NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: 20nickels on October 01, 2010, 07:48:48 AM
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Surrender your handgun in a traffic stop?
Some of you have voiced that this has happened in NE. and surrounding states. This has taken me off guard as I've never heard of it. Furthermore I'm not sure I would unless law required it.. Does anybody know the law on this?
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TITLE 272, NEBRASKA ADMINISTRATIVE CODE, CHAPTER 21
NEBRASKA STATE PATROL
Concealed Handgun Permits
021 PROCEDURES FOR PEACE OFFICERS AND EMERGENCY SERVICE
PERSONNEL ENCOUNTERING A HANDGUN
021.01 Peace officers or emergency services personnel may determine whether it is
necessary to secure the handgun for the safety of any person present,
including the peace officer or emergency service personnel, and may order the
permit holder to secure or surrender the handgun.
021.02 The handgun shall be returned to the permit holder before the contact is ended
if the peace officer or the emergency service personnel determine that there is
no threat to anyone?s safety and that the permit holder is physically and
mentally capable of possessing the handgun.
021.03 If emergency services personnel determine that the permit holder is not
capable of possessing the handgun or if the permit holder is transported to
another location for treatment, the handgun shall be turned over to a peace
officer as soon as it is feasible to do so. The peace officer shall provide the
permit holder with a receipt for the handgun which included the make, model,
caliber, and serial number of the handgun.
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Sure as crap.. it's there! I knew about them securing it during an emergency of course but just didn't recall or imagine them using (abusing?) the privilege for a routine traffic stop. The story from Iowa where the officer handed it back to the permit holder completely stripped down and unloaded is just ridiculous.
Regarding "021.03" from the previous post;
So it's only emergency services personnel (EMT's?) not peace officers that can determine the permit holders capability to further possess his handgun?
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I think the "grey area matter is " peace officers is the clincher on that matter, yup its the way of the world in some of the officers eyes where they have to think on their feet.
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If I remember correctly from my CHP class EMT's qualify as someone that you must both advise about your CHP and surrender to if requested. Of course at the end of the encounter they are required to return it to you as long as there is no reason to retain it or arrest you.
Ron
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It's Right There in 021.01:
021.01 Peace officers or emergency services personnel may determine whether it is
necessary to secure the handgun for the safety of any person present,
including the peace officer or emergency service personnel, and may order the
permit holder to secure or surrender the handgun.
sfg
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Regarding "021.03" from the previous post;
So it's only emergency services personnel (EMT's?) not peace officers that can determine the permit holders capability to further possess his handgun?
I believe that paragraph is speaking specifically about if you are transfered by EMS to the hospital (a prohibited place). Our policy on my department is to secure the weapon by giving it to a LEO on scene or if we find it later in the ambulance to secure it in the unit and advise dispatch to have an officer meet us at the hospital so we may give it to them at that point in time.
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Regarding "021.03" from the previous post;
So it's only emergency services personnel (EMT's?) not peace officers that can determine the permit holders capability to further possess his handgun?
I believe that paragraph is speaking specifically about if you are transfered by EMS to the hospital (a prohibited place). Our policy on my department is to secure the weapon by giving it to a LEO on scene or if we find it later in the ambulance to secure it in the unit and advise dispatch to have an officer meet us at the hospital so we may give it to them at that point in time.
Famous566
So, it is your policy to secure it no matter what? The law says that you should only secure the weapon if it will interfere with the safety of people present. Just because a person has a gun does not immediately mean things are not safe. I would think that you may be overstepping your authority if you secure every gun just because you can.
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Regarding "021.03" from the previous post;
So it's only emergency services personnel (EMT's?) not peace officers that can determine the permit holders capability to further possess his handgun?
I believe that paragraph is speaking specifically about if you are transfered by EMS to the hospital (a prohibited place). Our policy on my department is to secure the weapon by giving it to a LEO on scene or if we find it later in the ambulance to secure it in the unit and advise dispatch to have an officer meet us at the hospital so we may give it to them at that point in time.
Famous566
So, it is your policy to secure it no matter what? The law says that you should only secure the weapon if it will interfere with the safety of people present. Just because a person has a gun does not immediately mean things are not safe. I would think that you may be overstepping your authority if you secure every gun just because you can.
Dave - At that point it appears Para 021.03 of Title 272 would kick in:
021.03 If emergency services personnel determine that the permit holder is not
capable of possessing the handgun or if the permit holder is transported to
another location for treatment, the handgun shall be turned over to a peace
officer as soon as it is feasible to do so. The peace officer shall provide the
permit holder with a receipt for the handgun which included the make, model,
caliber, and serial number of the handgun.
