NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Shooting Sports => Topic started by: bullit on November 03, 2014, 07:06:30 PM
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HQ announced today elimination of the "flat-footed" reload rule .....and all the USPSA shooters shouted with glee ......
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HQ announced today elimination of the "flat-footed" reload rule .....and all the USPSA shooters shouted with glee ......
HOLY CRAP!
People will die and there will be blood in the streets...BUUUT I might place a little better at the matches. ;D
Seriously though...I have been asking around if anyone knows why reloading on the move would be a bad thing in regards to self defense. I understand the shooting from cover, engaging the targets in tactical priority, not dropping rounds on the ground, etc., but if I am on the move and need a reload, I don't need it later. I need it NOW. I may not be shooting on the run, but when I stop, being ready to shoot is (IMHO) paramount.
Glad to see they came around to my way of thinking.
Fly
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Also possibly 2 new pistol divisions: compact pistol and laser/optic equipped pistol. But the elimination of the ESR division.
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Yes... I am not to keen on the two new divisions concept .... 1) The example of a Glock 19 for "compact pistol"? Really? I and a number others tend to shoot do just fine in SSP with that particular model. 2) Could the laser/optic equipped pistol be the slippery slope to the reason IDPA founders left IPSC? I understand the idea in theory but ......
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I like the laser concept. Makes a 442 much easier to hit with given the factory "sights."
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What the heck is a flat footed reload? Never heard that one before? Does that mean you can run and gun, drop loaded mags everywhere then?
Jeepers.... Next thing you know USPSA will want a Production class with Red Dot sights.
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Yes... I am not to keen on the two new divisions concept .... 1) The example of a Glock 19 for "compact pistol"? Really? I and a number others tend to shoot do just fine in SSP with that particular model. 2) Could the laser/optic equipped pistol be the slippery slope to the reason IDPA founders left IPSC? I understand the idea in theory but ......
Going to be harsh on IDPA for a moment...
IDPA places a significant amount of importance to the "social" aspects of shooting, and also significantly de-values how competition drives people to excellence. It also really likes to reward mediocrity (which, I'll note, USPSA does also, though not nearly as strongly).
Having a "compact" division will mean that all the folks who are in SSP (or whatever) shooting against the people using guns best suited for that division will now have a place to go where they won't be getting stomped quite as much.
That's phrased harshly, and yet....shooting an IDPA match with a stiff vest, a G34 in an OWB holster, and Tek-Lok-ed mag pouches is significantly easier than doing so with a G19 in an IWB under a t-shirt, with IWB mag pouches.
One of those is much more suited to actual concealed carry. However, if you want to win in IDPA, you won't use that method. And IDPA has a real problem with its continual insistence that it is actual Real Defensive Practice when 1) it obviously isn't in terms of tactics and techniques and 2) the people who win do so with gear that doesn't resemble their carry gear at all.
And IDPA really doesn't like to make shooters feel bad (in some ways, it reminds me of the push in education for self-esteem, instead of self-respect), so by creating a division so that people who shoot their "real carry guns" won't have to shoot against the best guns for a division choice, those people can now brag that they are shooting "real IDPA" (you can see this happening, can't you?) as opposed to the rest of "those people who should just go shoot USPSA if they want to be gamers." (You can see people saying that too, can't you?)
I realize that the above "rewarding mediocrity" statement is quite harsh, but there is a grain of truth in it. USPSA and IDPA both "class" people so that the people who actually win the divisions aren't the only ones who are recognized, so that people who aren't the winner can also feel like winners. (Occasionally in USPSA, that means that the 1st D-class shooter goes to the prize table and picks up a gun before the #2 in the division gets anything---IDPA doesn't have this since they don't have prize tables, but makes it MORE obvious that they are trying to make sure no one has hurt feelings by not even reporting score comparisons to anyone BUT people in your own class.)
Having classes is actually a smart thing to do---because both sports want to keep people interested, and having fun, and it is a GOOD idea to have performance/competence milestones for people to use as goals. Having classes, IMO, is a good idea. That doesn't change the fact that making as big of a deal for 1st Marksman as they do for 1st Expert is a way to reward people who just don't shoot as well. (Considering that those classes in both USPSA and IDPA are arbitrary in setting, though USPSA is a little less than in IDPA.)
Win your class? Feeling good about that makes perfect sense. (Though doesn't it REALLY mean that you should probably be in the next class up?) But treating 1st D almost the same as 1st A, or 1st MM similarly to 1 MA? That's really not what should happen. (Making a 1st category win similar in prestige to 1st overall? That's a problem that USPSA has also.)
