NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: XDHusker on May 21, 2013, 08:27:55 AM
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My 18 year old son is graduating this week and he knows that I take our family security very seriously and typically have several options within reach. He was in an uncomfortable spot last week with his girlfriend downtown by the river and asked me if he could get a knife.
So my question to you guys is, what legal options does he have off campus and what options does he have on campus when he goes down to Lincoln this fall?
Obviously at 18 he can't get a CHP, but I'm pretty sure it's legal for him to carry an auto knife (less than 3.5" in length) off campus, but I'm not sure what the on campus laws/rules are.
Also, would it be legal for him to carry OC spray in his pocket off campus and/or on campus?
Thanks in advance
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IIRC, carrying an auto knife is illegal unless you are military.
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Auto knives are illegal to possess in Lincoln.
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He should carry a whistle around his neck......the mere sight will cause the BGs to flee....yes being sarcastic in this day of PC
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Mace/Pepper Spray is legal in all 50 states, with some local limits on size, etc..
Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=mace+and+pepper+spray&tag=651998669-20&index=aps&hvadid=12948445675&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10600644251985658115&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9rs4akbqe6_b (http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=mace+and+pepper+spray&tag=651998669-20&index=aps&hvadid=12948445675&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10600644251985658115&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_9rs4akbqe6_b)
Walmart:
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Pepper%20Spray&adid=22222222220012955486&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=15365605456&wl4=&veh=sem (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=Pepper%20Spray&adid=22222222220012955486&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=b&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=15365605456&wl4=&veh=sem)
So are stun gun devices. Some stun devices look like cellphones, are contained in flashlights, and some are part of a telescopic baton, etc...
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=stun+gun&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Astun+gun (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=stun+gun&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Astun+gun)
http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=stun+gun&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0 (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_query=stun+gun&ic=16_0&Find=Find&search_constraint=0)
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Guard-Dog-Diablo-160-Lumen-Tactical-Flashlight-Plus-Stun-Gun-Black/23596785 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Guard-Dog-Diablo-160-Lumen-Tactical-Flashlight-Plus-Stun-Gun-Black/23596785)
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FWIW, Here is the UofN-Lincoln Policy on Weapons:
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http://police.unl.edu/services/WeaponStorage.shtml
Weapon Storage
University policy prohibits the possession of firearms, ammunition or other dangerous weapons on campus or in student housing. Students, Staff and Faculty are welcome to use our bins for weapon storage.
Lockers UNL Police provide a FREE storage area for firearms which will be checked out to the owner who has a prescribed identification. A matching identification is placed inside of the bin to confirm the owner's identity. The owner will be given a key for one of the bins two locks. University Police maintains the other key and will be the contact for the owner when they would like to retrieve their weapon.
The bins were created so that campus persons would not store their weapons in residence hall rooms, academic buildings or vehicles. Maintaining the weapons at the department provides a safe environment.
University Police will be available to check out weapons 24 hours a day. If you would like to view the bins before storing your weapon stop in at the UNL Police Department. We are located in the 17th and "R" Street parking garage (300 N.17th Street).
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This policy includes sharpened #2 yellow pencils.
sfg
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* If considering carrying a knife....first, know how to use it.
There are knife defense classes available that are well worth the money and the knowledge gained is priceless.
* If considering mace....do some homework before purchasing...some of that stuff is simply not reliable.
* If considering stun-guns....they only work in close encounter situations and can be turned around on the holder if not careful.
* Something else to consider is taking an adult defense course...there are several options out there.
(great graduation gift)
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when i was at UNL, the rec center offered a self defense class as a 1 credit hour class. i took it. it was ok.... lots of athletes in it.
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There is a federal law allowing one armed people to own and use a switch blade or auto knife. I would think having a state law making them illegal would trump the fed law.
A spring assist knife, from WalMart or Scheels is just as fast as an auto knife, and no laws violated.
I carry a Kershaw 1670tblkst from Walmart. About $60
Amazon also sells them.
http://www.amazon.com/Kershaw-Ken-Onion-Blur-Folding/dp/B0009VCA0S/ref=pd_sbs_sg_7 (http://www.amazon.com/Kershaw-Ken-Onion-Blur-Folding/dp/B0009VCA0S/ref=pd_sbs_sg_7)
Realize no one wins a knife fight. If he has two good legs, recommend he run away from confrontation.
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Fox Labs Pepper Spray but be careful when & where used. It puts me down for the count!
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A non-fixed-blade knife is a fairly poor defensive tool, IMO. Very slow to deploy when compared to a fixed blade knife.
Here's a video featuring the Ka-Bar TDI knife that demonstrates the difference in deployment time between folding (auto or assisted opening) knives and the Ka-bar TDI (skip to about 5:44 for the comparison): Ka-Bar TDI Knife Demo by John Benner of Tactical Defense Institute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZivRcSnPyw#)
I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Ka-bar, but one of the nice things about it is that the blade is short enough that it's not considered a knife based on many municipal codes. [Australian accent] That's not a knife! [/Australian accent] Other, similar short-bladed knives would have the same advantage.
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This policy includes sharpened #2 yellow pencils.
Shhhh..... If that gets around those in charge at UNL will outlaw them as well.
But, you jogged my memory. Tactical pens. http://www.amazon.com/Rothco-UZI-TACPEN-2-UZI-Tactical-Pen/dp/B003N3D6H0?tag=651998669-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Rothco-UZI-TACPEN-2-UZI-Tactical-Pen/dp/B003N3D6H0?tag=651998669-20)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31TSqi-6ntL._SX385_.jpg)
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.
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http://www.amazon.com/TACPEN-Tactical-Defender-Catcher-Gunmetal/dp/B004Z87B2S/ref=pd_sim_sg_2 (http://www.amazon.com/TACPEN-Tactical-Defender-Catcher-Gunmetal/dp/B004Z87B2S/ref=pd_sim_sg_2)
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Thanks for all the awesome replies. I was busy at work today so I'm just now reading them all. :)
I should better describe the knife I was calling an "auto knife". I was referring to a simple spring assisted folder and not a switchblade. I often call the spring assist folders "auto knifes" but I realize it's not a proper description. (and no I don't call magazines clips) :P
I forgot all about the tactical pen. I even own a nice surefire pen that I rarely use, so that one's going in his college stocking for sure. :)
I already inquired at 88 tactical about a self defense course today so I agree that it's a great going away present. I'm even going to take it with him because my Navy training is pretty rusty in this area to say the least.
