NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: JimP on July 21, 2009, 11:29:22 PM
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..... at the handgun display case. There were a couple of ladies looking at J-frame air weight .357s the salseslady was showing them..... I could not help thinking that there could not be a worse carry gun for an inexperienced shooter with wrists more like Olive Oyl than Popeye. I ran into them a few minutes later in an aisle and said I had seen them looking at carry guns and there were a couple of websites that might help them make a choice. I mentioned ccwne, NFOA, and Cornered Cat., telling them that there were knoledgable people, including some instructors at theose sites. They thanked me, saying they did not know much about guns, other than they "wanted to get one before they could not buy one." They wrote down the sites ..... I hope they come by and learn something.
On the way home I was thinking: What would it take to get Cabela's, or other gun dealers to let customers know about these sites?
They cost nothing, and contain a wealth of information. What would be the downside?
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What is a good carry gun for the inexperienced?
The .357 Magnum is way to much for the new shooter no matter what the frame.
The J-Frame style revolver in .38 Special is probably the most sold and easiest to operate and clean.
I own a Taurus CIA in .38 Special +P and the new Ruger LCR in .38 Special +P.
But I started shooting with a .22Lr Rifle.
It all comes back to the need of proper experienced training.
Below link from
by Massad Ayoob
Handguns that sell to women
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_3_49/ai_114786628/
Wheelguns Are Self-Defense Sales Winners For Women
by Massad Ayoob
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_9_46/ai_79007779/?tag=rel.res4
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While they may be popular with SALESMEN because they sell well....... a .357 that weighs less than a double whopper with cheese is not going to be fun or easy to shoot. If the owner does not shoot it, they won't become proficient with it. Of what use is it if they can't use it proficiently?
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My wife carries one of the Taurus .357 lightweight's, she can't handle firing .357's through it but .38's for practice and .38+P's for selfdefense work great out of it. And on the occation that I carry it because of it's small size I can handle .357's out of it. These are not bad defence guns and offer a lot of flexibility in what ammo you shoot, as your abilities improve so can your ammo choices. But I would recomend getting some formal training and trying out some different guns before making a purchase, there is no "one size fits all" or even most in handguns.
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I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that the airweight, or even more so, the airlite .357 (like I have), are no fun to shoot with the magnum loads. I got one for the sole reason that it was about as small and light as you can get and still take down an attacker if need be. I practice using .38 specials, but even those aren't exactly fun. The point of this gun is that it's not for fun, it's for self-defense in a do-or-die situation. I can handle the kick for five rounds if my life depends on it. Sure, there are better guns for stopping power and accuracy. But, few if any have the concealability. And, in most self-defense situations, accuracy is the least of your worries. I will agree, though, that anyone with a weak grip or wrist better choose something else or be deadly accurate with their first shot. Otherwise, the gun is likely to be on the ground behind them somewhere when it comes time for a second shot.
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If you really want to see a gun that kicks, try the S&W 500 with a 4, or 2 inch barrel. I'll shoot my airlite any day compared to that. I actually think shooting the 500 contributed to the need for my wrist surgery a while back. That was my left wrist, and I'm right handed!
(http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos5134/3/49/18/45/74/2/274451849307_0_ALB.jpg)
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The issue here is that Cabelas is a retail store. Their gun salesmen are there to sell things.
I've worked in retail sales before. I learned very quickly not to argue with the customer and to sell them what they ask for, especially if it's something you have in stock. Yes, this can cause more harm than good, but explaining to your manager that the customer walked out because they wanted a 642 and you said that a 686 would be a better choice is not going to win you any points.
FWIW, a 642 or 638 J-frame with standard pressure .38 Special loads is not unbearable to shoot. It's not ideal for a beginner, but they're not "break your wrist ZOMG that hurts!" type of guns.
I think the best thing manufacturers and retailers could do is provide the URL for the NRA training website. Retailers could/should provide a list of local instructors too. They don't have to give a speech, just put it in the bag or box along with the receipt.
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Snubbies are nice n' small and easy to conceal BUT they are probably THE most difficult handgun to shoot accurately. How many people actually practice shooting a lot of DA shooting at more than arm's length distances?
