NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: JimP on July 28, 2009, 09:40:37 PM
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I was contemplating going to the Appleseed shoot in GI in sept, and was thinking about the price of fodder for 'ol Betsy...... even handloaded, .270 gets spendy..... not to mention thats a lot of recoil (wear and tear on me) and heat (wear and tear on ol' Betsy).
..... and No, I'm not going to use my Marlin mod 60....... seems to me that's cheating.
...... I looked at CMP (Garands), but feeding those is about as spendy as .270......
...... and I was at TBH today...... looked at a used AR....... I never liked them much when I had to carry them for our Most Benevolent Uncle......... BUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTT...... I liked that one. Not everything about it, but I understood how it worked, which is more than I can say about the Garand (still WANT! Soooooo many guns, so little cash!). If I HAD to pick up a fighting rifle, It'd have to be an AR, 'cause that's the one I'm familiar with....... sorta.
That's where y'all come in, Great NFOA Hive Mind: Tell me about your AR ownership experience- Colt? (spendy?) DPMS? Pre/Post Ban? Flat-Top? MIL-spec chamber (5.56/.223Win?) Inform me, please.
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Flat top carbine with a good aftermarket trigger, with an Acog TA01, 'nuff said.
Right now seems the time to buy, market dropped a bunch since February, get one HK mag and a few cheapies, you'll be happy. Check out AR15.com for all the discussion, you will start a s*&^storm on here.
I have three flat top carbines, and have had many more, from a JP rifle to an AR15 pistol and an AR10, flat tops and A2 uppers, they are all fun, just make sure you put a good single stage trigger in it. Most are 5.56 chambered, but get a 1/9 twist for 55 grain bullets, unless you want to shoot 68 grain and up, then 1/7.
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Definitely go with a flat top upper, either a 5.56 or Wylde chamber. Barrel length and contour are very subjective. I like light weight A2 or Govt. profiles 16-18" long. Brands I like are Rock River Arms, Sabre Defence, Stag Arms , Daniel Defense, Larue Tactical, Bravo Company Manufacturing(BCM).
I like 2 stage triggers on the scoped rifles, and modified single stage triggers on the 16". I use a Nikon Scope, an EOTech halographic sight with flip up iron backup sights, one rifle just has iron sights.
You may be getting the idea... the possibilities are just about endless... that's why we call it a disease
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I am unfamiliar with flat-tops...... I would prefer to start my addiction with a GP gun: iron sights....... a chamber that would work with both 5.56 or .223 (thats the Wylde, right?)
The .223/ 5.56 seems on the low end of the Ooomph Scale, as far as rifles go...... I'm thinking shorter barrels would lose some of the velocity that Eugene Stoner sold the .gov on......
Q: Heavier bullets (term is relative, I know) require the faster (1 turn in 7) twist ..... 55 grains will still print reasonably well with that?
Q: I was issued both M-16A1 ands A2s at various times..... what would a comparable AR run?
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Wylde chambers are a hybrid that is more accurate than 5.56, but can still handle 5.56 ammo. It is not recommended to fire 5.56 pressure ammo in a .223 chambered rifle.
16" barrels can be very accurate, and you have to get a special tax stamp and BATFE approval for any barrel under 16". That is called an SBR (for short barreled rifle).
1/9 twist is perfect for 55gr bullets, and can handle up to 69 grain without issue. Many1/9 barrels don't have a very exact rifle twist, so they may actually be 1/8.5", which would handle 75gr bullets, or or 1/9.5" that would not. That is why one must test the barrrel for stabilization of the longer heavier bullets to see how they group. 1/8 twist is usually found in the stainless steel barrels, and the mil. spec barrels have a 1/7 twist
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And Yes 55gr bullets are fine in a 1/7 twist
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Thanks, Dan!
I was just poking around arfcom...... that place is HUGE. I think I know what I want..... now to find it for a price I can afford......
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Get a flat top with a removable carry handle and a railed gas block with a flip up front sight, that way when you do put a scope or optical sight on it (and you will as your eyesite fades), the front sight does not ghost in the scope.
Stick with the 556 chamber for simplicity, as the wylde chamber isn't that common on low to mid end ARs. 55 grains will still shoot fine in a 1/7 twist, but lighter bullets will tend to overstabilize in it. You will get everything you need in a 16 inch carbine versus a 20 inch rifle. The current M4 is a 16 inch barrel, but the 18 inch has a lot going for it, too.
Dan is right on the target rifles, with 2 stage triggers being great for targets.
I like a 16 inch fluted barrel, just for weight. One of my Wilson Combats is a UT15, has the 16 inch fluted barrel and a JP single stage trigger set at three pounds. The other Wilson is the m4 version, barrel is heavier and not guaranteed to be as accurate.
