NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: AWick on September 07, 2013, 03:11:46 PM
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This morning my wife and I put our 9 month old in the stroller to walk down to a local bakery, just shy of a mile away, for breakfast. As I was putting my shoes on I looked over at my gun case and though, "Ohhhh, it'll be OK. We're just going to the bakery." My wife isn't too fond of me carrying all the time and so I've been trying to just slowly increase my regularity and "pick my battles".
This morning showed me that you can't "pick your battles", EVER. On our way back we came around a corner and there was a 130lbs rottweiler on the loose growling and barking at us only about 20 yards away. We stopped dead in our tracks, lowered our eyes to try to not provoke the thing any more and crossed the street. The dog barked after us for awhile, but we managed to get out of its line of sight. I had my knife on me like I ALWAYS do and had it drawn and ready as I'm pushing the stroller. I would've hated to have to find out how I would fare against a 130lbs rottweiler with only a knife and not my pistol... I don't think that I would've liked the outcome...
Hopefully that not only opened my eyes more, but my wife's as well...
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Glad everything worked out ok.
I had a similar encounter about a year ago with a large 100+ pound dog that started chasing me when I was out for a run. His owner was letting him run loose and eventually called him off, but if it had advanced much further I would have been forced to draw. A dog of that size could seriously injure or kill even a grown man. I'm a dog lover but I have no patience for irresponsible owners.
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Glad everything worked out ok.
I had a similar encounter about a year ago with a large 100+ pound dog that started chasing me when I was out for a run. His owner was letting him run loose and eventually called him off, but if it had advanced much further I would have been forced to draw. A dog of that size could seriously injure or kill even a grown man. I'm a dog lover but I have no patience for irresponsible owners.
After you protect yourself, the irresponsible one gets to file a lawsuit and try to take your house.
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After you protect yourself, the irresponsible one gets to file a lawsuit and try to take your house.
That's the sad thing.
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After you protect yourself, the irresponsible one gets to file a lawsuit and try to take your house.
I must admit, the best use for pepper spray (for non-LEO folks) in my opinion is for anti-dog situations. You have to feel sorry for the dog afterward (because its behavior is due to OWNER failure, not dog failure) but it doesn't kill the dog, and works like a charm. (Dogs don't know to dodge, close their eyes, or close their mouth.)
When on walks like that, I strongly suggest having a medium-sized canister of high-quality, high-volume pepper spray. Versus dogs, (IMO) it is actually much more effective than a firearm, with MUCH less nonsense afterwards.
"You killed my dog!" "It was attacking me!" "I'm taking you to court, you dog-killer! Why do you even CARRY a gun in this nice neighborhood!" etc...
versus
"What did you do to my dog?! "It attacked us. It was just pepper spray, he'll be fine in a little while. We are, however, reporting this attack to the police, since you didn't control your dog." "But, but, he was just..."
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Very good point. To be honest, I had never really thought about a dog attack until that point. I had been more concerned about two legged threats.
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jthhapkido - Very good idea. Thank you very much, you just probably saved a couple of unpleasant situations.
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Bear spray might get you splashed across the headlines less than shooting a firearm to naturalize a dog. A gun to naturalize a bad situation is a last alternative.
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Very good point. To be honest, I had never really thought about a dog attack until that point. I had been more concerned about two legged threats.
I'm in the same boat. I obviously will/would have still had my CCW on me but I will probably have to heed jthhpkido's advice and get can for walks such as that. The moment we locked eyes, I was just really regretting not being better prepared.
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Another option would have been a Chuck Norris stare down....
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On our way back we came around a corner and there was a 130lbs rottweiler on the loose growling and barking at us only about 20 yards away. We stopped dead in our tracks, lowered our eyes to try to not provoke the thing any more and crossed the street. The dog barked after us for awhile, but we managed to get out of its line of sight.
So, did you report the loose/vicious animal situation to the police/animal control? Once the owner has been cited for letting an animal (such as that) run free, the chances for a repeat episode are lessened. It would otherwise appear to me that you could have a repeat situation on your hands again. Or someone else....which could be a child or elderly person that would not know how to handle a large snarling animal...their first instinct is to run and you know what happens next. My point being, it is not too late to report the incident...if anything to at least have it on record in case you/someone else crosses paths with the same animal.
