NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => General Ammunition Discussion => Topic started by: Les on May 13, 2015, 09:57:40 AM
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What if anything can be done with reloaded ammo that's no longer needed? I have an older retired friend that has approx 170 rounds of .270 win loaded with 56 gr of 4350 Dupont, 130 gr Hornady slug, CCI primer. Kinda shame to disassemble them. I realize they can't be sold just wondering what others have done.
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Why can't they be sold?
28-1239. Explosives control; exceptions to sections; enumerated.
In addition to the exceptions provided in sections 28-1213 to 28-1239, such sections shall not apply to:
(1) The use of explosive materials in medicines and medicinal agents in forms prescribed by the official United States Pharmacopoeia or the National Formulary;
(2) The sale, transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation of explosive materials for delivery to any agency of the United States or to any state or political subdivision thereof;
(3) Small arms ammunition and components thereof;
(4) The storage or possession of or dealing in black powder used for recreation purposes by a sportsperson;
(5) The storage or possession of or dealing in smokeless propellants, percussion caps, primers, and other components used by a sportsperson in the reloading of small arms ammunition;
(6) Bona fide war trophies capable of exploding and innocently found explosive materials possessed under circumstances negating an intent to use the same unlawfully, but the owner thereof shall surrender such items forthwith to any nationally certified hazardous device technician or military explosive ordnance expert upon demand by a law enforcement officer or agency or fire department; and
(7) The storage in minimum amounts necessary for lawful educational purposes of explosive materials to be used in the natural science laboratories of any state-accredited school system.
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you have to have a type 06 ffl. to sell reloaded ammo, and you have to pay a tax on making the ammo. not to mention a butt load of insurance,
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I do have a large liability policy but it doesn't cover reloaded ammo. Too bad I don't have a .270.
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I've broke reloads down that I have got in trade and sold or traded the components. Reloads that I could use I broke down and made what suits me for my needs. I reload for 270 but it is not my powder choice, so if it were me, I would break down and make them for my own particular rifle.
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you have to have a type 06 ffl. to sell reloaded ammo, and you have to pay a tax on making the ammo. not to mention a butt load of insurance,
More accurately, you have to have an 06 to load ammo FOR re-sale............
I am unaware of any legal reason why you cant sell the ammo............several pragmatic reasons, but no legal reasons...
How about listing it for trade as COMPONENTS only???
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I did think about selling as components but thought I'd get additional info from others here. I don't want a knock on the door from our shining boys in blue (Or suits) Another way to look at it is, if I didn't know an individual personally or an established business that reloads, I wouldn't buy them. Too many variables.
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I wasn't very clear in my previous answer.
There is NO license required to SELL ammo, either in Nebraska OR at the federal level, except for a re-sellers license ( which means you get to collect sales tax ).
An 06 FFL is required to manufacture ammunition for re-sale.
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forgot to even ask. what does he want for them, I guess I can pull them apart and reuse the stuff
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I'm not sure, I'll ask and let you know.
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I've done a write up on the other 2 ton gorilla ya need to be aware of when it comes to making ammo to sell: the DDTC.
It's somewhere on this forum, don't have a link off hand -- but it makes the FFL06 childs play.
If the FFL06 was all that was necessary for making and selling ammo, I would have done it a long time ago just to help friends during different shortages. The whole DDTC/ITAR bit makes it all unfeasible.
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I've done a write up on the other 2 ton gorilla ya need to be aware of when it comes to making ammo to sell: the DDTC.
It's somewhere on this forum, don't have a link off hand -- but it makes the FFL06 childs play.
Found it for you: http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.msg62130.html#msg62130 (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.msg62130.html#msg62130)
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I've done a write up on the other 2 ton gorilla ya need to be aware of when it comes to making ammo to sell: the DDTC.
It's somewhere on this forum, don't have a link off hand -- but it makes the FFL06 childs play.
If the FFL06 was all that was necessary for making and selling ammo, I would have done it a long time ago just to help friends during different shortages. The whole DDTC/ITAR bit makes it all unfeasible.
