NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: 2 E L O on June 04, 2010, 12:12:20 PM
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Ok, I have a CCW permit and live in Omaha... I'll keep this question short and sweet.
If I have a weapon with me but want to go into a bar and have a beer or two (and don't have the option to return the gun home to it's safe), what is the best procedure to store the gun in the vehicle while I'm away? Typically when visiting a place that I can't carry I just lock the loaded gun in the glove box. Is this permissible if I've had a beer or I'm at a bar?
What's the best procedure for having a gun in the vehicle while I'm driving if I have had a beer or two (but still below the legal limit to drive)? I have an SUV so there is no actual trunk.
I searched and couldn't find answers to this specific issue.
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If it was me, I would say locked case, unloaded, in the back. Although technically I don't think there is a law that says if you're drinking you can't open carry...
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So.....does my CCW permit allow me to open carry in Omaha or is the OHP required?
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If you are a CCW holder then there is no need to have an Omaha OHP, but as it stands right this moment the weapon must be registered in Omaha.
Ron
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Also OPD considers a gun laying on the dash to be concealed.
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The regulations of the Nebraska CHP do not allow you to conceal carry with ANY alcohol in your system. That would include locked in the glovebox. In Omaha that would probably also include anywhere inside the passenger compartment within reach. In an SUV, a lock box in a rear compartment might suffice.
Your only good option is locked in the trunk, unloaded , seperate from the ammuntion as the federal safe passage laws require.
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Not to be a prude :angel1:, but since I got my permit, I have chosen to partake in any adult beverages only in my own home and only if I don't plan on leaving the house anytime soon. But that's just my choice. I did the bar scene and outgrew it I guess. I also wouldn't feel safe leaving such an estalishment late at night without protection.
Well I guess another factor would be that the only time I go out is with my kids, and I've also made a rule not to drink around them. Like I said, these are just my choices, but something to think about.
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I would say your drinking is causing you a problem. You have a decision to make.
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Please spare me the holier than thou alcohol pep talks, that's not what I was concerned about here. I'm 25, unmarried, no kids, so stopping at the bar on the way home from work once a month with my boss or a coworker for one or two beers does not mean I have a problem or that alcohol is causing me problems.
There are plenty of times that I'm carrying and choose not to have a drink and it's not an issue, but there are other times that I'd really like to go sit and BS with my coworkers or my boss at the bar for a half hour after work on some random day once every month or two. They're usually random, spur of the moment gatherings after a rough day in the office or after sending out a big project.
I'll just plan on getting a TSA lockbox for the cargo area and locking up the firearm separate from the ammunition. Thank you to all that helped. I appreciate your input.
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What if...we could find a knowledgeable person from the Nebraska State Patrol to participate in a special Q & A forum to answer questions like these. I think it would be a great avenue for the State Patrol to connect with the NFOA. I would help find that person.
While I greatly appreciate the knowledge base of the forum leadership, I believe it would be an added dimension to the depth of the conversations.
I have a bunch of "what ifs" to ask ;D like, "Where does open carry become concealed carry?" If my XD40 is in the rear jeans pocket with the handle showing, is that open or concealed? I would not carry that way but you get the idea. ???
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I'm pretty sure no one was trying to be "holier than thou".
I'm also about 99% sure the NSP will not give legal opinions here on the NFOA forum, but it wouldn't hurt to try.
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*DING* Idea just hit me, and yes it kinda hurt.
How about working a Q and A session with NE State Patrol into the get-together in September?
And I hope I didn't come off Holy n all, just thought I'd throw my $ .02 in. I guess what I forgot to put across is that with some of the Ego-trip officers out there, I just don't want to give them a chance to disarm you/me.
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This 'Un's for Wilson, in Response to His Inquiry:
Open Carry: Any generally recognizable part of the pistol must be visible and in plain sight at all times.
Concealed Carry: The handgun is totally hidden from view. No part of the pistol may be capable of being seen. If the lady behind you in the supermarket line can look into your pocket and see the grip or backstrap of your Ruger LCP, it isn't concealed any more.
In the case of Open Carry, the carrier can't show the side of the slide through a 1/4" diameter hole and say that it's open carry. Gotta be a generally recognizable portion of the handgun.
In the case of Concealed Carry, can't show Anything on the handgun to the Naked Eye. Nuthin'. All of the handgun must be covered at All Times. So---What about Printing?? Well, with a fully covered handgun which prints through fabric, the handgun is actually concealed, per the definition. But just don't get an LEO involved if you can help it, because from there on in, the situation is unstable and subject to the untidiness of human nature.
When you start dealing with LEOs, prosecutors, lawyers, judges and so forth, all you can really say is that it all starts to cost. Time and Money. Your Time. Your Money.
sfg
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If you are a CCW holder then there is no need to have an Omaha OHP, but as it stands right this moment the weapon must be registered in Omaha.