If you're in the back of an ambulance as a patient headed for a medical facility the medical personnel would have no choice but to secure the weapon since if you held onto it once you reached the medical facility you would be in violation of State law if you retained it since they are specifically prohibited.
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Upon further thought on this subject, if I was a law enforcement officer and I came upon an accident scene and one of the parties involved in the accident had a weapon I think I'd secure it as well until it was determined the individual could safely handle the weapon. Even if the person "seems" o.k. at the time you don't know if there's been any head trauma, shock, alcohol involved, drug use, etc. Once the person has been "cleared" I'd return their weapon to them. I'm just trying to put myself in the officer's shoes - and looking out for my own safety, and the safety of the weapon owner, if I was a cop.
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I agree that if someone is already in the ambulance, or obviously headed to the hospital, the weapon should be secured. But to secure it (by an EMT) just because it is there seems to be a little on the paranoid side since if it is a person with a permit. What makes the EMT determine that the gun should be secured? Famous556 says they automatically secure it. I do understand securing guns in a lot of cases such as these, but to make it a policy to secure a gun from someone that just has a few scratches doesn't make a lot of sense.
Since the laws are so vague, it does make it easy to understand what they are actually saying. That also plays in the favor of the badge carrying people, giving them the authority to remove your rights.
I do have a problem with a cop taking a gun for just a routine stop, especially if the permit holder informs the cop of the gun and permit. Lincoln and Omaha are perfect examples if the stories posted here are true. A law abiding citizen would probably have to spend a lot of money to get his property back. As far as alcohol and drugs, there are more problems than just having a gun. There are two cases when it better be taken.
I just see it as a possible violation of rights, and there is nothing you can do about it. Once they say you had to have your gun taken and secured, no matter what the reason, you may lose your permit and right to own a gun. Going to court to get it back will automatically put you on the defensive side making you out to be the criminal that lost your gun.
I know I put too much thought into this, but I will still wait to see how some cases play out.
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I agree that if someone is already in the ambulance, or obviously headed to the hospital, the weapon should be secured. But to secure it (by an EMT) just because it is there seems to be a little on the paranoid side since if it is a person with a permit. What makes the EMT determine that the gun should be secured? Famous556 says they automatically secure it. I do understand securing guns in a lot of cases such as these, but to make it a policy to secure a gun from someone that just has a few scratches doesn't make a lot of sense.
Note the generous use of the word "may" in the language. The EMTs have discretion on securing the weapon untill it is decided that the person will be transported to the ER. OFDs policy is that no guns are to be transported in the Ambulance. It will be given to Law Enforcement or will be held at the scene by the remaining Firefighters untill LE can respond and secure it. If you are unconscious and we find it enroute it will be taken by Security at the ER and given to LE there.
I can only speak for myself, but I would feel no need to secure a persons firearm that suffered only minor injuries and I knew was going to refuse transport. Unless I suspected the person was under the influence of alchohol or drugs or may be suffering from a medical condition that would effect their judgement. For example diabetic issues or seizure disorders.
But you have to realize that there are Medics that have zero firearms knowlege or experience. And if they feel the weapon needs to be secured throughout the duration of contact , as the law is written, they can do so.
Im not sure I see why the temporary securing of the weapon is such a big deal anyway. As long as you havent commited a crime or are not transported to a Hospital it is immediately returned.
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I think members may be concerned with OPD in particular taking possession of their weapon, even if it supposed to be temporary.
They have a habit of making it VERY difficult to get a weapon back from them, from what I have heard.
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In a traffic stop there appears to be little or no determining factor as to why LEO can secure a weapon or weapon's. If the officer feels that you are angry about the ticket you just recieved is that justifiable grounds for keeping your firearm?
I'm not trying to bag on cops here. I don't see the average LEO doing this, but some LEO's are... well, not average as we have experienced. It may just be a matter of time before this happen's.
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Has there been an actual incident were a LE didn?t return the weapon at the termination of contact with a CCW holder ? One who was not arrested or found to be committing an offense that would result in the revocation of his/her permit? If so I think we would all like to hear the details.
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I had a cop take the bullets, a half full box of .45's TAP's. I found this rather odd. I had a 1911 stored safely, no mag with the gun, and no round in the chamber. Showed my permit, and he asked where the gun was. I said inside driver?s door stored safely. Then he asked if he could keep it for the stop. I said ok (a bit puzzled, ???!), how do you want to proceeded, have me hand you the gun, or open the door to allow access to the gun? He had me open the door, and he took the gun out of the case, safety on, so he struggled for a bit to pull back the slide (I was getting a kick out of that, knowing it was safe) then I mentioned the safety was up and he would have to push the little lever down to be able to work the slide to see the clear chamber. So he did that, saw it was clear, gave it back to me, and took the box of Hornady TAP's that were there by the gun.