What REALLY makes IDPA the group that rewards mediocrity is their concept of a "match bump." (Which, I'll note, I recently received, so yes, I'm commenting negatively on something that benefited me personally.) In IDPA at a major match, if there are at least 10 people in your class, the top person in that class automatically gets "bumped" to the next higher class.
But what if all of those people weren't any good? Should you actually be in that higher class?
Awhile back, someone (elsewhere) make a spreadsheet showing what would happen if you took 100 MM-ranked shooters of equal skill, and let them shoot major matches together.
I replicated that because I was curious about a couple of things.
Assumptions:
1) all shooters were completely equal in skill
2) all shooters were MM level in shooting
3) no shooter ever got better
In seven major matches (that's about 2 to 2.5 years for many IDPA shooters, that's all it took), they had their first Master completely due to match bumps. (Remember, no shooter ever got better---as such, no shooter EVER shot better than MM in a classifier match.)
Matter of fact, after 7 major matches, there were only 49 MMs left. There were 38 SS, 12 EX, and 1 MA.
None of them had to get any better at all, the match bumps did everything for them. In IDPA, it is automatic---and it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the people you are shooting against, either. (If you keep the simulation going, at 15 major matches you have more Expert-ranked shooters than you do Markman-ranked shooters, even though none of these shooters ever practiced or got better, or shot better on a classifier.)
That's the match bump system. For those want to increase their class quickly, match bumps are the way to go. (I'll note I've never shot an IDPA classifier sufficiently well to support the class I'm currently in...)
USPSA has something a LITTLE bit similar, but it isn't automatic---you have to win your class, shoot sufficiently into the next higher class, AND have it occur in a match where there are enough national-level GMs for HQ to actually consider it.
It doesn't happen much in USPSA.
As for the guns-with-optics-or-lasers situation---I'm thinking that 1) they are trying to make sure it isn't doesn't turn into IDPA open with their restrictions being slide-mounted optics only and the optic must be between the rear of the slide and the ejection port, 2) good luck with trying to stop the gamers because the point of competition is to compete and win, and therefore people will devote time, brains, and effort into giving themselves every advantage possible.
Rather the point, isn't it?
If IDPA didn't want to be a competition in which people were trying to win, then they shouldn't have added a scoring system. And since they DID add a scoring system, people will try to gain every advantage they can to win.
Gamers. :)
(Eliminating ESR amuses me, because while they say that hardly anyone shoots it, I'm thinking that it is because the people who DO shoot it are often USPSA shooters who just use their regular revolver rig, and since they aren't IDPA members they never go to a major match in that division. Dropping ESR will lose those shooters---but IDPA won't care because they aren't paying members. IMO.)
Don't get me wrong, folks---I enjoy shooting IDPA. And I enjoy shooting USPSA. That doesn't blind me to the various issues each shooting sport actually has.
IDPA has a real internal problem with the attitude between the IDPA shooters who insist that IDPA is the "real defensive carry sport" and the IDPA shooters who simply like the sport and win using the rules. (And yet later, hear other people say "He just won because he is a gamer. He wasn't being realistic in how he ran that stage with his gamer gear.")
I'll note: Locally, we don't seem to have this problem. People show up, people have a GOOD time on some nicely tricky stages, people make fun of their each other's mistakes and applaud each other's good runs, and then we clean up and go home. Local IDPA club is good stuff.
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I'm gonna run SO fast while I slam reloads this Saturday.
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++++++ 1 to everything jthapkido said...... And why I compete with my carry gear and rig i.e. IWB (okay cheat a little with a "modified G17 vice my daily carry G19 or 23). That being said, Naylor's goin down though on Saturday .... :)
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That being said, Naylor's goin down though on Saturday .... :)
As well he should, because those rule changes aren't in effect yet.
STILL STUCK WITH STANDING RELOADS, FOLKS! (At least until the new rulebook comes out in 2015.)
(Sean should still run the stage like a USPSA gamer. We need a new record for maximum number of procedural penalties on one stage!)
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As well he should, because those rule changes aren't in effect yet.
STILL STUCK WITH STANDING RELOADS, FOLKS! (At least until the new rulebook comes out in 2015.)
I'm gonna do it anyway! And shoot standing outside cover! (Only one cover penalty is allowed for a single shooting position according to the rulebook!)
LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH MY PENALTIES AND SPEED, S.O.!
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LET'S SEE IF YOU CAN KEEP UP WITH MY PENALTIES AND SPEED, S.O.!
I'll help count, SOs. :)
Just to be a good, helpful IDPA shooter.
