NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: unfy on April 04, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
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So ... today at the breakfast meet & eat, I figured I'd try carrying again.
That didn't work out so well.
I've got a herniated L5 S1 (very low) disc towards the right side. I'm right handed. I currently carry via a crossbreed IWB that I *adore* (see other posts on me reforming kydex for it etc).
Anyway, that extra 3 pounds on that side of my hip just really smarts after a couple hours and I've still not recovered from the 3.5 hours of carry this morning.
I happen to carry a Sig P229 in 40s&w which is on the larger side (not quite as big as a GI 45acp, but is fater, carries 14 rounds, etc).
I'm looking for some suggestions.
- Position gun in the middle of the back ?
- Weak hand gun placement?
- Shoulder holster?
- Other?
I dunno if the 'middle of the back' would really work. I'm in an office chair 6-10hrs a day.
Weak hand: is learning to draw with your weak hand really an "all the time normal" "thing" ?
Weak hand placement with cross draw: I am not a fan, but thoughts ? If this is a possibility, is anyone willing to give me a 5min "this is how to do it safely" ?
Shoulder holster: again, not a fan of the whole 'cross draw' scenario - but this seems like it might be the most friendly to my back. I already wear hawaiian / flanel shirts all the time anyway so it can stay concealed. Any thoughts on safety ? Anyone willing to give me 5min of "dont do this you moron" ? :D Also - any one got a preference on a rig ?
Other: I'll entertain and honestly consider other options. Surgery is not one of them. Nor is pain killers.
edit: clarified carry duration this morning etc
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Pocket carry?
When I don't IWB carry my SW Shield 9mm I pocket carry a Ruger LC9s-Pro... Very comfortable.
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"Other: I'll entertain and honestly consider other options. Surgery is not one of them. Nor is pain killers."
My wife is using some ointment that is based on Bee venom for her foot, she says it works wonders. I'll try and get you the name.
As for carry, given any thought to ankle? Gonna have to get a mouse gun, but hey its a reson to go gun shopping and thats a good thing!
Ron
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Never considered pocket / ankle / leg carry. It would move the pressure off the spine, for sure. edit: assuming it's not tugging on the belt to pull that side of the hip down
It would be somewhat interesting to just open leg carry heh.
As a joke: Gotta re-buy a 10ga side by side, get the tax stamp, cut it down to 6" and have that on my thigh :P (yes, i was gonna do that with the one that got stolen).
Anyway - for the bee venom / foot thing - a topical treatment wouldn't do me much good. I don't think. It might, I dunno. Basically - without the firearm I am fine throughout the day. I gym every other day and have no problems doing 270lb x 10 x 6 leg presses and 20min of breast stroke swimming each session.
2 hours of carry ? Agony begins.
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Never considered pocket / ankle / leg carry.
2 hours of carry ? Agony begins.
I can pocket carry the Ruger LC9s-Pro in front pocket with a Desantis Nemesis holster and almost forget I have it....very comfortable.
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I've used shoulder carry (Glock 17) as well as pocket and ankle (PF9). All fairly comfortable and reasonably easy to access. Pocket carry is dependent on cut and depth of pant pockets in my case. I have some that I just can't get the gun out of easily. FWIW.
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Have you considered Off Body carry? Like in a Wilderness Safepacker? I use one to carry into work every day, as I can't wear it on my hip and work on vehicles without causing great damage to my self and the car
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* Following *
(I have been having problems with my right shoulder- hurts like the dickens to do much with it, especially a proper drawing motion. I have been pondering carrying weak side and training to become proficient - ish with that, at least until things heal up. )
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I got the same thing, I still had 1 crutch at the breakfast this morning, to help with the weight, how about a pair of suspenders? I would think that would relieve some of the pressure
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I have been pondering carrying weak side and training to become proficient - ish with that, at least until things heal up. )
unfy/Bull:
Just for giggles, last year I tried left hand/left eye (Absolutely Non-Dominant Side) shooting.
As a Creature of Intense Habit, wuz amazed how well I could shoot using this lefty method.
Still doing right/dominant hand these days, but if my recent carpal tunnel attack doesn't go away shortly, might just have to switch.
