NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: OnTheFly on June 14, 2013, 10:22:05 PM
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Several months ago I had purchased 5K of small pistol primers, 8# of gun powder, and was poised to buy bullets and reloading equipment. Then the panic hit. After a few months of searching for bullets, I finally happened to be on the Montana Gold website and purchased a case. They had a one case limit, so my 16 year old daughter bought a case too. Oddly enough, she doesn't want the bullets, so I just bought them from her. ;)
As I stated in another thread, my friend has reloading equipment and has started to shoot pistol more, so we joined forces (supplies + equipment) to start reloading 9mm. We started with a recipe from a local forum member to see how it would work in our guns. We went to a friends house who helped us set up the dies in a matter of 30 minutes. Later that evening we had the dies back at my friends house and installed on his D550. We started to slowly produce rounds, but we began to have troubles with the primer feed mechanism. I believe that this definitely added a distraction as we tried to solve that particular problem.
Somewhere during this process, I believe I placed the bullet on the case while the case was in the powder drop stage BUT BEFORE the powder had been dropped. I must have had a distraction around this time (primer feed issue?) and when my attention went back to the reloading I advanced the press which left one round with no powder, one with no bullet, and another without a crimped case. When the case with powder but no bullet fell into the tray, I thought I had just failed to place a bullet on the case. I apparently did this a second time too.
So what was the result at the range? One squib for each of us, and two rounds that would not feed into the chamber because the case neck was still flared. Because we knew that our reloading was still in the experimental stage, we were being very cautious with each round we shot, looking for any unusual things.
After I figured out my mistake, I felt horrible. I don't want to see my mistake get myself or anyone else hurt and/or ruin a gun. HOWEVER, I have actually found the bright side of this situation...
1) I definitely learned something about reloading
2) I definitely learned something about how distractions can affect my reloading
2) I now know what a squib sounds like. A very odd muffled "PUH" which was quite different than just the striker falling. I think it is more likely that I will recognize a squib later
3) I now know how to hammer a squib out of a barrel
So now I just need to figure out how to keep it from happening again. Many experience reloaders I have talked to say that if they every get distracted, they either say "Just a minute" to the distractor and keep reloading until they have finished all the cases currently in the press, or they pull the cases and start over after the distraction is dealt with.
Okay...start the scolding.
Fly
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I see value in lessons learned. :)
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Heh.
Glad everyone and equipment turned out safe.
With my progressive, whenever there is ANY sort of "what happened here?" situation, I unload all of the shells from the press and start them over from the flare die after addressing whatever problem there was. And with a progressive, this isn't a huge concern as far as "time lost" - a few pulls of the handle and you're done with whatever time ya lost.
Distractions while reloading are a definite no no, especially with a progressive. No TV, no involved conversations, no talk radio. Why no talk radio ? Ya can't ask the radio "sorry, what?" - so ya gotta focus on it a bit more than a normal conversation.
It took about 1000 rounds before I even allowed myself to have music going on in the background. Do note concerning music - it shouldn't be loud. You need to be able to *hear* the press as an extra safety measure (detecting problems etc). For me, my music choice is usually some kind of calming ambient / soundscape like material or a jazzy groove kind of thing (thus it's easier to hear out of place sounds).
Concerning the primer feed issue... not being sure exactly what your problem was... there's a few things that help with my Hornady LNL AP which uses a tube + shuttle style thing as well.
a) if you have an adjustable cam guide that shuttle rides against, try fiddling with it a bit (can help for both getting a primer from the tube AND for the shuttle seating all the way under the shell plate etc)
b) some folks have had good luck putting an empty brass case of varying weight on top of the primer following rod/stick. 9mm, 45acp, whatever might fix things.
c) you should be able to still *feel* the primer seat... learn to pay attention to that feel to see if something's missing or if you're gonna crush something...
d) the 550 has an empty primer buzzer afaik (something the LNL AP aint got) ... but for my LNL AP i found taking a perm marker and marking the "empty" depth on the following rod to help lemme know how many primers are left in the tube (most feed problems occur when the tube is near empty)
e) pick up a can of hornady one shot dry lube and hit most surfaces with it
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Prime example of why all new reloaders should start out with a single stage press and a loading block. Glad nobody got hurt.
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Oh, and yes, there are youtube videos of folks hammering out 100 rounds in 3min or 1000 rounds in an hour or whatever on their progressive presses.
I don't advocate such nonsense.
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Prime example of why all new reloaders should start out with a single stage press and a loading block.
Or those returning to reloading after an absence of 40 years.
I began reloading again a few months ago.
I load 100 casings at a time.
1) Sonic cleaning with lemon juice.
