NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: Neeco on January 24, 2013, 12:12:30 PM
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I am heavily considering purchasing this kit, as it is onsale at Midway and RCBS is offering a $50/500 bullet rebate on it.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/937051/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-master-single-stage-press-kit (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/937051/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-master-single-stage-press-kit)
I would greatly appreciate ANY pro's and con's to this system for a beginner.
If this topic has been covered before, kindly point me in the appropriate direction.
Thanks!
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That is what I started out with. Pretty good for the price.
Scale sucked, but I also have a trickler and other scales, so no biggie.
Hand primer is kinda difficult with small rifle primers, but just takes practice.
Forget the lube kit, just use the hornady aerosol.
Keep and eye on the powder measure, seems to creep up a bit with extruded stuff. Not a real big deal as long as you are paying attention.
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That is what I started out with. Pretty good for the price.
Scale sucked, but I also have a trickler and other scales, so no biggie.
Hand primer is kinda difficult with small rifle primers, but just takes practice.
Forget the lube kit, just use the hornady aerosol.
Keep and eye on the powder measure, seems to creep up a bit with extruded stuff. Not a real big deal as long as you are paying attention.
Is there a better, more complete setup for under 500? What about spending the coin for a Dillon 550 or 650?
Remember I am new, and I take things SLOW especially when my fingers/eyes/wife are concerned. Also, should I just buy the 3 or 4 major brands of reloading books? Or is there one that sticks out above the others?
Thanks for your (highly regarded) input, wallace11bravo.
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This was the kit used at the reloading clinic.
The press is solid and will out last you.
The scale is indeed a bit on the icky side.
The powder measure is good.
The lube stuff is personal preference. A can of aerosol vs the lube kit that lasts 106571230956823094 times longer etc.
You'll need to buy a set of calipers, die set, and shell holder as a bare minimum. Other highly suggested would be a way of cleaning brass (vibrating tumbler thing or whatever).
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Hornady, Speer, and Lee's books are all great, and I do suggest picking up at least two of them. One is fine, but it helps to have mores. Can be an expense later if you like.
I've got a Hornady LNL AP ... you'll have to buy a shell plate (typically $30-$40, although 223 shell plates are selling for over $100 on ebay right now lol), and a set of dies. I'd also suggest a $5 primer flip tray to save your sanity.
You'll still need calipers, a scale (the little $35 MTM digital is great imho), and a way to clean brass.
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Neeco.......
Poke unfy until he gives you his assessment of the Hornady LNL kit.
My thoughts on RCBS Supreme:
>Press is way too Big and Hunky unless you wish to swage bullets or reform cases into other calibers.
>Hand primer device is the Oddest Hand Primer around. [Hornady much better. Don't get any Lee.]
>5-0-5 scale is poor piece of equipment. MTM Digital for $25-30 much better.
Final Thoughts on RCBS Supreme:
>Kit has been discontinued by RCBS. Still some on shelves.
>Components are poorly matched; kit as reloading center not well designed.
>But....Better to buy some kind of kit than all parts 1-by-1.
>It will work for you, but better stuff [ask unfy about LNL] is around.
Not griping Too Loud; Heck, I've got one. But some of the pieces aren't the Pick of the Litter.
Suggestion: Google the web reloading forums. Plenty of comment out there.
sfg
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Hornady, Speer, and Lee's books are all great, and I do suggest picking up at least two of them. One is fine, but it helps to have mores. Can be an expense later if you like.
I've got a Hornady LNL AP ... you'll have to buy a shell plate (typically $30-$40, although 223 shell plates are selling for over $100 on ebay right now lol), and a set of dies. I'd also suggest a $5 primer flip tray to save your sanity.
You'll still need calipers, a scale (the little $35 MTM digital is great imho), and a way to clean brass.
So. Let me see if I can get a list of necessities down. Also, I will need a reference to start researching primers, bullets, and powder. I will edit as I add them in.