And you just might try it for yourself.
sfg
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I REALLY appreciate all of the thoughts and ideas guys. It does mean alot to me. Thank you (and thank you in advance for more thoughts that will surely get posted heh).
Moving to a smaller firearm is something that I dunno if I'd be comfortable with. I chose my carry weapon very carefully based on what my perceived level of comfort and needs were. Not gonna start a caliber war, but I won't carry a 9mm. A smaller weapon in 40/45/357/etc - maybe. Would be the joy of learning how a new-to-me weapon acts (particularly adjusting to the new recoil and sight picture).
Pocket carry I'm a bit unsure of. Sure, the weight of the firearm is somewhat buffered by friction of the pocket against shirt/undies/skin ... but the weight is still hanging off the belt area of the pants. Kinda like having a lot of change. Which would make it not too different than any belt-based rig. In particular, an IWB setup where the leverage will be similar.
NE Bull: weak side carry would mean a new holster, just a heads up. Can't just spin your belt around heh. It's something that makes me quite nervous though. I dunno if I've ever really put effort into trying a two handed weak hand. Single weak hand I'll practice just cause, but not two handed. I learned a new keyboard layout (Qwerty -> Colemak) in about 3 weeks. Wonder how long it'd take to learn to weak hand a weapon.
Is your problem just joint stuff, or musculature ?
Dan: off body. I do have something of a fanny pack like thing. It's not really a fanny pack, but it's... kinda ? Anyhoo, it's got an concealed area for a firearm. I had bought it for use here at work when a coworker and I would do for walks. Change into shorts + wear that thing.
It's.... somewhere. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find it and take pics.
These days, the Wilderness Safepacker would just be mistaken for as a phone protector >:D
abbafandr: any particular things ya did to note shoulder carry safety stuff ? Sure, I can watch myself draw in the mirror and try to figure out how to properly do it to keep the muzzle in a 'safe-ish' direction at all/most times etc - but that's far different than someone simply showing you once or twice with pointers on what to be conscious of.
I've talked to someone else that shoulder carried for a long time and they mentioned that you do start to dip to that side etc. I wonder if I'd be trading my current problem for another one down the road ?
shooter: Suspenders!
Haven't worn them in 30 years. But they might help more evenly distribute the weight, especially if they're cross suspenders or something like that. I'll step into a walmart tonight and see what they have etc.
I don't mean to go on any kind of offensive rant. And this isn't directed at anyone. It's maybe.... just some insight.
For anyone who hasn't had back / disc pain: what used to be comfortable, or ya wouldn't give a second thought to, or is as simple as 'breathing' - back/disc/nerve pain makes you re-learn EVERYTHING in your life.
For me, it took a few months to learn how to simply stand up "correctly". I have a swivel office chair here at work. I sit in the corner of an L shaped desk. To leave, I have to "go" to my right. How would most people and I normally get up, push off with their left leg to spin the chair a bit and reach out with their right leg. Plant their right food and push out of the chair with their arms while spinning their torso / hips to bring their left leg in front of them.
Just a normal way of getting up from a swivel chair if you have to turn to the right.
It took me forever to learn to just fully turn in the chair, and stand up "straight" with both feet pointing directly in front of me. No twisting motion at all. Stand up fine and all is great. Deliberate movements.
With the twisting motion that any normal person would do ? I get several "pops" and I stumble as my left foot hits the ground due to the acute pain.
I carry loose change in my left pocket and keys in right to try to balance the weight of my pants.
When leaning forward on something (such as the tables at the cafe), I'll try to push my shoulders back in to rotate / bring my chest up. This way the curve of the lower back is not humped but rather concave compared to my shoulder blades.
Leaning forward / down 4 inches while standing to flush the toilet can be an adventure some mornings. Similarly, using toilet paper where ya just gotta twist a bit or maybe lift just one leg a bit is fun acrobatics if your back is mad at you that day.
This is NOT meant to sound derogatory: Kinda like how young children don't understand why grandpa can't run or jump etc.
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I started having lower back pain from carrying strong side, I started carrying cross draw ( I know it's frowned upon ), this helped a lot. About a year ago I bought a personal tens unit and started to use it on lower back, problem solved, I can carry strong side again.