My research has show that if you want a 06 you might as well get a 07. Same money and a lot more options for what you can do ammo guns you can make it all.
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My research has show that if you want a 06 you might as well get a 07. Same money and a lot more options for what you can do ammo guns you can make it all.
Interesting, I wasn't aware of that, it makes perfect sense though.
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Found it for you: http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.msg62130.html#msg62130 (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,8797.msg62130.html#msg62130)
Thanks.
And yes, there are plenty of folks who have had run ins with the DDTC/ITAR stuff. Advertising on a website is prolly an easy way to attract unwanted attention.
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I had advertised them some time ago on a predominately firearm website and promptly got a call from a concerned citizen advising against said ad. I removed it. I appreciate all the comments here as I wasn't sure what was and wasn't legal.
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With that being said, what is the legality of reloading for people who want something but don't have the equipment?
For instance, suppose I had the brass, bullets, primers and powers to reload ammo (because I either did the research or talked to you to find out what I wanted) but not the equipment. Are there issues with either me coming to your place and us having a reload party on your equipment or your accepting the supplies from me and then returning the completed cartridges?
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With that being said, what is the legality of reloading for people who want something but don't have the equipment?
For instance, suppose I had the brass, bullets, primers and powers to reload ammo (because I either did the research or talked to you to find out what I wanted) but not the equipment. Are there issues with either me coming to your place and us having a reload party on your equipment or your accepting the supplies from me and then returning the completed cartridges?
I think you're tying into the "let someone else push the button to make a gun" ruling the ATF released this year in 2015-1 ?
There is no problem with letting someone else use your tools to make ammo as far as I know. Charging them to use your tools to make ammo - I dunno.
Accepting the supplies from someone and then returning to them loaded ammunition should technically be fine as well. There was no money (or 'in kind') traded hands etc. If they paid you to do it or some other kind of trade (maybe they gave you an extra 5% of materials you kept) - then there is probably some problems. I'm not sure how "reloading ammo as a service" works out for the DDTC/ITAR stuff, but you'd prolly want an FFL06 just in case (and maybe a class 7 ?).
Oh, and you still have culpability for the produced ammo. See also: if their goes boom and they try to blame the ammo... uh oh.
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I think you're tying into the "let someone else push the button to make a gun" ruling the ATF released this year in 2015-1 ?
There is no problem with letting someone else use your tools to make ammo as far as I know. Charging them to use your tools to make ammo - I dunno.
Accepting the supplies from someone and then returning to them loaded ammunition should technically be fine as well. There was no money (or 'in kind') traded hands etc. If they paid you to do it or some other kind of trade (maybe they gave you an extra 5% of materials you kept) - then there is probably some problems. I'm not sure how "reloading ammo as a service" works out for the DDTC/ITAR stuff, but you'd prolly want an FFL06 just in case (and maybe a class 7 ?).
Oh, and you still have culpability for the produced ammo. See also: if their goes boom and they try to blame the ammo... uh oh.
To some extent I think people are reading a bit to into this... and the worse thing is its so damn foggy you can't see your own damn hand when you touch your nose.
The hole using someone elses machines to make weapons is still really fuzzy in my opnion. The way I understand there letter is you can not walk into a machine shop hand them 25 dollars and press a button wait and have a finished firearm kicked out. But you can give the shop $25 dollars rent to use there machine for 2 hrs write your own CNC code put your chunk of aluminum in the machine and press start. But like I said that is my understanding. And it a damn blurry one at that.
If you have the equipment and your friend wants to do some reloading sell him your components make a bill of sale for him and yourself if you want some piece of mind. Now teach your friend safe reloading show him how to use your machine how to check critical dimensions. Now he can come over and when he needs to do some reloading and whip out some ammo or better yet go buy his own equipment.
Note: With a 07ffl a 06FFL is not needed.
So another question....
