NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Survival/Emergency Preparedness => Topic started by: ProtoPatriot on September 11, 2013, 03:38:01 PM
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Here is a great way to have hot water and maximize resources, instead of doing to old pot-over-the-fire deal that would require a lot more time and a lot more wood.
I saw this video and found it a nice setup, though maybe some form of insulation around the water pipes to minimize heat loss during travel.
This is a low volume system, though with the water heater being used to store the water, you could probably use a windmill system to increase the flow (though of course you would then need some kind of elevated water supply such as a water tower).
http://youtu.be/5IRLVCJ1olA (http://youtu.be/5IRLVCJ1olA)
Any other ideas people have had or came across?
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The key to it is that highly efficient "Rocket stove". Those stoves are easy to make, essentially smokeless, and very efficient -- less heat is wasted going out the stack and volatile gases are burned as well as the charcoal. YouTube is filled with videos of DYI rocket stoves, and commercial ones as well, like the one used in your video.
One should be careful in that setup to avoid steam formation, which means that dissolved solids are precipitating out inside the pipe to form scale. If the scale blocks the pipe an explosion will result. One can add a DC powered water pump inline with the copper tubing to circulate the water between the tank and the coil, stopping the process when the tank temperature reaches 110F or what ever. The water pump can be powered by a electric thermocouple attached to the side of the stove pipe to draw energy from the heat of the flue gases.
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Good points GreyGeek...especially the scale buildup issue, though no matter what you will have to deal with some buildup, but best to deal with it in the storage container than the piping... maintaining some pressure in the system would help with some of it, enough so no steam occurs in the pipes. Though I think he had it like that for demonstration purposes, he said he had modifications and finishing touches (tweaks) to make. I do think a horizontal coil would be much better than a vertical (less fighting with gravity).
Was thinking of what can be made easily on the fly out of household items... a thermoelectric generator capable of running much (let alone one to run a decent enough pump with good flow rate) is not exactly an item easily made at home by most people, where as a windmill would be much simpler. So, unless you have found a way to do so out of regular home supplies and generate enough voltage/amps/watts (most homemade DIY TEGs only getting around 6 volts and 1 watt from what I can find), I don't see it as much of a viable option as charging the battery would take a long time.
Yep, you can make a "rocket stove" relatively easily and they are great.
Though the whole "rocket stove" thing brings to mind of possibly using a Franklin stove design (in order to more effectively trap the heat longer...not to mention less noticeable smoke coming out) -- could maybe run the coil directly through the actual system instead of just around the outside (though soot buildup may become an issue, will have to look more into this...).
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I have plans for a much larger "rocket stove" wood-fired water heater but have yet to build it.
You can be off the grid and use propane to heat water. Much easier. :D
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One can attach a TEG to the side of the stove pipe.
http://tegpower.com/ (http://tegpower.com/)
There are cheap ones at Amazon for under $10 that generate 90W at 12 volts, but they aren't built very well and don't last long. Call them experimental units.
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One can attach a TEG to the side of the stove pipe.
http://tegpower.com/ (http://tegpower.com/)
There are cheap ones at Amazon for under $10 that generate 90W at 12 volts, but they aren't built very well and don't last long. Call them experimental units.
That is true...but what I was meaning was DIY homemade (meaning no purchasing, make things put of materials already in homes).
Anything is possible when you have the option to purchase, but for those that dont have the money to spare or there is no longer any way to purchase things...its best to be able to build it yourself out of things you already have.
self-reliance is key.
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I have plans for a much larger "rocket stove" wood-fired water heater but have yet to build it.
You can be off the grid and use propane to heat water. Much easier. :D
and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?
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and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?
Probably the best source of methane known to man -- manure. Human, pig, cows,
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Probably the best source of methane known to man -- manure. Human, pig, cows,
Well that could work if you have a compost waste system instead of septic...just have to have a way to trap and pressurize it.
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and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?
You said "off grid" not "end of the world as we know it, no way to replenish resources". :D
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and what then when the propane runs out and there is no way to refill it?
Use a Solar Water heater maybe ?
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You said "off grid" not "end of the world as we know it, no way to replenish resources"
I also said SHTF....good luck replenishing resources during that. So, yes, propane great as long as everything stays up and running. Though, I guess it's just me, I don't want repetitive costs... don't want to have to keep spending money to replenish things I could provide, make, or repair myself. Hence why GreyGeek's suggestion of methane would be great since you solve 2 issues in one: fuel and waste disposal through a anaerobic "compost" system (compost systems are aerobic thus require air, to generate methane, air must be minimized/removed)...however, I wonder if the quantity of gas being generated would be high and fast enough. (of course, as I think of this, you would also need someway to seal things off, because the smell will be horrible..not to mention the waste left over afterward would need disposal, might be able to use it as fertilizer, but not sure.)
EDIT: I found this article/video that shows how someone did it, but they don't go into quantities: http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to (http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to)
Don't you find we pay entirely too much time after time? Just really don't like "subscription"/"rent" type things.
Also, isn't the whole point of going "off the grid" to save money, be more self-reliant, self-sustainable and stop having others provide things for you thus creating an unhealthy dependency? So, I would say, use of propane would make it so you would still be "on the grid."
Use a Solar Water heater maybe ?
That is definitely another, less noticeable way...though only really effective during the day, making night time bathing/cleaning difficult (but I guess you could just boil as you need over a regular fire and bath during the day). Simple to make too: some wood, glass, pipe, maybe some aluminum foil to increase effectiveness.
Probably comes down to a need for a hybrid of systems. A wood/matter burning stove and a solar system....though someway to generate electricity would be useful; maybe by windmill, hydroelectric, steam-turbine...something.
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I also said SHTF....good luck replenishing resources during that. So, yes, propane great as long as everything stays up and running. Though, I guess it's just me, I don't want repetitive costs... don't want to have to keep spending money to replenish things I could provide, make, or repair myself.
