NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Handguns, Rifles & Shotguns => Rifles => Topic started by: bkoenig on March 01, 2011, 05:27:10 PM
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I just received the 1864 Snider I ordered from http://www.ima-usa.com/. For those who aren't familiar with obsolete, short-lived British military rifles from the 19th century, the Snider was an adaptation of the 1853 Enfield muzzleloading rifle that was issued to British troops and used in large numbers by both sides in the American Civil War. With the invention of cartridge ammunition a flip-open breech was added to the Enfield and the Snider rifle was born. It only saw a few years of service before being replaced by the Martini-Henry.
It uses a straight wall case and fires a .577 caliber bullet. Like the later .577/450 bottlenecked Martini Henry round that was its descendant, the original cases were made of hand rolled foil by orphans of British soldiers. It provided employment for the little urchins and kept Tommy well supplied with ammo, but obviously the quality was nothing like our modern ammunition. Assuming everything checks out I'll be making my cases out of resized 24ga brass shotgun shells. That's a lot cheaper than buying ready made cases at about $75 per 20. And yes, you can buy .577 Snider dies.
One of the variants of the Snider was the Nepal Snider. These were made under license in Nepal to British standards and are generally considered to be of nearly as good quality as a British made Snider. A few years back IMA found a huge cache of old rifles in Nepal and brought them to the U.S. for our enjoyment. My rifle is from what is known amongst collectors as the Nepal Cache.
The rifle arrived very well packed and missing no parts, as far as I can tell. It's covered in what appears to be either prehistoric tar or yak grease. The wood has very few dings or dents - the few it does have appear to be modern, probably from piling them into crates for the trip to America. You'll notice the lock has a bright area where the yakoline was scraped away. That's because a few genuine British Sniders were found mixed in, so the dealer obviously is checking to make sure those don't slip out.
Here it is out of the box, with bayonet. It's so long that with the bayonet fixed I couldn't fit the whole thing in the camera.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1609-1.jpg)
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Another picture, showing the trapdoor breech:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1613.jpg)
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And one more showing the lock. I have a lot of cleanup work to do, but the reports I'm reading of these mostly say they clean up very nice, and the bores tend to be like new under all the yeti sludge. I'll post more pictures as I make progress on it, and hopefully this summer the old Snider will be ready to roar again.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1612.jpg)
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Does it have any moving parts? It looks like it's frozen solid!
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The hammer moves but doesn't lock back. From what I've read that's typical until you get the lock off and clean all the gunk out of it. The breech is gummed shut too. The good news is that all that grease and crud should have done a good job of protecting the gun from rust and rot. I'm going to start disassembling it tonight and we'll see what it looks like.
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How do you even clean something like that? Steel wool? I'd be afraid of damaging the screws trying to remove them. They are probably not available as replacement parts and would need to be custom made.
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Very fine steel wool and solvent. I plan to strip the gunk off but leave the natural patina on the metal. From the little bit I did tonight it looks like it will have a nice brown speckled color.
Got it disassembled, the bore looks like it's almost new. The breech came open after a soak in PB penetrating oil. There are a couple small screws missing so I'll have to scrounge those up. The rest of the screws actually came out fairly easily, the trick is to use the correct size of screwdriver and go very slowly.
I found out why the lock won't hold at half or full cock. It's completely gummed up with ear wax from the Abominable Snowman, so the trigger bar doesn't engage the sear. It does hold just fine if I push it up and force it to engage.
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Were those rifles originally blued?
Are the springs still springy?
Where are you going to come up with a .577 cal. ball?
Will you cast your own? Not many moulds available. (a quick search only turned up one miniball mould at .578 dia.)
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I'm not sure if they were originally blued. There appears to be some finish below the wood line, but that may be just gunk. The springs all seem to have held up well. One nice thing about this rifle is that other than the breech block it's the same as an 1853 Enfield. There are still parts being made to this day for that rifle. It's very popular with Civil War reenactors.
I plan to cast my own bullets for it. I already cast for my 45-70 so this will be nothing new. I've found a few moulds here and there, Dixie Gunworks has a few. I need to slug the bore and find out the exact size since they apparently can vary somewhat. Some people have reported good results with a .60 round ball, also. Another option if I can't find a mould that's quite big enough would be to paper patch the bullet.
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Another option if I can't find a mould that's quite big enough would be to paper patch the bullet.
Can you do that in a loaded cartridge?
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dude that looks awesome!! i can't wait to see how it turns out.
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Can you do that in a loaded cartridge?
Yes, it's actually quite common among competitive BPCR shooters. You wrap a layer of paper around the bullet befor seating it in the case.
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Here's an interesting part. I started cleaning the trigger guard and it has some Nepalese lettering on it. I'd like to think it says something cool like "Property of 5th Ghurka Regiment", but it probably says something like "Raju's momma is so fat her yak can't carry her."