Though some of my research some people argue intent. You have x amount of reloaded ammo for your 270. Your intent was to shoot it in your 270 but you decided to see your 270 because of what ever reason. Now you have x amount of 270 rounds with nothing to shoot them. Some people have argued that your intention was not to manufacture the ammo but to shot it. This is the same argument when it comes down to manufacturing home built firearms. You can not manufacture a firearm without a 07ffl with the intention of selling it. But you can manufacture a firearm and decide after it is manufactured that you no longer need or want the firearm and sell it.
So my question is how is ammo any different the a firearm?
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Though some of my research some people argue intent. You have x amount of reloaded ammo for your 270. Your intent was to shoot it in your 270 but you decided to see your 270 because of what ever reason. Now you have x amount of 270 rounds with nothing to shoot them. Some people have argued that your intention was not to manufacture the ammo but to shot it. This is the same argument when it comes down to manufacturing home built firearms. You can not manufacture a firearm without a 07ffl with the intention of selling it. But you can manufacture a firearm and decide after it is manufactured that you no longer need or want the firearm and sell it.
So my question is how is ammo any different the a firearm?
There is no difference.
If you build a firearm for your own personal use and get bored with it you can legally sell it.
If you build a firearm to SELL you need to have an FFL.
If you load ammo for your own personal use, and at some point no longer have a use for said ammo, you can legally sell it. It would be no different than if you went to the store and purchased ammo and later sold the gun, you bought it to use, but now don't have a use so you can sell it.
If you load ammo TO SELL, you need an FFL.
Now to really confuse the issue...................
I hold an 01 FFL, I can legally sell you all of the components to build your own gun, then after selling you the components, you could then bring said components to me ( if I were a gunsmith and offered this service... ) and I could then build YOUR components into a working gun and it is gunsmithing, NOT manufacturing.
On the other hand, if I were to buy all of the components and BUILD a gun to offer for sale, I would be in violation as my 01FFL doesn't not allow manufacturing.
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The hole using someone elses machines to make weapons is still really fuzzy in my opnion. The way I understand there letter is you can not walk into a machine shop hand them 25 dollars and press a button wait and have a finished firearm kicked out. But you can give the shop $25 dollars rent to use there machine for 2 hrs write your own CNC code put your chunk of aluminum in the machine and press start. But like I said that is my understanding. And it a damn blurry one at that.
The 2015-1 ATF ruling basically only applies to gunsmiths or those in the business of firearm manufacture.
More generically 'push a button' stuff is more or less "who made the firearm". Whoever bends a blank into the shape of a receiver is the person who made that firearm. If you're just a joe shmoe with a vice and jig - all this means is make sure your buddy walks over to your tools and presses the button / hammers the plate down / turns the vice. But none of that has to do with 2015-1 ... that was just pre-existing law (or regs, whatever).
There might be some fun questions about cnc / 3d printing - but whatever.
I don't believe any of the above have anything to do with ammo, though. It's all very clearly spelled out as firearms themselves.
The topic of making ammo for someone else if they provide the materials and you don't get anything out of it (money, left over material, any other in-kind value) is ... well... you gained nothing from it. In fact you lost stuff in it. Time, wear on your machines, etc. 06FFL relates to business ventures. You're not receiving anything so ya prolly don't need the 06FFL. A signed waiver and still having an insurance policy is prolly a good idea. Look at the guy sueing some coffee place because he got burnt by the free coffee he was receiving every day.
Someone paying you to make use of your gear to make ammo is not addressed as far as I know. Now, if they made something illegal and you knew about it - that'd be a problem (see also: a titanium wire / nail / electrode in the middle of a pistol round - aka AP ammo). As a possible corollary, you would need to look at it like a pottery place letting folks use their turn wheels and autoclaves.... I think.
As an aside - SFG and I do have folks pay us for instruction on reloading - and during the course of the class, students do end up making 10-15 rounds of ammo on our equipment :D
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As an aside - SFG and I do have folks pay us for instruction on reloading - and during the course of the class, students do end up making 10-15 rounds of ammo on our equipment :D
Speaking of which, any movement on the next class? I couldn't make the last one because I was out of town (story of my life it seems).
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Nothing that I'm aware of - but we've not been pimping it out. Kinda letting the masses call for classes as they see fit :D