Based on what you guys are saying and what I've found (or didn't find) googling I think OC spray is a good option. I personally carry UDAP Keychain Fogger Pepper Spray (https://store.udap.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=1&Category_Code=PS) and I did a quick test spray in the sink when I got it. It almost knocked me to the floor. I forgot to tell my wife and it knocked her out two hours later when she went to the bathroom. whoops, lol
Another one I just thought of is a flashlight. I carry a Surefire EB1 Backup flashlight (http://www.surefire.com/illumination/flashlights/eb1-backup-sup-reg-sup.html) and it would make for a nice forehead hammer in a pinch.
So, looks like my shopping/gift list is:
Flashlight
Pen
OC Spray
Defense Class
That should give him some options at least.
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A non-fixed-blade knife is a fairly poor defensive tool, IMO. Very slow to deploy when compared to a fixed blade knife.
Here's a video featuring the Ka-Bar TDI knife that demonstrates the difference in deployment time between folding (auto or assisted opening) knives and the Ka-bar TDI (skip to about 5:44 for the comparison): Ka-Bar TDI Knife Demo by John Benner of Tactical Defense Institute (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZivRcSnPyw#)
I'm not trying to sell anyone on the Ka-bar, but one of the nice things about it is that the blade is short enough that it's not considered a knife based on many municipal codes. [Australian accent] That's not a knife! [/Australian accent] Other, similar short-bladed knives would have the same advantage.
I'm with you. I found the Emerson Super Karambit to be the ideal middle ground. I can draw it fully open faster than any fixed blade. I love it for the retention and speed of deployment. Oh and that it's 3.4" so it's not really a "knife". I have a spring assisted SOG Tanto knife as well but it's borderline over 3.5" and much slower to deploy so I rarely carry it.
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My 18 year old son is graduating this week and he knows that I take our family security very seriously and typically have several options within reach.
[snip]
So my question to you guys is, what legal options does he have off campus and what options does he have on campus when he goes down to Lincoln this fall?
[snip]
Just a couple of comments based on personal opinion, so feel free to ignore the following. :)
Effectively, if you can't carry a gun, your defense tool choices basically come down to the following categories:
- knife/stabbing object (tac pen, etc)
- flashlight/hand weight/kubaton
- stun gun
- pepper spray
- useless nuisance items like whistles and noisemakers (I'm not going to even bother talking about these)
- comm devices
According to the law, a knife is a lethal-force-level object. As such, if you draw a knife, it is treated the same as drawing a pistol. If you use a knife, it is treated as a lethal-force response, just as if you shot a pistol.
Many people think that a knife is a lower-level response than a gun---but it isn't. So, when thinking about self-defense items and how they are used, that's rather important to know.
If you stab someone with a tactical pen, expect it to be considered a lethal-level response, considering the "stab" part of that sentence, the marketing associated with "tactical pens", and the current legal definition of "concealed weapon".
Knives, kubatons, and stun guns all require you to be within contact distance of your assailant. Stun guns in particular require you to STAY in contact with your assailant for prolonged periods of time, which generally doesn't work hardly at all in actual self-defense. (There is a reason why cops like Tasers a lot more than stun guns. And they tend to only use the contact application of the Taser when several other cops are holding down the bad guy.)
Don't bother with stun guns. Unless you manage to get directly on the central nervous system, it may not effect the assailant enough. (Yes, it'll lock the muscles in an arm--but if the person doesn't care, they do still have another arm, and if they hit you and your stun gun is no longer in contact with them, then they are back to full usage of both arms.) Heavy coats, people moving, etc---stun guns just aren't much good.
Knives really suck as self-defense weapons. Knives do NOT stop people quickly unless you cause huge amounts of blood loss incredibly quickly (along the lines of cutting multiple arteries simultaneously), knives require you to be in contact range but in general cannot be used to block incoming offensive techniques, and most "knife defense classes" teach knife dueling not self-defense, which is a great way to get 10-20 years in prison. And unless you have been practicing your draw (just like with a gun) accessing a knife under stress is difficult, and takes time. Generally, it takes carrying a dedicated self-defense knife (normally fixed-blade, belt-carried, short blade for legality) and practicing with it to actually be able to use it effectively for self-defense in public.
This is similar to pocket carry for guns. If you pocket carry, chances are your draw is measured in a not-small number of seconds. This means that in a vast majority of situations you will not have time to access your weapon.
Most people won't acknowledge the above, because "I've always carried this way, and it has always worked for me" where the phrase "worked for me" means "nothing has ever happened to me."
That is called talisman thinking, and I strongly suggest people knock it off. Having a self-defense tool does not magically create a force field that keeps bad guys away. HAVING THE TOOL doesn't reduce your chances of assault at all. However, since the chances of getting attacked ARE really small, many people carry various self-defense tools in non-optimum ways with non-realistic training and expectations, and it works completely well for them, because they never get attacked.
This doesn't mean it is a bright idea.
So please bear this in mind for other self-defense tools, too. Having a knife doesn't reduce your chances of being attacked. And just like a gun, it is a lethal-force response, but worse than a gun, it will require you to close with an attacker and be at contact range, where said tool will NOT cause quick incapacitation from a physical perspective.
And that is if you are actually trained in its use. (For example, stabbing tends to be more lethal, BUT slower to stop someone. Slashing someone 15 times in a series as taught in many self-defense classes is a great way to make sure you go to jail.)
Kubatons and other hand-weight items (yes, I know kubatons can be used for more than that) are often carried by people who think "I don't need to know any additional technique, they just make my normal punches much stronger!" ---which is true. Of course, that also means that 1) you have to know how to actually punch, 2) you have to be able to punch, and 3) your punches have to actually connect. All of that means that if you don't have any self-defense technique (empty hand) then hand-weight items won't really be of much use.
