NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: OnTheFly on July 07, 2014, 05:44:29 PM
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Not that I've ever done such a thing, but I'm just curious what a round that was subjected to this "hypothetical" scenario might do.
Whatever your answer is, please give your reasoning.
Fly
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The way I am reading your question I understand that you are asking if it will fire in a gun after the torture test of cleaning and exposure to high heat. It might!
If you mean that will the cleaning and/or 200 degrees cook off the round;
More likely if the sonic cleaner is a liquid the vibratory action would likely allow the powder and primer to be contaminated.
Since it takes Nearly 300 degrees plus to cook off a round 200 degrees in the oven won't do it.
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Since it takes Nearly 300 degrees plus to cook off a round 200 degrees in the oven won't do it.
You sound like you have experience with this.
;D
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Did you try one out yesterday? :laugh:
I kinda think the sonic cleaner liquid would contaminate the powder as well.
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The way I am reading your question I understand that you are asking if it will fire in a gun after the torture test of cleaning and exposure to high heat.
Yes...that is the question. Poll question and thread title edited to clarify my question.
Fly
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Hmmm...the poll is even at 3 and 3. We could make this a fundraiser. Everyone makes their educated guess, and then I take it to the range and see if it fires. Those that guess wrong, owe the NFOA or NFOA PAF $5. Of course, if the gun blows up in my hand, all funds will be needed for the medical bills. ;D
Fly
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Only if you hold said round between your fingers and strike the primer with 16 penny nail.....
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I voted yes, but, really there are so many variables, I think its probably impossible to reliably predict
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I voted yes, but, really there are so many variables, I think its probably impossible to reliably predict
I agree...that's what makes it EXCITING.
Fly
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20 minutes in liquid is not enough time to wet the powder even with unsealed ammunition
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20 minutes in liquid is not enough time to wet the powder even with unsealed ammunition
Alrighty...we have a challenger speaking with confidence. What do you say folks. Is he right or wrong?
Fly
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Try it in a boom box, remotely firing the round in question.
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Try it in a boom box, remotely firing the round in question.
I would if I had one, but my rapping days are well behind me. I sold the boom box to buy my KL-1.
Fly
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Dan, did you take into account the vibration and that it might be a crappy reload with a loose primer pocket?
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20 minutes in liquid is not enough time to wet the powder even with unsealed ammunition
I will revise my remarks to exclude reloaded ammo that may have a loose or out of round primer pocket, but new factory ammo...I am pretty confident
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Dan, did you take into account the vibration and that it might be a crappy reload with a loose primer pocket?
Crappy reload?! Crappy reload?! I will have you know that nearly 70% of my reloads go off. If not on the first firing pin strike, at LEAST by the third or fourth.
Fly
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Consider this..... the air trapped in the cartridge expands as it is heated from ambient to 140*F, making the pressure inside the cartridge higher than atmospheric pressure. That positive pressure would prevent any water intrusion until the pressures equalized.
There is even the possibility that the air pressure inside the cartridge was already higher than atmospheric pressure because the air was compressed as the bullet was inserted, making this 20 minute water intrusion scenario even less likely.
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I would agree Dan, but I still have to consider the OP specified a reload so there might not be a tight enough seal around the bullet and/or primer to create the pressure you allude to.
Also to be considered; is the liquid media molecular components smaller or larger than that of water?
Does it make a difference if it is a compressed load :P ;D 8)
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As this is a reload, I would expect some moisture to get in around the primer. In addition to moisture, heat causes powder and primers to start to decompose. Based on this I would not expect the round to fire, if it dose fire it is not going to work right.
John K
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20 minutes in liquid is not enough time to wet the powder even with unsealed ammunition
WWII contact mines were packed with Nitrocellulose, which often got wet due to leakages. The primer set them off anyway, wet or not, when a ship bumped into them. The contact mechanism, if corroded, may fail to fire the primer and trigger a blast, but Nitrocellulose is not water soluble. The nitrated cotton is dissolved in Acetone, or some other suitable solvent, camphor, or some other plasticizer is added to keep it soft after the solvent evaporates, and the mixture is poured into the mine and fills up the cavity. So, even if the mine casing leaks the sea water won't affect it. Nitrocellulose does not need to be confined because it detonates, so even if the shell of the mine rusted almost completely away as long as an active trigger was in mechanical contact it will explode. I suspect that most of you reading this are familiar with ping pong balls, which are (were?) made of nitrocellulose and when lit by a match burn with a quick flash. One could take many of them, grind them to small particles, pack them in a container, and ignite them with a primer. Will they explode or just conflagrate? Depends on the percentage of Nitrocellulose.