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1616-1.jpg)
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outstanding, great job....
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That is a pretty thing you have there. I have restored and preserved swords and would love to talk to you about bringing the beauty out of this weapon but also making sure to preserve it. Doing damage to something like this is like kicking out a 12th century stained glass window. I would even help but if you are like me you would rather do it yourself. Please dont use steel wool.
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Thanks CC, if you have suggestions I'd love to hear them. I have worked on a couple old clunker guns before and it's a lot of fun. I've found very fine steel wool (#0000) actually does a good job of removing dirt and corrosion without removing any of the patina on the metal, as long as you don't get too aggressive with it. The last thing I want is to end up with shiney steel. The brass parts are actually already quite shiney underneath the dirt. An old toothbrush should do a good job of getting into any nooks and crannies like around the breech block and rear sight.
The stock has had some sort of hard black protective coating covering it. It's all over the wood, brass buttplate, screws, etc. Almost like it was dipped in something. Maybe it was. Once that's off I'll need to repair a couple minor splits in the stock. Nothing structural, but there are a few places such as one side of the barrel channel and in front of the lock that will need to be glued. Then, the wood is going to need as much oil as I can feed to it. It's extremely dry after being in storage for so long. I have a half gallon of tung oil waiting to be rubbed in. I've found actually using bare hands to rub the oil in helps the wood absorb more oil and results in a very smooth finish.
I gave the bore a good scrubbing and from what I can see it's basically in brand new condition. I wouldn't be surprised if this gun was never fired. At first I thought there was a little pitting, but it turned out to just be dirt. A 28ga shotgun brush and some patches cleaned it right up, and now it's very shiny with sharp lands and grooves. Now that the bore is clean I need to slug it and find out what size of bullet mould I need to order.
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I have got to be there when you fire that thing for the first time! There can not be anything else like the smell of burning black powder and yak grease in the morning! :tool:
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I have got to be there when you fire that thing for the first time! There can not be anything else like the smell of burning black powder and yak grease in the morning! :tool:
Yeah, Ditto that!
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I'll be sure to bring it to one of the vintage rifle matches so you guys can see it. I'll stick the bayonet on it and if I can't hit the target I'll run down range and stab it.
I have most of the gunk stripped off the metal parts. It seems like the entire assembled rifle was dipped in tar before putting it in storage. Mineral spirits wouldn't even touch the stuff, and it took several applications of paint stripper to soften it up enough that I could scrape it off. It turned out the rifle was actually unblued, in the white. This was fairly common for military arms of that time. I guess all the polishing required to keep them pretty gave the soldiers something to do and kept them out of trouble. The finish has aged to a grayish silver color. The barrel is actually pattern welded, and has a neat grain to it. Underneath the wood line there is some very minor pitting but nothing that would cause any problems.
Now the bad part. I found out the real reason the hammer wouldn't lock back was because the sear spring is broken and the sear itself is buggered up. I was able to bend the sear back into shape so it would hold, but I wouldn't trust it to be safe to shoot. Luckily, replacement sears and springs are readily available since it shares the same lock as the 1853 Enfield. Dixie Gun Works carries new production parts for this lock. I'll order those parts along with a bullet mould after I get around to slugging my bore. I'm not entirely sure how to measure a slug from a 3-groove barrel. Each land will have a groove directly opposite from it, so I don't think I'll be able to use calipers.
I found a used but like new set of .577 Snider dies on evilbay. They're 1 1/4" thread, so now I need to buy a press that will accept that size. Lee makes one that has a removable insert so you can use large bodied dies like .50 BMG and .577 Snider. If anyone sees a Classic Cast press for sale somewhere cheap let me know.
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Ok, the metal parts are all cleaned, oiled, and ready for reassembly. The original bare metal finish has darkened considerably over the last 150 or so years, so it has a kind of mottled patina to it. The barrel has a kind of swirled look to it since it's pattern welded. I still have to order a new sear and sear spring, and the keeper screw for the breech block pin is missing. Not a big deal, but I'll have to track down something that will work as a suitable replacement. I'm sure it will require a lot of hand fitting, as will the sear & spring.
Here's a before cleaning picture of the back side of the lock. I don't have a mainspring vice, so I cleaned things up as best I could without disassembling it. Luckily it wasn't really dirty, just coated in grease.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1619.jpg)
The lock after cleaning:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1623.jpg)
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Here's the partially reassembled barreled receiver and lock. The Damascus pattern of the barrel doesn't really show up here, but it's really visible when you see it in real life.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1620.jpg)
Here's a close up of the detail on the lock. I'm pretty sure the hammer and lock plate were engraved by hand. You can tell when you look closely and see the minor imperfections in the engraving.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1621.jpg)
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A closeup of the breech. The entire breech block swivels to the side for loading. To extract a fired case you pull back on the block and in theory the extractor pulls the brass out. In practice I guess a lot of people have to knock the cases loose with a cleaning rod, since the extractors are pretty worn and the 24ga shotgun cases used to form brass have a slightly undersized rim. The block is spring loaded, so when you let it go it snaps forward again.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1622.jpg)
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Heck of a project you got there - but you're doing a wonderful job. Unfortunately, I don't have your patience. As soon as I get my hands on a gun I want to shoot it. Make sure you post A LOT of pics once you get it all cleaned up and put together. I can't wait to see the final product!