RCBS Supreme Kit - $319 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/937051/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-master-single-stage-press-kit#ReviewHeader (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/937051/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-master-single-stage-press-kit#ReviewHeader)
Case trimmer - $108 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/817007/rcbs-trim-pro-2-manual-case-trimmer-kit (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/817007/rcbs-trim-pro-2-manual-case-trimmer-kit)
Digital Calipers - $30 http://www.lowes.com/pd_293883-16878-53247_0__?productId=1242475&Ntt=calipers&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dcalipers&facetInfo= (http://www.lowes.com/pd_293883-16878-53247_0__?productId=1242475&Ntt=calipers&pl=1¤tURL=%3FNtt%3Dcalipers&facetInfo=)
9mm Die set - $40 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/885350/lee-deluxe-carbide-4-die-set-9mm-luger (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/885350/lee-deluxe-carbide-4-die-set-9mm-luger)
.223 die set - $30 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/776391/lee-deluxe-3-die-set-223-remington (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/776391/lee-deluxe-3-die-set-223-remington)
9mm shell holder (universal holder ok?) - $4 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/283141/lee-universal-shellholder-19-9mm-luger-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/283141/lee-universal-shellholder-19-9mm-luger-40-s-and-w-10mm-auto)
.223 shell holder -$8 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/797095/rcbs-shellholder-10-17-remington-204-ruger-223-remington (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/797095/rcbs-shellholder-10-17-remington-204-ruger-223-remington)
case cleaner - $50-100 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/811447/frankford-arsenal-ez-ultrasonic-case-cleaner-110-volt (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/811447/frankford-arsenal-ez-ultrasonic-case-cleaner-110-volt)
digital scale - $40 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/713049/mtm-mini-digital-reloading-scale-750-grain-capacity (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/713049/mtm-mini-digital-reloading-scale-750-grain-capacity)
Primers - I have no idea need to get a ballpark to compare too.
Bullets - I have no idea need to get a ballpark to compare too.
Powder - I have no idea need to get a ballpark to compare too.
miscellaneous goodies - ?
These are not the exact items, just a general list of easily found items. I can search for and change out anything.
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I started with that kit about a year ago. It was great to learn on. That's about it IMO. The list you put together will get you going. The spent primer catcher was worthless. Most of my primers ended on tE floor. The best upgrade I did to the press was changing out to the lnl bushings. I haven't looked around at any other kits, but if you are looking to buy all those other accessories, I would almost recommend buying a progressive. You would spend a little bit more, but you might enjoy it better.
I don't load any rifle, but when I sat down on my rock chucker, I would spend 4+hours to load my 9/45acp. I just shot too much to keep up with a single stage. So this last month I decided to sell my rcbs and bought the lnl ap from hornady. Let me tell you, after getting everything setup, I wish I would have gone progressive right away.
I've always tried to order my powder and primers in bulk to help dissipate the hazmat fee most places charge. I used Powder Valley Inc a lot for my pistol stuff. I used 1911 forum a lot for powder recommendations and used their popular loads. Right now I just have the hogdon manual, but will be buying the hornady and possible the Lyman here soon.
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Neeco.......
Poke unfy until he gives you his assessment of the Hornady LNL kit.
My thoughts on RCBS Supreme:
>Press is way too Big and Hunky unless you wish to swage bullets or reform cases into other calibers.
>Hand primer device is the Oddest Hand Primer around. [Hornady much better. Don't get any Lee.]
>5-0-5 scale is poor piece of equipment. MTM Digital for $25-30 much better.
Final Thoughts on RCBS Supreme:
>Kit has been discontinued by RCBS. Still some on shelves.
>Components are poorly matched; kit as reloading center not well designed.
>But....Better to buy some kind of kit than all parts 1-by-1.
>It will work for you, but better stuff [ask unfy about LNL] is around.
Not griping Too Loud; Heck, I've got one. But some of the pieces aren't the Pick of the Litter.
Suggestion: Google the web reloading forums. Plenty of comment out there.
sfg
I actually had the Hornady LNL kit bookmarked as the first kit I looked at.
This one, right? http://www.midwayusa.com/product/679228/hornady-lock-n-load-ap-progressive-press (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/679228/hornady-lock-n-load-ap-progressive-press)
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Poke unfy until he gives you his assessment of the Hornady LNL kit.
I've always adored the Hornady LNL AP. Have loaded close to 6000 rounds of pistol ammo in it. On average, including the time it takes to load primer tubes, it takes me about 20minutes to load 100 rounds. Nice and slow and safe while doing it :).
I've noted three things about it.
1) the primer shuttle cam had to be adjusted out a bit, it wasn't moving far enough to grab a primer
2) i had to adjust the indexing paws at the bottom of the press so that it would achieve a positive progression consistently.