Ron
I hope you are talking about Omaha residents needing to register there weapons & not visitors from other counties & states?
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Omaha's ordinace requires everyone to register, even visitors passing through. After the passage of LB817 the City Attorney said he would not press charges against anyone with a CCW, but the law is still on the books and you are open to the OPD checking you out.
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Actually, Federal law Title 18 USC, Ch. 44, para. 926A trumps all other state and local laws with respect to transporting a firearm. That Federal law allows unimpeded transport of an unloaded firearm for any lawful purpose from one place of lawful possession to another such place, provided it's stashed in the automobile trunk, or otherwise inaccessible from the passenger compartment.
So---No Trunk? Like an SUV?? Then you Gotta lock it up in a closed case, unloaded, with ammo and firearm stored separately. Otherwise, some LEO will tell the prosecutor that the full magazine laying next to the empty firearm constitutes a loaded firearm. And the judge might just believe it.
And further, in-transit storage is definitely NOT allowed by means of the glove box. [A specific line-item No-No.]
Now--that particular Federal law should allow anyone not living in Omaha, but just passing through, to effect passage unimpeded.
Provided...............A Whole Bunch of Other Stuff:
>What's the purpose for transporting the firearm?? To deliver it for sale in a non-contiguous state?? Oops! Requires FFL transfer. Not legal.
>Suppose an official considers your storage unit to be a "glove box". After all, you could put gloves in there. There's room. Behind the pistol.
>So--you say you put the firearm in the console, not the glove box. Too bad. Console = Glove Box.
>Must that firearm be registered in the location from whence departed?? Like some gun-hating city in Illinois?? Was it?? Uh-oh!!!
>Was ownership of the firearm illegal from the place you left?? Or the place you're going?? Gotcha!!
>And on and on and on. Sometimes a guy wonders how many firearms laws he's breaking at all levels, just by quietly sitting there, admiring his guns.
sfg
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SemperFiGuy, can you cite the law for your definition of open carry?
Either a handgun is openly carried, or concealed.
If..."No part of the pistol may be capable of being seen" ( your definition) defines concealed, then if any part of the pistol IS capable of being seen it is not concealed.
I am not sure where you get the "generally recognizable part" and "must be in plain sight" requirements. Both defy the statutory definition of a concealed handgun being
"If any part of the handgun is capable of being seen, it is not a concealed handgun;"
Here is the statute:
69-2429. Terms, defined.
For purposes of the Concealed Handgun Permit Act:
(1) Concealed handgun means the handgun is totally hidden from view. If any part of the handgun is capable of being seen, it is not a concealed handgun;
As far as I know Open carry is not defined in Nebraska statutes.
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SemperFiGuy,
Without looking, I think you are referring to the Firearms Owners Protection Act (FOPA). That only applies if you are traveling interstate. For example, if I live in Wisconsin (where it is legal to have a handgun) and want to travel to Indiana (where it is also legal) I have to go through Illinois. If I do not stop (except for gas perhaps), and have the gun unloaded, cased, and stored as described in the federal law, I am good to drive through Illinois without an Illinois firearm owners permit. This doesn't affect the situation of a Nebraska permit holder in Nebraska.
My understanding of Nebraska law is once you take a drink your CHP is of no use. It's like you don't have one, except you still can't invoke the affirmative defense for carrying concealed. At that point, I think any legal firearm may be carried unloaded in a closed case, and that is what I would do. You might be able to have a loaded handgun openly carried (i.e. on the dash). However, doing so with any amount of alcohol would be infinitely irresponsible in my book even if not illegal.
All that said, this is my IMPESSION of the law without the benefit of thoroughly researching the subject. I may be completely wrong. I am not YOUR lawyer and I most certainly don't give legal advice on an open internet forum.
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I'll just plan on getting a TSA lockbox for the cargo area and locking up the firearm separate from the ammunition. Thank you to all that helped. I appreciate your input.
I have a better option for you. I have several of these and they work great! The smaller one works well to store my XD-40 sub and the larger for my Ruger P90DC. I can even fit the spare mag in the box without problems.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?id=0045006&navCount=1&parentId=cat20772&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat602007-cat20772_TGP&parentType=index&indexId=cat20772&rid= (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?id=0045006&navCount=1&parentId=cat20772&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat602007-cat20772_TGP&parentType=index&indexId=cat20772&rid=)
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If you are a CCW holder then there is no need to have an Omaha OHP, but as it stands right this moment the weapon must be registered in Omaha.
Ron
I hope you are talking about Omaha residents needing to register there weapons & not visitors from other counties & states?
Unfortunately yes, that?s what I mean. Don?t shoot the messenger please. If I read the law right and paid attention in class, to open carry in Omaha your weapon must be registered in Omaha. At least until such time as the current law is rescinded.
