NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: depserv on February 22, 2017, 04:27:35 PM
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Doors leading into the mall at Oak View have signs on them saying law-abiding civilians are not allowed to bear arms inside. But today I walked into the mall through doors leading into Dillards, and I saw no signs on those doors. So a person unfamiliar with that place who goes in through those doors would not have any way of knowing that the premises are under the control of America-hating bigots.
So say a person goes in that way and assumes the mall is run by loyal Americans and it's ok to carry inside, and some fat clumsy liberal bigot stumbles into him and feels the gun he's carrying and throws a liberal tantrum and gets him busted. Would he be able to defend himself effectively by pointing out that no sign was present on the doors he came in through?
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Nebraska Revised Statute 69-2441
69-2441.
Permitholder; locations; restrictions; posting of prohibition; consumption of alcohol; prohibited.
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(2) If a person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or an employer in control of the property prohibits a permitholder from carrying a concealed handgun into or onto the place or premises and such place or premises are open to the public, a permitholder does not violate this section unless the person, persons, entity, or entities in control of the property or employer in control of the property has posted conspicuous notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited in or on the place or premises or has made a request, directly or through an authorized representative or management personnel, that the permitholder remove the concealed handgun from the place or premises
Nothing that is conspicuous is on any door I go in and since I am generally only there for my wife to shop we have gone in the doors for the stores. I can honestly say I have never seen a sign at the mall, although I have heard there is one posted with rules that say no firearms.
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I've seen them at the mall entrance
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Entrance to the mall itself or one of the store entrances? I only enter through the stores and have never seen a sign posted anywhere on those doors.
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The entrance to the mall itself, not through a store.
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And there is your problem. ;)
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Well actually it's my question. If not all doors are posted, and a person comes in through a door that is not posted and gets caught being armed (which, admittedly, is unlikely, but still possible), would the door he came through not having been posted be a defense that would keep him from losing his right to bear arms?
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Well actually it's my question. If not all doors are posted, and a person comes in through a door that is not posted and gets caught being armed (which, admittedly, is unlikely, but still possible), would the door he came through not having been posted be a defense that would keep him from losing his right to bear arms?
I believe it would be defensible. In a situation like that you would want to immediately take photos of the entrance you used. You could get lucky and have the prosecutor decide not to pursue charges or you could end up spending time and money going to court to fight it. IANAL
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i would go and take pic's of the door as mentioned but would all so contact that stores security dept and ask for a time stamped copy of video proving you entered a un-posted door. or ask a lawyer to subpoena the video if the store will not supply it willingly
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The Question I have is "Are the doors entering into the mall are from the stores posted?"
It could be the Stores them selves will allow you to carry.
But the Mall Areas them self's do not.
So as long as you don't enter the Mall areas your fine.
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My suspicion is that until depserv's question is adjudicated by a judge, then by the Nebraska Supreme Court on appeal, we won't have an answer. I don't think I can afford to volunteer.
Nebraska law just says that a sign must be conspicuously posted (018.04). It does not require postings at each door or even the type of sign. The Nebraska State Patrol (18.05) "strongly suggests standardized signage and placement but states it's recommendations are not part of state law.
For what it is worth, for my interpretation, one sign on a premises "could" be sufficient to get us busted, even with the size and scope of a mall.
Again, a judge would have to answer this to really know.
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It does not require postings at each door or even the type of sign
Read the legal definition of " conspicuous signage" in the CHPA rules and regulations
The Administrative Code Title 272 Chapter 21 definitions state:
002.013 "Posted Conspicuous Notice" shall mean a clearly visible sign at each public entrance to a place or premises that clearly state that concealed handguns are not allowed in the place or on the premises. A recommended format for the sign can be found in section 018.04 of these regulations.
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002.013 "Posted Conspicuous Notice" shall mean a clearly visible sign at each public entrance to a place or premises that clearly state that concealed handguns are not allowed in the place or on the premises. A recommended format for the sign can be found in section 018.04 of these regulations.
To me this would mean that a sign would need to be on each entrance to the mall for it to have the effect of law... interesting. I hope a judge would see it the same way.
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I don't know about the Oak View Mall, but this is the code of conduct sign at Westroads. I've only seen it at the main entrances to the mall (just inside the doors). As far as I can tell people won't see it if they enter through a store entrance (I've looked when entering through J.C. Penney or The Container Store).