3) the primer seating plug possibly doesn't like me. when seating a primer in the LNL ... after you pull the handle towards you (causing the ram to lift), and return it to it's at 'rest position' (thus lowering the ram) ... you then push / lean into the handle a little bit which further lowers the ram. the primer seating plug is a little thing that then pushes a new primer into place. i've had to put a washer between the press body and ram head so that the primer seating plug 'pushes a little deeper into the case'... otherwise it wasn't seeming to set seat primers all the hway.
(1) and (2) are just standard adjustments with standard tools that's nothing fancy.
(3) is irksome. I should really contact Hornady about it.... although the thing is working just fine with the washer in place.
With that said, I've also been loading ammo on the little Lee $30 C press that was also at the clinic. It does just fine.
Case trimmer: for pistol brass it's not really a necessity unless you buy factory new brass from starline or something. Factory new brass tends to be long and needs to be trimmed.
For rifle ammo, a case trimmer is probably a good idea just to keep necks from getting too long.
If you want the $108 or similarly priced trimmers (I've got a Foster's myself, love it)... or just an $10 trimmer with pilot and stuff is up to you.
The 9mm shell holder is listed as the same shell holder for 40s&w everywhere I've looked. Looking at case specs, you're at 9.96mm for the 9mm at case head / face, vs 10.77mm for the 40s&w. The groove is 0.02mm difference in diameter. Thus, in a shell holder which will center based on the groove, they'll center over the primer hole etc :)
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LNL AP on rifle ammo: i've not attempted it yet.... can't comment sorry :(.
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oh, (1) and (2) were one time adjustments, haven't had to touch it again yet. the indexing paws at the bottom are metal on metal friction based, so they will eventually need to be replaced, but i've not had to even adjust them again yet.
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Since I was not quite ready to go progressive I was looking at this one: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/749997/hornady-lock-n-load-classic-single-stage-press-kit (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/749997/hornady-lock-n-load-classic-single-stage-press-kit)
It appears to be similar to what we used in class but is the Hornaday and comes with the lock and load bushings. Read the scale (digital in this one) is not the best either.
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Die bushings (from hornady or others) are indeed neat / handy.
With most dies it's not a terrible concern ... most have a way of a securing the locking nut into position. Hornady and RCBS have a small hex head screw for doing so. I think Lee might be only one that doesn't. So... for the bushings - you'll save time in die changes outs. But in general, once ya set the locking ring in any die, you're good to go (assuming you can get the die out of the press).
I do happen to like the Hornady hand primer compared to the RCBS. In particular, you can swap out the primer trays without having to remove the shell holder.
The RCBS / Hornady hand primers do have an easy one up on the Lee one --- the Lee requires special shell holders, the RCBS / Hornady do not.
Can't speak as to my opinion of the Hornady digital scale, haven't used it. Granted, the cheapy MTM digital scale works fine, I can't imagine the Hornady one being worse ?
I will note, concerning the differing powder measures.... I dunno how RCBS handles pistol vs rifle loads (or rather, low capacity vs high capacity). The Hornady powder measure has two 'metering insert' options. One for "pistol" and one for "large". They're just different sized plugs / holes. For everything up to about 15gr, I use the 'pistol' insert, for anything more I use the 'large' (ie: when doing 19-20gr for 357mag).
The swap out is easy enough, mind you.
Hornady does offer higher end "inserts" for their powder throwers/measure things if that's of any interest. Basically the depth of the insert can be more fine tuned and "lock in place" better.
I've not had issues with "creep out" as someone mentioned with their RCBS powder thrower... but... I still check before loading and check every 100 rounds to make sure it's throwing correctly anyway.
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Oh, the thing to note about bushings -- unless you're going to take them off of the dies and put on other dies... you'll be needing to buy more bushings for every die set you get etc. Kinda obvious, but just something to think about.
Personally, I love bushings :)
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Went to Scheels and got the RCBS Supreme Master kit.
I talked to some guys there and they all used it starting out. Kinda forces you to slow down and pay attention and get in a systematic routine. Just my style. I don't need to pump out 1000 rounds an hour, or a week for that matter. I am happy with taking my time and covering the rounds I shoot a month (about 500 of each).
With that said, I also picked up the RCBS Case trimmer, the Hornady Book, a primer pocket trimmer/cleaner/deburrrrrrrrer, a case cleaner (I got the Quick-n-EZ kit with the tumbler. Just cleaned my first set of 9mm and it worked FANTASTIC!) and the primer flipper.
Now to just find dies, shell holders, pick up a set of Calipers from Lowes, and get a digital scale.
I am reading the books and trying to find the consumables needed to at least get what I have on hand loaded. I need to count but I have at least 1k .223 and at least that in 9mm.
