NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: shooter on October 17, 2014, 09:31:00 PM
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Ive seen a lot of talk about people wanting to build a rifle with the 80% lower,
my question is, what do your kids do with these after you are gone?
I figure at the worst, they would just transfer to your next of kin, not sure if they can sell them?
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Why couldn't they be sold??
As long as they are a legal configuration its not an issue.
ATF strongly suggests they be serial numbered, however, it is NOT a requirement.
The only potential issue I see is convincing someone its legal with no serial unless you have some sort of documentation of who built it and that it was never numbered.
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Im not sure, I remember something about paying a tax if you are building a firearm? maybe im wrong, but wanted to ask before I do anything,
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Manufactures pay a tax on guns ( once they hit 50 guns ).
Individuals do NOT have to pay the tax on guns they build.
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Nothing to stop you from putting your own serial number on an 80% lower when you build one. That might make it easier for your survivors to sell, assuming they're still legal at that time. If they're not, NO serial number might be better. ;D
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Nothing to stop you from putting your own serial number on an 80% lower when you build one. That might make it easier for your survivors to sell, assuming they're still legal at that time. If they're not, NO serial number might be better. ;D
That's my understanding...they must be marked with SN and manufacture to be sold and your original intent was not to resell. Your serial number could be anything you want. I thought about making lowers for my three kids and make the SN there birthdates. Sticking them in the back of the safe and when they are old enough they cab build there rifle how they please.
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That's my understanding...they must be marked with SN and manufacture to be sold and your original intent was not to resell. Your serial number could be anything you want. I thought about making lowers for my three kids and make the SN there birthdates. Sticking them in the back of the safe and when they are old enough they cab build there rifle how they please.
Please quote your source that "requires" serial numbers on homebuilt guns, under ANY circumstances.
I will save you the trouble, there are NO requirements for HOMEBUILDERS to serialize their guns*
*Note: By definition a homebuilder is NOT a manufacturer and is not building with the intent of selling.
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Please quote your source that "requires" serial numbers on homebuilt guns, under ANY circumstances.
I will save you the trouble, there are NO requirements for HOMEBUILDERS to serialize their guns*
*Note: By definition a homebuilder is NOT a manufacturer and is not building with the intent of selling.
I am speaking on selling or transferring any homebuilder firearm. Inorder transfer any firearm you must comply with the markings required of a manufacturer. I am on my phone so hard to quote. But here is the ATF
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html#commercial-parts-assembly
Look under engraving
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From your link:
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs).
However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen.
Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.
As I posted earlier, ATF suggest serializing, but does NOT require it.
As for selling or otherwise transferring, 27 CFR 478.92, as a LAW only applies to MANUFACTURERS and once again ATF says "should" as apposed to the verbage in the law that says
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
So as stated above, ATF suggest but does NOT require it.
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From your link:
Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs).
However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen.
Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.
As I posted earlier, ATF suggest serializing, but does NOT require it.
As for selling or otherwise transferring, 27 CFR 478.92, as a LAW only applies to MANUFACTURERS and once again ATF says "should" as apposed to the verbage in the law that says
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
So as stated above, ATF suggest but does NOT require it.
Thank you for quoting it for me....
I take Should be as you Shall be. I understand how you are reading the ATF statement.
I am basing my statements on every thread that i have read on the subject has someone state that you must comply with standard serializing methods of you want to sell a home built weapon.
Here is a thread from a forum that is specific to homegun smiths...
http://www.homegunsmith.com/archive/T17698.html (http://www.homegunsmith.com/archive/T17698.html)
I am not saying you are wrong or I am right but this is how i have interpuited it when i was researching finishing a 80% lower.
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I would agree with tstuart on this one; yes the language is should be, but the ATF would enforce it like it says shall be if the firearm in question was to transfer and the courts would side with the ATF.
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I agree.
A good general rule of thumb when dealing with government regs and documents is to read them in the most restrictive way possible as, regrettably, that will be how the drones will use them.
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I think People are getting hung on the wording semantics here.
If you build one for personal use only....then your considered a homebuilder.
But if you try to sell the same weapon.....then you have become and are now considered a manufacturer at that point.
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I think People are getting hung on the wording semantics here.
If you build one for personal use only....then your considered a homebuilder.