And no, most people DON'T know how to throw a punch. (And please, nobody tell me that you do because you've gotten into fights before. Just---don't.)
Out of the entire list of common self-defense tools that are available, in my opinion there are really only three things that will be potentially of actual use to most people: a flashlight, a cell phone, and pepper spray.
And the good thing is that since most people won't ever need self-defense items, people will STILL carry those things because two out of the three are extremely useful all of the time.
1) A small, hand-weight-able tac light (90-150 lumens, make sure it is LED) is cheap, tough, easy to find, if you lose it or break it you can buy another and it is no big deal. If you want to spend more, go right ahead, there are some incredibly bright ones with all sorts of bells and whistles out there, but it isn't necessary.
If you carry a flashlight, you'll find it is handy all the time. And if you need to light someone up you can do it, and once you shine the light in their eyes you can follow it up by bashing them in the face with the bezel. (Everyone can swing a hammer---and the movement is just the same. No extra training needed.)
2) Everyone should always have a cell phone on them. Not so they can text everyone all the time, and not so they can can keep checking their email---but so they can communicate in emergencies. Everyone should always have a charged cell phone on them.
3) And pepper spray? Is an extremely limited-use item, that is really only useful in a limited set of circumstances. However, it is also the only distance weapon out of the set, is legally NOT lethal force, can be used on humans and animals (yes, I know people are animals too), and if you make a mistake the worst that happens is that you have to stand in the shower for a long time wishing you were dead, but you won't ACTUALLY be dead.
If you buy OC, get two identical canisters, then take one out and PRACTICE with it. Mark eyes and mouth on a tree, then try to hit it. Hit it at greater distances. Hit it while you are moving away. (You should be running away, right? This isn't a fight, it is self-defense.) Learn to spray, not squirt. (It is continuous, not a pump.) Learn how to "paint the face" to cover eyes, nose, and throat. Start with the forehead and paint down. Don't bother with the foams, the "marking dyes" are interesting but pretty much never used, and the canister doesn't have to be large. Don't buy the incredibly small ones because they don't have much in them, and won't shoot much distance. Don't buy the huge canisters because you won't carry them. Pay attention to how much the pressure goes down as you use it. Practice deploying, unlocking (does it have a lock mechanism?) and using the spray. Figure out how you are going to always carry it.
Carry the other one. Periodically (once a month or so) shake it up a bit. (Pepper spray separates over time.) Every year, buy another one that is identical, and use your old one for practice again. Shake the new one, and carry it exactly like you did the old one.
The above is just my opinion. However, I often see people talking about carrying knives, tac pens, stun guns, etc---but they don't know how to use those things, don't know the laws about using those things, and in general, won't be able to use those things effectively for self-defense. (And probably will get themselves in huge amounts of legal trouble, particularly with knives.)
Your milage may vary, of course.
I note that the most important self-defense tool for college students is their BRAIN. (And probably the one they use least.) Don't do stupid things in stupid places with stupid people, pay attention to your surroundings, and don't let "it'll be okay, it is only just this once" let you change your decision-making process. And "running away" and "leaving now" are some of the best self-defense choices out there.
The above paragraph is WAY more important for effective self-defense than the rest of this entire post.
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Just a couple of comments based on personal opinion
Excellent comment!
Since I found out last Nov 5th that an insane person I helped convict of murder may (or will) be let out of prison, self-defense has become personal and it is for comments like these that I joined this forum. Before Nov 5th I never gave self-defense or CCW a single thought in my entire 72 years of life. Your post has enlightened me considerable on non-firearm devices.
P.S. -- I reviewed some of your previous posts. You are an instructor, right? Do you offer classes?
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I don't know who you are jthhapkido, but that was a great response, and I'm not easily impressed!
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Out of the entire list of common self-defense tools that are available, in my opinion there are really only three things that will be potentially of actual use to most people: a flashlight, a cell phone, and pepper spray.
Wow, thank you very much for the detailed response. I'm going to have my son read this tonight. :)
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I don't know who you are jthhapkido, but that was a great response, and I'm not easily impressed!
I`ll have to 2nd that.. ;D
Except.., hey wait a minute..I might fit a couple of those descriptions :laugh:
That last paragraph was golden!
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The UNL weapons storage policy has been listed already, but here is the weapons policy in general (bolding by me):
http://police.unl.edu/policies/weapons-policy[/url]]
Possession of dangerous weapons - concealed or unconcealed - on University property, on the worksite, in University vehicles, or in personal vehicles when on University property shall be a violation of UNL policy. A dangerous weapon shall include guns, knives, explosives, or any other device defined by statute or as determined by the University, which in the manner used or intended is capable of producing death, harm to person or property, or bodily injury. Violation of this policy shall make the offender subject to appropriate disciplinary or legal action.
This policy shall not apply to: a) students, faculty and staff when in direct transport of dangerous weapons between off-campus and weapons storage at University Police; and b) members of athletic teams who train and use firearms as a part of their competition in the University's rifle range, or in direct transport between firearms training facilities and authorized weapons storage facilities; c) authorized UNL Police personnel; d) law enforcement officers and security personnel working directly with UNL Police and acting in their official capacity for purposes of canying out work responsibilities; e) persons authorized by the facility administrator for IANR units to use and store dangerous weapons consistent with the Weapons/Hunting Policy of IANR as it applies to IANR research sites located outside the city limits of Lincoln, Nebraska.
In order to maintain and protect the health and safety of UNL property or persons on UNL property, persons who are neither UNL employees nor students who are found to be in possession of a dangerous weapon on UNL property may be subject to immediate seizure of the weapon by the University of Nebraska Police Department and removal from campus. Seized property not held as evidence in an investigation will be returned to the person upon exiting UNL property.
So, in other words, everything is a weapon.
