NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: Neeco on February 04, 2013, 02:13:04 PM
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Hoping to hear from those that have/do load .223
The batch I made had about 2.208x-ish COAL. Fired out of the Sig M400, with Hornady 60gr SP and 23gr of IMR 8208 XMR (the low end of the table).
The Max in the Hornady and Speer book is 2.260.
I need to do a ton more reading on ballistics/accuracy and reloading in general, but is my assumption of COAL, that as long as it is not past the max, and seats well in the chamber, that the difference between 2.214 (my MAX COAL) and 2.201 (my MIN COAL) is insignificant, and the only reason to find the perfect headspacing is for precision shooting?
I know many factors come into play with COAL, such as case length, bullet length and what not, so I would imagine that a variance of a 100th or two, and well under MAX, wouldn't be much of a game changer for a technique/plinking round?
The 25 I loaded this weekend shot fine out of my Sig M400, and while the shell kick out was less, the weapon cycled all 25 and locked back after the 25th. Perceived recoil wasn't significantly any different than the AE 55gr rounds from the manufacturer. Accuracy was just as good shooting freehand at 25 yards in 20 degree weather.
Thanks in advance.
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Seating a bullet further in the neck on for example a compressed charge will increase chamber pressure it is ok to extend per mag or internal mag but how do your primers look are they flatten and is your strike on it deeper than normal did it bump fire if not this time good but as an overall keep your rounds at reloading spec's do not try to be a mad scientist.
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most ar mags max length is 2.249 as to fit and cyc any longer will not allow it cyc fluidly to ask for problems
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COAL doesn't determine headspacing, just the distance the bullet has to jump to the lands. Ideally you want that as short of a jump as possible, which means seating the bullet farther out. Too long and you can jam the bullet into.the rifling which can cause a dangerous pressure spike. In most mag fed guns you will end up too long to fit into the mag before you reach that point.
A rimless case like .223 headspaces off the case shoulder. Tighter headspace (within reason) will generally lead to better accuracy. If the shoulder is bumped back too far it can cause excessive headspace. I saw that once with a member here. He was having primers back out on a rifle he just bought. Since it was factory ammo we thought his gun had excessive headspace, but after measuring the unfired cases he found the shoulder was way too.far back. Once.he reloaded them with good dies the problem went away.
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most ar mags max length is 2.249 as to fit and cyc any longer will not allow it cyc fluidly to ask for problems
Seating a bullet further in the neck on for example a compressed charge will increase chamber pressure it is ok to extend per mag or internal mag but how do your primers look are they flatten and is your strike on it deeper than normal did it bump fire if not this time good but as an overall keep your rounds at reloading spec's do not try to be a mad scientist.
I use standard PMAGS and had zero issue with feeding or cycling. Should I increase the COAL up to max? Or is a consistent COAL what you are after? The primers are seated deep enough and the case will sit completely flat on a flat surface (as I think UNFY mentioned in another thread). The primer strikes look no different than those of factory rounds. Nice and consistent.
I am certainly not trying to be a "mad scientist", I am only trying to enjoy the joys of saving a bit of money and reloading. I DO NOT wish to blow off a booger picker or worse. Hence the reason I am asking.
Thanks for your input!
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COAL doesn't determine headspacing, just the distance the bullet has to jump to the lands. Ideally you want that as short of a jump as possible, which means seating the bullet farther out. Too long and you can jam the bullet into.the rifling which can cause a dangerous pressure spike. In most mag fed guns you will end up too long to fit into the mag before you reach that point.
A rimless case like .223 headspaces off the case shoulder. Tighter headspace (within reason) will generally lead to better accuracy. If the shoulder is bumped back too far it can cause excessive headspace. I saw that once with a member here. He was having primers back out on a rifle he just bought. Since it was factory ammo we thought his gun had excessive headspace, but after measuring the unfired cases he found the shoulder was way too.far back. Once.he reloaded them with good dies the problem went away.
Maybe I need to learn my terms better. I thought headspacing was the distance from the shoulder to the chamber and the distance from the bullet to the rifling. I now see that its only the shoulder to chamber.
So maybe my question is about bullet seating more than headspacing.
Is there a test you can preform to find out exactly how far to seat the bullet? Or does it not need to be that specific. Especially on a training/plinking round where accuracy is not the upmost importance.
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If you're really concerned about bullet jump to rifling grooves...
Take a piece of unprimed empty brass that's been sized (even just neck sized is fine if that's what you're working off of). Put a bullet in it by hand... make it stick out long. You want the bullet to not just fall in the brass, but also to not have an "impossible" to move it kind of resistance.