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I have a tens unit. They are awesome. Sadly, mine doesn't have the I/F mode, but it's still great. $70 shipped from here in the States ? Should have paid the $90-$120 for the one with I/F mode. Whatever.
Getting the 4 pads placed into the small of your back when you're single can be difficult though :( .... and it doesn't help for the immediate pain unless ya leave pads on ya and battery power it throughout the day heh.
I had to pace around around outside near the end of the breakfast to try to alleviate back probs.
Carrying cross draw seems like it'd cause the pelvis to tilt in the opposite direction, which would be of benefit to me, I think (see also: McKenzie Method and dictating which area to pinch and which area to flex - hint, pinch the direction that hurts. counter intuitive but it works).
Maybe I'll try looking like a doofus one day at home or at work and just have the loaded weapon on that side tucked between belt loops to see how it feels for an extended time.
Still gotta check out suspenders tonight.
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Ok. It was a fanny pack ._.
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This might be a little radical for most people but I've kicked around the idea of getting a Teeter Hangups inversion machine. They are supposed to relieve pressure on discs in the back. They are kinda expensive, last time I was at Dick's Sporting Goods they had them. Some of the reviews I read about them, some said using one caused them knee problems, kinda why I am not sure about getting one.
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Wishing you the best. That sounds bad. Mine flares up occasionally and totally went out twice, but I finally figured out what works for it: Naproxin. Lots of it. I take six a day for a few days and it fixes it somehow, probably 'cause of the anti-inflammatory attributes. Doc says if it works then keep doing it.
I have known some people for whom surgery actually worked.
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The best of luck unfy, I hope it works works for you.
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This might be a little radical for most people but I've kicked around the idea of getting a Teeter Hangups inversion machine. They are supposed to relieve pressure on discs in the back. They are kinda expensive, last time I was at Dick's Sporting Goods they had them. Some of the reviews I read about them, some said using one caused them knee problems, kinda why I am not sure about getting one.
If I try to do a decline bench press
(http://workoutlabs.com/wp-content/uploads/watermarked/Decline_Barbell_Bench_Press.png)
My back hurts as soon as I lay down.
If I attempt to do a decline sit up:
(http://www.isokineticsinc.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/qwt134.jpg)
My back kills me as soon as I lay down.
That kind of stretching motion / negative pressure just murders me. So no - an inversion machine is not for me.
Yet ... this thing I can do (but don't anymore just in case it wasn't helping):
(http://lifeinleggings.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/stretching-on-stretching-machine-1024x800.jpg)
Granted, I grabbed the lower handle bars to get more of a lower back stretch / knees into chest.
Or, leaning over a table with legs dangling loose (therefore stretching the lower back a bit) - I can also do (but don't anymore).
Any kind of inversion ? Torture device. And yes, it was one of the first things I thought of after the injury a couple years ago LOL.
Naproxen Sodium - I debated going that route. Or steady ibuprofen. Or popping the ketoprofen I currently have.
Buuuttt ------ if I don't carry my weapon - and still do the gym every other day etc - I take a single advil maybe once every 2 weeks. I simply don't "hurt" like when carrying.
I've been doing my best to NOT pop a ketoprofen today heh.
It's just that little bit of uneven weight of the weapon on that side of hip that is hateful. Anyway, time to go to walmart to look at suspenders and then hit the gym to try to beat some sense into the body heh.
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I used to wear suspenders when I did house framing work. They were wide and helped disperse the weight of my leather tool belt.
Stylish too!!
I have seen similar wide suspenders at Menards, or a farm store that sells work clothes.
Good luck, Greg58
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I had surgery to repair a herniated disc about 7-8 years ago. For a long time after that I couldn't bear to have any pressure on my belt line. I found a S&W J-frame in a belly band, carried in the appendix position, worked for me. I still have nerve damage, but I've recoverd to the point where I can now carry in a more conventional 3:00 position.
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I finally figured out what works for it: Naproxin. Lots of it.
Discuss Naproxen with your doctor before taking it for more than a few days. It works but can have nasty side effects.