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So now the consumable search and testing.
I am going for what I have used already:
AE 55gr Varmit .223 - I equated this to:
Hornady #2267 FMJBT W/C
Speer #1044 FMJBT
A Small Rifle primer - Honestly i don't know much about primers yet... Speer says CCI 500 and Hornady says WSR. There has to be other options that are comparable and easier to find.
9mm - 115gr Win/Fed bulk boxes.
Hornady - #35557 FMJRN or #35567B FMJ FN
Speer - #3995 TMJ RN
Again a Small Pistol primer
Powder - There are a ton listed in both books, and I just need a "recommended" powder for standard range, practice, and maybe a match or two. But MOSTLY paper and steel targets so nothing super accurate, etc...
I guess, I just need to do more research. Like all things web related, there is SOOO much data out there that you are overwhelmed.
What I am looking for is a light load to reduce recoil, that is accurate enough for steel targets.
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Shell holder shouldn't be a problem.
Dies might be (a problem that is).
If you get Lee dies, they come with a shell holder, and yes it'll work in your RCBS press.
If you're doing pistol, definitely for sure get tungsten dies so you can skip lube. What was used at the clinic was tungsten.
And you'll find you'll be shooting a lot more once ya start loading your own :)
For primers, Guns Unlimited in Omaha should have Winchester primers, and possibly CCI. GU also had the MTM digital scale.
Rifle and 9mm powders will undoubtedly be quite different - rifle will be slower burning, pistol faster etc... so prolly own't find overlap.
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With that said, I also picked up the RCBS Case trimmer, the Hornady Book, a primer pocket trimmer/cleaner/deburrrrrrrrer, a case cleaner (I got the Quick-n-EZ kit with the tumbler. Just cleaned my first set of 9mm and it worked FANTASTIC!) and the primer flipper.
Sorry I did not see this sooner: The Lee case trimming set-up, when chucked into a 3/8" drill is faster and foolproof .... and 1/10the cost.
You have already pent the money on the RCBS trimmer, but if you want to save time. look into the Lee ....
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Sorry I did not see this sooner: The Lee case trimming set-up, when chucked into a 3/8" drill is faster and foolproof .... and 1/10the cost.
You have already pent the money on the RCBS trimmer, but if you want to save time. look into the Lee ....
I didn't see the Lee, and I will look into it. Thanks for the information.
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Shell holder shouldn't be a problem.
Dies might be (a problem that is).
If you get Lee dies, they come with a shell holder, and yes it'll work in your RCBS press.
If you're doing pistol, definitely for sure get tungsten dies so you can skip lube. What was used at the clinic was tungsten.
And you'll find you'll be shooting a lot more once ya start loading your own :)
For primers, Guns Unlimited in Omaha should have Winchester primers, and possibly CCI. GU also had the MTM digital scale.
Rifle and 9mm powders will undoubtedly be quite different - rifle will be slower burning, pistol faster etc... so prolly own't find overlap.
Shell holder and die sets are sold out everywhere I have searched, including obscure internet stores...
If anyone has a lead on 9mm or .223 dies/holders, I would be willing to trade anything I have (which isn't much) or would prefer to buy outright.
I will talk with GU about the primers and what not. Thanks!
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I will talk with GU about the primers and what not. Thanks!
SFG has informed me that GU is possibly out of primers at the moment. A few weeks ago they had boxes and boxes and boxes lol.
Give'em a call first, if you're far away.
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SFG has informed me that GU is possibly out of primers at the moment. A few weeks ago they had boxes and boxes and boxes lol.
Give'em a call first, if you're far away.
They had primers earlier this AM and a 9mm die set. Headed there now. Is there someone I should talk to specifically?
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its been an hour, i'm possibly too late.
just get proper primer sizes (and magnum or not) and go for it.
the rcbs/hornady dies will be tungsten.
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its been an hour, i'm possibly too late.
just get proper primer sizes (and magnum or not) and go for it.
the rcbs/hornady dies will be tungsten.
Not to late, just got done eating. Going now, haha.
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Discussion re:
proper primer sizes (and magnum or not)
During the Last Obama Election-Induced Shooting Stuff shortage (early 2009), many reloaders who couldn't find Small Pistol Primers anywhere were using Small Magnum (yes....oxymoron) Piston Primers in place of WSPs, as specified in the reloading manual.