I'm a graduate student at UNL and I'd like it if CHP's were valid on campus, but as we all know, they're not. Since I can't carry legally on campus, I just use my most important tool (which has been mentioned previously): my brain. My life as a graduate student is probably quite different than what your son will experience given that I don't live in the dorms on campus, don't have to attend classes in multiple buildings across campus, etc. I think situational awareness is key, really. Whenever I'm in a classroom (or any room, really), I look to see where all the exits are and try to seat myself such that I can see all the entrances and keep my back to a wall. I'm sure that many of you do this, too. This can be tricky to do when there are a lot of other students around taking the "good" seats (most of the time these seats are in the back of the room), but if I arrive early to a class, I can usually find a seat that fulfills my criteria.
I try to keep fairly regular hours, but in the past they have been somewhat erratic. I've had a number of late nights here. I can tell you that the City Campus is rather poorly lit. Many of the sidewalks are quite dark at night. A good flashlight has been mentioned already--I would second the suggestion of getting a good one. You mention you have a surefire--I have a few of them too. They make good lights, but they're kind of expensive for the performance you get, in my opinion. I've broken a few of them and they've always been good about replacing things (even when it was clearly my fault that the light broke), but I think you can get better lights for the same amount of money. I haven't kept up with the custom light scene for a while, but a good resource is candlepowerforums.com. The last light I bought about a year and a half ago was an aluminum Tri-EDC from Mac's Customs (http://www.macscustoms.com/0ma188.web.officelive.com/TriEDC.html (http://www.macscustoms.com/0ma188.web.officelive.com/TriEDC.html)). It's on the same price scale as a surefire ($200), but the performance blew my E1B (predecessor to your EB1) out of the water while sacrificing some runtime, but gaining rechargeable cells instead of primaries, and it's smaller than my E1B. There are probably better lights out there for that kind of money if you're interested, since mine is a 2 year old design. LED technology has been progressing quite rapidly.
This is similar to pocket carry for guns. If you pocket carry, chances are your draw is measured in a not-small number of seconds. This means that in a vast majority of situations you will not have time to access your weapon.
Most people won't acknowledge the above, because "I've always carried this way, and it has always worked for me" where the phrase "worked for me" means "nothing has ever happened to me."
That is called talisman thinking, and I strongly suggest people knock it off. Having a self-defense tool does not magically create a force field that keeps bad guys away. HAVING THE TOOL doesn't reduce your chances of assault at all. However, since the chances of getting attacked ARE really small, many people carry various self-defense tools in non-optimum ways with non-realistic training and expectations, and it works completely well for them, because they never get attacked.
This doesn't mean it is a bright idea.
I know this is a bit of a side-step to the topic, but why do you equate pocket carry with such talisman thinking? I pocket carry an airweight J-frame regularly. I practice drawing from my pocket just like I would any other carry method. Sure, if you're starting from your hand outside the pocket, it's not really all that fast, but if you already have your hand in your pocket gripping the weapon, it's not too bad. I pay attention to my surroundings, if I feel uncomfortable or I think I see something coming, I can rest my hand in my pocket with a full grip on my revolver, ready to draw if necessary and everyone around me is none the wiser. I think that's a HUGE upside to pocket carry that you neglect to consider. Will I be able to access my weapon in every situation (for example sitting down), always seeing what's coming because I pay attention to my surroundings? Of course not, no--I can't see everything. For me, pocket carry is a good balance between convenience and preparedness for most situations. If I felt I really needed a gun to go somewhere--I wouldn't go. If I had no choice and had to go, I'd take a long gun and hopefully some friends with long guns, too.
You say that many people carry in non-optimum ways--of course they do, OWB (or whatever you consider "optimum") likely isn't practical for every day to day CHP'er, me included. Sometimes I'll carry IWB, but one of the most important things to me when carrying is to stay concealed and if I'm doing something where I'll be bending over or crouching, etc., and my shirt will ride up over my weapon, I'll pocket carry instead. I know that open carry is legal, but I don't care to advertise, and in addition, very few people know that I have a CHP. I don't share it with my friends, coworkers or neighbors--it's none of their business.
In short, does pocket carry have its shortcomings? Of course. Is there one carry method that will work perfectly in any situation? Probably not.
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[snip]
A good flashlight has been mentioned already--I would second the suggestion of getting a good one. You mention you have a surefire--I have a few of them too. They make good lights, but they're kind of expensive for the performance you get, in my opinion. I've broken a few of them and they've always been good about replacing things (even when it was clearly my fault that the light broke), but I think you can get better lights for the same amount of money.
I'm a fan of $35 to $50 lights, because I bash them around a lot and use them all of the time---so when I wreck one, I don't feel bad about dumping it and getting another one. Two of my favorites are:
Streamlight Polytac LED light: http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-polytac-led-flashlight.html (http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-polytac-led-flashlight.html)
5.11 ATAC A1: http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-atac-a1-flashlight.html (http://www.lapolicegear.com/511-atac-a1-flashlight.html)
$35 and $50, 100 to 130 lumens, easy to replace standard batteries (for each type), tough case, LEDs, nicely hand-sized, and if you drop one down a well, life will go on. Buy a bunch, stick one in a pocket of each coat you own, stick one in your glove compartment, and have two on your dresser so you always remember to stick one in your pocket each day.
If you absolutely MUST stick with Surefire, you can spend $66 on something that is more than twice as bright---but I'm not really sure you can blind someone more than once.
Surefire G2X polymer: http://www.lapolicegear.com/sf-g2x-c-320-tac.html (http://www.lapolicegear.com/sf-g2x-c-320-tac.html)
I know this is a bit of a side-step to the topic, but why do you equate pocket carry with such talisman thinking?
Before we go on, I should note that I didn't equate it directly. The "talisman thinking" was more from:
"I've always carried this way, and it has always worked for me" where the phrase "worked for me" means "nothing has ever happened to me."
That is called talisman thinking, and I strongly suggest people knock it off.
That being said, I do think that pocket carry is non-optimal. Sometimes, for some people, it might be necessary, but that doesn't actually make it better. It just happens to be better than not having a gun at all.
