NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: 2guns on April 21, 2013, 11:26:35 PM
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I got stopped for missing front plate the screws had pulled out lost it who knows where, anyway I don't have a cc so I was oc with a .380 I keep it holstered between the seat and if I get pulled over it goes on the dash. I was on my way to work this particular morning NSP pulled me over I put the pistol on the dash and when the leo approached the car I informed him I had my pistol in the car he then asked for my cc card I informed him I was oc and did not have one. He then ask me if I would hand him the pistol while he checked my lic reg and ins. I said fine. After he returned he gave me a verbal warning. handed lic reg and ins back , then my pistol with the mag out and 2 loose bullets, and said they are not allowed to hand a loaded weapon back. He then informed me he ran a check to see if it was stolen any everything checked out, and I was on my way Pissed mind you that now my hand gun that was never tied to me in any way I'm sure they have a database and I would have never handed it over had I known he would do that. I will never make that mistake again I guess next time I will be late for work. I did call the state patrol to ***** that got me no where. thoughts?
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While I don't know if there is a database or not, I don't think you have a choice to refuse surrendering your pistol to a LEO during official contact if ordered to do so. As far as I know, most states (I don't know if NE is one) have a law that allows LEOs to disarm citizens during official contact for "officer safety" or some such.
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I'm sure that is at their discresion because this is the first time in 20 years this has happened one other time the officer put the pistol on the roof of the car I was driving. I would say though they should not be able to search the serial # without a warrant. That is the part that upset me. They government does not need to know what I own when they start confiscation those will be the ones they go after first. If they don't know you have it, its hard to take it from you. Next time I will refuse and offer to exit the vehicle if they feel safer.
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I know of a case like yours. Trooper stopped the vehicle for speeding, weapon out in the open. Trooper ran the serial number but transposed two numbers. Weapon was returned to the owner. Owner went on to kill 5 people in one of the most horrific bankrobberies in recent history.
You are probably lucky it was a state trooper and not an OPD officer. "subject made furtive movement towards the seat, what appeared to be a firearm was seen in his right hand, Officer fired to prevent serious injury to self and others. EOR"
And I think you can rest assured that the trooper did not put you in some type of data base where they will come in the middle of the night an confiscate your weapons.
If they really wanted to know who had weapons, a little leagal work, a lenient judge, a court order, and the fishing expedition is on.
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i fail to see the problem? If they check the serial number to verify legality, no big deal. If you bought it legally you shouldn't be concerned.
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i fail to see the problem? If they check the serial number to verify legality, no big deal. If you bought it legally you shouldn't be concerned.
He is concerned about his firearm being listed in a government database somewhere as his.
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I guess being former military I am on so many lists already that it doesn't bother me.
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i fail to see the problem? If they check the serial number to verify legality, no big deal. If you bought it legally you shouldn't be concerned.
Actually you should be glad it wasn't on the List I'm sure he was checking it against.
The national database of Stolen Firarms that is. :(
Like Gsd I too am Ex Military and on lots of lists and
add being a Nebraska CCP holder to that long line of list too now.
Being ex-military and a CCP holder those lists have lots of Bio-data on me attached to them as well.
Guess that means My serial number has been registered by the goverment for 30 years now. 8)
as for any guns ....only my FFL dealer knows for sure. :P
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I'd be surprised if the serial number was recorded in any way. Checking a serial number against a database is different than entering the serial number into the db and associating it with a specific individual. Not to say it couldn't be done, but I doubt it.
I think the form 4473 is a bigger issue, but that's obviously another thread.
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All interesting thoughts. If you have ever bought a pistol in Lincoln you know you fill out a card that goes directly to the LPD with all your information. I would bet that if they ever pull your DL up that info comes up. My main point is that it is an illegal search of said person and merely exercising your rights is not proof of any wrong doing. And as far as moving my holstered pistol from the seat to the dash there is no way it would be noticed or I would leave it where it sit because it is still in the open ( its not like I'm field stripping my handgun and unloading the mag and putting them in a zip lock bag) sorry read that somewhere else and thought it was quite interesting. Im not trying to be an a$$ or anything I have open carried since I got out of high school and not once until last year had that ever happened.