Get a Glock 19.
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As a footnote to my earlier comments about my airlite .357, I wan't necessarily recommending it as a good, concealable, self-defense gun. I bought mine without researching it much, and I don't know that I would do it again now that I know what it is like to shoot. No doubt, my accuracy with it is the worst of any gun I shoot. Still, like I said, in most self-defense situations (probably less than seven yards), I could still hit my target (unless maybe it was a fast-moving, ferocious chihuahua). I generally only carry it now when dressed such that concealing anything else would be difficult.
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Snubbies are nice n' small and easy to conceal BUT they are probably THE most difficult handgun to shoot accurately. How many people actually practice shooting a lot of DA shooting at more than arm's length distances?
Get a Glock 19.
If I need my snubbie at more than an arms length, I probably don't need to shoot, my Taurus will put three rounds touching at 7 yards double action, first thing to do is get decent springs in them to clean up the action...
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Yay for Glock 19's. That is my primary carry gun.
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I had some serious reservations about glocks back in the day. Seemed they were the gun they show every time you see a news story about a gang shooting in Omaha. As a fairly "redneck" guy my first handgun was a ruger p95dc. I love it. But when I was looking at getting into IPSC. (still need to get up there to shoot a competition but work and classes seem to deny that at every turn.) I actually bought a Glock 17. I really like it. It is now my primary sidearm. Mostly just for the fact that the trigger pull never changes.
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Mostly just for the fact that the trigger pull never changes.
Don't shoot a 1911...... you'll have to buy one.
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I have shot several..... And have a Cz-52 which for those of you that don't know is an old CZ pistol designed in... wait for it..... 1952. Single action, Single stack. Almost as easy to clean as a glock, and the absolutely most awesome muzzle flash you will ever see. Shoots the 7.62x25 tokarev which is sometimes a pain to find (and also pretty pricey). But sweet gun.
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I think a Glock 9mm (Whether full size or compact) or a Springfield XD 9mm is a great first pistol.
I went with a .45 because I love 1911's too much... I'm a fan boy, what can I say...
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I have a Springfield XD 40 and I love the thing.
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I shot my cousin's 9mm Glock that was his police issue sidearm in Las Vegas years ago... it was very accurate for a pistol and I loved the feel of it.
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If the owner does not shoot it, they won't become proficient with it. Of what use is it if they can't use it proficiently?
Dry practice, grasshopper, dry practice. Then, you can visit the range to simply verify your practice without spending a fortune on ammo! This leads to sight picture/point shooting practice, trigger control practice and accuracy increases all while NOT instilling the flinch factor in new shooters while saving them money!
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If the owner does not shoot it, they won't become proficient with it. Of what use is it if they can't use it proficiently?
Dry practice, grasshopper, dry practice. Then, you can visit the range to simply verify your practice without spending a fortune on ammo! This leads to sight picture/point shooting practice, trigger control practice and accuracy increases all while NOT instilling the flinch factor in new shooters while saving them money!
It would take one hell of lot of dryfire practice to condition Olive Oyl's wrists to the kind of recoil she's going to get out of an Airweight .357 ..... I'm going to go out an a limb and make the bold statement that even if a very determined Ms. Oyl superglued a pair of Airweights to her palms and went around clickclickclickclickclickclick18hoursaday6daysaweek, carpal tunnel will set in long before she can effectively handle that gun (put 2 rounds DA COM at 7 yards in 2 seconds) .... dry fire is great, but it does not help a whole lot as far as dealing w/ recoil.
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... unless maybe you don't care about the gun much and have a buddy smack the muzzle with a 3 pound ball peen hammer every time time the gun goes "click" ;) .
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Most ladies don't have the strength to properly pull the slide on auto hand guns.
Then there all the variables to remember with different guns (decocker, safety, etc..,)
The revolver is the simple to use, light weight & compact gun to put in the purse.
I got my wife one of these, The ported barrel helps with the kick.