2) Resize and punch out old primer on all casing
3) Flare neck and seat new primer on all casing
4) Dispense powder and manually place bullet in flared neck
5) immediately seat bullet
6) Goto step 4 for each casing until all are reloaded.
Every 20 bullets dispense 20 loads of powder into the scale pan and weight it. Divide by 20 to get the average. It should be the recipe weight. If not, tweak the powder dispenser and retest until it is. Return powder to the dispenser. Keep the powder level in the dispenser near the top.
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I run a single stage press.
The primers get removed before cleaning (so the primer pocket gets cleaned) with a universal decapping die. The universal die doesn't touch the case and no debris gets into a die.
I am seriously considering getting a hand primer. Currently using a Lee Safety Prime, that swings a single primer (from a tray) into a primer arm. Works OK but is a little clunky. I am thinking clean cases would be sized, then hand primed, then flared leaving powder ready cases.
It adds a lot of steps to a tedious single stage reloading system. Benefit is that solid attention is placed on each process and balance of operations can get serious attention. I like the visual inspection of 25 cases in a block where powder level can be generally verified by a quick comparison inspection before the bullets go on.
Everyone seems to develop their own system and levels of comfort.
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Fly:
Okay...start the scolding.
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
John 8:7
sfg
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Althought there seems to be a lot of them around, the tube type primer feeders appear somewhat scary. I have seen accounts and internet photos with a primer tube stuck in the ceiling from a chain fire.
I have mashed a primer completely sideways in a 9mm case without setting it off (and it did give the indications of weird feeling during the seat attempt). Not sure what it takes to set off a primer in a seating operation...and don't really want to have the experience all that bad. Imagine it will happen some day as the frequency catches up with the odds.
(just an odd thought I decided to type out....)
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Not sure what it takes to set off a primer in a seating operation...
The issue would be retrieving the primer from the tube, not the seating operation.
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The vertical bar is the tube of primers
The underscores is the guide the shuttle travels on
The equal signs are the shuttle
Note, the shuttle is actually shaped in such a way that it it's flat bar with a hole in it. At 'rest', the hole is under the shell plate for seating.... while the non-holed-flat-bar-portion is beneath the primer tube. There will be a mechanism to slide the shuttle out from under the shell plate so that the hole then lines up underneath the primer tube, causing a primer to fall into the hole.
Thus, when seating, the primers are kept away from the seating operation.
My assumption of what's going on is that a primer isn't necessarily falling "completely" within the hole in the shuttle. Then, when you retract the shuttle back into seating position, the anvil part of the primer gets caught on the edge of of the primer tube hole... causing the primer anvil to get canted, jammed, and thus discharging while attempting to slide the shuttle into seating position.
This would place the offending primer under the stack of other primers for the chain reaction boom.
My only thoughts as to how this might be possible would be attempting to reload at 123609287069823 rounds per hour, or maybe if the primer shuttle movement mechanism is "positive".
On the LNL AP, moving the shuttle from seating position to fetch-a-new-primer position is via a cam rod. The return from fetched-a-primer is governed by a spring. While that spring is fairly strong, it's not "positive movement".
Maybe if your cam is adjusted so that shuttle goes much further beyond it needs to so that the cam provides 'positive' movement.
Sorry for the lack of the proper word to replace 'positive'. Just meant something that is forced to happen.
The Hornady LNL AP primer shuttle/sled and cam is pictured below. There are holes in guide for where you'd mount the primer tube... but it's not installed at the moment.
(http://www.icantping.com/~mmasuda/hornady_info_files/image005.jpg)
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Primers are percussive.
They generally need some kind of sharp whack! to set them off.
The whack! breaks up the lead styphenate crystals, releasing energy from the crystalline bond. That released energy then sets off the other detonating chemical components in the primer material, sorta in a very fast chain reaction. [Faster than the speed of sound, which is why primers detonate, rather than deflagrate (burn very fast), like smokeless gunpowder under pressure.]
Static electricity will also provide enough energy to detonate primers.
I don't really know if squeezing will work, and--if so--just how much squeezing force would be required to set off a primer. Ain't gonna try, either. Not that curious.
I do know for sure that primers in a primer loading tube are potentially quite dangerous in that they are known to explode in a chain reaction and do so merrily and often. Which is why I don't use them in such an arrangement.
FWIW, Richard Lee of Lee Loaders says don't use Federal primers. They are too touchy. Reloaders note that Federals are packed in bigger boxes with more space between the individual primers than those of other manufacturers.
sfg
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Prime example of why all new reloaders should start out with a single stage press and a loading block. Glad nobody got hurt.
I beg to differ. My mistake does not mean that I do not understand the reloading process, or the importance of each step. What happened to me is no more proof that everyone should start on a single stage, than one single warm day is proof of climate change. What happened to me was the negative result of not managing my distractions properly. Reloading on a single stage is great for teaching the steps of reloading, but it is not necessary for everyone. ANYONE who learns reloading initially on a single stage, and understands the process intimately, could move to a progressive press and make the same or similar mistake.