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This might be a stupid question but have you seen a physical therapist? I sprained a ligament in my back and messed my neck up pretty good, both within the last year. I tried a chiropractor with no relief. Went to Excel and, both times, was told that everything I was doing to try and make it better was actually making it worse. After a couple of weeks, doing what they suggested, I was 80% better. Within 4-5 weeks, was back to 100%.
- Shawn
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I also have a herniated disc between the L4 & L5. My pain radiates to the left (fortunately, I guess). Carrying on my right bothers me slightly but not so much that I can't relieve the pain/pressure by getting up and walking around periodically. So, switching to the opposite side might help.
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Discuss Naproxen with your doctor before taking it for more than a few days. It works but can have nasty side effects.
I have. He even prescribes some more mgs than OTC. It doesn't seem to bother me but it knocks out the back problems in no more than three or four days anyway.
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"I carry loose change in my left pocket and keys in right to try to balance the weight of my pants."
I didn't see in your comments where you carry your wallet...
I had L4/L5 surgery in Aug 2013. Disc was bulged out to the right and pressing on the primary nerve bundle into the right hip and right leg. I had reached the point that I could not sit for more than a few minutes and the day when we went to the surgery, I was laying down in the back seat. After surgery, and a few months rehab, things are much better but I do watch every move.
The reason I asked about the wallet... That was one of the first few questions the surgeon asked. A man's wallet in the back pocket is a problem waiting to happen. The pocket you keep it in tends to 'cock' the hip axis up on that side and put pressure on the other.
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Some form of tactical pants with pockets on the legs helps, I usually carry wallet on right leg pocket, a steady diet of glucosamine is necessary for me.
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Went to walmart last night. Picked up 3 sets of suspenders. Price was between $7 and $10 (edit: each)
2, by 'George' have the metal teeth grabby things.
1, by 'Dickies' that has plastic clips that hook under the belt.
The kitty approves of the collection heh.
Menards does indeed carry suspenders. They range price, so a heads up. I did NOT pick any of these up though.
There were things like these which are WAY overkill for casual office attire:
https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/tool-storage/tool-bags-belts/toolridergsx-gelfoam-suspender/p-1492823-c-9186.htm (https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/tool-storage/tool-bags-belts/toolridergsx-gelfoam-suspender/p-1492823-c-9186.htm)
(https://www.menards.com/main/store/20090519001/items/media/Hardware/ROOST001/ProductLarge/246-3012.jpg)
But, these didn't seem too bad (and were $15):
https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/tool-storage/tool-bags-belts/padded-suspenders/p-1649651-c-9186.htm (https://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/tool-storage/tool-bags-belts/padded-suspenders/p-1649651-c-9186.htm)
(https://www.menards.com/main/store/20090519001/items/media/Hardware/PANDU001/ProductLarge/TB-CTA-01051APaddedSuspenders.jpg)
Note that they're attachment hook things -- you'd prolly have to use belt loops as your anchor point for the 'tool' based suspenders.
Have I tried them out yet ? No. I slept till 7PM this evening (!!!!) ... and am at work piddling around a bit. I'll possibly try them in a bit or when I get home.
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For those wondering, I also have a lumbar support roll thing that I keep in the truck for the last 3 years. This thing is down right awesome. I love it to no end.
The physical therapist sold it to me, and... I've seen it at a medical supply store. It has walkers, canes, diff pillows, toilet accessories, etc. Can't recall the name, but there's a few around the Omaha area so.... yeah. The place I saw it was near 50th and L by TO Haas / Papa Murphy's.
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This might be a stupid question but have you seen a physical therapist?
First thing I attempted years ago. It did indeed help. Currently, something that's... kind of a ... 'press up' is my bread and butter:
(https://www.orthocarolina.com/assets/user/news/McKenzie_Method_OrthoCarolina.jpg)
The top position alone does wonders, the lower one is a bit rougher but also good heh. The key would be relax the back muscles so that you get the pelvic tilt and flexion (or reflexion?) in the lower back.
I also have a herniated disc between the L4 & L5. My pain radiates to the left (fortunately, I guess). Carrying on my right bothers me slightly but not so much that I can't relieve the pain/pressure by getting up and walking around periodically. So, switching to the opposite side might help.