The double action trigger is hard to shoot well, but at get away from me distances it sure beats a shoe.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=168551973
Then I got her a Vanguard trigger cover to help her feel comfortable carrying it in her purse or were ever.
& then the Barami hip grip.
http://www.baramihipgrip.com/
http://hiddendefense.blogspot.com/2008/01/hip-gripmexican-carry-trigger-holster.html
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Most ladies don't have the strength to properly pull the slide on auto hand guns.
Mizzly: I will respectfully disagree with this very sexist statement. I am a female, and I shoot with several females, and all of us have the strength to pull the slide. I shoot Springfield XD's, some of my friends shoot Glock 19s, 34s, etc.; Please don't lump "all women" into this very inaccurate statement.
I was once in a Scheel's store looking for a handgun for myself and the salesman had the audacity to tell me that "all women should shoot .22's as they aren't strong enough for anything bigger." I went to the manager and let them know that I will be taking my business elsewhere. I shoot 9mm just fine, I even shoot .45 without problems.
Oh, and I carry a PF-9, it has a bit of a kick, but I can hit a man shaped target 7 of 7 shots at 10-15 feet without problems!
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My wife didn't really care for that statement either. She and my daughter are both small and can handle everything up to .44 mag without any problem, even DA.
Maybe that's why I'm no good at doing dishes and laundry, I'm just too strong.
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Most ladies don't have the strength to properly pull the slide on auto hand guns.
Most men don't properly pull the rack the slide, once shown how to properly operate the slide almost anyone can, my daugter could on my 1911 and any other semi auto I put in front of her a 10. Now the recoil at 10 she was handling 22's and .380's without a problem, but she could not take the recoil of a .38 revolver.
http://corneredcat.com/RunGun/rack.aspx
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"Then there all the variables to remember with different guns (decocker, safety, etc..,)"
Too complicated with 3 to 5 (trigger, safety or safeties, maybe a hammer, and a slide release)? Better not let her drive, as an automobile has FAR more confusing doodads to futz with ...... sheesh!
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OK I was not trying to stir up a hornets nest here.
The very beginning of this thread stated & I quote
"I could not help thinking that there could not be a worse carry gun for an inexperienced shooter with wrists more like Olive Oyl than Popeye"
So I thought we were talking about the Olive Oyl crowd not the Popeye crowd.
dcjulie said " Please don't lump "all women" into this very inaccurate statement"
Besides I said "Most ladies" Not all ladies
If you went to the mall & grabbed the next 100 ladies through the door A lot of them would not be able to get the ammo from the mag to the pipe on a oh lets say a Walther PPK on the first try. 51 of 100 would would qualify as "MOST". Perhaps I should have said "A LOT of ladies"
So I would like to apologies for saying most when I should have said a lot.
JimP said "Too complicated with 3 to 5 (trigger, safety or safeties, maybe a hammer, and a slide release)? Better not let her drive, as an automobile has FAR more confusing doodads to futz with ...... sheesh!
Once again this thread started with the comment about an "inexperienced shooter"
You all have taken this thread about revolvers not being a good choice for the lady's & turned it into a sexist thing. You should be ashamed of your selves
I was just trying to put my 2 cents worth in & defend the revolver a little bit.
I got the revolver for my wife In the off chance if she would ever need it that she might not forget the safety or something like that when every second counts. She is not as into this whole gun thing as I am, so she doesn't practice as much as I would like her to.
With that said I have managed to get her to get her permit & carry more often than not. & this is the set up that I put together That got her to carry. So I feel like I'm winning in that regard
If any guys have wives or girlfriends that can NOT work a slide on an auto chime in here.
Or maybe I know the only 4 ladies in North east Nebraska who can not.
Anyway I don't think I am sexist at all & I don't think revolvers are bad.
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My apologies for reading "all" instead of "most", however, I would still have to disagree. I don't think I should be chastized, nor am I "ashamed of myself" for stating that women certainly can and do shoot semi-autos without difficulty. Yes, a revolver is an easier firearm to shoot due to the simplicity of the gun, and I have one that I enjoy shooting. I use that one as a carry gun if I have to carry in my purse. I figure I can reach in, and shoot thru the purse without problems if need be and there is no slide to get caught on anything.