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I would bet that if they ever pull your DL up that info comes up.
Not as far as I have ever been told by anyone who works LE.
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My main point is that it is an illegal search of said person and merely exercising your rights is not proof of any wrong doing.
Please clarify your comment. What "illegal search" occurred?
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taking possession of weapon, search on serial number, RRS 29-829. Offense, operating motor vehicle without front license plate RRS 60-3,100.
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Not as far as I have ever been told by anyone who works LE.
about two years ago i was hit by a drunk driver late at night. i had 1 beer, so i took the sobriety test. of course i passed, but i had to wait 17 minutes before i could take it. ok, long story short... guess what we talked about? well, the officer in the front seat showed me what comes up in their computer. only my CHP info, mailing address, name, etc came up, nothing about owning a pistol. i filled one of those cards out once, but then i got my CHP.
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There was no "search". You notified him of it and of course he saw it. Anything in plain view has already been determined by the courts to be subject to reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Your "consent" occurred when you informed him of the firearm and obviously pointed it out......
about two years ago i was hit by a drunk driver late at night. i had 1 beer, so i took the sobriety test. of course i passed, but i had to wait 17 minutes before i could take it. ok, long story short... guess what we talked about? well, the officer in the front seat showed me what comes up in their computer. only my CHP info, mailing address, name, etc came up, nothing about owning a pistol. i filled one of those cards out once, but then i got my CHP.
I take it you were not carrying while imbibing .....
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I take it you were not carrying while imbibing .....
yes, not carrying... i just got off work and picked up my wife. since, i work at an anti-gun place, so i can't even store it at work in my vehicle.
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You are probably lucky it was a state trooper and not an OPD officer. "subject made furtive movement towards the seat, what appeared to be a firearm was seen in his right hand, Officer fired to prevent serious injury to self and others. EOR"
I had an encounter with OPD while carrying last week. Told him I was carrying and he said "Thanks, that's good to know". With my job, I deal with OPD regularly and have found the vast majority of street officers to be very pro 2A and pro ccw. YMMV.
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The statement had nothing to do with whether OPD is 2A friendly or not. Its about reaching down and grabbing something off of the seat and bringing it up into view during a traffic stop. Makes all kind of police nervious. With the shooting and such going on in Omaha most Omaha Cops are probably on a higher alert then some others (while all should be aware, Omaha has it the worst) If the advise that is given on this site is correct, hands on the steering wheel until Police arrive at door: Officer I have a firearm right here on the seat, in view of where you are standing. Then follow directions. Reaching for something out of view, especially at night does make people get jumpy. A CHP would stop some of the furtive movements, because you don't have to touch the firearm until directed (after you advise the officer that you have a CHP and area carrying).
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The statement had nothing to do with whether OPD is 2A friendly or not. Its about reaching down and grabbing something off of the seat and bringing it up into view during a traffic stop. Makes all kind of police nervious. With the shooting and such going on in Omaha most Omaha Cops are probably on a higher alert then some others (while all should be aware, Omaha has it the worst) If the advise that is given on this site is correct, hands on the steering wheel until Police arrive at door: Officer I have a firearm right here on the seat, in view of where you are standing. Then follow directions. Reaching for something out of view, especially at night does make people get jumpy. A CHP would stop some of the furtive movements, because you don't have to touch the firearm until directed (after you advise the officer that you have a CHP and area carrying).
I'm thinking that this isn't really a problem---considering the officer doesn't stop you and run up to your door. As such, taking the firearm and moving it completely into plain sight and then having your hands away from it can easily be done before the officer gets there.
Note: I'm not saying I would suggest doing this. I am just saying that IF you do this, I don't forsee anything resembling an issue (regarding "furtive movement") if the gun is in plain sight and away from your hands before the officer gets out of his car, and you direct the officer's attention to it without hand movement when he gets to your car.