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Concealed is Concealed
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Concealed is Concealed
be warned...inciting illegal acts will end your fun here
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be warned...inciting illegal acts will end your fun here
I would never suggest such a thing.
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I would never suggest such a thing.
you already have
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you already have
Sure. OK
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There.
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There.
what?
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Concealed is Concealed
That only works if you don't get caught. I don't know Georgia law but, in Nebraska, "No Guns" signs have the force of law. If you are caught carrying past one, the first conviction is a misdemeanor and subsequent ones are felonies. I can't think of anything at a shopping mall that would justify risking a criminal record.
There are better ways to deal with businesses that prohibit firearms. A local mall proposed doing that but changed their minds after many concealed handgun permit holders contacted them with the question, "Why do you want to alienate the customers who are least likely to cause problems?"
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That only works if you don't get caught. I don't know Georgia law but, in Nebraska, "No Guns" signs have the force of law. If you are caught carrying past one, the first conviction is a misdemeanor and subsequent ones are felonies. I can't think of anything at a shopping mall that would justify risking a criminal record.
There are better ways to deal with businesses that prohibit firearms. A local mall proposed doing that but changed their minds after many concealed handgun permit holders contacted them with the question, "Why do you want to alienate the customers who are least likely to cause problems?"
In GA, the citizen does not have the right to destroy the constitutional rights of the gun owner.
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In GA, the citizen does not have the right to destroy the constitutional rights of the gun owner.
According to the HandgunLaw web site, "No Guns" signs do not have the force of law in Georgia. They do in Nebraska and getting caught has serious consequences. The two states also differ on the requirement to notify a police officer that you are carrying when he makes official contact with you. I don't know what Georgia would do about a permit if they received a letter from a Nebraska court advising them of a permit holder's conviction for something that isn't illegal in Georgia.
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According to the HandgunLaw web site, "No Guns" signs do not have the force of law in Georgia. They do in Nebraska and getting caught has serious consequences. The two states also differ on the requirement to notify a police officer that you are carrying when he makes official contact with you. I don't know what Georgia would do about a permit if they received a letter from a Nebraska court advising them of a permit holder's conviction for something that isn't illegal in Georgia.
Correct. It's much more logical here. Any random Joe can't eliminate your right to bear arms with a note on the door.
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A local mall proposed doing that but changed their minds after many concealed handgun permit holders contacted them with the question, "Why do you want to alienate the customers who are least likely to cause problems?"
Just curious, which mall was this? I don't remember hearing about it.
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Just curious, which mall was this? I don't remember hearing about it.
NEX
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NEX
Created quite the stir.
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I believe they left it to the tenants and only two are posted.
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Concealed is Concealed
There are ways you could get caught, albeit unlikely. As I mentioned in the OP what if a fat clumsy obnoxious feminist rubs up against you in a crowded store and feels your gun and then starts screaming "He's got a gun!!!" and throws the kind of fit liberal cattle are famous for? Or say you trip and fall and hit your head or break something and have to get taken to a hospital? Or say a gang of racist liberal bigots like Antifa or something decides you look like a patriot and threatens you with assault; you make it known to them that you have a gun and because of that they back off, and then go call the police and say an evil white man threatened them with a gun in a place that was supposed to be sanitized of such things. Since no fight took place and since they are multiple witnesses against you being a single witness they make it look like you were some paranoid gun-toting redneck who was simply prejudiced and threatened them based on that prejudice. You know and they know your gun stopped an assault, and with enough money maybe you can prove that in court, but you will still be convicted of exercising your right to bear arms in a venue where that right has been denied. Of course not getting beat up by a gang might make that worthwhile I suppose. But I would rather just stay out of such places.
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I hear there is something posted at the main entrances, but I have been in and out of the Oak View Mall a great deal and I have never seen anything that looks like something posted. Of course when I go I usually enter through the stores not the main entrances.
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I hear there is something posted at the main entrances, but I have been in and out of the Oak View Mall a great deal and I have never seen anything that looks like something posted. Of course when I go I usually enter through the stores not the main entrances.
You never should have made this post because now they can prove that you knew...
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You never should have made this post because now they can prove that you knew...
Only if heresay is admissible. I have neither confirmed nor validated this information.