However, I rather carry a semi-auto on my person when I can. With some practice, I can see any woman be able to shoot a semi-auto. We even have junior shooters at our range that do just fine. Some of those kids have "Olive Oyl" wrists. The trick is technique, not always brawn.
I would also inform any female shooter who is intimidated by the semi-auto to look towards a Springfield XD or a Glock. Neither have "variables" described above. You put a round in the chamber, get a good grip (for the grip safety on the XD), point it at your target, and gently squeeze the trigger. There are no other external safeties to mess with. Having said that, I did start shooting with a gun with an external safety, it really wasn't an issue for me either. Just another step to do prior to BANG!
I am not trying to fuel the fire, but I do get frustrated and upset when I hear men talking about generalizations of female shooters. I have encountered the situation too many times of the husband/boyfriend telling the wife/girlfriend that she is too weak, the gun has too many parts, etc for her to shoot the semi-autos or larger guns. This does not instill confidence in the female.
When I (and my husband) have female shooters who want to learn to shoot, we take a variety of guns and calibers with us to the range and have them try many different ones. If she has never fired a gun before, we will start with a .22 so that she gets used to the thought of firing a gun prior to shooting anything larger. (Incidentally, we do this with male shooters too). Usually it only takes a magazine or two before she decides to try a "real gun" :). We then have her grip several different models of 9's to see what fits her hand the best. When she finds one that is comfortable, we tell her about the gun, give her a few rounds, and help her with her shooting. I have yet to encounter a female that can not handle a 9mm semi-auto. Even my friend's 11 year old petite daughter shot a 9mm Glock without problems. I truly believe that it is all in the preparation, confidence, and education.
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If Anybody Wants to Take a Look.......
They'll perhaps notice that Wimmen come in a Variety of SIZES.
From Itty Bitty Teeny Wimmen with [perhaps] Small Hands, to
Wimmen at the Other End of the Size Spectrum [Check out WalMart Wimmen], perhaps w/LARGE Hands.
Now, it also happens that Semi-Automatic Pistols come in ALL SIZES.
From Itty Bitty Teeny Taurus PT-22s loaded w/Stingers, to
Ruger .380 LCPs [Little Cute Pistols], to
Rohrbaugh 9mm, all the way up through
The Whole Range of Glocks, CZs, XDs, etc., etc., to
Big Boomer Desert Eagles, Casulls, etc.
So it's reasonable that CCW Wimmen are not restricted to One-Size J-Frame wheelguns.
And Watch Out when they reach into their purses!!!! [Shoot Thru the Purse!! That one goes into my CCW classes.]
You Go, DC Julie!!!
sfg
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thanks.
I figure if there is a reason for me to NEED to shoot someone, there is NOTHING in my purse worth my life - as that could be at risk if I need an extra 10-30 seconds to get the gun out of the holster in my purse. I would clarify, however, that I have a carry purse, not just a purse that the gun hangs out in. There are some great carry purses with a separate compartment that holds ONLY the gun. There is a holster attached inside this compartment. This provides coverage for the trigger guard, and also you know which direction the gun is pointing as long as you put it in there the same way each time and carry the purse the same way, each time. Will it be fast? ... NOPE, but I'd rather be slow than dead. :)
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I just purchased a Walther PK-380 with the intent of getting my wife interested in shooting, and maybe go so far as to get her CCW. She has shot my guns before and is pretty good, but absolutely did not like my S&W 686. She is not a small woman, but it was a bit much for the beginner.
I got the Walther because it is not so small it disappears in my hands like many .380?s, and it?s just about the right size for her. And .380 while not a monster ?rip the meat off the bones? caliber like the .45ACP, it has respectable stopping power for many occasions. Put a nice JHP in it and after 7 rounds most criminals will stop struggling.
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Most ladies don't have the strength to properly pull the slide on auto hand guns.
My wife has no problems shooting My Taurus PT 1911. I realize you said most, but non the less, she's a rather slight lady that shoots exceedingly well for a novice and had no trouble with the slide with only moderate practice :)