Do not buy a Vulcan Arms, Olympic or Hesse. I do not recommend DPMS either, but some will. I recommend Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt, YHM, Smith and Wesson, Wilson Combat, Les Baer, JP Enterprises, Rock River, Larue Tactical, Stoner, LWRS, POF (Patriot Ordinance Factory), and LMT (Lewis Machine and Tool). I am sure I have missed some that someone else will be along to chime in on. A major difference in them is how well they were finished.
You can do just about anything you want, how much do you want to spend? There are dozens, if not in the hundreds, of AR15 manufacturers, but only a handful of places that makes lowers, and only a few more that actually make the uppers. Most uppers are proof marked, and an internet search on ar15.com will tell you where they were made. The upper and lower blanks are sold to the companies to finish them and engrave their names and serial numbers.
Find one slightly used, and save your money for all the upgrades, like a Hogue grip, Larue Tactical, Knights Armament, Surefire, YHM or Daniel Defense quad rail, A gas buster charging handle, LMT Sopmod or Magpul collapsible stock and an A2 buffer.
My God, why did you get me started?
I do have a Colt 6920 for sale, 16 inch m4 profile barrel, shot around 200 times. $1400 is the price.
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Thanks, Dan!
I was just poking around arfcom...... that place is HUGE. I think I know what I want..... now to find it for a price I can afford......
Tell us, we may be able to help.
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Well just to be difficult I just (ok last fall) built mine in 6.8 Rem Mag, works as a deer rifle as well as a nice shooter for fun and whatever else comes along....
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6.8 Rem Mag? I have heard of 6.8 SPC, .260 Remington, even the .264 Winmag.......
..... I'd like to keep the cartridge limited to 5.56/.223 ...... others may have an unobtainium component in the future......
1,400 beans is a little steep for me, 'rat, even if it IS a colt. It's probably worth every penny, but I don't have that many pennies.
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dont even stress...
i caught my disease in jan/feb when availability was bad.... (i think thats why i wanted one so much)
16" is plenty! i saw a s&w flattop magpul with flip up sights on gunbroker this morning for $999! thats a lotta AR for your $. I still want a colt tho...
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Jim your right It's the 6.8 Rem SPC, teaches me to post before I've had my fill of coffee.
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Maybe later for the 6.8...... I want a GP rifle that eats what the .gov feeds theirs.
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If you search good enough and use good, lightly used parts, you can put together a real nice AR for close to $700.
I built my "beater AR" from a $95 new DPMS lower, $55 new lower parts kit, $75 barely used bolt/carrier assy, $60 used Magpul stock, $45 used Colt A1 upper, $110 lightly used Sabre Defense midlength 1/7 chrome-lined barrel, and about $40 for misc. handguards, front sight, gas tube and other small parts. So, less than $500 in a rifle that shoots like a dream. It's pretty hard to find parts that cheap since the election, but I'm sure you could find it all for around $700 these days.
They are very easy to work on and modify/customize to whatever style or purpose that you want. Just by changing out your upper receiver half, you can go from a heavy-barreled varmint/target rig to a "tacticool-ready-for-the-zombie-invasion" rig to a lightweight, basic carbine setup in mere seconds.
There is no cure for BRD. 8)
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Don't buy a 6.8 SPC as a first AR. Ammo costs are prohibitive.
IMO, there's no reason to buy an A2 (carry handle) upper. Flat tops are more versatile and have a higher resale value. You can always put on a detachable carry handle, backup iron sights (BUIS), a scope, or an RDS.
A 5.56 chamber will shoot .223 and 5.56 safely. So will a Wylde chamber.
If you want a fighting rifle, IMO, there's no better deal right now than the Bravo Co 16" uppers. Colt 6920s have come down a bit in price lately. The new Daniel Defense carbines also look to be a pretty good deal.
Do not worry about brand first. First decide on what type of rifle you want. Fighting rifle? Lightweight? SBR? SPR? Recce? A2-style? A4-style? M4-style? Big game hunting? Varminter? 3-gun? CMP? Will you ever use the rifle to defend your life or the lives of others?
If you're patient and careful, you can piece together a decent rifle for $800-$1000. The sky is the upper limit though.
I'll be shooting my Spike's Tactical ST-22 .22LR AR at the GI Appleseed.
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Don't buy a 6.8 SPC as a first AR. Ammo costs are prohibitive.
Not an issue, as I handload...... plus, the 6.8 uses .277 bullets, no? I already keep those in stock.....
....still, I want a 5.56/.223......
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Any problem with
IMO, there's no reason to buy an A2 (carry handle) upper. Flat tops are more versatile and have a higher resale value. You can always put on a detachable carry handle, backup iron sights (BUIS), a scope, or an RDS.