Carefully and slowly chamber the round by hand so that it's in full battery (admittedly easier with a bolt action gun).
Carefully and slowly eject the round by hand (don't let it go flying off).
What should have happened: when chambered into full battery, the bullet should have been pushed against the barrel / rifling / chamber throat ... and then further pushed down into the case. You might even just barely see the rifling grooves marks on the bullet itself.
The cartridge you just cycled will be your absolute max length to seat THESE PARTICULAR bullets at IN THIS PARTICULAR GUN. As mentioned above, you'll actually wanna back that off by a couple thousands of an inch (ie: seat a little deeper) to avoid pressure spikes. If you switch bullets or gun, re-run the test if you're going for as little 'jump/run' as possible.
Too much 'run to the rifling grooves' will affect accuracy, resting on the rifling grooves and you'll have pressure problems most likely.
With the above said... the general rule of thumb is that seating deeper causes higher pressure, seating further out decreases pressure. This isn't always the case, but it's a good rule of thumb. You'll note there are several of these 'general' rules of thumbs that aren't absolutes :).
Keep an eye out on your primers, how the gun behaves, and what the brass looks like afterwards.
Be safe (your gun, yourself, and the spent brass will let you know).... and if in doubt, back things off a bit.
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PS!!!
Congrats on your first hand loads of 223! :)
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
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If you're really concerned about bullet jump to rifling grooves...
Take a piece of unprimed empty brass that's been sized (even just neck sized is fine if that's what you're working off of). Put a bullet in it by hand... make it stick out long. You want the bullet to not just fall in the brass, but also to not have an "impossible" to move it kind of resistance.
Carefully and slowly chamber the round by hand so that it's in full battery (admittedly easier with a bolt action gun).
Carefully and slowly eject the round by hand (don't let it go flying off).
What should have happened: when chambered into full battery, the bullet should have been pushed against the barrel / rifling / chamber throat ... and then further pushed down into the case. You might even just barely see the rifling grooves marks on the bullet itself.
The cartridge you just cycled will be your absolute max length to seat THESE PARTICULAR bullets at. As mentioned above, you'll actually wanna back that off by a couple thousands of an inch (ie: seat a little deeper) to avoid pressure spikes. If you switch bullets, re-run the test if you're going for as little 'jump/run' as possible.
Too much 'run to the rifling grooves' will affect accuracy, resting on the rifling grooves and you'll have pressure problems most likely.
With the above said... the general rule of thumb is that seating deeper causes higher pressure, seating further out decreases pressure. This isn't always the case, but it's a good rule of thumb. You'll note there are several of these 'general' rules of thumbs that aren't absolutes :).
Keep an eye out on your primers, how the gun behaves, and what the brass looks like afterwards.
Be safe (your gun, yourself, and the spent brass will let you know).... and if in doubt, back things off a bit.
Perfect. I will give that a shot.
Now what about COAL. Is there a way to test headspacing? A measuring guide? Or another one of those "unless you're trying to shoot a bees wing at a mile" stick within this certain range....
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I use standard PMAGS and had zero issue with feeding or cycling. Should I increase the COAL up to max? Or is a consistent COAL what you are after? The primers are seated deep enough and the case will sit completely flat on a flat surface (as I think UNFY mentioned in another thread). The primer strikes look no different than those of factory rounds. Nice and consistent.
I am certainly not trying to be a "mad scientist", I am only trying to enjoy the joys of saving a bit of money and reloading. I DO NOT wish to blow off a booger picker or worse. Hence the reason I am asking.
You maybe happily suprised and the normal book set length as and longer that the mag allows you will have issues .. plz don't take offense to the mad scientist remark lets leave that to unfly ;)
Thanks for your input!
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COAL is a general safety for regulating pressure and stuff.... as well as for reliable feeding from magazines and stuff.
With my above post relating to head spacing issues ... it will undoubtedly cause relations to COAL as well (seating deeper/lighter will change COAL).
It's possible that if you tune your seating depth for ever so slight run to the grooves, that the cartridge will be too long to cycle through magazines and stuff.
Experiment, 5-10 rounds at a time.... just barely nudging things as you go.
And honestly ...
Grab your starting load, shoot it from a bench with rests / bags and stuff.
Stick within the recipes and keeping an eye on your weapon / yourself / brass for pressure issues and stuff... while adjusting powder levels 5% higher at a time...
I'm willing to bet that outside of ultra precise benchrest shooting... your weapon will far out perform you as far as accuracy.