On a side note, Title 18 USC, Ch. 44, para. 926A address? transportation of a firearm, and not open carry. They are two different things. At least that?s my read of the laws involved, but I am not an attorney so please take that with a grain of salt. I would be very careful about this area and make sure to research the topic very thoroughly before making a decision to open carry in any other state than mine.
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Well, this corner of the NFOA Forum has gotten Lively, well and good.
Here We Go.......
Dan W:
I'm flattered that you even bothered to read my little screed, much less respond to it.
Concealed Carry
Now, We both got our info on concealed carry from the same place: Concealed Handgun Permit Act. And LB454. And Nebraska Administrative Code, Title 272, Chapter 21, Section 002.03. So let's stipulate agreement on that item. Concealed means concealed. Totally concealed. Actually, "Totally hidden from view with no portion of the handgun visible", [NAC].
Open Carry
Your assertion that Open Carry is not defined in Nebraska shall remain unchallenged here. However, you are welcome to convince the Judge that--just because any part of a handgun is showing, no matter how minuscule or indistinguishable or unrecognizable it might be--Nebraska's permissive, non-prohibited Open Carry mode is thereby fully effected. ["Here, Judge.......Look through this little hole in my holster........"]
Illegal Carry
Somewhere in between fully legal, Title 272 CHP Concealed Carry and clearly established, legal Open Carry.
After all, absent any existing legal definition, the law is what the judge says it is. In fact, the law is just about always what the judge says it is, regardless of how it's written. Even with definitions.
Now, Here's one for your consideration, if you have the time and inclination:
Most of us have seen those classic old leather flap holsters with "US" or "USMC" embossed upon them. With a great big flap and a little .38 Special M&P, you couldn't tell if what's inside is (a) a firearm or (b) lunch. The Chaplain probably carried a little flask of medicinal whiskey obtained from the Medical Officer in his holster.
Now---would that getup worn OWB/Strongside be Concealed or Open Carry?
RonVanDyn
Right On. I bought two of those very same Little Beauties during the recent Cabela's sale, same as you. For me, they are a temporary solution, because they are quite flimsy [22-24 gauge steel, or so] and look like they'll be easily compromised by a Perp's screwdriver. However, The Club [as in Steering Wheel Club] makes one of much heavier steel for $49.95. So I'll get those and replace the flimsier ones. Already used the flimsies several times, however.
Finally, Husker_Fan:
You nailed it. Zero tolerance for mixing alcohol [and some other controlled substances] with Nebraska CHP/CCW. Nay, not even just one little drinkie, Ossifer. None. Nor even before carrying concealed, should such stuff be detectable in urine, blood, or breath. [Unless therapeutically obtained and prescribed. Good luck here in the case of alcohol.]
And Anybody Else on the Forum: Wanna go Nuts in a Hurry??? Try reading Title 18 USC, Chapter 44, Firearms. Can't be Done. Even by Lawyers, I'll Bet...........
Let's Keep 'Em Covered Up.
And in the Trunk Across Illinois.
sfg
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I have a better option for you. I have several of these and they work great! The smaller one works well to store my XD-40 sub and the larger for my Ruger P90DC. I can even fit the spare mag in the box without problems.
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?id=0045006&navCount=1&parentId=cat20772&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat602007-cat20772_TGP&parentType=index&indexId=cat20772&rid= (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/standard-pod-wrapped.jsp?id=0045006&navCount=1&parentId=cat20772&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat602007-cat20772_TGP&parentType=index&indexId=cat20772&rid=)
Awesome! On sale! Done and done! Just bought one of the larges online and will pick it up in store....
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SFG, you are ignoring the fact that the statute I posted does legally define how to determine if a handgun is concealed. A judge would be limited by that definition unless he choose to defy the law. If any part of the handgun is capable of being seen, by law , it is not concealed, and therefore is openly carried.
Omaha was unable to make a case against James McCollough for this very reason
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Hi, Dan.........
The OWH newspaper account said--therefore, it must be true--that the Omaha authorities could not make a clear determination from the Walgreen's security photos that James McCullough's handgun was totally concealed. So it just mighta, coulda been Open Carry. But they weren't sure. Maybe it was concealed. But they had no clear proof. It was inconclusive. They said. So they kinda put it in the rear view mirror. Good move, them.
Plus, they probably didn't want to push the case against him anyhow.
Now, I'll say it again: You and I are in agreement on the definition of Concealed Carry. After all, it's there in the statutes, clearly defined in black and white: Keep it covered. Totally covered. We can probably let that dog die.
We do, however, appear to be in disagreement about the definition of Open Carry.
Your contention appears to be that there are (a) no laws positively permitting nor (b) definitions of Open Carry in Nebraska. Which position I accept.
