. I ended up using them for my practice AR loads and have not noticed any problems. I have been told Remington primers are harder than others.
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BTW, the Hodgdon HP-38 that you are using is essentially the same powder as the Win231 that I'm using.
mmm... I notice that they are very close:
http://www.frfrogspad.com/burnrate.htm (http://www.frfrogspad.com/burnrate.htm)
10. Hodgdon Titegroup
11. Accurate No. 2
12. Alliant American Select
13. Winchester AA Plus
14. Hodgdon Clays
15. Vihta Vuori N320
16. Ramshot Competition
17. Scot Royal D
18. Winchester WST
19. Hodgdon HP38
20. Winchester 452AA
21. Scot 453
22. Winchester 231
I included the Hodgdon TiteGroup in that list because I have eight, one pound bottles of it. But, now that I've gotten back into reloading after a 55 year absence I'm beginning to think that the TiteGroup is a little too hot for my 9mm cartridge. Am I misunderstanding something? What do you think about using TiteGroup for 9mm reloading?
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I used titegroup on 9mm with no problem. Be careful with it though. The density of it is real high so can easily double charge the case. If you are loading lead bullets in front of them, you will get a lot of smoke since it burns hot.
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GG:
First, of all----bear with me while I complain about these various confusing names given to smokeless powders by their makers:
[Titewad vs. Titegroup, the various Clays, etc.: Different Bang! rates/Don't mixem. EZ to do.]
Second, these faster-Bang! powders are for liteweight bullets (generally, 124gr. and under). Less inertia in the smaller bullets; easier to get started going from Velocity = 0. Big bullet just sits there, waiting to go while the chamber pressure builds. [You know all this stuff from your Physics background.]
Third, only some Reloading Books have 9mm-Titegroup data. For example, Hornady does not. Lee does have some. So does Speer (115gr and 124gr). So you may have to dig to find a 9mm load you like in Titegroup.
Fourth, double-charging is a scary possibility. Always better to have a load that causes the double-charge to spill over on your bench than to explode in your face at the range.
As JonM Rightfully Sez:
Be careful with it though.
My thoughts, FWIW.
sfg
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I bought a 3 pounder of Titegroup a couple of years back. The first thing I tried it in was 9mm, with 125 gr bullets. It worked okay, but after less than one full magazine, the gun itself was hot enough to brand cattle with (pin match). I tried it in 38 Spl with the same results. The nitro content is apparently really high, and that can cause issues depending on the circumstances. Bullseye never did this to me in anything. Some guys really like it and are clamoring for it during the current shortages. I do wish them well, it's just not for me.