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I heard the owner call for the dog and made a note of which house it was. I plan on talking to them the next time I walk by there. I, too, think it is unfortunate that it seems that we can't have neighborly conversations without involving the police. Of course if this is a repeat occurrence I'll have to raise the issue to the next level.
I'll keep you updated on how the conversation goes if I get a chance.
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Minnesota has these kinds of situations figured out pretty well, in my opinion:
347.17 KILLING DOGS IN CERTAIN CASES.
Any person may kill any dog that the person knows is affected with the disease known as hydrophobia, or that may suddenly attack while the person is peacefully walking or riding and while being out of the enclosure of its owner or keeper, and may kill any dog found killing, wounding, or worrying any horses, cattle, sheep, lambs, or other domestic animals.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=347.17 (https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=347.17)
Does Nebraska have any such law?
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When I see cops in my neighborhood, I make sure they know that they aren't welcome. I don't appreciate the presence of roving gang members in their gang colors looking for trouble.
I don't see cops as "roving gang members in their gang colors looking for trouble"---and as you are a lawyer who works with words, I'm pretty sure that the implication of illegal actions by invaders was deliberate.
I don't agree. Matter of fact, I strongly disagree with your attitude an opinion regarding the police. (I'll note that I agree with your statement that first, problem-solving should be done directly via conversation with the dog's owner, as long as the dog's owner doesn't start by saying he is going to sue you for OCing his dog. In that case, you need a police report.)
I am curious, however, how you "make sure they know that they aren't welcome." How precisely does that work? What do you do?
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I see police as a friend and partner since I volunteer as an EMT/FF.
They are just folks like all of us, there are good and bad just like all of us.
A little friendliness goes a long way with LEOs and Emergency responders.
Greg58
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Back to the dog topic. I have had some run ins and I have owned several dogs.
A dog running at you can be scary, but some dogs are just enthusiastic and want to say hello. I try to be a responsible dog owner but they are tough to control sometimes. My dogs have bum rushed a couple of people (including a deputy) and I have felt terrible about it. Thankfully they have not been shot. An irresponsible dog owner is one that keeps a mean dog. If one of my dogs exhibited those traits they would be put down.
Pepper spray is by far the best defense against dogs. Guns do not instill fear in dogs, they have no idea, they will keep coming. They move so fast and are so small they make a very difficult target. Even if you hit one, that doesn't mean they will stop. I have hit a dog with a 2x4 so hard it would have dropped Mike Tyson and it kept coming.
A shot of spray and they will stop. As a dog owner, I would not fault anyone for spraying my dogs if they felt threatened. No cops, no court, no one hurt. Dog and owner both learn a lesson.
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Good point. My dog is like that - he loves pretty much everyone he has ever met and will come barreling up to anyone he sees so he can tell them how much he loves them. If someone is already scared of dogs a big mutt bounding towards them could be intimidating regardless of the big doggy smile and wagging tail, though, so I don't let him run around off the leash. That's just irresponsible, both towards the dog and other people.
I remember reading an article a year or two ago where a pitbull had attacked several people and the police were called out to put him down. It took several hits from 00 buck before he stopped. Animals don't feel pain the same way we do. They're a lot tougher.
In the encounter I had it was a large Bloodhound type dog who was acting very aggressively. Growling, hair standing on end, etc. It's entirely possible he was just bluffing, but you just don't know when they're acting like that. If I'd had OC spray he would have probably gotten a good dose, because I was definitely in adrenaline dump mode.
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This is 85 pounds of uncontrolled love during his nap time on the designated "dog couch". I wouldn't blame anyone for being afraid of him when he comes running towards them at 15 mph.
Fly
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To quote Citizen Clark:
"When I see cops in my neighborhood, I make sure they know that they aren't welcome. I don't appreciate the presence of roving gang members in their gang colors looking for trouble."
Very well stated. I feel the same way.