And, when you go to change powder charges of seating depths... always do it in groups of 5-10 rounds ... and if you make up SEVERAL batches of different charges or depths, make sure everything is clearly labeled somehow... and take pen / paper with you to the range to take notes... and shoot at different targets with each load.
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Perfect. I will give that a shot.
Now what about COAL. Is there a way to test headspacing? A measuring guide? Or another one of those "unless you're trying to shoot a bees wing at a mile" stick within this certain range....
The Hornady Compartator works well get the curved one but again you're limited on max length in your AR...period unless you feed them 1 at atime.
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Ha, no offense taken. But I still don't understand this sentence: "You maybe happily suprised and the normal book set length as and longer that the mag allows you will have issues".
:D
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PS!!!
Congrats on your first hand loads of 223! :)
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
One of us....
Thanks! I was a bit nervous chambering the first one. I won't lie, it had its own special type of "puckering" involved.
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Ha, no offense taken. But I still don't understand this sentence: "You maybe happily suprised and the normal book set length as and longer that the mag allows you will have issues".
:D
A buddy loads 50 gr barnes varmint gernades and his AR 16'' barrel will group 1.25'' at 300 meters.. almost just as good as my Savage .204 26'' SS Bullbarrel which is .50 at 300 meters...
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PS - if anyone was worried about offending me with 'mad scientist' - fear not ... I am not :).
Concerning the copper plated rounds I've been fiddling with - I have yet to actually fire any of them. I've not gotten to the point of getting a reproducible result out of the plating process so I'm not gonna even try feeding any through a weapon yet.
I've been knee deep in work lately (causing much cursing at another company...) and this past weekend and upcoming week/weekend I'll be continuing some "spring-ish cleaning". I've got ideas on the plating, but just need to implement them (time consuming).
Tool making - meh - whatever. Every hand loader will break down and make their own tools eventually :). Still need to fiddle with filling LNL primer tubes faster.
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Neeco, I have tried every COAL for Hornady 55SP in .223 and the Hornady recommended 2.200" works very well for me.
I observed no increase in accuracy by loading them longer, and since I use mostly the 55 PSP w/cannelure, the cannelure, when centered on the neck of a case trimmed to 1.750" gave me a COAL of 2.200" give or take a few thousandths
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Neeco, I have tried every COAL for Hornady 55SP in .223 and the Hornady recommended 2.200" works very well for me.
I observed no increase in accuracy by loading them longer, and since I use mostly the 55 PSP w/cannelure, the cannelure, when centered on the neck of a case trimmed to 1.750" gave me a COAL of 2.200" give or take a few thousandths
Perfect! Thank you!
I assume you trim every case to 1.750 for the first reload, do you trim for consecutive loads or discard once max is reached?
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I trim everything that the cutter will hit on my Possum Hollow trimmer and it is set @ 1.749"
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Midway USA's 55gr Dogtown HP's over 25.7gr of H335 (or WC844), 18" 1/9 BCM SPR stainless barrel with Miculek brake are wicked deadly on P-dogs. I use a COL of 2.210. I group them at under 1" @ 300 meters. My MV is right at 3100fps.
Like Dan, after sizing I run all my brass through my trimmer (RCBS TrimPro with the 3-way cutter) to 1.750. If it gets trimmed, great. If it didn't need trimmed no big deal.
If you are tuning a round to a specific gun it is a good idea to find the distance to the lands as unfy describes above. I split the case neck with a dremel disk so that the bullet could slide in a little easier but still have enough retention to get a good measurement. My distance to the lands for this particular rifle is 2.226 which is kind of tight IMO. I tested several different lengths from 2.19 up to 2.220 and found the sweet spot at 2.210. It took quite a while to work this load up first getting close to MOA with the powder charge then fine tuning with COL, a small charge change and more COL tweaking. Sometimes people get stuck on not finding a good COL and blame the bullet or even the gun when maybe all they need is a powder adjustment. When testing loads I ALWAYS shoot trough a chronograph. That way I can see if a flier had some other issue that changed the velocity. Working up the "perfect" load can be quite time consuming, lots of note taking, a fair amount of frustration, and a TON of patience but the satisfaction you get when it is dialed in is pretty cool. And it makes P-dog thumping a lot more fun when you know you brought a tack driver to the game. For this load I weigh each charge on the digital scale to exactly 25.70.
I can put out around 100 of these an hour.