They reduced their powder charges down toward the left end of the load ranges, say from 4.0gr to maybe....3.5gr. Pop in a WSM primer and go.
Anybody with fingers left who has ever done so and wishes to share the results???
[It's OK to tell about A Guy You Know Who Did It.]
sfg
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Discussion re:
During the Last Obama Election-Induced Shooting Stuff shortage (early 2009), many reloaders who couldn't find Small Pistol Primers anywhere were using Small Magnum (yes....oxymoron) Piston Primers in place of WSPs, as specified in the reloading manual.
They reduced their powder charges down toward the left end of the load ranges, say from 4.0gr to maybe....3.5gr. Pop in a WSM primer and go.
Anybody with fingers left who has ever done so and wishes to share the results???
[It's OK to tell about A Guy You Know Who Did It.]
sfg
GU has primers. Picked up 1000 of WSP and WSR. But no dies. Anyone want to rent me a set? Hahaha
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GU has primers. Picked up 1000 of WSP and WSR. But no dies. Anyone want to rent me a set? Hahaha
As it turns out, I was handed MAGNUM WSP primers. Anyone want to trade for standard WSP?
I swear I can't win...
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i can swap ya a box of winchester standard pistol primers for the magnum pistol primers if ya like.
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WSPs vs. WSPMs
Don'tcha wish Winchester would come up with some distinctly different graphics for different primers??
Primer mixup happens a lot. An awful lot. Especially when the primers are held behind the counter in retail stores.
sfg
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Anyone have experience with the Rainer 115gr LeadFree Jacketed Round Nose bullets?
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Anyone have experience with the Rainer 115gr LeadFree Jacketed Round Nose bullets?
No particular experience myself.
The 'lead free' is a misnomer, it is indeed lead. Rainier bullets suggest loading them as if they were lead only (not jacketed). I've had no problems in doing so with berry's bullets or even pushing them faster / hotter.
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So, I was able to pick up everything else I need to start reloading.
Got a pound of Power Pistol and a pound of IMR 8208-XBR.
Also found some 60gr SP Hornady .223 bullets.
Anyone have any experience with anything listed? Specifically, whether or not you like the powders I have purchased to test out.
Again, I am new to this so I don't have any preconceived notions about ANY powders. I was just happy to find some to start working up some loads.
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You have the tools. You have the materials. You have the reloading book(s).
Start building up loads yourself and form your own opinion!
Can you get consistent holes in paper with your given primer/powder/bullet/rifle combo ... preferably at a velocity / charge you prefer ?
If you can, then yay!
You're going to undoubtedly consume all of your given powder (just so you get your money's worth). IMR 8208-XBR is a thermally stable powder so you'll probably enjoy it and would probably make a decent hunting load powder (where it might be freezing out etc).
Just a co-instructor reminder: make sure your 223 primers are seated deep enough. They should be at least a little shallow from the case head. AR15's with their floating firing pin can have an issue with slam fires if your primers aren't seated deep enough. This doesn't mean you need to crush the primer within the brass, but they should be recessed a bit :).
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You have the tools. You have the materials. You have the reloading book(s).
Start building up loads yourself and form your own opinion!
Can you get consistent holes in paper with your given primer/powder/bullet/rifle combo ... preferably at a velocity / charge you prefer ?
If you can, then yay!
You're going to undoubtedly consume all of your given powder (just so you get your money's worth). IMR 8208-XBR is a thermally stable powder so you'll probably enjoy it and would probably make a decent hunting load powder (where it might be freezing out etc).
Just a co-instructor reminder: make sure your 223 primers are seated deep enough. They should be at least a little shallow from the case head. AR15's with their floating firing pin can have an issue with slam fires if your primers aren't seated deep enough. This doesn't mean you need to crush the primer within the brass, but they should be recessed a bit :).
Thanks for the info!
I need to get started on loading. Ha! I just need time.
I'll be sure to check the primers on the .223
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I'll be sure to check the primers on the .223
Set primed empty brass primer down on / case mouth up on something that is ultra flat.
The brass should be stable and not rock / pivot / etc at all. Basically, if the primer aint seated deep enough and is protruding just a little bit, it'll be wonky. You can use this as well as the 'finger pad feel' method.
CD jewel cases do pretty well, possibly even an old cd. Avoid something that might have slight deviations like wood grain etc. Ya want mirror flat and not warped at all.
Do note that sometimes the case heads of brass do get bent just a lil or something similar that might make this test a little weird... just keep an eye out and use common sense and err on side of safety.