Fly
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Concerning the primer feed issue... not being sure exactly what your problem was... there's a few things that help with my Hornady LNL AP which uses a tube + shuttle style thing as well.
The primer feed issue was a result of the shuttle not moving far enough to receive a primer AND not returning to the spring loaded position to be under the shell plate when it is time to seat the primer. If it was only not moving far enough to pick up a primer, bending the arm that pushes the shuttle would be the fix. If it was only not returning to the shell plate, a new spring might be the answer. However, my inkling is that the shuttle should be disassembled and dry lubed.
It seems that there is some kind of friction which is not allowing it to move in either direction freely. It WILL move, but it requires a pull and a push to get it into the two positions. I'm wondering if, when it is disassembled, we will find something like a spent primer or maybe just some dust/grime that is causing the shuttle to hang up.
Fly
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Currently using a Lee Safety Prime, that swings a single primer (from a tray) into a primer arm. Works OK but is a little clunky.
That's the same that comes with the Lee Anniversary Loader, which I use. It leaves two primers in the feed tube which the click device at the end of the feed tube leading from the tray doesn't insert them into the die. I have to retrieve them manually and place them in the die.
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The primer feed issue was a result of the shuttle not moving far enough to receive a primer AND not returning to the spring loaded position to be under the shell plate when it is time to seat the primer. If it was only not moving far enough to pick up a primer, bending the arm that pushes the shuttle would be the fix. If it was only not returning to the shell plate, a new spring might be the answer. However, my inkling is that the shuttle should be disassembled and dry lubed.
It seems that there is some kind of friction which is not allowing it to move in either direction freely. It WILL move, but it requires a pull and a push to get it into the two positions. I'm wondering if, when it is disassembled, we will find something like a spent primer or maybe just some dust/grime that is causing the shuttle to hang up.
Fly
A dry lube for sure.
I know on my LNL AP, I had to adjust the cam for the primer shuttle out a bit. The top piece (as seen in pic above) is some plastic with a slot rather than a hole - made the adjustment trivial to do and fixed my primer fetching problems.
The primer fetch problems were primarily that the shuttle wasn't being moved far enough so that while it worked frequently, it wasn't working all the time.
I did have also have some issues with it not returning all of the way. Dry lube fixed that for the most part. I imagine taking a revolution off the spring might be next step if necessary (which hasn't been).
I don't really know if squeezing will work, and--if so--just how much squeezing force would be required to set off a primer. Ain't gonna try, either. Not that curious.
The situation I described could possibly cause the anvil to squeeze into the powder... and if attempting to reload at silly fast speeds... I can see it causing a problem.
IE: after a year or more of thinking about the problem and eyeballing the hardware, it's the only thing I've been able to dream up heh
I'll grab some long channel locks and attempt a primer squeeze later. Depending on how it turns out, might be apt for clinic ;)
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Oh, and as far as progressive vs single stage for starting out...
Whatever the student is most comfortable with.
I started out immediately with the LNL AP.... not a single stage.
Granted, my first batch of rounds were done in single stage fashion (that is, only one piece of brass on the plate at a time)... but I knew I was going to get into reloading and I knew I was going to want a full progressive... so... I went that route.
I actually advocate people getting both types of presses throughout their reloading-career. Both types have strengths and weaknesses. Being able to easily and comfortably produce 100 rounds of plinking pistol ammo in 15-20min is definitely handy.
Being able to get real picky about rifle loads in a single stage is definitely handy.
For plinking ammo, I find the progressive easier - less to keep track of and far less to 'do'. Just pay attention to ram for powder in cases and primer seating... and just pull the handle a bunch. Far less to keep organized and such than single stage (although reloading blocks go a long way for that).
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Quote from: 00BUCK on June 14, 2013, 10:51:12 PM
Prime example of why all new reloaders should start out with a single stage press and a loading block. Glad nobody got hurt.
I beg to differ. My mistake does not mean that I do not understand the reloading process, or the importance of each step. What happened to me is no more proof that everyone should start on a single stage, than one single warm day is proof of climate change. What happened to me was the negative result of not managing my distractions properly. Reloading on a single stage is great for teaching the steps of reloading, but it is not necessary for everyone. ANYONE who learns reloading initially on a single stage, and understands the process intimately, could move to a progressive press and make the same or similar mistake.
So what i was saying is that inherently single stage and a loading block is much safer because you get to visually inspect the charged cases before seating a bullet. Sure mistakes can and do happen using that method but it is much less likely. Personally I'll never go to a progressive just for safety sake. I accept the reduced 'rounds per hour' for increased safety.