OK, for the sake of discussion, let's say that SHTF means no more propane - even though current propane storage would last for years - and you have to fuel your water heater with wood.
How much wood have you processed without the benefit of gasoline? Do you own a two-man felling saw, two-man crosscut saw, splitting wedge and have the time to make kindling as small as that in the photo in your OP? Do you have any idea how much wood you would use in a day? Do you also plan to use wood to heat with in the winter?
Hot water, for bathing or washing clothes or dishes, can easily be produced by putting a pot on top of the wood heating stove while heating your home during the winter.
Solar is OK, but - unless you utilize it to produce electricity to power an electric water heater - isn't going to produce particularly hot water. Anyone who's ever owned an electric water heater knows how (in)efficient that is.
In-line propane-powered water heaters are exceptionally efficient.
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OK, for the sake of discussion, let's say that SHTF means no more propane - even though current propane storage would last for years -
SHTF = No utilities, no access to stores of any kind (no groceries, no gas stations, no clothing stores, no restaurants, etc.), no gasoline, no propane....all the luxuries we have enjoyed go bye bye.
Ok, so you will be stockpiling propane?
Do you know how much propane you would use in a day? How about the increased amount during the winter? How will you gain access to such storages of propane if they were accessible at all?
Also, how will you transport said propane from the storage location, they weigh quite a bit? Not to mention, how many others are you going to have to fight off going after the exact same thing? And last, do you believe you will be able to afford it?
and you have to fuel your water heater with wood.
And?
The water heater is just being used as a storage container, the stove does the heating. Not a big deal.
How much wood have you processed without the benefit of gasoline? Do you own a two-man felling saw, two-man crosscut saw, splitting wedge and have the time to make kindling as small as that in the photo in your OP? Do you have any idea how much wood you would use in a day? Do you also plan to use wood to heat with in the winter?
How many years was wood used before gases and such came along?
How many years was wood gathered before two-man saws and such came along?
I have cut down plenty of trees over the years with an axe (and yes, if need be an axe can be made in the home easily enough and so can a basic saw). Does a chainsaw make it easier, sure...but necessary it is not.
When you are supplying only wood for yourself/family and a small shelter, it doesn't take much to heat the place (also, if need be, gather everyone into a single room and you will be able to extend your resources). Also, using a rocket stove or other such efficient stoves, it doesn't take much wood to make a lot of heat.
An axe/hatchet/handsaw can easily produce the the kindling that size... in fact I did so just the other day, they don't have to be all perfectly straight or equal thicknesses, just small enough to fit several in there. Also, a good bayonet/kabar is great for splitting wood into smaller pieces.
All the same things you would do during the rest of the year you would still do during the winter. Now, of course, to ease the winter, it would be wise to have a large pile of wood on hand, which is easy enough to do.
People are way too dependent on technology, they can no longer see past it or doing anything without it. People survived many years without such unnecessary luxuries...
Hot water, for bathing or washing clothes or dishes, can easily be produced by putting a pot on top of the wood heating stove while heating your home during the winter.
Yes, it can as recognized earlier, would it be as quick or efficient...no it wouldn't. But the rest of the year do you really want that wood stove running? Winter sure, it's already running, but the rest of the year it would smother you out of the house/shelter.
Solar is OK, but - unless you utilize it to produce electricity to power an electric water heater - isn't going to produce particularly hot water. Anyone who's ever owned an electric water heater knows how (in)efficient that is.
Sure, solar won't make the hottest water, but it will be hot enough to bath comfortably in and clean things...and as recognized, has it's limitations as heating stops at night and has to start all over the next morning, plus you have account for ambient temperatures.
Solar electricity...great as it is, not able to build in your home and also limited during winter/overcast days.
So, yes, a combo system. Solar Water Heater for use during the day (late spring through early fall) and a wood stove water heater for night and the winter.
In-line propane-powered water heaters are exceptionally efficient.
No one said they weren't, but you are still dependent on the "grid" (or would you rather the word "system" be used instead?) and others providing you resources.
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EDIT: I found this article/video that shows how someone did it, but they don't go into quantities: http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to (http://theurbanfarmingguys.com/methane-biodigester-how-to)
There is so much wrong with what that guy was trying to do it is hard to know where to being....
First, one pound of dry manure will supply between 2 and 8 cubic feet of Methane, depending on its quality. About 10% of manure is "ash", and of the remaining "volatiles" only about half is digested to Methane. The slug buildup in the digester shown in the video would shut it down within a few months. There is no way to tear it apart for cleaning. The guy learned quickly that there is a ratio of Carbon and Nitrogen that must be maintained for proper digestion. It is the same ratio that goes into making good compost piles. A compost pile would be good for a Methane digester except that it doesn't have sufficient Methane producing bacteria and it needs to be ground into almost dust and mixed with water. That's why cow, pig and chicken manure is the best material to use. Here is a table I found which gives the approximate Methane producing capabilities. A "unit" is 1,000 lbs of animal. From the table the manure most efficient in generating Methane is chicken manure.
Animal units MBTU/yr MBTU/yr/unit
Fattened Cattle 9.6 89.9 9.3
Milk Cows 12.3 92.1 7.5
Swine 8.5 124 14.6
Poultry 6.1 125 20.5
The gas produced in a Methane generator usually contains 60-70% methane, 30-40% carbon dioxide, and 1-2% hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic. A leak of biogas into living quarters could silently kill the occupants because H2S anesthetizes the nose at lethal concentrations, so one wouldn't want a pilot light burning.