My contention is simply that if so much of the handgun is hidden from sight that it cannot be clearly identified (generally recognizable) as a handgun, then it is not being carried openly. In which case it becomes...............Concealed.
I remain anchored to that position. However, at what point or percentage of cover it actually happens, I have no clue. After all, every Open Carry handgun is significantly covered by the holster, whenever one is used. Or the pants, when such handgun is simply stuck into the carrier's waistband.
But there are--must be--some generally recognizable parts sticking out, like the backstrap, grip, hammer, etc. Otherwise..............................it's Concealed.
So--you are welcome to disagree.
And we'll still be friends.
[And what about that military holster with the flap........................?]
sfg
[/b]
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The portion of the statute I quoted was intentionally inserted into LB454. It was designed to eliminate the literally thousands of "definitions" of what constitutes concealed carry of a handgun.
And since it is the only legal definition on the books, I would state that it would have to be considered.
Open carry is not defined, but since the concealed parameters have been defined, everything else that does not meet the defintion of "concealed" is de facto open carry.
Prior to this definition, anything that law enforcement wanted to call concealed was concealed, and there was no basis in law to dispute it.
Now that this basis is law, the law must prove that a handgun was concealed within that defintion in order to get a conviction.
That doesn't mean that they won't detain, arrest or attempt to prosecute you for unlicensed CCW, but it does mean that they will have to prove that no part of the handgun was capable of being seen, otherwise it is not a concealed handgun, and the charges will not stick if they can't prove that beyond a reasonable doubt . IANAL, but I did stay at a Holiday inn once
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Or you could be William J. Hill, and carry your gun open in the car in Omaha..... Grip showing between the console and seat....... And when OPD pulls you over for going 80 in a 35, you TELL the officer the handgun is there..... And the Officer, Irene Cornett (now know as Senator Abby Cornett) writes in her report that she SAW the grip of the gun when she approached the vehicle.....
Yet Mr, Hill was arrested, charged and convicted of CCW. Conviction was later set aside after appeal.
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Whether Chris Z will admit it or not, he has made my point.
And even though you win on appeal, your money and your time are all gone.
Further, there is much in between Open Carry and Concealed Carry.
For example, .................Brandishing.
Now, Dan: I know you know the answer about that old military holster w/the teeny .38 Special M&P hidden way down inside. C'mon, tell us!!!
Warm regards and sincere respect. [Especially for all your work on this Forum.]
sfg
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No definition for brandishing in Nebraska either... :dink:
Nebraska Revised Statutes
Back to Nebraska State Laws Search.
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SO your point is that it does not matter what the law is?
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My point is simply that no matter what the law says, or doesn't say.... Sometimes it doesn't matter.
The above case is a perfect example of how OPD will go to any length to "make the arrest" when it comes to guns. Because they have to try so darn hard to "look like they are tough on guns".
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Omaha is tough on guns... but much tougher on the guns' legal owners.
Just ask Mr. McCullough.
I wonder how that "gun turn-in program" will do today? How many weapons used in crimes will be brought to the cops, never to be traced to the criminal that used them?
Why throw the gun in the river when you can just give it to OPD, with "no questions asked"? ??? ::)
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My point is simply that no matter what the law says, or doesn't say.... Sometimes it doesn't matter.
The above case is a perfect example of how OPD will go to any length to "make the arrest" when it comes to guns. Because they have to try so darn hard to "look like they are tough on guns".
Sorry my question was aimed at SFG.
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Hmmm, I mis-read LB 817. Seems I read it as Omaha (or any city/town) is not to enforce any registration, period. This would include CCW holders, it would include non-CCW holders, it would include Uncle Harry or Joe-what's-his-face purchasing a concealable weapon at Guns Unlimited whether or not holding a CCW boot-lick certificate. No registration. Period.
Anyone read it differently? I ask this due to a post here stating that CCW holders would not be prosecuted for having unregistered weapons per LB 817. ...I disagree there in that I read 817 as no registration, period. Please enlighten me as my reading skills may not be what they once were.
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LB 817 ONLY exempts CHP holders
18-1703 Cities and villages shall not have the power
to regulate the ownership, possession, or transportation of a
concealed handgun, as such ownership, possession, or transportation
is authorized under the Concealed Handgun Permit Act, except as
expressly provided by state law, and shall not have the power
to require registration of a concealed handgun owned, possessed,
or transported by a permitholder under the act. Any existing
city or village ordinance, permit, or regulation regulating the
ownership, possession, or transportation of a concealed handgun,
as such ownership, possession, or transportation is authorized
under the act, except as expressly provided under state law, and
any existing city or village ordinance, permit, or regulation
requiring the registration of a concealed handgun owned, possessed,
or transported by a permitholder under the act, is declared to be
null and void as against any permitholder possessing a valid permit
under the act.