My plinking load is Amscore or Hornady 55gr FMJBT W/C (whatever I found on sale bulk) over 24.1gr H335 / WC844. COL on these is 2.20 and work acceptably in any of my 5.56 / .223 platforms. I'm right at 2750fps with this load out of a 16" carbine length setup. It's not sub-MOA at 100 yds but plenty good for general plinking and I can crank out around 300 hundred an hour. I don't weigh every charge but I do verify every 10th or 15th load on the digital scale, if I am throwing + or - .1gr I don't bother adjusting the measure. I use the RCBS Uniflow with the small cylinder and metering rod and have found it to be very accurate with almost no deviation in charge weight.
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Midway USA's 55gr Dogtown HP's over 25.7gr of H335 (or WC844), 18" 1/9 BCM SPR stainless barrel with Miculek brake are wicked deadly on P-dogs. I use a COL of 2.210. I group them at under 1" @ 300 meters. My MV is right at 3100fps.
Like Dan, after sizing I run all my brass through my trimmer (RCBS TrimPro with the 3-way cutter) to 1.750. If it gets trimmed, great. If it didn't need trimmed no big deal.
If you are tuning a round to a specific gun it is a good idea to find the distance to the lands as unfy describes above. I split the case neck with a dremel disk so that the bullet could slide in a little easier but still have enough retention to get a good measurement. My distance to the lands for this particular rifle is 2.226 which is kind of tight IMO. I tested several different lengths from 2.19 up to 2.220 and found the sweet spot at 2.210. It took quite a while to work this load up first getting close to MOA with the powder charge then fine tuning with COL, a small charge change and more COL tweaking. Sometimes people get stuck on not finding a good COL and blame the bullet or even the gun when maybe all they need is a powder adjustment. When testing loads I ALWAYS shoot trough a chronograph. That way I can see if a flier had some other issue that changed the velocity. Working up the "perfect" load can be quite time consuming, lots of note taking, a fair amount of frustration, and a TON of patience but the satisfaction you get when it is dialed in is pretty cool. And it makes P-dog thumping a lot more fun when you know you brought a tack driver to the game. For this load I weigh each charge on the digital scale to exactly 25.70.
I can put out around 100 of these an hour.
My plinking load is Amscore or Hornady 55gr FMJBT W/C (whatever I found on sale bulk) over 24.1gr H335 / WC844. COL on these is 2.20 and work acceptably in any of my 5.56 / .223 platforms. I'm right at 2750fps with this load out of a 16" carbine length setup. It's not sub-MOA at 100 yds but plenty good for general plinking and I can crank out around 300 hundred an hour. I don't weigh every charge but I do verify every 10th or 15th load on the digital scale, if I am throwing + or - .1gr I don't bother adjusting the measure. I use the RCBS Uniflow with the small cylinder and metering rod and have found it to be very accurate with almost no deviation in charge weight.
I really wish I was on some land to do some Prairie Dog huntin! I am happy to just be able to shoot though, so no complaints.
I will play with my COAL once I get all my brass trimmed to 1.750. That is the first step.
So at the expense of being told: "Take our class!" I am going to try and set out my routine... Please let me know if you see something horribly wrong.
1- Case cleaning - I use the EZ Cleaner and the corn media that came with it. Tumble the appropriate number or cases for 1-2 hours with a tablespoon of supplied cleaner/polisher.
2- Inspect brass for deforms/inconsistencies. Count and sort.
2a - Lube (Was using supplied oil based lube, also picked up some ONE-SHOT.)
3 - Deprime/Resize
4 - Trim (new step, will trim all to 1.750)
5 - Hand prime and set in blocks for powder distribution.
6 - Setup powder throw. Set throw to within .2 of desired charge. Set seating die.
7 - Throw powder, weigh, trickle if necessary, funnel into case. Immediately seat bullet.
8 - Check COAL.
9 - Mark load data in notebook and on round case.
wash, rinse, repeat.
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Just a note on the class:
We cover an introduction to pistol reloading. Mostly plinking type loading etc. We don't dive into benchrest rifle loading, that could be a week long class heh. The goal of the class is to get new loaders' feet wet and simply loading their own ammo safely.
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Just a note on the class:
We cover an introduction to pistol reloading. Mostly plinking type loading etc. We don't dive into benchrest rifle loading, that could be a week long class heh. The goal of the class is to get new loaders' feet wet and simply loading their own ammo safely.
What are the tolerated variances in things such as grains of powder when brewing a plinking round? Is a .3 swing acceptable? I would think that you want it as close as possible to your desired weight, but knowing the Unfilow isn't perfect, and we really can't weigh EVERY throw, there will inevitably be some variance.