So my thoughts about carrying on the opposite side might workout indeed.
The reason I asked about the wallet... That was one of the first few questions the surgeon asked. A man's wallet in the back pocket is a problem waiting to happen. The pocket you keep it in tends to 'cock' the hip axis up on that side and put pressure on the other.
After things went south, I'd throw the wallet on my desk here at work. I've quit doing that... should possibly get back into that habit. Wallet is 0.75-1.00 inches thick, so it's prolly not helping.
I used to have a 'technical' shoulder holster for phone and keys and stuff. Used to keep a wallet in it, too. Nice small clip wallet. I'll look into a smaller wallet again (or just no longer sitting on it).
My 'sitting' habits are also horrible. Kinda picked it up from my mom. She used to suffer from RLS, and I currently do. While it primarily is only a problem at night or when exhausted, it might affect daylight hours without realizing it. Anyway, I sit in all kinds of weird positions in chairs and am constantly changing position every 5-10min too. I've cut out some of the more extreme positions, but I imagine a few bad positions manage to sneak in. IE: i do manage to catch my self with a foot under my thigh or ass from time to time heh.
Some form of tactical pants with pockets on the legs helps, I usually carry wallet on right leg pocket, a steady diet of glucosamine is necessary for me.
A new set of pants that have deeper or side pockets could work out. I'll check some different stores to see what's available out there. That is, trying to avoid silly priced 'tactical' gear. I'll note, it will be weird to buy jeans from a retail store. Mom used to always say that second hand stores were best place for them, and I happen to agree. Cheap, can find in like new condition, etc. Granted, side pockets might mean kahkis or something.
As far as glucosamine & chondroitan - I found, personally, Shark Cartilage does better for me (g/c did nothing). But, each body is different. SC *is* g/c - just in a different form or whatever. I dunno. Whatever, the SC works for me so I'm happy.
Speaking of 'meds' - my current regimen for back stuff is shark cartilage, turmeric, boswellia twice a day (so 6 pills). I make the turmeric and boswellia capsules myself via bulk powder. The shark ? GNC. I'm not really up to trying new stuff or changing my regimen - it works for me. The most I'd be willing to do is maybe more turmeric and shark heh :P. Does the regimen help yes ? Is it 'just placebo' ? No. There will be days that I'll come in to work, look down at my weekly pill planner thing and realize I didn't take stuff the day before - explaining why the day before was 'off' heh.
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I'm curious as to why surgery is out of the question. I've had two back surgeries to remove bulging disk material. The first time was a small amount and I went home that day. The second time was a bit worse, the surgeon said he had never removed that much material before and I spent a week in the hospital. The pain relief both times was evident the moment I woke up from the surgery. It's been several years since the last one and I'm good to go. Good luck finding a solution.
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Haven't had a chance to try suspenders yet. Hours at work / home have been hectic.
I'm curious as to why surgery is out of the question.
Surgery changes things. And it's not necessarily "fixing things". I have talked to lots of people about such things over the years... and it seems that there's a few categories that may overlap.
a) it's awesome, fixes everything
b) once you have one back surgery, you always have more due to moving where stress occurs etc.
c) it only changed how the pain was/works/etc
d) it made things worse
e) standard possibilities due to complications
If I can avoid a 'no going back' choice / situation that is surgery - I will gladly do so. It's a personal choice, much like I refuse to take any kind of pain pill that is a narcotic in my current situation.
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I exhausted every other possibility before having surgery - chiropractor, muscle relaxers, pain killers, physical therapy, you name it. I was at a point where I was literally a cripple. I could barely walk, and when I did I looked like Igor from Young Frankenstein. Surgery is a last resort, but for me it was the right choice. I walked in to the hospital bent over at a 90 degree angle and walked out 6 hours later like a normal human being.
I've found the only time I really have problems now that I'm recovered is when I get lazy and stop exercising. If I don't stay in shape I start having sciatic pain, then I start dragging my left foot, and it goes downhill from there. As long as I stay active I'm more or less in the clear.