H2S burns to form Sulfur Dioxide gas, which reacts with moisture in the air to form Sulfuric Acid, the principal component of acid rain. It is very corrosive to metals and lungs. To scrub the H2S from the biogas in a SHTF scenario the easiest way to make a scrubber would be to bubble the biogas through a solution of white ash made from burned wood, which contains Lye. That would also remove the CO2 from the gas. Boiling a solution of white wood ash and animal fat produces "Ivory" soap. White ash is the white powdery remains of a wood fire that doesn't contain unburned Carbon, i.e., charcoal. A Warm Morning wood burning stove creates good piles of white ash, more like a gray talcum powder.
My family and I lived out in the country, 5 miles from the nearest village of 500, where I taught science and math. When the Arab oil embargo hit in 1972 Propane became so expensive that I switched to a coal burning stove, which was almost a disaster. Too hard to control the temp. Switching to wood and using a 21" chain saw my son and I would cut dead wood every Wednesday and Saturday, filling the trunk of a Ford Fairlane 500 junker that I drove specifically for that purpose. The house we lived in was the oldest in Merrick County, built in 1887, mainly out of Cotton Wood. It was not insulated. Four Mesquite logs about 5-6" in diameter and 18" long would keep the two story house warm all night in the middle of January. About 250 of those logs make a cord. In my experience burning wood from October to March I burned about 2 to 2 1/2 cord of Mesquite. Ash was good (3 - 3 1/2 cord), Chinese Elm acceptable (took 4 - 4 1/2 cord). Chinese Elm was the most common wood, besides Cottonwood. Ceder was poor because it had too much hydrocarbon volatiles and burned up too quickly, leaving a lot of soot in the stove pipe. Cottonwood was terrible, and it is impossible to split. Using just 6" diameter branches it would take, I'd guess, 10 - 15 cord to heat the house. You'll use Ceder and Cottonwood only once. Mesquite is very hard, and after cutting though an 18" diameter log three or four times I'd have to get out the sharpener and sharpen the chain.
I had an advantage because a LOT of farms had tree lots behind their houses, or nearby, which were planted when farmers heated and cooked with wood and had to keep a nearby supply handy. After propane arrived the wood lots were neglected and were full of a lot of dead, dry wood. Just perfect for me. I was often asked to come by and "clean out" an old wood lot. However, after about five years a LOT of folks were beginning to burn wood and those wood lots were seen as another income source. That was about the time I quit teaching and started my computer consulting business.
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SHTF = No utilities, no access to stores of any kind (no groceries, no gas stations, no clothing stores, no restaurants, etc.), no gasoline, no propane....all the luxuries we have enjoyed go bye bye.
Ok, so you will be stockpiling propane?
Do you know how much propane you would use in a day? How about the increased amount during the winter? How will you gain access to such storages of propane if they were accessible at all?
Also, how will you transport said propane from the storage location, they weigh quite a bit? Not to mention, how many others are you going to have to fight off going after the exact same thing? And last, do you believe you will be able to afford it?
And?
The water heater is just being used as a storage container, the stove does the heating. Not a big deal.
How many years was wood used before gases and such came along?
How many years was wood gathered before two-man saws and such came along?
I have cut down plenty of trees over the years with an axe (and yes, if need be an axe can be made in the home easily enough and so can a basic saw). Does a chainsaw make it easier, sure...but necessary it is not.
When you are supplying only wood for yourself/family and a small shelter, it doesn't take much to heat the place (also, if need be, gather everyone into a single room and you will be able to extend your resources). Also, using a rocket stove or other such efficient stoves, it doesn't take much wood to make a lot of heat.
An axe/hatchet/handsaw can easily produce the the kindling that size... in fact I did so just the other day, they don't have to be all perfectly straight or equal thicknesses, just small enough to fit several in there. Also, a good bayonet/kabar is great for splitting wood into smaller pieces.
All the same things you would do during the rest of the year you would still do during the winter. Now, of course, to ease the winter, it would be wise to have a large pile of wood on hand, which is easy enough to do.
People are way too dependent on technology, they can no longer see past it or doing anything without it. People survived many years without such unnecessary luxuries...
Yes, it can as recognized earlier, would it be as quick or efficient...no it wouldn't. But the rest of the year do you really want that wood stove running? Winter sure, it's already running, but the rest of the year it would smother you out of the house/shelter.
Sure, solar won't make the hottest water, but it will be hot enough to bath comfortably in and clean things...and as recognized, has it's limitations as heating stops at night and has to start all over the next morning, plus you have account for ambient temperatures.
Solar electricity...great as it is, not able to build in your home and also limited during winter/overcast days.
So, yes, a combo system. Solar Water Heater for use during the day (late spring through early fall) and a wood stove water heater for night and the winter.
No one said they weren't, but you are still dependent on the "grid" (or would you rather the word "system" be used instead?) and others providing you resources.
I guess you could say that I've stockpiled propane. I have a 500 and a 1000 gallon tank on the farm. I have several 20 lb tanks and two 100 lb tanks at my house here in Omaha. I know that the farm house can run the heat at a comfortable level, without the assistance of any wood heat, on less than the 500 gallon tank holds.
I wouldn't even use the word "inefficient" to describe felling trees and processing wood with an axe. I grew up in a home heated primarily by wood. We had chainsaws and a huge buzz saw that was mounted to and driven by a tractor. Even with those "modern conveniences" it took me and a couple full-grown men to process enough wood to heat the house through the winter. I was swinging a Monster Maul by the time I was just a little taller than the maul itself. I have decades of experience with the amount of work involved in heating water and the inside of a home with wood. You'll need a big, strong family to do it with an axe. As GreyGeek pointed out, very few native Nebraska trees are ideal for wood heat.
Solar works exceptionally well at producing direct current (with can be transformed into alternating current). The time of year has nothing to do with it - especially if you have a panel array that can be tilted and turned to follow the sun. An overcast day or two shouldn't be a problem if you've built a decent batter bank to store the power. There is a considerable up-front investment necessary and, of course, batteries will eventually deteriorate and die leaving you with only direct DC current (no storage).