The big questions are:
1) "Will the sonic cleaner cause the liquid to seep past the crimping seal of the casing against the lead bullet?" and
2) "If cleaner gets into the casing will it affect the cordite or the primer?"
If the cleaning solvent dissolves the primer material the bullet will not fire. Among priming materials used today is Lead 2,4,6-trinitroresorcinate, usually referred to as lead styphnate. It is soluble in water to less than 1 hundredth of a gram per 100CC of water, which is essentially insoluble, but can be neutralized by Sodium Carbonate, which is caustic. Cordite, usually coated in Graphite, is not water soluble.
http://design.caltech.edu/micropropulsion/msds_w79.pdf (http://design.caltech.edu/micropropulsion/msds_w79.pdf)
PHYSICAL DATA
Appearance: Rectangular plates
Freezing Point: Not Applicable
Boiling Point: Not Applicable
Decomposition Temperature: EXPLODES at 330 Deg.C (626 Deg.F)
Specific Gravity: 3.878
Bulk Density: 1.5 (g/cc)
pH @ 25° C: 6-7 (solution)
Vapor Pressure @ 25° C: Not Applicable
Solubility in Water: < 0.01%
Volatiles, Percent by Volume: Not Applicable
Evaporation Rate: Not Applicable
Vapor Density: Not Applicable
Molecular Weight: 705.53
Odor: None
Coefficient of Oil/Water: No Data
So, the final answer is: unless the casing to bullet seal leaks cleaning fluid, and that cleaning fluid contains Sodium Carbonate, and during the cleaning process the primer never reaches 360C (620F), the bullet will discharge if used in a gun.
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So, the final answer is: unless the casing to bullet seal leaks cleaning fluid, and that cleaning fluid contains Sodium Carbonate, and during the cleaning process the primer never reaches 360C (620F) the bullet will discharge if used in a gun.
Excellent answer, but did you vote?
Fly
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Fer cryin' out loud.......
Somebody just go do one and then report back to the whole Forum on it.
Now..........................Where's unfy when you need him?
sfg
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Fer cryin' out loud.......
Somebody do one and then report back to the whole Forum on it.
Now..........................Where's unfy when you need him?
sfg
Hmmm...I just MIGHT have a round that fits this specific profile. Maybe I can see if it fires sometime this week.
Fly
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FLY..........
Be Careful!
If you go the Hard Way, who's going to shake the money tree for NFOA?
sfg
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Hmmm...I just MIGHT have a round that fits this specific profile. Maybe I can see if it fires sometime this week.
Fly
Be sure to use your k l :laugh:
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I went to the range today, and I have the definitive answer. ::)
I am wondering though if ya'll think it would be worthwhile to start a new thread with a poll and ask everyone to play. If they answer incorrectly, then their punishment will be the shame of being wrong and they have to donate $5 to the NFOA or NFOA PAF. The folks that answer correctly get to walk away knowing the are absolute geniuses when it comes to reloading.
OR, should we just answer the original question?
What say you all?
Fly
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Fly, answer the question, the suspense is killing us ;D
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Fly, answer the question, the suspense is killing us ;D
Hmmm...I'm not sure. Would kind of like to turn this into a game of sorts. Regardless, it will be a while before I am discharged from the hospital and can get home to post the video.
Fly
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I'll jump the gun on Fly.
It went BANG!!!!
(And I wuzn't even there. And don't even really know. But it did. )
It's just that ammo is tuff.
sfg
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I kind of figure out of 11 rounds treated like this, 5 will go off, 5 wont. and one... well BOOOOOOM :o
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Sure it would. As long as it was loaded correctly in the first place.
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Anyone else want to vote before I have the big unveiling of the answer?
Fly
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...I hate waiting in traffic, in lines and now this....
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Wow! The "Will fire" sayers are out voting the "nay" sayers. Maybe it's just people showing their confidence in my reloading skills. ;D
Fly
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And the answer is...
http://youtu.be/RM6VQ0jPZd4?list=UUb41hgDEMHOcSInbjPzcDYA (http://youtu.be/RM6VQ0jPZd4?list=UUb41hgDEMHOcSInbjPzcDYA)
Sorry for the poor video/audio quality.
Fly
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ALRIGHT! Looks like I won, what was the prize again?
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ALRIGHT! Looks like I won, what was the prize again?
You DON'T owe the NFOA or NFOA POF $5, AND you get to brag about how incredibly adept you are on the subject of reloading.
Fly
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50/50 shot at getting it right, plus the voting tab is anonymous, so I had 100% chance of winning!
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...knew it all along.