But if you try to sell the same weapon.....then you have become and are now considered a manufacturer at that point.
Umm no...................
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Couple of things. 1) semantics matter, especially in not wanting to go to prison. 2) I don't have an understanding or have seen a consensus on what to do with a home built lower after you die and want to pass it on to your children. So, an answer of "ummm no" without a reasonable response doesn't really further the debate in a meaningful way. Maybe you could elaborate, not just in the homebuilder and not selling it, but more to what the OP was enquiring about.
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The term "Manufacturer" as most people consider it is a licensed manufacturer and they produce many guns per year (someone earlier said 50 was the cut off number) so a "Homebuilder" that decides to, or because of death it automatically, transfers would not be a "Manufacturer". But in this case the "Homebuilder" would become a manufacturer even if they only manufactured one firearms in their lifetime. I can see nothing that says a homebuilder must have any markings on what they build as long as it is only them that posses and owns what they built; but as soon as that rifle goes to be transferred to someone else either by a) an active decision to sell the firearm, or b) because of death of the homebuilder the rules would change because the "Homebuilder" becomes a manufacturer and the firearm requires markings. If it is option a the manufacturer/homebuilder would simply need to add the appropriate markings before making the sale, if it is option b the "Homebuilder's" next of kin could be considered guilty of receiving an illegal firearm.
Is there a mechanism to avoid any charges, my guess is that upon discovering the firearm if the next of kin contacted police and turned it over there would not be any charges, but an investigation into what the "Homebuilder" had been doing would take place.
The recommendation to put markings (serial number of some type, who manufactured and when) on a firearm you manufacture as a "Homebuilder" is as much about protecting yourself and your family from unneeded attention as it is about following all the rules and regulations, because truthfully they tend to have conflicts with themselves. Nothing of these marking needs to be reported to anyone (but you should keep a record of some type for yourself, especially if producing more than one).
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The GCA does not require a SN for a homebuilder to dispose of a gun. So long as you were not building it with the intent to sell, and only decided to sell at some later time, you are not a manufacturer.
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Couple of things. 1) semantics matter, especially in not wanting to go to prison. 2) I don't have an understanding or have seen a consensus on what to do with a home built lower after you die and want to pass it on to your children. So, an answer of "ummm no" without a reasonable response doesn't really further the debate in a meaningful way. Maybe you could elaborate, not just in the homebuilder and not selling it, but more to what the OP was enquiring about.
Ummm read the entire thread its all there already
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The 50/year I mentioned is mearly the number at which a licensed manufacturer must pay taxes on said manufactured guns, and is irrelevant as far as hombuilders go, because, if a guy is building that quantity, at some point very quickly ATF will be contacting said feller and telling him to get a license!!
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For what its worth, I NEVER said a person SHOUDNT serialize a homebuild, in fact I cant think of a single good reason NOT to.
To my way of thinking, if I had the ability to build a 80%, I most certainly would mark it, if for no other reason than to prove that I did it all by myself ( with a lil help from my friends LOL )
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The term "Manufacturer" as most people consider it is a licensed manufacturer and they produce many guns per year (someone earlier said 50 was the cut off number) so a "Homebuilder" that decides to, or because of death it automatically, transfers would not be a "Manufacturer". But in this case the "Homebuilder" would become a manufacturer even if they only manufactured one firearms in their lifetime. I can see nothing that says a homebuilder must have any markings on what they build as long as it is only them that posses and owns what they built; but as soon as that rifle goes to be transferred to someone else either by a) an active decision to sell the firearm, or b) because of death of the homebuilder the rules would change because the "Homebuilder" becomes a manufacturer and the firearm requires markings. If it is option a the manufacturer/homebuilder would simply need to add the appropriate markings before making the sale, if it is option b the "Homebuilder's" next of kin could be considered guilty of receiving an illegal firearm.
Is there a mechanism to avoid any charges, my guess is that upon discovering the firearm if the next of kin contacted police and turned it over there would not be any charges, but an investigation into what the "Homebuilder" had been doing would take place.
The recommendation to put markings (serial number of some type, who manufactured and when) on a firearm you manufacture as a "Homebuilder" is as much about protecting yourself and your family from unneeded attention as it is about following all the rules and regulations, because truthfully they tend to have conflicts with themselves. Nothing of these marking needs to be reported to anyone (but you should keep a record of some type for yourself, especially if producing more than one).