I pocket carry an airweight J-frame regularly. I practice drawing from my pocket just like I would any other carry method. Sure, if you're starting from your hand outside the pocket, it's not really all that fast, but if you already have your hand in your pocket gripping the weapon, it's not too bad. I pay attention to my surroundings, if I feel uncomfortable or I think I see something coming, I can rest my hand in my pocket with a full grip on my revolver, ready to draw if necessary and everyone around me is none the wiser. I think that's a HUGE upside to pocket carry that you neglect to consider. Will I be able to access my weapon in every situation (for example sitting down), always seeing what's coming because I pay attention to my surroundings? Of course not, no--I can't see everything. For me, pocket carry is a good balance between convenience and preparedness for most situations. If I felt I really needed a gun to go somewhere--I wouldn't go. If I had no choice and had to go, I'd take a long gun and hopefully some friends with long guns, too.
Sounds like you have actually put thought (and practice) into it, which puts you ahead of a lot of people. As such, I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong.
Here's my thoughts, though:
1) Pants pocket, or coat pocket? If a coat pocket, one assumes you never take off the coat, since you don't want a gun out of your control---so why not wear an IWB since the coat will cover it? If a pants pocket---HOW?
Seriously, I want to know how. Even wearing baggy cargo pants, there is no way I can get a j-frame into a front pocket without making it look ridiculous. And if I put my hand on the gun, I am obviously grabbing something in my pocket, which looks silly. Drawing is adequate, IF I already have my hand on the gun and I am sitting/standing such that the draw stroke is aligned with the pocket opening, but even so it is only fast because my hand is on the gun.
2) Most of the time, I can't have my hands in my pockets. As such, a draw from the pocket in almost every situation will be extremely slow, as I can't start with my hand on the gun. (Speaking of---what's your draw time? I'm not asking for comparison's sake, and you don't actually have to answer---but do you know your draw time? That gives you an idea of the distance range necessary for effective use.) That's me, though. Maybe your pockets and your practice make you faster, and maybe you can have your hand on your gun a larger percentage of the time.
In general, though, I don't like having to rely on the idea that my hand has to be on the gun to realistically be able to access it in time.
3) For me, pocket carry isn't comfortable at all. A chunk of metal on the outside of my leg (assuming a pants pocket) that swings around (because if the pocket is too tight for the gun to move, it is too tight to draw unless the draw direction and pocket opening are perfectly aligned) just isn't comfortable. If I'm wearing an untucked polo, or a jacket, or a sweatshirt, then IWB is simply going to be more comfortable, and overall, faster in acquisition and use. If I have to tuck in a dress shirt or something, a tuckable holster is similar, and the draw really isn't any slower because either way I still have to lift the shirt.
I'm 5'8" (yeah, I'm short) and 165. And I carry a G17 with no issues throughout the year. Obviously, it is easier in winter, but in summer with the right holster, I have no problems concealing in a short-sleeved shirt and shorts. FOR ME, the difference in comfort level, ease of access from any position with either hand, and the weapon itself seem to be a much better choice than a 5-shot j-frame from a pocket.
Now, that's me. For you, it may not work out that way. But...
....what percentage of the time when other people are around is your hand actually on the gun?
....and if your hand is not on the gun, what is your actual draw time?
....and what is it from sitting, standing, or knocked on the floor?
(I note that I think everyone should know the answers to the last two questions for their particular carry mode.)
I will say that in winter, if I have to run outside for something really quickly (as in "less than 10 minutes away from my house"), I slip a j-frame into a Nemesis pocket holster in my winter coat, and away I go. In my opinion, this is a lesser option compared to my normal carry---but in my judgement/value system, I call it adequate for short amounts of time in specific circumstances. BUT I note that in those cases, it really IS in a pocket I can draw from no matter where I land, and I can keep my hand on it at all times because it is cold in winter and everyone has their hands in their pockets.
Sounds like I'm rationalizing, doesn't it? Well, perhaps I am. :) But I do it anyway, though not very often.
You say that many people carry in non-optimum ways--of course they do, OWB (or whatever you consider "optimum") likely isn't practical for every day to day CHP'er, me included. Sometimes I'll carry IWB, but one of the most important things to me when carrying is to stay concealed and if I'm doing something where I'll be bending over or crouching, etc., and my shirt will ride up over my weapon, I'll pocket carry instead.
One of the reasons I carry AIWB. For me, standard 4-5 o'clock IWB prints like you wouldn't believe. Either I've never found a holster that works for me, or I have a weird body shape (you never know!) but IWB just doesn't fly for me. With AIWB, once I found a holster type that worked, I can carry, bend over forward, bend to the sides, stretch up into the air---and it doesn't print nor does it dig into me.
In short, does pocket carry have its shortcomings? Of course. Is there one carry method that will work perfectly in any situation? Probably not.
I'll agree with that. And like I said, it appears that you have actually thought and it, and practiced. For you, that really may be the only reasonable solution. And it is better than not carrying.
That being said, you might try AIWB sometime...
With respect to talisman thinking---there are a LOT of people out there who got their CCW permit, bought a tiny Ruger LCP in .380, stick it in a pocket holster each day, and call that good. They have no idea what it will take to draw and use it, they haven't practiced, they haven't even checked to make sure that the holster will stay in the pocket when the gun comes out---but they are All Good, because the gun will keep them safe.
That's the type of pocket carry I was talking about, for talisman thinking. :)
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Excellent comment!
[snip]
P.S. -- I reviewed some of your previous posts. You are an instructor, right? Do you offer classes?
Glad people thought the post was useful.
I am an instructor, yes, and I do offer classes of various types, from shooting skills to CCW to CQT to defensive tactics. Matter of fact, we have a Defensive Tactics class coming up in July...
:)
If anyone is interested, we are Precision Response Training, and our website is:
http://precisionresponse.4t.com (http://precisionresponse.4t.com)
I normally post info about classes over in the Firearms Training subforum. ---And we've got a "My Ops are Blacker Than Your Ops" defensive tactics seminar/fun shoot this Saturday, where we still have two slots left for people who are interested...
http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8905.msg63063.html#msg63063 (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8905.msg63063.html#msg63063)
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1) Pants pocket, or coat pocket? If a coat pocket, one assumes you never take off the coat, since you don't want a gun out of your control---so why not wear an IWB since the coat will cover it? If a pants pocket---HOW?
