NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: Mali on January 07, 2018, 12:13:26 PM
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Yesterday I attended the monthly NFOA breakfast gathering (which, if you have never been there, is a great chance to meet others in the area and talk so many things, not just firearms) and had a great discussion with Greybeard regarding carrying with a round in the chamber and carrying without a round in the chamber. We both agreed that we would rather carry loaded since it means we get rounds on target faster, but when I saw this video I had to the additional evidence.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL0g0ON2aP8
I would never speak ill of those who do not carry with one in the chamber as carrying is a personal choice but I would point to the evidence that carrying with one in the chamber makes a difference.
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I struggled with that very question for a while before getting the CHP, now it's a foregone conclusion. No reason not to, I've found those who choose not to carry with a chambered round are fairly new to the game. Although, your mileage may vary.
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I struggled with that very question for a while before getting the CHP, now it's a foregone conclusion. No reason not to, I've found those who choose not to carry with a chambered round are fairly new to the game. Although, your mileage may vary.
Les, I think you have hit the nail on the head. So many of those who will argue with me about carrying fully loaded are usually newer to the carry life. Generally, after we talk about it a while it really comes down to them not being comfortable with the way they carry or draw/holster and are concerned about putting one into their leg/butt cheek/privates. I can respect that and will always say... Practice more, dryfire is your friend.
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Any discussion on this topic is always useful. Even though it will never "resolve" the issue.
I ED-carried empty chamber in a semi-auto for years. Was then able to relax while dining out with my Luvly Wife; the handgun muzzle would be sometimes pointed in her general direction as I shifted body position. No way that a round could ever fire.
A bit of carpal tunnel syndrome has made racking the slide more problematic. So I shifted carry guns to an LCR .327FedMag 6-rd revolver. Pull-point-shoot.
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Regarding the above demo video: Always interesting to watch another instructor work his magic. His setup nicely illustrated the differences in the two carry methods.
If that target were a real-world perp with a knife, seems the sensible thing would be for the shooter to be moving while drawing in order to maintain a spatial separation. (You know: Run Like Hell.) Plus it would serve the Nebraska Duty to Retreat statute.
FWIW,
sfg
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if some one is going to car jack you at a stop sign , or while getting in your car in a store parking lot ,or rob you walking down a sidewalk .. their not going to start talking **** or show you their gun from 21 feet away lol .. more like 1-7 feet and good luck drawing a gun on some one that all rdy has a gun out .... unless they are robbing you with a empty gun your going to be shot (or shot at) first... if they do the shirt lift to show you their gun tucked in their waist while asking for your wallet etc.. that's another thing .. you may have time then.
but i do agree! it takes more time with an empty chamber
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Endless (and Interesting) Topic with Many Endless Branches.
Winter Time:
Bundled up in a Big, Fluffy Zipped-up Winter Coat,
All Seat-belted in..
Howya gonna draw from IWB...?? (round chambered or not.....)
And on and on.
Lots to think about (and practice) after CHP comes in the mail.
sfg
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I think his draw was noticeably slower in the unchambered draw. Maybe not the 2 secs ...but slower than the chambered draw.
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One of my first posts (maybe my very first post!) on this very forum over 10 years ago now.... had me grappling with this very thing ..... I've gotten over the fear ..... listened to more experience people and learned ..... still carry a 1911 ...but with one in the pipe the pipe, Cocked and Locked, the way John Moses Browning intended....
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If you chose to carry without a round in the chamber, adjust the 21 foot rule to the 21 yard rule.
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Carrying without a round in the chamber is like taking a shower wearing a rain coat. Empty chamber? The last sound you hear will be the racking of your slide.
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I've been carrying with a round chambered since day one. But I have to admit that some carry methods did make me more nervous about it than others. It kind of depends on what's in front of the muzzle. But as long as the trigger is covered by the holster and I follow established safety rules I'm not nervous with a round in the chamber even when the muzzle is pointed at my wee wee.
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carrying without a round in the chamber is like....
driving a car and thinking you can put on your seat belt before a wreck.
cooking and thinking you can run to walmart and buy a fire extinguisher when you need one.