Detachable carry handles ever....... detach (at the worst possible time?)?????
If flat-tops (A-4?) have a higher resale value, then I should be a pick up the older carry handle style (A-2?) for less, no?
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The rifle I looked at had a detachable carry handle.... but a normal (to me-Army vet) A-2 front sight set up....... would that not obstruct the scope (if you took the handle off and put a scope on......)?
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The front sight will ghost in the scope, meaning it will have a darker area there, but does not completely obstruct the view. You can replace it with a low profile or a railed gas block, then put on a flip up front sight if you want. And the rear detachable carry handles fit on good and tight with two large screws, they do not come off that easily.
Trust me, you want a flat top.
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Ah you started the AR discussion without me! :-[
Oh, well time to jump in! First off, I saw someone say the current M4's have 16" barrels. This is false. The military issue M4's have 14.5" barrels. These, however, are considered short barreled rifles by the ATF and require a tax stamp and then they impose all kinds of fun limitations on you. So I'd recommend going 16" for the best mix between velocity and manueverability, at least, in a fighting rifle.
The first thing that you really should think about before anything else is what kind of gas system do you want? Carbine length like the M4? Mid length (which is in between the carbine and rifle length gas systems, it provides a more compact weapon than rifle length but less harsh recoil and slower cycling rate than carbine length)? Or Rifle length like the M16? There are pro's and con's to all three. A lot of people seem to prefer the mid-length system for a 16" barrel. If you're going with a long barrel of 18"+, I don't see any reason not to go with the rifle length system. Some carbines will need a heavier buffer to smooth out how they run, although my 16" barreled carbine gas rifle was fine stock. If you go the SBR route, you will def have some issues with running a standard buffer and extractor. And of course, you could go gas piston, if you want to.
If you're looking to make a SPR (Special Purpose Rifle) or a serious match/long range accuracy weapon, I'd go with a longer barrel in 1:7 without a doubt. 20" is considered the best for that application, although some go with 24". You certainly gain some extra velocity out of the 24" but it makes for a VERY long weapon compared to most ARs.
That said, 1:9 barrel twist is just fine for basically all shooting you'd ever need to do. I know many people that have successfully stabilized 77gr match ammo with 1:9. That isn't to say 1:7 isn't an improvement, it is, but if you find a rifle you love with 1:9, don't let it force you away. 1:9 and 1:7 will easily shoot M193 (55gr) and M855 (62gr) which are the US military issued rounds.
I would say without a doubt always get a chrome-lined barrel. They will provide you with far easier maintenance and longer life than other barrels.
If you want to go with a pre-built full AR, I'd go with a Colt 6920. If you want to buy a pre-built upper, bravocompanyusa.com has some of the best stuff out there. Companies I'd avoid buying pre-built rifles from: Olympic Arms, DPMS, Vulcan. They're all well known for having poor quality control and letting a lot of "crap" sneak out to consumers. Now, before I get flamed, that DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN'T HAVE A GOOD QUALITY RIFLE FROM THEM. It simply means that it's a gamble, and I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather pay an extra couple hundred bucks and know I'm getting a quality weapon. I have a Bushmaster which I bought before I knew a whole lot about AR's, but it's treated me well. If I could do it over, I'd probably buy a Colt.
Like the others said, I'd always go and get a flat top rifle. As far as the carry handle ever coming off, it never did on mine before I replaced it, and I never even used tools I just kept it finger tight with the thumb screws. You can certainly use a screw driver to tighten it well beyond finger tight. In addition to that, you can use a little bit of blue loctite if you want to be doubly sure it stays. I loctite everything that could potentially fall off because that could be catastrophic if I ended up having to fight for my life.
However, Jim, if you really want an A2 then get an A2. We can't tell you what you want. We're just trying to help you get the best rifle you can for your money. A lot of people like the retro M16's with the triangular handguards. It's not for me but we all have our niche. Some of us slap all kinds of unnecessary "tactical" accessories on our guns (you might put me in that category :P), others like the KISS philosophy. I like both a lot (seems contradictory, doesn't it?) so I'm going to actually be putting together another rifle and leaving it very "plain jane."
Anyway, just thought I'd share a few thoughts. If you want to get an A2, then just go get one man! You know what you want, we're just trying to help you get something that you'll love when you get it and as you find things you don't like about it you'll be able to make changes to the gun without having to start over and buying a whole new gun. The flat-top gives you that kind of versatility.
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Just on the principle that "Flat-tops have better resale value" because err-body wants an A-4....... that should make an A-2 cheaper, right? I have 5 kids and a gun collection to feed, after all........