Our ancestors heated water and their homes primarily with coal, wood, buffalo chips and other combustible materials. Returning to those days is beyond the understanding of most folks because they have no frame of reference. For better or worse, like Grey Geek, I have that frame of reference.
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I guess you could say that I've stockpiled propane. I have a 500 and a 1000 gallon tank on the farm. I have several 20 lb tanks and two 100 lb tanks at my house here in Omaha. I know that the farm house can run the heat at a comfortable level, without the assistance of any wood heat, on less than the 500 gallon tank holds.
I wouldn't even use the word "inefficient" to describe felling trees and processing wood with an axe. I grew up in a home heated primarily by wood. We had chainsaws and a huge buzz saw that was mounted to and driven by a tractor. Even with those "modern conveniences" it took me and a couple full-grown men to process enough wood to heat the house through the winter. I was swinging a Monster Maul by the time I was just a little taller than the maul itself. I have decades of experience with the amount of work involved in heating water and the inside of a home with wood. You'll need a big, strong family to do it with an axe. As GreyGeek pointed out, very few native Nebraska trees are ideal for wood heat.
Solar works exceptionally well at producing direct current (with can be transformed into alternating current). The time of year has nothing to do with it - especially if you have a panel array that can be tilted and turned to follow the sun. An overcast day or two shouldn't be a problem if you've built a decent batter bank to store the power. There is a considerable up-front investment necessary and, of course, batteries will eventually deteriorate and die leaving you with only direct DC current (no storage).
Our ancestors heated water and their homes primarily with coal, wood, buffalo chips and other combustible materials. Returning to those days is beyond the understanding of most folks because they have no frame of reference. For better or worse, like Grey Geek, I have that frame of reference.
Off the Grid = No outside connection of any kind (no water lines, no power lines, no gas lines, nothing), no relying on others to provide things necessary for survival, only having to leave your property because you want to and not because you have to, etc...living only on the resources you/your family gathers, no one else.
Ok, so you run all those tanks to heat, cook, and such with. So, that's gets you how far? Then what? Sure since you already have it, it gets you a head start and you can start working on harvesting wood or other methods. But what about others that don't have such things already setup to go and SHTF hits tomorrow?
With solar, time of year does have something to do with it.... having 18 hours of sun vs 10 hours is pretty big deal (unless of course you are in TX, AZ, NM, NV, southern UT, etc... then you have all the sun you ever could want), regardless of the battery bank you have. Also, as I said with solar, you can't make those panels yourself out of materials already in your home or most homes. So, it doesn't quite work. Having only DC to work with is not a big deal, better than nothing.
My point was that propane is not "off the grid" as people may want to believe nor is it a very long term, viable option. You are still dependent on the "grid"/"system", unless you have your own propane refinery and such in your house. As GreyGeek pointed out, propane will become extremely expensive should anything happen, so good luck refilling let alone transporting it.
I know plenty of people that go harvest their own wood solo or in pairs (father-son, brothers, etc.) and they gather enough for the year and winter just fine; all while still going to work, tending a garden, etc. It can be done. Would it be completely easy? No, not at all but doable.
The point of the whole post was to provide ways for people to become self-reliant in terms of hot water (or as it has gone broader, no big deal there). Propane is not as you have to depend on others to acquire it and process it, where as harvesting trees yourself is self-reliant.
Sure most people can't comprehend doing things as they were back in those days, but they can learn from others or learn from trial and error as people did in the first place... or they will perish.
There is so much wrong with what that guy was trying to do it is hard to know where to being....
First, one pound of dry manure will supply between 2 and 8 cubic feet of Methane, depending on its quality. About 10% of manure is "ash", and of the remaining "volatiles" only about half is digested to Methane. The slug buildup in the digester shown in the video would shut it down within a few months. There is no way to tear it apart for cleaning. The guy learned quickly that there is a ratio of Carbon and Nitrogen that must be maintained for proper digestion. It is the same ratio that goes into making good compost piles. A compost pile would be good for a Methane digester except that it doesn't have sufficient Methane producing bacteria and it needs to be ground into almost dust and mixed with water. That's why cow, pig and chicken manure is the best material to use. Here is a table I found which gives the approximate Methane producing capabilities. A "unit" is 1,000 lbs of animal. From the table the manure most efficient in generating Methane is chicken manure.
Animal units MBTU/yr MBTU/yr/unit
Fattened Cattle 9.6 89.9 9.3
Milk Cows 12.3 92.1 7.5
Swine 8.5 124 14.6
Poultry 6.1 125 20.5
The gas produced in a Methane generator usually contains 60-70% methane, 30-40% carbon dioxide, and 1-2% hydrogen sulfide, which is toxic. A leak of biogas into living quarters could silently kill the occupants because H2S anesthetizes the nose at lethal concentrations, so one wouldn't want a pilot light burning.
H2S burns to form Sulfur Dioxide gas, which reacts with moisture in the air to form Sulfuric Acid, the principal component of acid rain. It is very corrosive to metals and lungs. To scrub the H2S from the biogas in a SHTF scenario the easiest way to make a scrubber would be to bubble the biogas through a solution of white ash made from burned wood, which contains Lye. That would also remove the CO2 from the gas. Boiling a solution of white wood ash and animal fat produces "Ivory" soap. White ash is the white powdery remains of a wood fire that doesn't contain unburned Carbon, i.e., charcoal. A Warm Morning wood burning stove creates good piles of white ash, more like a gray talcum powder.