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I ED-carried empty chamber in a semi-auto for years.
Men of a Certain Age need to be careful of the acronyms. It took me a minute or so to figure out that ED stands for “Every Day”. :laugh:
How’s that .327 LCR? All it’s cracked up to be?
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...ED stands for “Every Day”.
OTOH, It could be sorta like "LIMP-Wristing." Just Sayin'.............
.327Federal Magnum/LCR:
Love the gun. As stated above, I had some slide-racking issues. Looked for solutions, as usual
Heard of the .327FM. Hard to find. Really hard to find at a decent price. Lots of them listed at $589. Being a Terminal Tightwad, I pounced on one around $400. (You won't ever want to sell a gun to me.)
Here's What I Like:
>LCR Platform. Perfect pocket carry. No hammer. No edges. Great feel. Slips slickly in and out of pocket. Very compact.
>6 rounds, not 5.
>2" barrel surprisingly accurate.
>Hogue Tamer grips fit my hands; absorb recoil.
>Can load lite .32S&W Long cases w/DEWCs, shoot practice all day. EZ on hand and wrist. At least three good factory SD loads are available.
In the past I've carried:
9mm Kahr PM9
.357SIG Glock 33
.22MAG Ruger LCR (No Commentary Allowed Here)
.22LR Beretta 21A (Shaddup!!!)
And will probably be carrying the .327FedMag for a while.
FWIW
sfg
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The only time I do not carry with 1 in the pipe is when armed with a double barrel shotgun, or 2 or 4 barreled derringer.
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..... still carry a 1911 ...but with one in the pipe the pipe, Cocked and Locked, the way John Moses Browning intended....
I'm more comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911 than with a striker fired gun whose only safety is something inside the trigger. When I draw a 1911, the thumb safety doesn't come off until the muzzle is pointed down range and it goes back on before I reholster.
I follow Grant Cunningham's blog. Recently, I e-mailed him to ask about front pocket carry. Specifically, muzzling everyone who walks in front of me while I'm seated. His reply was that, as long as the trigger is protected, the gun is safe and I needn't worry. He added that, in public, you will end up muzzling someone no matter how you carry. At matches, I carry OWB at 3 o'clock with a 15° cant. During one match, I cautioned the timer to stand behind my left ear instead of my right. If I carried that way in public, my muzzle would be pointed at the person behind me when I climbed stairs.
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I follow Grant Cunningham's blog. Recently, I e-mailed him to ask about front pocket carry. Specifically, muzzling everyone who walks in front of me while I'm seated. His reply was that, as long as the trigger is protected, the gun is safe and I needn't worry. He added that, in public, you will end up muzzling someone no matter how you carry. At matches, I carry OWB at 3 o'clock with a 15° cant. During one match, I cautioned the timer to stand behind my left ear instead of my right. If I carried that way in public, my muzzle would be pointed at the person behind me when I climbed stairs.
I think you’re misapplying the rules a little. First, they apply to handling the gun, not its orientation at every moment. If they did, the only solution would be to destroy every gun—even a gun in a safe in the basement is most likely going to point at someone the next floor up once in a while. But unless your gun is an absolute piece of trash, you can trust it to not discharge unless the trigger is actuated. Since one of the basic requirement of a holster is ensure the trigger can not be actuated, as long as you have a decent quality gun in a decent quality holster, you can treat it more or less like a gun in the safe, and not worry about its muzzle orientation until you’re handling it.
Second, the rules are deliberately redundant. No one can be accidentally hurt unless at least two of them are broken simultaneously. I’m not saying that means we should ignore the rules at any time, but that obsessing over any one is misguided. If you apply them all with deligence, and know when breaking one is acceptable (not to be taken lightly), you’ve got nothing to worry about.
I’m a little curious as to how tall you are, that a 15° cant comcerned you about muzzling a range officer standing behind you. Sure, billet splatter is possible, if your gun rides at, say, 40” from the ground and points 15° backward, that makes its POI during drawing and tejolsteribg (a valid concern—you’re handling, not just carrying holstered then) is just under 11” behind where it would impact if pointed straight down. It might break a match’s 180° rule, but I’ve got to wonder how close the timer is standing...