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Being able to easily and comfortably produce 100 rounds of plinking pistol ammo in 15-20min is definitely handy.
For comparison, using the single stage loader I load about 60 rounds of 9mm per hour.
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So what i was saying is that inherently single stage and a loading block is much safer because you get to visually inspect the charged cases before seating a bullet. Sure mistakes can and do happen using that method but it is much less likely. Personally I'll never go to a progressive just for safety sake. I accept the reduced 'rounds per hour' for increased safety.
With a progressive (at least the D550 we are using) I can check visually to confirm powder has been dropped. Again, that was not the problem. The empty space between my ears was.
Fly
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An interesting thread. Lots of good info. We all learned something...and nobody got hurt.
Like anything with production, quality assurance is setting the process and reducing error to an acceptable level. However that process is done.
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I just reloaded another 250 rounds and it only took me 4 hours. That means I am whipping these puppies out at about 62 rounds per hour! :o
Look out Hornady, at this pace I will be manufacturing ammo in no time.
Seriously though...A good 2 hours of that was working on the Dillon 550 to clean it up, one primer that went in sideways, and make adjustments. My friend, who owns the press, asked Dillon and his machinist friend (who set up the press), whether cleaning and adjustments would help. Both basically said "No". His friend said that the primer shuttle had serrations on it and that was likely because Dillon new it would have issues. What?!
Now I am the type of person who has trouble accepting that a piece of machinery is not performing as it was intended...read tinkerer. So while my friend was sleeping (he works nights), I disassembled the primer shuttle, cleaned it, applied dry lube, bent the shuttle actuation arm, and reassembled.
Out of the ~250 rounds, I had one primer that was in upside down (or backwards depending on how you look at it), and one case that didn't get primed at all. The backwards primer may have been because I picked it up wrong with the primer tube. Considering that this was a major source of my distractions when I first tried reloading, I would say that is pretty damn good. I took it VERY slow initially making sure that I had powder in the case, and a primer in the shuttle before I advanced the shell plate, but after finding that the shuttle was reliably picking up primers, I just relied on the feel of seating the primer to know it picked up one.
I'm confident that I didn't make any of my prior mistakes since I managed my distractions better. Not to mention there were less of them. Also, found a few .380 in the mix of cases. Those don't work so good in a press set up for 9mm.
I will go test my rounds tomorrow. So I feel like I am making progress. Baby steps...baby steps.
Fly
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Out of the ~250 rounds, I had one primer that was in upside down (or backwards depending on how you look at it), and one case that didn't get primed at all. The backwards primer may have been because I picked it up wrong with the primer tube. Considering that this was a major source of my distractions when I first tried reloading, I would say that is pretty damn good. I took it VERY slow initially making sure that I had powder in the case, and a primer in the shuttle before I advanced the shell plate, but after finding that the shuttle was reliably picking up primers, I just relied on the feel of seating the primer to know it picked up one.
You should indeed be able to go by feel for seating primers, even in fully progressive press. I do, at least :).
The upside down / backwards primer - yeah, I'm not sure how that could possibly happen via the mechanisms of the press ... so blame that on yourself. Don't forget your reading glasses next time ya load up primer tubes.
requoting:
I took it VERY slow initially making sure that I had powder in the case, and a primer in the shuttle before I advanced the shell plate,
The first thing mentioned here... making sure powder in the case.... that is required if you use a fully progressive, a turret, a single stage, or a hand reloader. I dunno if your dillon has one or if it has room for one, but there are several powder-check dies available (including a buzzing one from dillon IIRC).
I personally am on the fence for trusting powder check dies fully and still generally insist on glancing in the case anyway. Given that I don't have an auto bullet feeder, I'm gonna be looking that direction anyway. Their mechanics are simple, which yields some trusting to them. The buzzing dillon (if there is such a thing) .... I'd hope there is a simple visual indicator as well (i'll have to do some reading/looking). Seeing positive confirmation that there's powder in a case is a requirement... rather than "did NOT hear a buzz, its okay"...
As far as primer in the shuttle, I'm sure after your next batch... and assuming it starts out and runs well, you'll skip checking the shuttle completely and just rely on "hey, that seating felt empty!".
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I dunno if your dillon has one or if it has room for one, but there are several powder-check dies available (including a buzzing one from dillon IIRC).
No...the D550 only has four stations. Maybe when I get my D650.
As far as primer in the shuttle, I'm sure after your next batch... and assuming it starts out and runs well, you'll skip checking the shuttle completely and just rely on "hey, that seating felt empty!".
Yep...that's the way it went today. Loaded another 450 rounds. Went pretty well tonight, though I won't really know that until I shoot all of them.
Fly