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Mike, half the fun of this project is seeing the rifle emerge from under all the gunk, but I'm definitely excited to shoot it. It's kind of funny, the pictures make it look like there's a lot more rust than there really is.
Just ordered a new sear & spring. I also ordered 3 moulds for it. I slugged the bore but it seems one of the grooves is a little deeper than the others, so I wasn't sure what size to get. Nominal size is .577 but in reality the bore is quite a bit bigger. Luckily Dixie Gun Works had some cheap moulds for $10 each or $20 for 3 of them, so I got one in .580, one in .582, and one in .585. We'll see which one shoots best.
Next job is to get some Acraglas and repair a few splits in the stock, then give it as many coats of oil as I can get it to soak up.
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No new pictures, but I have repaired the lock. The sear worked without any fitting, and the sear spring needed just a minor amount of filing. There's a little locater tab on the spring that fits into a slot in the lock plate and it was just a little too long. 30 seconds of light filing and it fit perfectly. The trigger pull is atrocious. It's heavy and creepy. Couple that with the really wide rear sight notch and I understand why these never had a reputation as tack drivers.
I've given the stock several coats of tung oil, at least a half dozen. It could take more, but the wood is really getting dark and I don't want to overdo it. The wood had a lot of old stains and dark spots, and it's almost black in some areas. The stock was a lot more beat up than I first thought. Once I got the tar off of it I realized it had a lot of little nicks and dings. I repaired a few splits with some brown-tinted Acraglass, but I left all the existing marks in the wood. I'm calling it good for now, but I'll probably give it a coat every few months if it's feeling dry.
I have the rifle all reassembled now, and all I have left is to fabricate a keeper screw for the breech block pin, then I'm ready to start collecting reloading components and fire it up. I still need brass and a press that will accept large body dies. I already have lead and black powder, so I'm almost there. I'll try to get some pictures up in the next few days.
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Just realized I never got around to posting pictures of the finished rifle. I ordered a new press tonight that's big enough to accommodate the oversize dies, so hopefully I'll be shooting this thing by this weekend. Still need to trim the brass down before I run it through the sizing die, and I need to cast some bullets. I think I'm going to wuss out and use Pyrodex instead of real black powder, at least initially. I don't want to waste any of my precious Swiss 1.5, that's reserved for my Sharps.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/Snider/IMG_1657.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/Snider/IMG_1659.jpg)
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/Snider/IMG_1661.jpg)
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Slowly getting closer to bringing this thing back to life. I now have a grand total of (1) .577 Snider case ready for loading. I used 24ga shotgun brass, trimmed to 2". The brass is then annealed and run through the sizing die. I ruined the first two because I didn't anneal enough. I've also read that these should be annealed again after sizing. Not sure about that yet, I need to research more. The brass chambers but it's very loose, so I think I'll do the same thing when reloading as I do for my 45-70 Sharps. I'm going to resize just enough to squeeze the neck down a little and give it some tension to hold the bullet in place. I've also read the chambers on these are often oval shaped, so you need to mark the brass and load it the same way each time.
Here's a picture of the .577 in the middle, with a 45-70 on the left and a .223 on the right for comparison:
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/IMG_1669a.jpg)
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chunky little fellers aint they?
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Yep, and it shoots roughly the same bullet weight as the 45-70 but a much bigger caliber. The 45-70 shoots a very long bullet so it stabilizes well out past 1000 yards. I have a feeling the .577 will start to tumble after a few hundred yards. That and the horrible sights will probably combine to make this about a 100 yard rifle, max.
It's interesting that the formed case actually has a very slight bottleneck. I wonder if it will remain after firing or if it will blow out?
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i noticed it looked like it had a slight bottleneck to it, im sure that first time pressure hits it it will spread a little.
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Ok, it's all done except for pulling the trigger. I did a function check and verified with an empty, primed case that the firing pin would set the primers off. Everthing looked good so I got a few (6) rounds loaded up today. Only six because I only got six good bullets out of my mould. I'd just got done casting a bunch of 45-70 and I was tired so I didn't feel like staying in the garage much longer. The bullet I'm using is actually a Minie meant for a .58 muzzleloader, so it's basically a hollow base 515 grain wadcutter with three lube grooves. I used the same lube that I use for my .45-70 bullets (50% beeswax, 25% Crisco, 25% olive oil). I filled the grooves and also filled in the hollow base with lube as well.