I completely understand your aversion to pain pills. I was in such agony that I took them, but I HATED it. Between the pain killers and the muscle relaxers I was a zombie. I once sat through an entire hour long meeting at work and had no idea what was said. I can see how people get addicted to them, though, because you build up a tolerance pretty fast. It would be very easy to start taking more and more to get the same effect. It's dangerous stuff.
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Trying out the Dickie's belt hook based suspenders today.
So far, so good. A bit weird, but not in absolute agony.
Might have them too taught, etc etc etc ... whatever. We'll see how the day turns out.
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FWIW, I only use the shoulder G17 and ankle PF9 on a longish road trip. Much easier to get to than my normal pocket, appendix PF9 or IWB G17.
Like the suspenders. :laugh:
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Suspenders: 8 hours of carry yesterday went smoothly. Carrying again today with same set of Dickies suspenders at the same tension as yesterday.
So far, a thumbs up.
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Another 9 hr carry day with suspenders and feeling okay for the most part.
I think the suspenders are having a slight negative affect on my posture... but... so far so good.
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By the grace of God I don't have a back problem, and I hope those who do find a solution. But I wanted to comment on the suspenders. When I carry my subcompact Glock on my belt I have to wear suspenders or my pants don't stay up very well. The extra magazines on the other side make the suspenders even more necessary, but even without them I need the suspenders. My extra large belly might have something to do with that I suppose. Just curious about whether I'm the only one who has that problem.
One suggestion: I use a SmartCarry holster when it's too hot out to wear a jacket or vest. Would that kind of holster help maybe?
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By the grace of God I don't have a back problem, and I hope those who do find a solution. But I wanted to comment on the suspenders. When I carry my subcompact Glock on my belt I have to wear suspenders or my pants don't stay up very well. The extra magazines on the other side make the suspenders even more necessary, but even without them I need the suspenders. My extra large belly might have something to do with that I suppose. Just curious about whether I'm the only one who has that problem.
One suggestion: I use a SmartCarry holster when it's too hot out to wear a jacket or vest. Would that kind of holster help maybe?
With a proper belt and a CrossBreed SuperTuck on one hip and my spare mag in a Leatherman pouch on the other hip - no real issues. No belly to speak of, though.
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I think some of it depends on how tight you wear a belt. Not only do you need a quality belt, but it needs to be snug.
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First time I've this post and had a few thoughts.
Can you wear suspenders under your shirt? That way you can get some suspenders that has some cushioning for the shoulders.
I was sitting next to ya at breakfast, and I was carrying in a fanny pack (Tommy's guns pack). Would prefer to carry at the 4:30 position though.
My mom had Kypoplasty done, worked wonders, don't know if that would work on herniated disc though.
Have arthritis in my back and the back cracker does wonder. Gets rid of the headaches too.
+1 on looking at personal trainer. My BIL is one and has done great things for people.
Some really good thoughts on this thread.
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I think some of it depends on how tight you wear a belt. Not only do you need a quality belt, but it needs to be snug.
Seems logical. :D
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After 3 days of successfully carrying 6-10hrs a day or so with the suspenders, I'm taking a few days off. (Also, I've noted how much lint has acquired on my pistol. Will be giving it a good cleaning this weekend heh.)
That side of my hip or back hurts (I dunno which). Either getting used to carry again with something pressing against the flesh on that side, or it has begun to cause problems with the herniated disc. Or maybe just slept wrong (been stressed). Hard to tell which. I'm not reaching for pain meds ... so... that's good.
Early next week, I'll look into weak/support hand side carry for a bit just to give feedback / opinion.
My mom had Kypoplasty done, worked wonders, don't know if that would work on herniated disc though.
Kyphoplasty looks to be for crushed / fractured / degenerated vertebrae. My problem is a disc issue (a crack/tear in it causing fluid to press into nerve cavity).
One suggestion: I use a SmartCarry holster when it's too hot out to wear a jacket or vest. Would that kind of holster help maybe?
Also for others that have suggested appendix carry.
I carry a Sig P229. A full size / frame pistol. It's not 1911 Match big, but still. Dunno how appropriate appendix carry might be. I'll do some fiddling with the firearm unloaded to see if it's just physically / dimensionally possible.
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By the way, you win 100 internets for the Army of Darkness shirt.