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I'm gonna do it anyway! And shoot standing outside cover! (Only one cover penalty is allowed for a single shooting position according to the rulebook!)
Don't forget that you only get one penalty per no-shoot no matter how many times you hit it---and shoot-throughs count, so if you tag it once, just let it rip!
You should COMPLETELY shoot like this on Saturday, Sean.
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They might not let me come back, Thomas...
But if I catch the round while unloading and showing clear, they might be so impressed they forget about the penalties.
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They might not let me come back, Thomas...
But if I catch the round while unloading and showing clear, they might be so impressed they forget about the penalties.
Maybe if you catch it with your teeth. :)
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Sean I will go ahead and issue a "Failure To Do Right" at this time for both stages to save admin on our end..... The additional 40 secs (20 secs per stage) should do the trick.....
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Can I get my usual 29 procedurals written up now to save time too? I don't catch bullets or anything to make up for them. :(
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Going to be harsh on IDPA for a moment...
...each other's mistakes and applaud each other's good runs, and then we clean up and go home. Local IDPA club is good stuff.
Here's the deal. While I agree with much of what you are saying, you, Sean, myself, and others are OCD about improving. Should everyone in all aspects of life be a little more OCD about self improvement? IMHO, yes! You commented that IDPA & USPSA do this to keep people interested, but it has another benefit. Advancement of the sport which also equates to success of the organization. More shooters = more money = more stuff they can do to make the sport grow.
It is just human nature to aim low. When the Army lowered the PT standards to improve the number of recruits passing basic training, it worked for a while. UNTIL the recruits realigned their sights on the new, lower standards. Then the Army went right back to the same pass rate they had prior to the change in test standards. Generally people aim for mediocracy. I'm too obsessive myself, though my scores at matches wouldn't indicate I am. ;D
The other issue is that there are some people who will just NEVER advance beyond a certain classification. Not because of lack of effort, but because they just don't have the physical ability (bad knees, missing fingers, poor eyesight, etc.), limited physical coordination, or their mental abilities will hold them back. Mind you, I'm not saying they are challenged (well, maybe I am), but some people just don't have "It". Whether we are talking about being a competitive shooter, brain surgeon, pilot, etc. It just may not be their forte. So USPSA and IDPA can't exclude those people.
There is another group of people, and those are the shooters who really just don't give a $hit about the competition. They are there so they can improve their shooting abilities, but more importantly spend time with friends.
So the OCD side of me absolutely agrees, but there are a LOT of people who just don't think like you do, or just can't be competitive on a higher level.
Fly
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So the OCD side of me absolutely agrees, but there are a LOT of people who just don't think like you do, or just can't be competitive on a higher level.
There is a big difference between enjoying shooting competitions for shooting's sake (for whatever reason) and giving awards to everyone to make them all feel better.
For example, I shot Rimfire Rifle at the Zombie match instead of Production. I wasn't trying to win (well, okay, I was trying to beat Sean, but that's not the same thing), I was simply having a fun time. Even though I like to work on my skills, increase my abilities, and win if possible---sometimes I still just shoot for fun. (Heck, last year I shot Limited a couple of times for the heck of it. I'm shooting Rimfire for the upcoming SC match. I'm there to have fun!)
...but, just like there has been a push to give participation medals to everyone to make them feel good in school, IDPA also does something similar in their matches.
"Sanctioned matches must give trophies or plaques for the Division Champions as well as 1st, 2nd and 3rd placements."
...Tier 2 matches occasionally only have one or two people in a class in a particular division, and yet they are STILL giving trophies in that class. You can be the only person in your class in a Tier 2 match, and you will still get a trophy. Matter of fact, if you have three people in a class, all three of them will get trophies---it is required.
And in addition to 1st through 3rd place being required for each class in each division at a sanctioned match, there is also the division champion trophy, PLUS the large list of category trophies. Even better, in addition to the 10 different category trophies that sanctioned matches are required to give:
"Clubs are encouraged to come up with other relevant subcategories."
...so that even more people can be given trophies.
I need to make a team of IDPA shooters: One senior female who works in a gun shop who is military, one older-than-senior male that works for a print newspaper but is also a reserve LEO, one junior from another country who is incredibly accurate---and all them in ESR MM, SS, and EX. (Because that is the division that is most empty. As such, it is unlikely that there will be more than three people in each of those classes in that division.)
We could get 13 trophies just with those three people. (One of 1st-3rd in their class, High Lady, High Senior, High Distinguished Senior, High Law Enforcement, High Military, High Industry, High Press, High International, High Junior, and Most Accurate.