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I think you will find that an A2 is a pain in the rear to put optics on, and if you have a virulent strain, you WILL put optics on
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I think you will find that an A2 is a pain in the rear to put optics on, and if you have a virulent strain, you WILL put optics on
Agreed. I will most likely be swapping mine to flat-top configuration when I decide what optic I want to use.
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Don't buy a 6.8 SPC as a first AR. Ammo costs are prohibitive.
Not an issue, as I handload...... plus, the 6.8 uses .277 bullets, no? I already keep those in stock.....
....still, I want a 5.56/.223......
Price the brass, it's quite a bit more expensive. Also, I *think* 6.8 can't use all .277 bullets - only certain weights and shapes - most of which are more expensive than the 55gr and 62gr pills .223 uses.
I'd weep if I had to pay for 6.8 ammo for a carbine class.
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Any problem with
IMO, there's no reason to buy an A2 (carry handle) upper. Flat tops are more versatile and have a higher resale value. You can always put on a detachable carry handle, backup iron sights (BUIS), a scope, or an RDS.
Detachable carry handles ever....... detach (at the worst possible time?)?????
If flat-tops (A-4?) have a higher resale value, then I should be a pick up the older carry handle style (A-2?) for less, no?
I've never seen a busted carry handle.
A used A2 upper will probably go for less, but, IMO it is less useful. If you plan on never, EVER mounting an optic, it should be fine. But a red dot or scope is easier and more comfortable to mount to a flat top.
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The rifle I looked at had a detachable carry handle.... but a normal (to me-Army vet) A-2 front sight set up....... would that not obstruct the scope (if you took the handle off and put a scope on......)?
As LitlRat mentioned, you most likely won't see it. It depends on the magnification of the scope. I don't see the the FSB when using a 3x or 4x scope. Not sure if you'll see it with a 1.5 or 2x.
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Colt LE6920's can be had right now for $1100-$1200 and that is about the best price you have ever been able to get on them. I built my AR with a Sabre Defence upper but had the Colt been available for this price I would have been all over it like white on rice. Plus now that they are using mil-spec diameter FCG pins on all rifles it really is a no brainer. I am not a Colt fanboy at all but they are just too good to pass up at this price. I would buy 10 of them if I could.
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Colt LE6920's can be had right now for $1100-$1200 and that is about the best price you have ever been able to get on them.
Where? How long do you have to wait for them?
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Impact Guns (online) has 'em for $1400......
I looked around Omaha today....... off the shelf there were DPMS model A-15 for $900 (Scheels) to $990 (TBH).... I noted everyplace I stopped had these...... as ubiquitous as 10/22s, those....... Guns unlimited had a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 for $1100,,,,,, No carry handle, just a detachable rear sight. Cabela's had a BushMasterM4A3 for $1100 .... I liked the Bushmaster and M&P .......
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..... The rifle I was looking at at TBH was gone........ as was the M1 I was initially looking at.....
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http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_140/products_id/60386
LE6920 in stock at Bud's for $1,250.
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From Bud's :
"The Colt LE6940 Monolithic Advanced Law Enforcement Carbine is an evolution of the 6920. This rifle feature Colt's new monolithic upper receiver. In addition to an uninterrupted full-length front rail, this upper receiver allows for a free-floated barrel. Both rifles feature a gas-block mounted front flip-up sight with bayonet lug and a MaTech backup rear sight. The barrel is Colt's standard 16.1" chrome lined M4 barrel with an A2 flash hider."
This description does not match the picture.......
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That is a picture of the 6920, the holy grail of AR's, according to those who drink the Kool-Aid. I personally think that there are much better ARs available for just a few more dollars. Les Baer, Wilson, Noveske (the cat's ass of ARs), and a few others for the standard ARs, then you get into some of their high end models, and the sky is the limit on price and features.
I have one of these 6920s, the description is of the 6940, which is a copy basically of the LMT (Lewis machine and Tool) MRP (Monolithic Rail Platform). If you are not familiar with LMT, they make a very high quality weapon at a decent price.
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Hey Jim,
For what it's worth, I love my Bushmaster. And I've heard a lot of stories of a lot of people putting thousands of rounds through them with no problems. While not generally regarded by many as "the top tier," Bushmaster makes a quality product.
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well i figured id throw in my love for the S&W MP15. i got my M&P15T from cabelas for a lot, but i am very picky and would only buy an AR with certain things. that was the first AR that had met my criteria. but anyways, ive shot tons through it.....around 2,000-3,000 rounds, both steel and brass cased ammo. no misfires, no bad ejections. im super-duper happy with this gun.
i also teamed that gun up with a spike's tactical havoc flare launcher and when thats not on the rail, it has a front vertical grip. i also added a reflex sight.
basically, what ive heard from the 'net is this: stick with the top quality AR's. they will hold up and never let you down, after all you get what you pay for.