My family and I lived out in the country, 5 miles from the nearest village of 500, where I taught science and math. When the Arab oil embargo hit in 1972 Propane became so expensive that I switched to a coal burning stove, which was almost a disaster. Too hard to control the temp. Switching to wood and using a 21" chain saw my son and I would cut dead wood every Wednesday and Saturday, filling the trunk of a Ford Fairlane 500 junker that I drove specifically for that purpose. The house we lived in was the oldest in Merrick County, built in 1887, mainly out of Cotton Wood. It was not insulated. Four Mesquite logs about 5-6" in diameter and 18" long would keep the two story house warm all night in the middle of January. About 250 of those logs make a cord. In my experience burning wood from October to March I burned about 2 to 2 1/2 cord of Mesquite. Ash was good (3 - 3 1/2 cord), Chinese Elm acceptable (took 4 - 4 1/2 cord). Chinese Elm was the most common wood, besides Cottonwood. Ceder was poor because it had too much hydrocarbon volatiles and burned up too quickly, leaving a lot of soot in the stove pipe. Cottonwood was terrible, and it is impossible to split. Using just 6" diameter branches it would take, I'd guess, 10 - 15 cord to heat the house. You'll use Ceder and Cottonwood only once. Mesquite is very hard, and after cutting though an 18" diameter log three or four times I'd have to get out the sharpener and sharpen the chain.
I had an advantage because a LOT of farms had tree lots behind their houses, or nearby, which were planted when farmers heated and cooked with wood and had to keep a nearby supply handy. After propane arrived the wood lots were neglected and were full of a lot of dead, dry wood. Just perfect for me. I was often asked to come by and "clean out" an old wood lot. However, after about five years a LOT of folks were beginning to burn wood and those wood lots were seen as another income source. That was about the time I quit teaching and started my computer consulting business.
That was just something I found on a brief search, I never meant it to sound like it was a sound method or not. From first looks, it seems like a decent premise, that is all. I was wondering about the leftover waste and cleaning the system as well.
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I think your definition of "off the grid" is different from the definition in common use, Proto. I know a number of people who live off the grid but they still go to the store to buy groceries and clothing. They still purchase gasoline for their vehicles and implements. In a SHTF scenario, resources will still be available. The means of acquiring them may change, however.
If you think you can heat your water and home this way and aren't willing to listen to those with experience telling you how difficult it would be, why did you even ask the question in the first place?
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I think your definition of "off the grid" is different from the definition in common use, Proto. I know a number of people who live off the grid but they still go to the store to buy groceries and clothing. They still purchase gasoline for their vehicles and implements. In a SHTF scenario, resources will still be available. The means of acquiring them may, however.
If you think you can heat your water and home this way and aren't willing to listen to those with experience telling you how difficult it would
be, why did you even ask the question in the first place?
Have you actually read every word? Because a single word changes an entire sentence.
Then they are not truly off the grid now are they...now do they have a head start? Yes, they do. Can they finish going off grid if need be? sure, they are already partly there. But are they off grid now? No, they are not.
Did I say it would be easy at any time? No, I didn't,... and I didn't ask any question of the sort that you seem think was asked. I already know how difficult it can be from my own experience. So, don't sit there lecture me. And if you think resources and such will be available during a true SHTF event to just wonder down to a store for purchase, you have another thing coming (sorry to tear down your fantasy).
But don't get all pissy because propane isn't what you and many others thought. Using propane is not off the grid, it is merely replacing a pipe with a delivery service or pick-up (which is actually worse since you are now using 2 kinds of fuels instead of 1 and the road grid, thus making you more dependent on the grid/system then you were before).
The problem here is that when people hear "off the grid"; they think just the power lines, water pipes, gas pipes, phone lines, etc...those grids (or in other terms: direct connect) and forget about the indirect (same issue is in many areas, people never want to look at the indirect). Having a cell phone is not being off the grid. Having internet is not off the grid. Having satellite is not off the grid. Being dependent on the grid/system in any manner, whether directly or indirectly, you are not truly "off the grid"...you may be partially off, but not completely.
And how many times do I have to say it: something you can build yourself out of materials already in home (no purchases, truly off the grid\system) with relative ease of construction and maintain it under your own skills/abilities, not purchasing things.... I did not say it would be easy to maintain....things that are truly worth while are never easy. The question was whether anyone had other ideas that would meet the same criteria as that system above would.
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Any truly "off the grid" move would be equivalent to traveling back in time to pre-1887 days, before the use of electricity and gasoline, or any significant mass transit. IF, after a national disaster of any kind, if the power doesn't come back on line and the food and fuel deliveries do not resume with 3 months there will be mass starvations. Between the onset of the disaster and deaths of untold millions of people would be civil chaos that even the federal government could not restrain or contain. Just view some of the videos of the fighting in Damascus, Syria on Youtube. (Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world. Some think we are witnessing its final destruction as prophesied in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV) ). One can plainly see that even those who supported the FSA rebels capturing their towns left the towns as refugees because the infrastructure was destroyed and there was no way to get food, water, electricity or fuel.
That means that were the "stuff" to actually hit the fan 99% of the people would not be prepared, even the heavily armed ones with 1, 2 or even 5 years of food and supplies stashed away. Where would they seek refuge if it is the same everywhere? The most important long term survival (decades) resources they'd lack would be good dry land farm ground, seeds, farm implements and the animals to power them. PLUS, the skill to use the equipment and feed and care for the animals. VERY FEW people have that knowledge or necessary equipment or supplies. Even if they did, they'd still face the problem of surviving until the threat posed by wandering throngs of armed people eventually died off. Having firearms and a sufficient supply of ammo is only a fraction of the materials and skill necessary to have for long term survival. Especially if you are parents with children too small to contribute or even help defend. Right now, how many have the space or can even afford to keep seeds, farming implements, tackle, horses or oxen around in case the SHTF? Very, very few. More than likely, any who have thought about it will come to t he conclusion that the only way to get that stuff is to steal it from those who have it after the SHTF. Thus, there will be a "me against them" mentality like you've never witnessed before.