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To quote Citizen Clark:
"When I see cops in my neighborhood, I make sure they know that they aren't welcome. I don't appreciate the presence of roving gang members in their gang colors looking for trouble."
Very well stated. I feel the same way.
I'm curious how you make police officers feel unwelcome? I asked Clark the same thing, and he never answered.
How exactly do you do that?
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JT- I like the way that Citizen Clark wrote his thread. I feel the same way he does as for their general "presence" if you will.
I personally avoid their presence. I don't do anything to make sure that they know that they are unwelcome. My last encounter and my son's last encounter were enough for me to avoid them all together.
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I conspicuously videorecord their activities. I ask them to leave their victims alone. Etc.
You interrupt a law enforcement officer in the performance of their duty and tell them to leave their "victims" alone? (Use of quotes is merely to denote your term, as opposed to anything else).
Now I'm really curious what the "etc" is. I'm also trying to think of how saying things like that will do anything other than make the police officers annoyed. Have you ever had an officer say "You know what, you are right. I should just let this guy go."
Has your actions made any difference to police presence in your area? (Last I knew, police patrols and such weren't based on anything like that, but maybe I'm wrong.) Or did they merely make certain that the cops were in a worse mood in your area?
I mean, if you don't want them around, wouldn't it work better to attempt to change staffing or patrol schedules, as opposed to annoying the officers who don't get to choose their patrol areas in the first place? Or do you think that instead of patrolling, they'll simply go hide elsewhere for their shift?
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This is 85 pounds of uncontrolled love during his nap time on the designated "dog couch". I wouldn't blame anyone for being afraid of him when he comes running towards them at 15 mph.
Fly
I had a dear friend who looked identical to your pooch, but Rascal weighed only 15 lbs. Big heart, lots of love. We rescued him from a puppy mill in York, along with a 9 lb sibling, Reba. The pair were full of ticks, worms, brucellosis, malnutrition and other problems. The mill was shut down. More than $3,000 later they were in excellent health and fine shape. Rascal developed diabetes. Reba had hip dysplasia that grew worse as she grew older. Eventually I had to carry her outside and hold up her rear end so she could do her business. because she couldn't navigate the deck steps. Eventually she couldn't walk at all.
They've been gone about 3 years and my wife and I miss them both.
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They've been gone about 3 years and my wife and I miss them both.
I always say "Dogs are some of the best people I've ever met".
Fly
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I conspicuously videorecord their activities. I ask them to leave their victims alone. Etc.
Not sure how it is in Lincoln, but here in Omaha I've always found it ironic that the neighborhoods who are often complaining about police oppression and brutality are the same neighborhoods that send representatives to cityhall meetings to demand a greater "police presence" when their kids start shooting each other. ::)
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So update on this one. I never ended up speaking with the owner, haven't seen her out since, but talked to two of the neighbors. I guess that morning the dog must have been extra limber because normally it suffers from some pretty bad old-big-dog arthritis in the hips. I'm sure that is why the lady didn't think that it may have been a threat at all to let it out. Either way, I have walked that route several times again and have yet to see the dog. I haven't bought pepper spray, but I just got a Cabela's gift card in the mail and I plan on picking up a can soon! I'm carrying more frequently now... I know, I know... it's not 100%, but I'm still getting myself and my wife used to it. I was relieved when we went on a date in Omaha the other night for her birthday and not a single place restricted concealed carry so there weren't any trips back to the car!
As for the discussion about not making cops feel welcome I would disagree on some points and agree on others. I don't think that I should make them feel as if I NEED them to protect me and make me safe, I should be able to do that on my own with the right to self defense... However, when my son was just a few months old he got sick and had breathing troubles and started to turn blue-ish on me at 2AM. The local small town cop, with first responder training, arrived in literally less than 40 seconds after I heard the dispatcher call it in (he must've been close by on his rounds). I had taken lots of first aid and cpr classes, but in the middle of the night as that was going down I felt so utterly paralyzed that I can't even describe it. I couldn't have been more thankful for the help he provided until the volunteer EMT crew showed up and transported him to the hospital. He is more than welcome in my neighborhood!