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but knowing the Unfilow isn't perfect, and we really can't weigh EVERY throw, there will inevitably be some variance.
Why not its part of the learning curve..... on pistol with a .45 .3 is enough to be concerned about. with a total of appx 3.6 grs of a certain type of powder.
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Throw powder, weigh, trickle if necessary
^^^This
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What are the tolerated variances in things such as grains of powder when brewing a plinking round? Is a .3 swing acceptable? I would think that you want it as close as possible to your desired weight, but knowing the Unfilow isn't perfect, and we really can't weigh EVERY throw, there will inevitably be some variance.
A 0.3gr swing on a 30gr charge should be acceptable for plinking ammo -- assuming 30.5gr is below the max charge listed.
A 0.3gr variance for a 4-6gr pistol charge is generally not a good thing.
If your powder thrower is being inconsistent there are a few likely causes.
User error
This would be typically not having a uniform / standard operation of the throwing mechanism. There is a 'knock knock' pattern you should get into when throwing charges. Basically, every force / timing of manipulating the powder thrower handle should be the same. It'll take repetition / practice, but you'll get the hang of it eventually.
With progressive presses, this means raising / lowering the ram in a consistent fashion as well (which can be interesting when cases think differently of being sized heh).
With a hand activated powder thrower, you can try flicking / tapping the drop tube or cam with every charge (or twice, once on drop once on refill). Might help. Might not :).
Static electricity
Is powder sticking to the metering cam ? Or the drop tube ? Grab some Bounce or other anti-static dryer sheet and rub it over stuff. If you're indoors, particularly during the winter with the heater running and no humidifier, static build up is very easy to accumulate.
Moisture
If it's hot and muggy in your loading area, powder might wanna try to clump or similar.
Powder choice
Some powders simply don't like to be volumetrically measured. Some of the slower burning rifle powders with long rod shapes can make this a bit worse too. Nothing you can do about it, but you should eventually get a rhythm or setup that should make drop nicely.
Powder measure creep
Some powder throwers / measures will creep on you. Verify powder drop every X number of throws (10, 20, 50, 100, whatever you discover is a good number after a while of using your thrower).
I've not done enough work with the cheapy Lee Perfect Powder Measure yet... but it was wanting to be off by up to 0.4gr when working with a rifle ammo. I need to fiddle with it far more to see if I can make it purr better. But due to inconsistency I ended up measuring each charge I dropped out of it, and trickled some powder in if it was necessary.
On a side note, a shouldered rifle case can make a fine substitute for a powder trickler. Just put some powder in it and slowly rotate the case to coax powder out.
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9 - Mark load data in notebook and on round case.
Just a tip - a extra fine point sharpie can write small numbers on the primers quite well. I prefer that over marking up my brass. It doesn't hurt anything to mark the brass but you will not get all of it off on your next cleaning cycle. Little things like that tend to gnaw at me.
If I am testing loads from 24.1 up through 25.5 in .2 increments for example I just mark the primer with a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, .1, .3, .5 the "." before the last 3 increments represents the jump from the 24 to 25 range. Might not work for everyone but it works well for me.
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As for throwing charges with a powder measure, if you are using an RCBS Uniflow or other similar metal bodied measure you need to scrub the living ^&%$ out of it first. The uniflow has an oil coating on everything that will really mess with you. Take it apart, scrub the cylinder and rod with and old tooth brush, and be sure to scrub the inside of the body of the measure with a bottle brush and make sure you get everything super clean.
For static control a quick rubdown of all dried parts (especially the hopper inside and out, and drop tube, anything plastic) with a fresh dryer sheet will eliminate almost any static problem. I did that to my uniflow right out of the gate and have had no static problems with it at all over the last year using various different powders.
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As for throwing charges with a powder measure, if you are using an RCBS Uniflow or other similar metal bodied measure you need to scrub the living ^&%$ out of it first.
I totally spaced that off in my response lol.
I always take apart every piece of equipment I get (dies/powder measure/etc) wipe'er down with a lint free cloth, hit it with One Shot, wipe it down again, and another light hit of one shot heh.
The light (or heavy) bit of oil / grease that comes from metal tools needs to go away, definitely.
Make sure any scrubbing is with a soft plastic bristle brush, a cheapy soft bristle tooth brush is a good idea. Don't scratch things up :).
Just like taking a factory new gun and cleaning it get rid of gunk, gotta do same with metal reloading equipment.
Nice catch, 00Buck :)