I also note that the phrase "would stop some of the furtive movements" is incorrect in that hand movement by itself is not automatically "furtive". That term has a specific LE use, and requires certain conditions to be used. ("Hand motion" is not sufficient.)
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from SJWSTI and others on handling weapons during traffic stop:
Why in the world would you complicate a regular traffic stop by handling your weapon? How is an LEO supposed to know that you are unloading and disassembling your gun? Having a weapon in your hand during a traffic stop, whatever your intention might be, could get you shot. Thats obviously not good for you, and its also not good for the LEO that you put in that position.
First traffic stop while carrying tonight
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2013, 09:18:19 PM »
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Quote from: Gary on February 20, 2013, 05:56:35 PM
I can break a Glock down with one hand in the dark. The Glock is in bits on the dash in a zip lock bag before my tires touch the shoulder.
After talking to a couple LEO's I know today (one in CB other in Omaha) can I ask that you do NOT do this if stopped in the metro? The reactions I got were not good. The CBPD said you would be "peeing in the fountain of my good natured discretion" heh, his words. The OPD said if he saw someone breaking down a weapon as he pulled them over they would not leave the stop with that weapon. It leads him to believe the weapon was not concealed and that you may have been flashing it as you drive down the street. "Cute moves like that deserve a teachable moment to help the learning curve"
Cops are people, some good, some bad, but doing something which could possibly antagonize them doesn't help any of us. SFG said in his class we have to set the best example while exercising our rights. I think he's right.
I can appreciate your perspective Gary, and I'm glad it's worked out for you. However, there is absolutely no way I'm handling my firearm without being instructed to do so by the officer if/when I am pulled over. Then again, I don't make it a habit to do anything that would get me pulled over in the first place. My wife tells me I drive like an old man...lol
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This is about illegal search of a serial # on a firearm nothing more nothing less. 90% of the time you know if you are getting pulled over and like I said putting your firearm on the dash would no way even be noticed or I would leave it between the seat where it is also clearly visible. In 20+ years of carrying I have never had an issue with Leo. I also know that my pistol is not stolen but what would happen if the Leo transposed # and it came back stolen. I was trying to get it out that we as law abiding gun owners need to stick together and ensure that our firearms rights are respected by Leo in Nebraska if we don't they will simple be able to stop us because they want to and we just through away our 4th amendment rights.
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**This is just my opinion. I don't think there was any reason to run the serial number on your gun. I am not a lawyer, or an officer; not by any means.
I thought that there has to be probable cause...If you were not suspected of any crime - there was no cause to run the serial number.
The issue was the license plate - not your gun.
That said, to me, this was a violation of your privacy.
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**This is just my opinion. I don't think there was any reason to run the serial number on your gun. I am not a lawyer, or an officer; not by any means.
I thought that there has to be probable cause...If you were not suspected of any crime - there was no cause to run the serial number.
The issue was the license plate - not your gun.
That said, to me, this was a violation of your privacy.
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Thank you it seems you are one of the few that grasp the nature of this situation. Again I say we as Nebraska fire arms owners need to stick together not tear each other down and say well if you don't have anything to hide what's the big deal.
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taking possession of weapon, search on serial number, RRS 29-829. Offense, operating motor vehicle without front license plate RRS 60-3,100.
Thinking about this again, and taking a look at what you cited, I don't see anything there about running the serial number on the gun. Temporarily confiscating, it, yes (that's common and well-documented by law) but running a serial number check---don't see it.
On further thought---while the police officer can indeed take the weapon (for the officer's safety) I think that I actually agree that running a search on the weapon itself isn't actually covered by the law. Whether or not I think it is a big deal doesn't change the fact that inspecting the firearm and running information on it is NOT covered in this situation.
The person was not held on RAS, there was no probable cause, the person was OCing legally. As such, the officer may hold the weapon for safety until the contact is finished. However, I don't think I've ever seen any justification for keeping the firearm, inspecting it (you have to, to read the serial number) and running a check on that specific firearm.
Anyone know any legal justification for this?
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I know I shouldn't but:
29-829 the pertinent section: "If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime, he may take and keep it until the completion of questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person. For purposes of this section, peace officer shall include credentialed conservation officers of the Game and Parks Commission."