More than likely small rural farming communities, villages with 500 or less, will re-organize into a self sustaining "fortress", like medieval times, defending themselves against outsiders. Solar powered motion detectors, lookout towers and walkie-talkie comm systems. Their biggest problem will be obtaining fuel, but they'll probably modify their community sanitation system to create methane and fertilizer for their crops. The village i lived near for 10 years, Clarks, Nebraska, is like that. Two hundred hard working adults, and their children, with a widely varying skill set, a machine shop, emergency power generator, and several thousand gallons of Propane that could be rationed out for generating electricity and gas powered machinery for farming a section of surround land for food. Being in the Platte valley the water table is less than 10 feet down. The surrounding country side could be "raided" for building materials from abandon homesteads, barns and out buildings, plus metal resources from discarded farming implements, etc. Old windmills that pumped water could be restored to working condition and moved to town for people and animals and watering farm land.
Those hoping to forage for food will be disappointed. During the first 90 days, after the grocery shelves have been emptied out, people will start shooting, trapping or seining everything that moves (but will never touch worms, a major source of clean protein, or insects) on the ground, flies through the air or swims in the water. Will wildlife enough survive to replenish? Probably, in some areas, but it will take years for previous numbers to be restored, and for wildlife to migrate into areas that were cleaned out. As I write, 90% of the fish stocks along most coastlines around the world are exhausted. That's why farming will be so important.
But, I'm 72. For me, it wouldn't matter if SHTF or not, my days on this world are numbered. I'm passed the "three score and ten" and am now taking the test of "by reason of strength" to see how many years I have left. It's my children and grandchildren I fear for. And, to be blunt, their hope is the same as the one I hold on to. I've read the Book.. The guy on the White Horse wins.
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Any truly "off the grid" move would be equivalent to traveling back in time to pre-1887 days, before the use of electricity and gasoline, or any significant mass transit. IF, after a national disaster of any kind, if the power doesn't come back on line and the food and fuel deliveries do not resume with 3 months there will be mass starvations. Between the onset of the disaster and deaths of untold millions of people would be civil chaos that even the federal government could not restrain or contain. Just view some of the videos of the fighting in Damascus, Syria on Youtube. (Damascus is the oldest continually inhabited city in the world. Some think we are witnessing its final destruction as prophesied in http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+17&version=NIV) ). One can plainly see that even those who supported the FSA rebels capturing their towns left the towns as refugees because the infrastructure was destroyed and there was no way to get food, water, electricity or fuel.
That means that were the "stuff" to actually hit the fan 99% of the people would not be prepared, even the heavily armed ones with 1, 2 or even 5 years of food and supplies stashed away. Where would they seek refuge if it is the same everywhere? The most important long term survival (decades) resources they'd lack would be good dry land farm ground, seeds, farm implements and the animals to power them. PLUS, the skill to use the equipment and feed and care for the animals. VERY FEW people have that knowledge or necessary equipment or supplies. Even if they did, they'd still face the problem of surviving until the threat posed by wandering throngs of armed people eventually died off. Having firearms and a sufficient supply of ammo is only a fraction of the materials and skill necessary to have for long term survival. Especially if you are parents with children too small to contribute or even help defend. Right now, how many have the space or can even afford to keep seeds, farming implements, tackle, horses or oxen around in case the SHTF? Very, very few. More than likely, any who have thought about it will come to t he conclusion that the only way to get that stuff is to steal it from those who have it after the SHTF. Thus, there will be a "me against them" mentality like you've never witnessed before.
More than likely small rural farming communities, villages with 500 or less, will re-organize into a self sustaining "fortress", like medieval times, defending themselves against outsiders. Solar powered motion detectors, lookout towers and walkie-talkie comm systems. Their biggest problem will be obtaining fuel, but they'll probably modify their community sanitation system to create methane and fertilizer for their crops. The village i lived near for 10 years, Clarks, Nebraska, is like that. Two hundred hard working adults, and their children, with a widely varying skill set, a machine shop, emergency power generator, and several thousand gallons of Propane that could be rationed out for generating electricity and gas powered machinery for farming a section of surround land for food. Being in the Platte valley the water table is less than 10 feet down. The surrounding country side could be "raided" for building materials from abandon homesteads, barns and out buildings, plus metal resources from discarded farming implements, etc. Old windmills that pumped water could be restored to working condition and moved to town for people and animals and watering farm land.
Those hoping to forage for food will be disappointed. During the first 90 days, after the grocery shelves have been emptied out, people will start shooting, trapping or seining everything that moves (but will never touch worms, a major source of clean protein, or insects) on the ground, flies through the air or swims in the water. Will wildlife enough survive to replenish? Probably, in some areas, but it will take years for previous numbers to be restored, and for wildlife to migrate into areas that were cleaned out. As I write, 90% of the fish stocks along most coastlines around the world are exhausted. That's why farming will be so important.
But, I'm 72. For me, it wouldn't matter if SHTF or not, my days on this world are numbered. I'm passed the "three score and ten" and am now taking the test of "by reason of strength" to see how many years I have left. It's my children and grandchildren I fear for. And, to be blunt, their hope is the same as the one I hold on to. I've read the Book.. The guy on the White Horse wins.
Which is exactly why I am talking about a truly "off the grid" and that propane does not meet that. Yes, very few have the skills to do most things....which is why I glad to have such skills as I was raised traditionally, worked on farms, and such...it gave the skills I will need to survive completely self-sufficient.
The problem with those small rural communities is that is the first place the flood of all those in the cities will strike. Yes, people will need to band together a bit in order to stand a fighting chance for the long term. What I am looking at is to be able to survive until those "fortress" communities can form up, which could take quite some time to do and even then some will be over run in the early stages.
Foragers will be doomed from the get go, that is for sure. However, can someone take materials others have left behind and make things out of them? Yes, for instance: take a good metal car hood and form a farming plow with it.
As you point out, most of the so called "preppers" out there will not survive as they fail to take into account such things as the gangs/pillagers to the level in which they will be. It won't be until after many have died of either starvation or pillaging that the strong holds will be properly formed and stand a complete chance.