Seriously, I want to know how. Even wearing baggy cargo pants, there is no way I can get a j-frame into a front pocket without making it look ridiculous. And if I put my hand on the gun, I am obviously grabbing something in my pocket, which looks silly. Drawing is adequate, IF I already have my hand on the gun and I am sitting/standing such that the draw stroke is aligned with the pocket opening, but even so it is only fast because my hand is on the gun.
When I pocket carry, it's either in a pants pocket (primarily) or a jacket pocket (less frequent). Like you say, the pocket must be large and easily accessible--if I choose to pocket carry, I'll wear pants that have a large pocket opening, usually a baggier-cargo-type pant. Sure, there's a bulge there, but the pocket holster breaks up the outline so it doesn't look like a gun, more like a thick wallet. Anyways, it's not like people stare at other people's pockets. Occasionally, I'll pocket carry in a jacket pocket for a quick trip to the store or something, or while riding motorcycle. If on a motorcycle, I'll zip the pocket shut--trying to shoot from a moving vehicle that can outrun most cars on the road seems a bit silly to me (I've had this argument on another forum--some people seem to think that you should be prepared to shoot from a moving motorcycle, I think they're crazy). I happened to crash a motorcycle while carrying IWB (no jacket, what a mistake!) and when I came to, the pistol and my spare mag were in the ditch. If I would've been wearing a jacket, it may have turned out differently, but since then, I've favored zipping a pistol into my pocket where it will stay put.
2) Most of the time, I can't have my hands in my pockets. As such, a draw from the pocket in almost every situation will be extremely slow, as I can't start with my hand on the gun. (Speaking of---what's your draw time? I'm not asking for comparison's sake, and you don't actually have to answer---but do you know your draw time? That gives you an idea of the distance range necessary for effective use.) That's me, though. Maybe your pockets and your practice make you faster, and maybe you can have your hand on your gun a larger percentage of the time.
I don't feel awkward with my hands in my pockets. Of course I don't keep my hands in my pockets all the time, but coupled with situational awareness, I think it's a decent carry method. I don't know my draw times for starting inside/outside the pocket. I don't have a shot timer and I don't compete. I'd like to get into IDPA in the future (in addition to further training), but as a grad student, I'm kind of strapped for cash. Besides, I'd probably get laughed at for bringing an airweight J-frame to a match. I have one other pistol (colt commander) but it isn't trustworthy. It's been back to colt for some issues and I haven't run it through the paces yet to see if it's good to go, besides it needs a dehorning before I'll carry it again.
I'm 5'8" (yeah, I'm short) and 165. And I carry a G17 with no issues throughout the year. Obviously, it is easier in winter, but in summer with the right holster, I have no problems concealing in a short-sleeved shirt and shorts. FOR ME, the difference in comfort level, ease of access from any position with either hand, and the weapon itself seem to be a much better choice than a 5-shot j-frame from a pocket.
I'm 5'10", 160, so I'm not a big guy either. I can conceal a full size at 4-5 o'clock IWB in a t-shirt/shorts, too, but that's if I'm standing up. If I sit, bend over, the grip prints badly. A pistol with a short grip doesn't print as badly for me, my j-frame disappears IWB at 4-5 o'clock.
Now, that's me. For you, it may not work out that way. But...
....what percentage of the time when other people are around is your hand actually on the gun?
....and if your hand is not on the gun, what is your actual draw time?
....and what is it from sitting, standing, or knocked on the floor?
(I note that I think everyone should know the answers to the last two questions for their particular carry mode.)
I don't know the percentage of time that I have my hand in my pocket resting on the gun--but as I mentioned earlier, I don't feel uncomfortable with my hands in my pockets. Noone's going to ask you what you've got in your pocket (at least noone's asked me so far...). Also mentioned earlier, I don't know my draw times, but access to your weapon in a variety of situations is definitely worth thinking of and planning for.
One of the reasons I carry AIWB. For me, standard 4-5 o'clock IWB prints like you wouldn't believe. Either I've never found a holster that works for me, or I have a weird body shape (you never know!) but IWB just doesn't fly for me. With AIWB, once I found a holster type that worked, I can carry, bend over forward, bend to the sides, stretch up into the air---and it doesn't print nor does it dig into me.
That being said, you might try AIWB sometime...
I've tried appendix and it's workable but not entirely comfortable if I have to bend forward. It prints quite a bit worse for me than 4-5 o'clock IWB, too. I'm a skinny guy and a bulge on one side of my front at the belt line is too noticeable, at least I think it is.
Ultimately, I think any chosen carry method comes down to personal preference stemming from a balance of preparedness and convenience/comfort. I don't pocket carry 100% of the time, it gets split between IWB, pocket, shoulder or deep concealment (smartcarry) depending on what I'm doing. If I'm going to be sitting in a car for most of the day, I wear a shoulder holster since it or a cross draw keep the weapon accessible. The smartcarry gets used for church (not in NE, unfortunately) or other activities where I'm wearing dress clothes and do not want to be found out. Having a gun is better than no gun. When I can get a real job and afford more ammunition and other pistols / holsters, I'll probably pocket carry less, but for now, it serves its purpose.
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When I pocket carry, it's either in a pants pocket (primarily) or a jacket pocket (less frequent). Like you say, the pocket must be large and easily accessible--if I choose to pocket carry, I'll wear pants that have a large pocket opening, usually a baggier-cargo-type pant. Sure, there's a bulge there, but the pocket holster breaks up the outline so it doesn't look like a gun, more like a thick wallet.
On me, it looks like----well, it looks bad. Ridiculously, horribly, not-funny bad. And that's using the pair of baggiest cargo pants I own. While it isn't obvious that it is a gun, it is obviously something, and something pretty ridiculous. :)
Anyways, it's not like people stare at other people's pockets. Occasionally, I'll pocket carry in a jacket pocket for a quick trip to the store or something, or while riding motorcycle. If on a motorcycle, I'll zip the pocket shut--trying to shoot from a moving vehicle that can outrun most cars on the road seems a bit silly to me (I've had this argument on another forum--some people seem to think that you should be prepared to shoot from a moving motorcycle, I think they're crazy). I happened to crash a motorcycle while carrying IWB (no jacket, what a mistake!) and when I came to, the pistol and my spare mag were in the ditch. If I would've been wearing a jacket, it may have turned out differently, but since then, I've favored zipping a pistol into my pocket where it will stay put.