What I have been told by LEOs, the lawfully possessed is where they are gong to run the 10-29 (NCIC) information. This is one way that they prove it is lawfully possessed, and that it wasn't stolen or reported lost or missing. They will also run a 10-39 (triple I) info on the driver to see if there are any restrictions, especially in Omaha and Lincoln where city ordinances are stricter than statewide.
Now I will let the matter go.
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IANAL, but I would consider the LEO running the serial number of your pistol to be in a grey area. I think it is an illegal search under the 4th amendment, but there could be an argument made that the serial number of the firearm was in "plain view" (depending on its location, of course--a s&w revolver with stocks over the butt would preclude this) and would thereby be fair game for a check through the database.
As established by RRS 29-829, a LEO can take possession of a firearm during questioning, the line, I think, is whether or not reading the serial number constitutes an additional search. In the case of Arizona v. Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Hicks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Hicks)), LEOs entered an apartment after a shooting and saw expensive stereo equipment. One of the officers moved the stereo equipment to find the serial number and record it. The stereo was stolen, but the evidence was thrown out because it was an illegal search. The officer's entry into the apartment was lawful given the emergency presented by the shooting, but the Supreme Court ruled that moving the stereo equipment to find the serial number was an additional and illegal search as there was no warrant and the search of the stereo was unrelated to the reason for which the police were present.
There is a thread on another forum on which a poster suggested placing black tape over the serial number so that it would no longer be in plain view. He went so far as to contact the BATF to make sure that placing black tape over the serial number wouldn't be considered defacing, removing or altering the serial number, which would be in violation of federal law. The BATF responded that black tape over the serial number would not be a violation of federal law. http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/148688-placing-black-tape-over-serial-number-federal-violation-print.html (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/general-firearm-discussion/148688-placing-black-tape-over-serial-number-federal-violation-print.html)
Ultimately, i think the question is whether or not the serial number being in plain view constitutes an additional search or not. I guess you could place black tape over the serial, and if it is removed, try to be a test case?
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To quote Sidearm1:
" 'I know I shouldn't but:
29-829 the pertinent section: 'If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime, he may take and keep it until the completion of questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person. For purposes of this section, peace officer shall include credentialed conservation officers of the Game and Parks Commission.' "
This is a good point that Sidearm1 brings up. Let me refer to this specific section:
If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime...
He was pulled over for a license plate issue = traffic infraction.
Open carry = legal in the state of NE (not legal in certain cities in NE)
There was no crime - no crime had taken place.
My belief is that the LEO had no cause/right/reason to run the serial number.
Again, I think is a valid point that Sidearm1 brings up. I am not a lawyer but I am just reading it for what I see.
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Anyone have any LEO contacts? I'm sure the procedures differ between jurisdictions, but I'd be curious to see if any Police departments and Sheriffs have any published guidelines, procedures, or specific training on an issue like this.
That's not to say the procedures would be constitutionally sound, but it makes me wonder if the guy was acting as he was trained or working under his own initiative.
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I think the guy was just being big bad Barney fife. I did call the state patrol head quarters and complain but I'm sure that got filed in the trash. We do however learn from these experiences and begin to flex our constitutional rights. I'm just saying more of us need to do it so Leo don't even give that firearm on the dash a second thought, I know the game wardens that have checked me for fishing license have never asked about my firearm while fishing in July. That's the way it should be!
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You have committed no crime by open carrying in your vehicle and contrary to the "reasonable suspicion or probable cause" comment owning/possessing a firearm is NOT RS or PC! Therefore no he should not have ran the serial number but makes me wonder exactly how you worded the custody of your firearm to him?Yes, some depts have a database that they record all contacted serial numbers and attach to each individual's log. Black tape over serial number is legal and not PC RS.
A police officer will do any and all things with or without your help to make an arrest and generate revenue.