Severing dependence on any such systems is a major necessity to avoid what is happening in other places. By being completely self-sufficient, you won't be one of those refugees... but again one must band with others to be able to fight back attackers effectively...but that does not mean one has to give up complete self-reliance.
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Again, "off the grid" - in the sense of common usage - means disconnected from the electrical grid and other utilities. Of course, the phrase can also carry with it the connotation of being disconnected from modern communication as well.
Using that as my definition (and that of thousands of others) being off the grid does not mean that one has to sacrifice all the modern conveniences. At our farm, we could disconnect from the grid and live quite comfortably for 2-3 years without having to sacrifice anything except Internet access (if you want to include that in being off the grid). We could run lights and electrical conveniences off of our solar array. We could heat and cook with propane (supplementing with wood if desired). We probably wouldn't run the air conditioning off of the solar array - too heavy a draw. We'd probably also dry clothes on the line rather than in the electric dryer. Not much would change - SHTF or not.
If we didn't want to purchase more propane, or if propane wasn't available, we could heat the house with wood and heat water for washing (dishes, clothing & people) on the wood-fired cook stove. Eventually, we might run out of gas for chainsaws and buzz saws, but we have a two-man felling saw and a two-man crosscut saw (MUCH faster than an axe), saw sharpening vises and files and plenty of practice using and maintaining them. I could always go back to swinging a Monster Maul to split wood if I had to.
In the final analysis, I with Grey Geek. I know where the members of my household and I will end up for eternity so I'm not overly concerned with dying ... but I'd sure rather it be quick and painless than slow and painful.
Edit: We still have a pretty fair compliment of antique farm machinery in working condition as well as the horses to pull it. We have heirloom seeds. We have a fertile dry land farm with a nearby pond. Maintaining the equipment could be a challenge. We'd have to find a blacksmith to trade with. We'd also need to find a stallion to breed our mares and produce foals because the mares would eventually die. We'd have to start harvesting a few eggs each week to hatch rather than eating them all or giving them all away.
A few things would change, but I think you're right, Proto. VERY few people are prepared to live like I did growing up. Most don't have the knowledge and skills. Many simply don't have the "gumption".
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Mudinyeri...just because you want to use a partial definition and claim so many others use it (WHICH I HAVE ALREADY RECOGNIZED AND EXPLAINED, which shows that you didn't actually read everything I wrote...or just didn't understand it... or just disregarded it). You can try and play word games and use fragmented definitions all you want...they won't work with me, I use complete definitions which are in "common usage" as you like to claim.
Off the grid is simply that, leaving the infrastructure behind... including all of its conveniences and comforts... all of it. No utilities (water, sewage, gas, electricity, etc.), disconnected from the infrastructures that makes life convenient (including roads, banks, schools, doctors, stores, etc.), no internet, no phone, none of it. Yes, one must give up all the unnecessary conveniences/comforts that have created such an unhealthy dependency on each other and organizations to be truly/completely off-grid.
Can someone be partially off-grid (i.e. solar/wind/water electricity, septic/outhouse, etc. but still have internet, phone, have a gas line or get propane)? Of course. But propane is not an off-grid option as I have explained a few times already.
To use propane at all requires one use the road grid. Then it requires one to utilize the consumer grid (stores, which get their propane from the gas company, thus you are back to using the gas grid). Then you must use the financial grid (even if you pay cash). Then you must utilize the road grid to get it back to your property. (if delivered, only the names change, same process.) So, do tell how propane is off-the-grid? Again, all propane does is change you from using one kind of grid to using another... you are still dependent. And on top of that, in order to use said road grid, you are being forced to use the government grid... thus increasing your dependency further.
The moment you can procure (meaning gather, pressurize, bottle, etc.) propane yourself from your own resources on your property ... then you can claim it to be off-grid.
As I already recognized, you and many others may be PARTIALLY (or at least heading in that direction) off the grid and have a head start in some areas and ways that buy you a bit of time....but you are not off the grid, not truly or completely.
Basically, if another person must continually provide it for you (i.e. someone must gather, refine, bottle, pressurize, ship, etc. the propane), you are on a grid of some kind if not multiple grids. Again, you as so many others are failing to see are ALL the grids that are really involved... again, there is direct and indirect, but grids all the same.
Can you utilize the grids in order to move towards going off-grid? Of course (buy what you want... if you can... personally, I don't have the financial resources)...how you get there is of no real importance... maintaining the off-grid status after the switch is what makes it truly off-grid. But this post was for those that either have no money or it's too late to purchase...something simple that can use the resources already in their homes and can be maintained by THEIR OWN abilities/skills/efforts.
Do you have to go off-grid completely and immediately? No, not until one absolutely must. But until that time, they are not truly and completely off-grid. You can be partially off-grid for time being.
You are only partially off-grid, but propane is not off-grid.
VERY few people are prepared to live like I did growing up. Most don't have the knowledge and skills. Many simply don't have the "gumption".
And those people are not yours nor my problem, if we want to help we can...but we don't have to...and they can perish, it's their problem. But those that are looking for a way and have a desire to learn or "gumption" but are just overwhelmed or not sure where to begin, just need a little nudge.
Basically, it's like those living in the areas hit by Katrina or Sandy, or other natural occurrences (I don't call them disasters, they are normal things to happen, not somethings so strange and out of the norm)...I have no pity for them, they had warnings days/weeks in advance (especially in this day and age). They know they live in a such zones. If they fail to prepare themselves and have suitable supplies/means, that's their problem and they can deal with it. It was their CHOICE to not prepare and ignore warnings, they can deal with the consequences.
I have told many people not to waste money on buying name brand shoes/cloths, candy bars, sodas, and such; buy a pair of cheap stuff (they tend to last about just as long, popular fashion is simply not important) and then put the rest of the money towards buying supplies like a few cases of bottled water.