Oh, come on! LOTS of tacticool people practice shooting one-handed from moving motorcycles! Along with shooting out of car windows while driving with the other hand!
:)
I'll note that I know people who carry AIWB while riding a motorcycle, without isssue.
I don't feel awkward with my hands in my pockets. Of course I don't keep my hands in my pockets all the time, but coupled with situational awareness, I think it's a decent carry method.
I don't feel awkward that way---I just can't normally do it. Hands in use doing something most of the time.
And situational awareness is a great thing, and something that everyone needs to practice. For me however, 1) I don't know if my awareness is sufficient to cover 100% of the time, and that means that part of the time, if something bad happened I'd have to draw from pocket carry when my hand didn't start on the gun---and for me, that is a very slow draw; 2) most situations don't require a lethal-level response, and if it isn't that level, having a hand in a pocket is not where I want my hands to be.
I don't know my draw times for starting inside/outside the pocket. I don't have a shot timer and I don't compete. I'd like to get into IDPA in the future (in addition to further training), but as a grad student, I'm kind of strapped for cash.
I bought my first timer when I was a grad student. :)
That being said, you can use an Android or iPhone shot timer with a par time to estimate your draw pretty easily in dryfire, or just find someone who has a shot timer. (This summer if you are near ENGC, let me know and I'll bring one over.)
Dryfire par timer draw time check: Set the Surefire Shot Timer (or whatever shot timer app you want to use---there are several for PCs, too) to a couple of seconds. On the beep, draw and see if you can drop the hammer on target within the par time. If so, reduce the par time. Keep doing so until you can't make it. Don't stop at where your absolute best is, stop at where your average is (and keep in mind your worst).
It won't be perfect, but it'll give you an idea.
Do it with hand in pocket, and hand outside of pocket. Try it while holding something (non breakable!) initially. Think of how you normally find yourself, in what condition, and look at the time differences between those cases.
Besides, I'd probably get laughed at for bringing an airweight J-frame to a match. I have one other pistol (colt commander) but it isn't trustworthy. It's been back to colt for some issues and I haven't run it through the paces yet to see if it's good to go, besides it needs a dehorning before I'll carry it again.
Hm. In IDPA, it won't be optimal---but that isn't the point. You are competing against yourself there, and giving yourself something extra to do. Anyone laughs, ask them if they actually carry what they are competing with. :)
Do you carry a reload normally? Speed strip or speed loader? (I'm doubting moon clips?) Get yourself a couple of speed strips or speed loaders and try IDPA. You'll have a good time.
I'm 5'10", 160, so I'm not a big guy either. I can conceal a full size at 4-5 o'clock IWB in a t-shirt/shorts, too, but that's if I'm standing up. If I sit, bend over, the grip prints badly. A pistol with a short grip doesn't print as badly for me, my j-frame disappears IWB at 4-5 o'clock.
Tried a G26 or a Kahr K-9? Grip is tiny...
Hm. If your j-frame disappears IWB, why again did you carry in a pocket instead? I assume your IWB draw is on average, quite a bit faster. (If you already explained that, sorry---I though you had said that IWB printed a lot, but above you say that your j-frame doesn't.)
I don't know the percentage of time that I have my hand in my pocket resting on the gun--but as I mentioned earlier, I don't feel uncomfortable with my hands in my pockets. Noone's going to ask you what you've got in your pocket (at least noone's asked me so far...). Also mentioned earlier, I don't know my draw times, but access to your weapon in a variety of situations is definitely worth thinking of and planning for.
Agreed. That's why I like timers---you get a pretty good idea of actual capabilities that way. For example, my draws from AIWB versus IWB are significantly consistently faster, and I can access the gun in a lot more positional cases without issue. (Again, that's for me specifically.)
I've tried appendix and it's workable but not entirely comfortable if I have to bend forward. It prints quite a bit worse for me than 4-5 o'clock IWB, too. I'm a skinny guy and a bulge on one side of my front at the belt line is too noticeable, at least I think it is.
It took a couple of different holsters before I found a couple that worked. For winter or cases in which I'm wearing a sweatshirt/coat/fleece that I'm not taking off, Archangel AIWB. For summer cases with untucked short-sleeve polo shirts or something similar, CCC Shaggy AIWB. For summer cases where I'm wearing thin tank tops or something on a windy day, a High Noon Mr. Softy. Or a Hidden Ally if I need tuckable version for dress wear. Other than for tuckable with dress wear, those are all for a G17, with occasional G19 if it is windy (because indeed, smaller grip prints less).
For dress wear, I need something slimmer than a Glock, so I use something else. :)
Point being, I tried a lot of holsters before I found ones that worked comfortably for me. For me, AIWB prints the least, allows for the most access in the largest variety of situations, allows carry of full-size firearms, and is comfortable for sitting, standing, driving (including long trips in cars or motorcycles) and what have you.
But that's me.
And for me, pocket carry----looks eye-catchingly ridiculous. :) While I agree that most people won't ask, that doesn't mean they don't notice the large apparently-life-threatening cancerous lump on my hip if I try to pocket carry. :)
Ultimately, I think any chosen carry method comes down to personal preference stemming from a balance of preparedness and convenience/comfort. I don't pocket carry 100% of the time, it gets split between IWB, pocket, shoulder or deep concealment (smartcarry) depending on what I'm doing. If I'm going to be sitting in a car for most of the day, I wear a shoulder holster since it or a cross draw keep the weapon accessible. The smartcarry gets used for church (not in NE, unfortunately) or other activities where I'm wearing dress clothes and do not want to be found out. Having a gun is better than no gun. When I can get a real job and afford more ammunition and other pistols / holsters, I'll probably pocket carry less, but for now, it serves its purpose.
And if you've thought it through, nobody should really argue with you. Comment and suggest, perhaps :) but if you are carrying consistently, that puts you ahead of a lot of people.