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Has anyone thought of placing the unloaded gun in a locking bank bag? That does a couple things. It gives control over the handgun to the officer, without giving up control of the handgun from the owner. I believe the main emphasis of the CHP statutes where an officer or EMT personnel may take possession of your firearm, is for public safety. The public is perfectly safe while your gun is locked away in this type of bag.
http://www.amazon.com/MMF-Industries-Security-Valuables-233110808/dp/B001C8HER6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368826695&sr=8-3&keywords=Locking+bank+bag (http://www.amazon.com/MMF-Industries-Security-Valuables-233110808/dp/B001C8HER6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1368826695&sr=8-3&keywords=Locking+bank+bag)
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Interesting to say the least. I dont see why the firearm would have to be unloaded though. If they ask for it, slip it in the bag and snap the ready and waiting lock into place and hand it over. Nothing wrong with that.
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Has anyone thought of placing the unloaded gun in a locking bank bag?
Lacking knowledge on this: Appears the firearm just became "concealed" (possibly without permit?). Also seems suspious to mask a firearm this way when a LEO is present.
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One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of??????
The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.
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One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of??????
The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.
Part of it is seeing LEO reaction to firearms throughout youtube etc...
Part of it is just attempting to avoid having to deal with the situation...
I personally don't ever take the weapon out of the holster unless storing in seat lock box or some very unusual circumstance (see some of the reloading clinic stuff). And when around LEO I'm just aware of body language and hand positioning to avoid coming off as threatening or similar. The few times I've had official contact with LEO have all gone smoothly. A polite and friendly attitude with a touch of respect goes a long way ;)
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Lacking knowledge on this: Appears the firearm just became "concealed" (possibly without permit?). Also seems suspious to mask a firearm this way when a LEO is present.
This was in response to folks not wanting their gun serial number relinquished. I would think this would set off less red flags than placing tape over serial numbers.
You would have to have a CHP, or no access to a key for the bag. A pocket knife in your pocket, would be access to the bag, so I would not suggest doing this without a CHP, and your second approved photo ID.
I could care less about having Gov know my gun serial number. I fear someone not checked out with my handgun, unloading it. What if he Negligent Discharges my gun, and puts a round in his leg, arm, hand or right between the eyes. His brethren rolling up to that stop, are not going to swarm friendly.
If someone were to try the bank bag idea, Bag the gun before he walks up, tell the puzzled LEO, as you hand him the locked bag, you are concerned with his safety, and you will not allow him to handle your gun unless he wants to meet at the gun range on his day off, and you can check him out on it. This will work best if you show him your NRA Chief Range Safety Officer ID.
I do not want to be the first one to try it, but it would make for an interesting forum thread. I will seek out a LEO friend, Chief Of Police, retired, and ask him what he thinks of the idea.
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One thing I see on this forum is a huge amount of people that are scared to pass gas in front of a leo. And that ladies and gentleman is what scares me the most about our modern society! I men come on, any given day you see a patrol car driven 5mph under the posted speed limit and the 20 cars driving slower than him for fear of??????
The best thing you can do is educate your mind and surely your ass will follow it free and clear from any self imposed handcuffing.
I agree on the you tube comment. Some of those cops are wound up like cheap watches.
The ones I know, and I am friends with several, are good people. Even the ones with sidelines we could not do, are friendly.
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If someone were to try the bank bag idea, Bag the gun before he walks up, tell the puzzled LEO, as you hand him the locked bag, you are concerned with his safety, and you will not allow him to handle your gun unless he wants to meet at the gun range on his day off, and you can check him out on it. This will work best if you show him your NRA Chief Range Safety Officer ID.
You have got to be kidding.
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There was a time that I wouldn't have had a problem allowing law enforcement to know the serial numbers of my firearms. I wouldn't have given it a second thought. I wouldn't have cared if local law enforcement knew what guns I owned. Sadly that time is gone.
With the current political atmosphere I will fight tooth and nail to keep anyone from knowing what firearms I own. The only people that have a right to know are me and my kids who will someday own them.
I have no idea what I would have done in the OP's circumstances and I hope I never have to find out. After the fact I believe I would talk with my local state representative and perhaps a lawyer to see if I had any options.