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I'm reading what you wrote. I'm understanding it. I'm not disregarding it. I'm debating it.
Here's what comes up in a Google search for "off the grid": Not dependent on public utilities, esp. the supply of electricity.
"people living off the grid had begun using wind turbines"
Sound familiar?
So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?
I think, perhaps, the term you're looking for is "self-sufficient".
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I'm reading what you wrote. I'm understanding it. I'm not disregarding it. I'm debating it.
Here's what comes up in a Google search for "off the grid": Not dependent on public utilities, esp. the supply of electricity.
"people living off the grid had begun using wind turbines"
Sound familiar?
So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?
I think, perhaps, the term you're looking for is "self-sufficient".
Then what are you not understanding?
I have searched but as seen and recognize: people fail to see all the grids that are actually involved. As I already explained and recognized, most people only say its the disconnect from the direct connection to the utility companies...but there is more to it than that, they are disregarding the indirect grids.
Even one of the primary, off-grid sites recognizes what I am talking about.
http://www.off-grid.net/2012/02/11/what-is-living-off-grid/ (http://www.off-grid.net/2012/02/11/what-is-living-off-grid/)
Again, most only think about the direct connect and the utility companies. I am talking about something much deeper.
Being self-sufficient and self-reliant are necessities of going off-grid, without self-sufficiency/reliance it is impossible to go off-grid.
Again, that is only a single grid and a single kind of grid... you are only using a portion of the complete meaning, not its entirety. There are more grids than those provided by the utility companies.
There is simply a larger meaning. To have a grid does not require a physical connection.
Using propane you are still dependent on a utility company, just in a different way....as explained already.
But you have yet to explain how propane is off-grid (using the full meaning, not just a portion of it) when you are merely placing a store and road between you and the gas company or different gas company, rather than a gas company pumping it right to you. Switching companies or where you get it is not going off-grid, it's how you get it.
And as stated, propane is not viable option as when SHTF hits either, it won't be available and any supplies that can be found will either be exuberantly high cost or you will be lucky to survive getting it back to your property.
So, if I pull a propane trailer with a horse, off road and I barter for the propane rather than pay money for it ... I'm "off the grid" (in your mind)?
No, you can do that to gain the components to be able to set something up to procure the propane yourself. Basically, any re-occurring costs (if you have to give something to another to get something else) will connect you to a grid of some kind (all it takes is 2 points to create a grid, that is after all how all grids start). If you have to return to get more gas over and over, they become your utility company.
Again, it's not the use of propane that makes it not off-grid; it's the re-occurring costs, the continuation (in other terms, dependency) of connection to others that creates the "grid" (and if you haven't figured out, "grid" is not always in the literal sense).
Using propane is the same as bartering/buying batteries over and over again to power your house instead of having a cable from the "traditional" electric company (it only takes 1 person to be a company and if another individual is providing your fuel/electricity/water/etc. they are a utility company) provide it. It's also the same as buying/bartering for your food instead of having it delivered to you.
No, you must be the provider/producer of the expendables to be off-grid.
I think you are just caught up in the whole "traditional" or "common use" aspect...well the use of propane is quite "traditional"/"common use" now days.
Also, "traditional" or "common use" as in getting it from someone else instead of procuring it yourself.
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I think you are just caught up in the whole "traditional" or "common use" aspect...well the use of propane is quite "traditional"/"common use" now days.
You're probably right. I'm "caught up" in the meaning that millions of people recognize rather than an expanded meaning perhaps recognized by hundreds or thousands.
Definitions are important.
Just as important is realizing that, in all likelihood, you'll eventually need to rely on others in a true SHTF scenario.
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Just because the masses recognize something or do something, doesn't make it correct or right... not everything is up to a vote or popular belief, in fact very few things are (i.e. rights are not open for voting and are not based on popular belief, they exist and there is nothing anyone can do about it).
Just as important is realizing that, in all likelihood, you'll eventually need to rely on others in a true SHTF scenario.
There is no doubt there. That is how everything started, no one wanted to leave others well enough alone. Also, that is recognized in the Declaration of Independence.
But you can limit how much you rely on each other by limiting the connections you have...hence the full off-grid meaning. You can band together for mutual security (on your own, not hiring someone to do it for you, your [and your immediate family's] safety is your concern and yours alone and no one has any business/right putting someone else in harms way for their sake) without being dependent on each other for security or anything else at all. Maintaining that independence, that freedom, that self-reliance/sufficiency is paramount.... if you want to be free.
Basically, we must maintain our distance from each other and sever all of our dependencies from each other in order to be able to breath the fresh air that is freedom. There is a reason why the cities have such problems...too many people too close together too dependent, not enough space and independence.
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Just because the masses recognize something or do something, doesn't make it correct or right... not everything is up to a vote or popular belief, in fact very few things are (i.e. rights are not open for voting and are not based on popular belief, they exist and there is nothing anyone can do about it).
No, but if you start calling the color red "blue" you're going to have a hard time getting along in this world.
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calling the color red "blue"
For some people that is 100% true... (not important, just being a smartass)
As for getting along, did I say anything that went against the definition? No, I just used actual complete definition most people don't even know of. Just because I reveal and utilize information others simply don't have, does not mean I'm wrong or anything. It just means I am more informed.
Also, really going to try and play that game? Edison, Tesla, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Socrates, Plato, etc. all went against popular belief and popular thought because they knew they were right and they knew the current beliefs in the world were wrong... Just as the current POPULAR beliefs today are completely wrong.
What is right, moral, and just is rarely if ever the popular thing to do...but it is what must be done and should always be done...regardless of any law, popular belief, or popular demand. Popularity means nothing.
There are more important things in life than "getting along".
I found an interesting quote the other day...(though at the moment I can't remember the person's name)...
it goes something like this:
"If you find yourself agreeing with the majority, you better think twice to see if they are in the wrong."