At a certain major match I saw recently, the guy who won the Most Accurate award indeed had the lowest number of points down. He also had a time that was just about twice what everyone else's was. I'm glad he's happy with his trophy, but I'm not sure if rewarding bullseye shooting is what IDPA is supposed to be about.
I think that having classes within divisions (and in some cases, categories) are actually good things. But there is a point where "giving people goals and rewarding people other than the guys who always win" turns into "here's your participation ribbon for the event."
That's separate from whether or not everyone is driven to improve to the same extent.
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I think we need to get back to the important stuff here, guys.
With an FTDR on both stages, how fast and accurate would I need to be to still win?
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I think we need to get back to the important stuff here, guys.
With an FTDR on both stages, how fast and accurate would I need to be to still win?
I'm thinking that with a 40-second total penalty time----relativistic speeds might be necessary. :o
...though it does depend on how long the stage is. And how many other penalties you "acquire" along the way...
We all bringing trenchcoats to wear for concealment this time? :P
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Time to engage ludicrous speed!
... I'm going plaid!!.....
Think I could get a plaid trench coat?
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Epic Fail Sean ..... :p
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Story of my life.
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I think that having classes within divisions (and in some cases, categories) are actually good things. But there is a point where "giving people goals and rewarding people other than the guys who always win" turns into "here's your participation ribbon for the event."
That's separate from whether or not everyone is driven to improve to the same extent.
My brother's step-daughters asked him if he wanted to join them when they "ran" in the Lincoln half marathon. He declined because he didn't feel that he had time to train and run it in a time that he would be proud of. His step-daughters continued with their plans, but barely did any training of significance. When the day of the race came, they participated. I say "participated" because they did not run the entire course. They alternated between running and walking. The funny thing is that when they would see the family on the side of the course, they would start running to make it look like they were running the entire time. One sister drove the other crazy because she complained the whole time.
Neither of them won any physical trophy or ribbon, but what they did get was the bragging rights that they "ran" the Lincoln half marathon. My brother and I spoke about this and neither of us can understand what pride you could have unless you actually ran the race and met a reasonable goal. Not necessarily win, but a respectable performance. Let alone telling people with confidence that you "ran the Lincoln half marathon".
If the Navy Seal training program was made into a sport, how many people would participate? There are no smiley faces on your folder, or ribbons for almost becoming a Seal. This means only the extremely devoted and committed will participate, and because of this the sport would not proliferate.
I wish that we had a society where people did not settle for mediocre or good enough. For myself, I don't look at how well I do at local (Lincoln) matches. My sights are set higher. It may never happen for me, but that is where I would want to be.
I understand what you are saying. However, this is where our world is going, and organizations like USPSA know it is a useful tool in furthering the sport.
Fly
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And IDPA really doesn't like to make shooters feel bad (in some ways, it reminds me of the push in education for self-esteem, instead of self-respect), so by creating a division so that people who shoot their "real carry guns" won't have to shoot against the best guns for a division choice, those people can now brag that they are shooting "real IDPA" (you can see this happening, can't you?) as opposed to the rest of "those people who should just go shoot USPSA if they want to be gamers." (You can see people saying that too, can't you?)
Good lord. Here's a quote I just read about the IDPA match that several of us went down and shot in Kansas a couple of weeks ago:
"I take a disadvantage by shooting a G19 from under a hoody or T-shirt because that's what I carry...
...with ten stages running, with [sic] I went gamer holster, gun and vest and cut 2-3 seconds per stage I would have taken overall for the whole match."
Considering he would have had to cut four seconds from every single stage run he had, that seems kinda unlikely. Not anything directly against him (he is a good shooter, with lots of non-competition shooting experience, plus a lot of competition-shooting experience) but that statement is either strongly wishful thinking, or bragging for effect. (Literally, the match winner could have shot a quarter of the match again and still beaten his score.)
Oddly enough, his comment is both a combination of what I said about gear, AND a whine about how Real Shooters don't use gamer gear.
Anyway, I read that and had to comment about how there is already a section of people talking about the difference between IDPA shooters who are Real Shooters, and those who are gamers, based on their equipment choices for IDPA. Having a CCP division for those folks will mean that they won't have to compare themselves to those gamers anymore.
You'd think that for a game with results in which people are comparing themselves to others, we wouldn't have issues with people arguing that comparing themselves to others isn't valid.
[sigh]
One of the things I like about local matches here. Everyone applauds everyone, and everyone makes fun of everyone, and EVERYONE wants the other shooters to do their best.
Well, except for Sean. Man, that guy has an attitude problem.*
*Kidding!
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Sigh. With friends like these...