(I do certainly find that a tuckable AIWB with a flat semi-auto works well for dress clothes.)
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i am NEW to this forum, loving it so far.
first of all i am a huge open carrier, hard core actually.
If your son is looking for the best option for security i would have your son OPEN CARRY a hand gun. An 18 year old can not legally purchase a hand gun because he can not obtain a permit to purchase until 21 sadly. He CAN though receive one as a gift. If he is gifted a handgun it is legal for him to open carry his sidearm. federal law states that 18+ can open carry unless the state has made it more strict, which nebraska has not. Lincoln does not require a permit to open carry in their city, only omaha has that.
So 18, gifted a handgun, open carry on person and when transporting in a vehicle it CAN be loaded, one in the chamber if desired, but must be in plain sight at all times, never concealed unless ammo and gun are separated completely in two separate areas, one out of reach totally. Of course campus rules are law while on campus, but outside campus this should all apply.
I have done ALOT of research on open carry because it is what i do every day. Not everyone is comfortable with it but i rather carry open then carry a sharp piece of metal…… my opinion of course :P but this is a great option.
i always encourage people to do their own research so they can be fast and confident in what they are doing.
Any questions, feel free to message me!
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Cautionary Note for Those Handgun Open Carriers Under 21 Years of Age Who Might Wish to Do So Within the City of Omaha:
Omaha Municipal Code Sec. 20-204: Unlawful possession of concealable firearm; exceptions
(a) Any person who has not reached the age of 21 who possesses a concealable firearm as defined in this article commits the offense of unlawful possession of a concealable firearm.
(b) The provisions of this section shall not apply to the issuance of such firearms to members of the armed forces of the United States, active or reserve, national guard of the state, or reserve officer training corps, when on duty or training, or to the temporary loan of pistols, revolvers, or any other form of concealable firearms for instruction under the immediate supervision of a parent or guardian or adult instructor.
FWIW,
sfg
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You have to be 21 to even obtain an open carry permit in omaha. So yes in omaha it is illegal. This is for omaha.... This doesn't apply to outside city limits which includes Lincoln. Unless Lincoln has one I haven't found.
Federal law states you can be 18 and open carry.
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Federal law states you can be 18 and open carry.
ragedefined:
Do you have the USC Title paragraph on the federal OC law??? If so, you are invited to post it here for general reference and reading. I like to stay on top of the various federal, state, and local laws in order to be able to give solid advice to my carry classes. And to anyone else who asks.
So--please let me know if you have it handy.
Nebraska doesn't have any statutory reference to OC on its books, so it would be interesting to read the federal code and see what it actually says.
Thanks.
sfg
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Digging deeper into federal views on open carry. It appears that there is no actual open carry federal law. (That I can find anywhere). Only that a juvenile, under 18, cannot be in possession of a hand gun except the exclusions with an adult and military jazz. 18 USC 922 (x) (1). The federal government then leaves it up to the states to decide their open carry laws. Nebraska is an anomalous open carry state. Which basically means it has some grey areas to say the least.
In Nebraska's constitution it states, the right to keep and bear arms for security or defense of self, family, home, and others, and for lawful common defense, hunting, recreational use, and all other lawful purposes, and such rights shall not be denied or infringed by the state or any subdivision thereof.
So since there is no state law banning open carry, it is legal, except omaha. Omaha has created limits on open carry. So as long as one follows the federal laws on purchasing a handgun and a right to possess it and carry it, you can open carry outside of omaha limits if you are 18+ and are gifted the hand gun or 21+ with permit or license.
Now before conceal carry was granted in 2006 or 2007 (can't remember) the only way you could carry was open. Legally. No NE state law was in place to have any ban on it. As long as you were 18+.
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Actually, Nebraska has always had the prudent person provision for concealed carry:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
28-1202. Carrying concealed weapon; penalty; affirmative defense.
(1)(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, any person who carries a weapon or weapons concealed on or about his or her person, such as a handgun, a knife, brass or iron knuckles, or any other deadly weapon, commits the offense of carrying a concealed weapon.
(b) It is an affirmative defense that the defendant was engaged in any lawful business, calling, or employment at the time he or she was carrying any weapon or weapons and the circumstances in which such person was placed at the time were such as to justify a prudent person in carrying the weapon or weapons for the defense of his or her person, property, or family.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Presumably for business persons who carry a large amount of cash, citizens under death threats (whatever), stalking victims, etc., etc.
However, the courts have never liked it very much.
Would be interesting to have summaries of all the past case law decisions which have applied to this provision.
sfg
FWIW, the Concealed Handguy Law was passed on January 1, 2007 after the Governor signed LB 454, which was passed by the Unicameral in 2006..
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i am NEW to this forum, loving it so far.
first of all i am a huge open carrier, hard core actually.
If your son is looking for the best option for security i would have your son OPEN CARRY a hand gun. An 18 year old can not legally purchase a hand gun because he can not obtain a permit to purchase until 21 sadly. He CAN though receive one as a gift. If he is gifted a handgun it is legal for him to open carry his sidearm. federal law states that 18+ can open carry unless the state has made it more strict, which nebraska has not. Lincoln does not require a permit to open carry in their city, only omaha has that.
So 18, gifted a handgun, open carry on person and when transporting in a vehicle it CAN be loaded, one in the chamber if desired, but must be in plain sight at all times, never concealed unless ammo and gun are separated completely in two separate areas, one out of reach totally. Of course campus rules are law while on campus, but outside campus this should all apply.
I have done ALOT of research on open carry because it is what i do every day. Not everyone is comfortable with it but i rather carry open then carry a sharp piece of metal…… my opinion of course :P but this is a great option.
i always encourage people to do their own research so they can be fast and confident in what they are doing.
Any questions, feel free to message me!
+1
I'm under 21 (but over 18) and I open carry semi-frequently. I work for a land surveying company part-time and am often out in Western Nebraska by myself and carry a handgun for protection from critters. (Particularly the mountain lion and snake variety)
I have yet to OC in Lincoln but I am trying to work up the courage to do it. I feel like it could be a good thing to have a young "hip" guy doing it.