Thanks AAllen for contributing further to the discussion. That was my understanding of the law before this thread, but it was muddled by some extra side discusion that wasn't directed at the meat of the inquiry.
newfalguy101, like phantom pointed out the debate started focusing only on whether or not a homebuilder is also a manufacturer. I think we all know the answer to that based off of the definition of a homebuilder (as in for his/her own use and not transferring), but the OP specifically asked how an involuntary transfer (due to death) would take place for said homebuilder. AAllen cleared the mud and I agree with you that some sort of markings would be nice, not only to be able to prove you built it, but to keep track of them individually if you made more than one. You could also make a serial number stand for an insult to gun grabbers, like a guy on here did with a home built silencer. Props to that guy again, btw! :)
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With respect, AAllen is incorrect.
The links/ copy and pasted segments from the ATF REGULATIONS do NOT support the position that a homebuilt gun needs serialized to legally transfer.
As I posted earlier, ATF "suggests" serializing, but does NOT require it.
ATF also says It "should" be marked when transferred, however "should" does NOT equal "MUST".
When the regs REQUIRE something, it is written that way.
Laws in the United states should be read exactly as written, because they mean exactly what they say.
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Laws in the United states should be read exactly as written, because they mean exactly what they say.
And yet, "should" is not "must". According to the courts.
And often, laws are not clear, do not mean what they say, and are not enforced or prosecuted according to what they say, but instead based on what regulation has been created based on that law, even if said regulation does not match the law. Or based on what the particular law enforcement individual needs the law to say to gain leverage or traction in a given situation, whether it will survive a court case or not.
Whether or not I agree with any particular person in this thread---the safest way to ensure a lack of legal issues is to place some sort of serial marking on said firearm. Whether that is required is a separate issue.
I realize that I'm not actually answering the original question from the OP (or even later variations of that question) but there seems to be an argument going on in which people are arguing about two different things---one of which is what the strict letter of the law says (which, unfortunately, is KNOWN to be as grey area), and what MAY happen (which, unfortunately, is based upon whether or not some official person wants to give you grief about something).
The difference between "should" and "must" plus the lack of official definition of "manufacturer" (as opposed to "homebuilder") means the the grey area is something that can be used against you.
IMO.
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Thanks JTH, I agree with you. All of us that have payed attention to gun laws for a period of time have seen lots of convictions where the person did not break the letter of the law, but they did end up breaking what some bureaucrat said the policy is. What said bureaucrat says is the policy does not even need to match the written policy for there to be a conviction.
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As I posted earlier, ATF "suggests" serializing, but does NOT require it.
ATF also says It "should" be marked when transferred, however "should" does NOT equal "MUST".
When the regs REQUIRE something, it is written that way.
Laws in the United states should be read exactly as written, because they mean exactly what they say.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/should (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/should)
auxiliary verb
1.
simple past tense of shall.
2.
(used to express condition):
Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3.
must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency):
You should not do that.
4.
would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt):
I should think you would apologize.
The Government is notorious for vague wording everywhere because it is written by lawyers and the English language is just not concise like you want it to be. Note that according to the dictionary "Should" actually does equate to "Must".
My experience, and it appears to be the same experience with others in this thread, is that you are better off reading government regs in the most restrictive way to avoid issues of miscommunication and misreads when dealing with them.
I didn't know much about what the OP asked in the first place, but what I have since read is that you are better off with that serial number on the lower, even though the regs don't say you need it, than to leave it off. Planning for the future means that we sometimes do things just because we expect something that "can't happen" to happen. That's why we always check that the gun we know is unloaded is truly unloaded before we hand it to someone or clean it.
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The "should" language is in an FAQ, not a regulation or a law. It has no force.
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The "should" language is in an FAQ, not a regulation or a law. It has no force.
Correct. This is what the ATF wants people to do, not what it can compel them to do.
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Correct. This is what the ATF wants people to do, not what it can compel them to do.
Well, this is a first, a lawyer and I saying the essentially the same thing!!
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Well, this is a first, a lawyer and I saying the essentially the same thing!!
Two lawyers actually. It could be a sign of the apocalypse.