These cases hold a LOT of powder! When loading black powder cartridges you don't want to leave any space between the powder and the projectile as that can cause a pressure spike. The height of the powder column determines your bullet seating depth. To seat deeper you have to either put in less powder or compress the powder more. With my 45-70 I have to compress the powder just to get 60 grains in the case. I put 70 grains in this thing and it still was only about half full. With that load I would have ended up with the bullet nose below the case mouth. So, I added half a cotton ball to the top of the powder, followed by a .030 cardboard wad. I then seated the bullet so the top lube groove was just under the case mouth. There's actually a lot more of the bullet inside the case than there is outside. If I actually loaded this all the way up with a full load of powder I think it would be just plain painful to shoot. I don't plan on ever doing that considering the age of the rifle.
Here's the loaded cartridge, again with a .45-70 on the left and .223 on the right. All three are military cartridges and it's interesting to see the difference in design over time.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg215/bkoenig1975/Snider/IMG_1671a.jpg)
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wow. that rocks! are you going to chronograph it?
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I don't own a chronograph or I would. My best guess of the muzzle velocity is sloooooooow.
I shot it this morning, just ran two rounds through it to see how it worked. It's about 2 feet high and 1 foot left at 100 yards. I need to rig up some non-permanent modification to the sight to correct that and then shoot for some actual groups to see what it can do.
Recoil wasn't bad, about on par with my 45-70, although these were very light loads. The rifle really wanted to twist in my hands when I shot it though. I imagine that huge diameter bullet puts out a lot of torque when the rifling spins it.
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I have a chronograph you can borrow, but if you shoot it you buy it ;D
it is not a high end unit but it does work good for me
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What model do you have? I've been thinking about buying one. To be honest, I've never cared too much about velocity. When I develop a load I just find the most accurate one for the rifle and stick with it.
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Competition Electronics ProChrono Pal
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Ok, I took my remaining 4 rounds to the range this morning and touched them off at 25 yards. It put all 4 rounds into one BIG hole. When the bullet is .58 inches it really doesn't take much to get all your shots touching.
This rifle definitely has promise, though. At 25 yards it was 4" left and 12" high, so I need to figure out how to adjust the sights somehow. The sights are soldered to the barrel so there's no adjustment. If I get around to casting some more bullets before this weekend I'm going to bring this to the vintage rifle match this weekend. I won't compete with it but I'll touch off a few rounds just for grins. It sure gets attention at the range!
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if it's the same bat time, same bat place i'll be there with coffee in hand. And a camera again. I can't wait to see this beast in person.
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I swore I was done buying guns for the rest of the year, but IMA-USA.com had a deal that I couldn't pass up:
(http://www.ima-usa.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/b6cef2188d4eb103760549d3dce283bd/N/B/NB1000U_1.jpg)
20% off. Looks like I'm going to be building a sand bag wall in my front yard and singing "Men of Harlech".
Zulu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrZbUS0MaY4#)
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bkoenig- is that a short chamber Boxer Henry .45 caliber miracle?? ;D
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Yes it is, Colour Sergeant Bourne.
One of the best movies of all time. Interestingly enough, I've read that many of the Zulu at Isandlwana and Rourke's Drift were armed with old Sniders. The British of course were armed with Martini-Henry rifles which had replaced the Snider in front line service. Yes, I'm a history geek. That's why I love these old rifles.
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Yes, a great movie about a great battle. The Zulu at Rorke's Drift also had Martinis they took at the massacre at Isandlwana. I'm a history geek too.
Good luck with the Martini-Henry. Keep us posted on your progress. When you get done, you may want one of these:
http://www.ima-usa.com/british-victorian-colonial-pith-helmet-white-m-1871.html (http://www.ima-usa.com/british-victorian-colonial-pith-helmet-white-m-1871.html)
Ghost
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I found something interesting last night as I was loading up some cartridges. Apparently my mould is marked wrong - it says it's a .585 diameter / 515 grain mould, but I decided to throw a bullet on the scale and find out. Turns out it's 570 grains :o
I also have a mould from the same manufacturer that's marked as 600 grains, but I haven't used it yet since it's a slightly smaller diameter (.582). I wonder how heavy of a bullet that would throw??? Eventually I'll try the other moulds to see which one shoots best. I could even try paper patching some one the smaller diameter bullets. In fact, I need to learn how to paper patch before I shoot the Martini, because I already have a .457 mould for my Sharps, and Martini's typically slug out at .468. That would let me shoot the same bullet in the .577/450 Martini and 45-70 Sharps. I need to win the lottery so I can retire and just spend all my time reloading.