The stop went ok, I got a warning for speeding. It was a LPO officer.
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Sounds like he kept the bullets and didn't give them back. Did he indicate why he was keeping them or give you a receipt?
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I have been in two DOT stops, informed the officer both times. Both times I was thanked for telling them. They never asked for the gun or the permit either time. But, I will stay away from Omaha and Lincoln, I just can't see taking the chance there, my money is good anywhere else in the state.
Argue with a cop or EMT about taking your gun just once, you will never see it or another one again.
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He did give the bullets back at the end of the stop. Another time, the CCW permit saved my bacon! We got to BSing about guns, and gave me a verbal warning for ~70+ in a 40 (on a bike)! Most of the stops the officer is cool. Just let them know right away when they walk up.
Most scary, I was with two buddies and we had class 3 stuff in the back of a Land rover. He got pulled over, and a range bag of brass had spilled all over the back. We were out shooting in SW NE I bet we had ~10 long guns (if you consider a bull pup a long gun) and 8 or so handguns. Needless to say the cop was a little out gunned. The stop went ok the buddy got a warning for failure to signal a lane change. Not knowing if I needed to inform the officer I did. I was pretty nervous handing the state trooper my permit, and not knowing if he was going to check each and every gun. I could just see the three of us, cuffed and stuffed with a whole layout of guns on the hood of the cruiser while he called them in to check the stamps!!
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^^^^ sounds like a situation a friend went through. He was returning home from a KS gunshow in his Reg cab sized pickup and was pulled over. Passenger side was stacked with all manner of firearms long and short. Officer shined the light through the cab, said slow it down and walked off. ;D
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I could just see the three of us, cuffed and stuffed with a whole layout of guns on the hood of the cruiser while he called them in to check the stamps!!
I'm pretty sure he doesn't get to do that. BATF and IRS can demand to see a stamped Form 4, but local law enforcement doesn't have that power or a way to check that they are legit. On the other hand, showing a copy of the Form 4 will make things a lot easier....
/rl
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Famous566
So, it is your policy to secure it no matter what? The law says that you should only secure the weapon if it will interfere with the safety of people present. Just because a person has a gun does not immediately mean things are not safe. I would think that you may be overstepping your authority if you secure every gun just because you can.
I should clarify what I meant here DaveB. Be careful how you read into my post as you will notice I did NOT say that I will disarm everyone... I was simply stating our policy in the event that someone was disarmed. I believe that there are many circumstances in which someone would not need to be disarmed. Do keep in mind however, that if you're headed to the hospital with no family on scene before you leave, securing your weapon with a LEO may be the only option seeing as how you will be in violation of law as soon as we walk through those ER doors.
I should have been more clear with my post, but rest assured I'm not in the business of preventing others from enjoying the same rights that I do just because of some silly law that was written in vague language. :)
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I was hoping that is what you meant. I also think it would be better for all involved that any injury requiring a trip to the ER should have the gun secured. I did read it as it was your policy to secure a gun for any reason. I also think that if the injured person is coherent enough to let you know he has a gun, he is not a threat to anyone there.
I just have a problem with trusting anyone I don't know, and a lot of people I do know. A simple serial number error on a hand written receipt could cost you your gun at a later date.
The laws are purposely written the way they are so that you never know where you stand until one guy in a robe tells you how he interpreted it.
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I definetly agree with your last statement, funny how the law is sometimes, but it's certainly open to some interpretation by a judge. You are also correct that an issue with the reciept could cause problems, but I hope that something like that could be sorted out without getting a judge involved, but you never know. Truth be told I've yet to transport a patient that has had a concealed weapon on their person. There are just not that many of us in the state. I was simply informing on our policy should we encounter it.
It brings up an interesting discussion, what happens if we are transporting a person to the trauma center after a bad accident where they are unconscious and as we assess for injuries we find a firearm on them? This is what I was answering when I said, call ahead to dispatch, secure firearm in unit until you reach the hospital and can secure it to a LEO.
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I would think it would be best to not secure the weapon unless you have good knowlege of guns. Someone that does not know anything about them could make things worse than they are by just leaving it be. I would like to see them call ahead and have someone there to properly secure the gun. But, some people just don't know that guns don't just shoot by themselves.