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I'm more comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911 than with a striker fired gun whose only safety is something inside the trigger.
Striker fired handguns like the Glock, Smith and Wesson MP, and Kahr's (to name a few) will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.
When the trigger is pulled the striker is pulled back and then released , just like firing a double action revolver. They also have a firing pin block that prevents the firing pin from being able to contact the primer unless the trigger is pulled.
With external safeties, like what is on the 1911, there is always the potential for the safety to be accidently disengaged for various reasons.
John K
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You can't fire a Taurus PT-22 without a round in the pipe, literally. It has a along trigger pull as well. No chance of it going off in your pocket.
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You can't fire a Taurus PT-22 without a round in the pipe, literally. It has a along trigger pull as well.
Once you try to hand-rack the slide on one of those little Mouse Guns (Taurus PT-22, Beretta 21-A),
then you realize why the gun has that Barrel Flipper Lever Thingie.
sfg
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Striker fired handguns like the Glock, Smith and Wesson MP, and Kahr's (to name a few) will not fire unless the trigger is pulled.
In the absence of another safety (e.g. thumb or grip), anything that pulls the trigger, not necessarily your finger, will cause them to fire. A holster that protects the trigger is sufficient but you need to be very careful while holstering.
With external safeties, like what is on the 1911, there is always the potential for the safety to be accidently disengaged for various reasons.
It can happen but a thumb safety provides an additional level of security. It takes two unrelated failures to cause a discharge. Consider Sig's problem with the P320 whose trigger had enough inertia to fire the gun when it was dropped. With an engaged thumb safety or a grip safety, the design error wouldn't have mattered.
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I always have one in the pipe ready to go.
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Once you try to hand-rack the slide on one of those little Mouse Guns (Taurus PT-22, Beretta 21-A),
then you realize why the gun has that Barrel Flipper Lever Thingie.
sfg
Yup. You need a piece of rubber to get a good purchase. Not convenient for carrying around. I carry a couple rounds in my watch pocket.
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My EDC is a Sig Sauer 45 caliber 1911. I carry it in condition 1 even though when I first started carrying I was concerned about the hammer being cocked. I still do, so I carry with the safety on. There's always a chance that clothing could get caught in the trigger and cause a discharge - maybe a fatal event. Because of that, I wonder what impact of having the safety "on"/engaged has in a SD situation. I'm sure that it would take more time to fire but how much more time versus having the safety off?
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If you're going to carry a 1911 with the hammer back, you'd better have the safety on.
Taking the safety off as you draw (or you can even wait till you're on target) is a simple process. The pistol is designed so your thumb is right where it needs to be to take the safety off. You don't have to be in a hurry to take it off, in fact you shouldn't be in a hurry.
Be safe.
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Ever since I got my CCP last year, I've carried with one in the chamber. Initially I was concerned about where the muzzle was pointed (since I often pocket carry), but I've learned to be comfortable with passive safeties of my gun (no thumb safety, but things like the trigger safety on my LC9s Pro and the striker bar on that and my P2000). Is there still a chance of AD? Yes, but I've learned not to let it constantly bother me (I still consider it, I just don't obsess over it).
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... Initially I was concerned about where the muzzle was pointed (since I often pocket carry) ...
Use a holster that protects the trigger.
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Use a holster that protects the trigger.
Oh, I do (I have one that sticks to the inside of my pocket), I was more concerned at the time that the gun would misfire on its own. I wasn't aware of the striker bars inside them, which prevents that unless the trigger is pulled.
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Waiting to chamber a round until you are in imminent danger is like waiting until the oh crap moment of a car wreck to put on your seatbelt because you practice putting on you seatbelt quickly. I prefer to carry ready to fight so that I may worry about other things during the oh crap moment.
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Always.
Your first shot may be the only one you will need.
Not getting off the first shot may mean you won't get off a shot at all.