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General Categories => Information Arsenal => Topic started by: JTH on August 11, 2014, 08:49:46 PM
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Interesting article here, about self-defense weapon choices and how many people's skill level drops when they move from a full-size weapon to a pocket pistol.
Of course, my favorite part was when the results showed that people who participated in competitions regularly managed to shoot their pocket pistols (which they had not practiced with in the past year) pretty much just as well as their full-size pistols on the test, and were listed as "high skill" compared to the medium and low-skill folks who weren't.
:)
"Shooters classified as “high skill” had taken more than one defensive pistol course in the last year, or were regular competitors in shooting sports. These shooters had an average skill loss of less than 3%, with all but one shooter passing the test with both guns. None of these shooters had done any practice with their pocket guns in the past year prior to attending the pocket gun class."
(The high skill guy who didn't pass the test with both guns actually missed passing by one point with his PRIMARY gun, and I bet he was pretty embarrassed about it, too, since he passed with the pocket gun.)
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-a-pocket-gun-enough/ (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/is-a-pocket-gun-enough/)
The "Three Seconds or Less" drill he references is this one (or at least a variant of it):
http://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Information/ThreeSecondsOrLess.htm (http://www.krtraining.com/IPSC/Information/ThreeSecondsOrLess.htm)
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I've often thought about shooting a Steel Challenge with my j-frame.
Not! :)
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Interesting article. My carry gun is a compact version of my competition gun, but it's still not a pocket gun size so this isn't directly comparable. I have used it in competition a couple of times and I notice that my speed is almost exactly the same, but I'm a little less accurate with it. My guess is it's because of the shorter sight radius.
I do have a pocket gun (S&W 642) that I carry when I need something REALLY small, but I really don't practice with it much. I need to. I should try these drills with both carry guns and see how they stack up.
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Nice! Competition is good for you. :)
My carry gun (Kahr K9) has a fairly different trigger than my competition gun (Glock 34), as well as a different sight radius and "hand feel", yet the ability to hold the sights on target and pull a trigger straight back is pretty transferable. ;)
I will say that I also have a PF9 that I avoid shooting in practice as much as possible. Ow.
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I carry an M&P9 Shield. Now all of my handguns are M&Ps. It doesn't seem to make much difference which one I shoot affecting accuracy except the compact 9 seems to hit a little low. I know I need to get out and shoot more, though. I also need to get the wife more experience.
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My carry is a pf9 and I struggle with it past 10 yards, but within that point and shoot range I'm as good with it as anything.
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My 10 shot pocket gun fits in the front pocket of my jeans and is totally invisible (doesn't print), even when I set down. I carry 20-30 rounds in my other front pocket. (In case I needed some target practice ;) ).
It is difficult, but not impossible, to pull while I am setting, especially with the seat belt on.
Standing ... 1 or 2 seconds to fire. Setting ... 5 to 10 seconds.
In most situations I suspect that it will take more than 3 seconds for most people to realize that a situation exists where they might need to use their weapon. However, after taking courses for my CHP I find myself constantly evaluating risks and dangers where ever and when ever I am out in public, just like my flight instructor taught me that part of planning a flight is making sure that you know at each instant of that flight where the nearest spot (within glide range) to land is. I'm constantly scanning people who are wearing bulky clothing, especially around the waist, for possible concealed weapons. And yes, I profile.
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Standing ... 1 or 2 seconds to fire. Setting ... 5 to 10 seconds.
In most situations I suspect that it will take more than 3 seconds for most people to realize that a situation exists where they might need to use their weapon.
Meant to reply to this awhile ago. :)
I agree that for most people, given a defensive situation that isn't focused on them, it will probably take awhile to figure it out. (Example: person in a store, cashier two rows down being robbed at gunpoint.) On the other hand, if someone is surprised at gun/knifepoint in a mugging, they'll probably realize it a lot faster.
That being said---that amount of time (three seconds or not) is actually a time that gets added to the draw time. In other words, having a 1-2 second draw doesn't mean being able to draw within the notice/decision time, it means having a 4-5 second lag between the situation starting and an effective defense (assuming that a gun is the proper defense, and is going to be used effectively), because the "notice" time and the "draw" time both have to happen in that order.
That may be what you meant originally, but I wasn't sure, so I thought I'd mention it.
Secondly: You can get a 1-second draw from a pocket? When your hands didn't start in your pocket? That's utterly amazing. Seriously, I'd love to see that, because I can't get anywhere near that. (Matter of fact, I don't know anyone who can do that.) Thinking about it, a 2 second draw from a pocket (with hands not starting in pockets) is an exceedingly fast time, and something that not many people can do. Matter of fact, without prepping the draw (bagging the pocket, making sure the gun is easily accessible and angled correctly, etc) I don't think I could do that consistently at all in 2 seconds.
How do you do it? I don't pocket carry, but I know several people who do, and when people ask me how to speed up their draw there isn't anything I know that will get them into play that fast---so I'd certainly like to learn.
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The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket. A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380. These guns typically have a half a dozen rounds. These guns are often times sub par as well as sub compact. Low priced guns for your only source of protection is a licence to failure.
I think any off duty police officer will tell you, it is not about being comfortable, it is about being comforted.
Everytime I think about going pocket carry I get two images come to mind. A group of gang members, or a group of LE like Ruby Ridge or Waco or the subject in my avatar. These are all gangs we as socker moms and business folks always have to have in the back of our minds. Do I want to face down credible threats with six rounds in a 2" barrel ? No.
Guns are for counterbalancing tyranny as much as hold ups in family businesses. Cant counterbalance very much tyranny on a pocket gun.
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How do you do it? I don't pocket carry,
In every location (except while driving or riding in a car) I keep my hands in my pockets with the fingers of my right hand curled around the grip. My thumbs are outside the pocket. I am literally holding the gun, but it is not obvious or visible. As the gun comes out of my pocket my right thumb pushes the safety off. I couldn't get any faster using a hip holster from any concealed position. I am not reaching around behind me, inside a jacket, or reaching through a flap of shirt, or trying to pull up, or out, a shirt tail so I can expose the gun and draw it. My 9mm Beretta Nano required a concealing shirt or jacket to maintain stealth.
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(http://cdn.styleforum.net/b/b2/900x900px-LL-b2fdb6ac_lozGr_GIF_Collection_of_someone_eating_popcorn-s360x240-181194-580.gif)
Thanks for the entertainment, Thomas.
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In every location (except while driving or riding in a car) I keep my hands in my pockets with the fingers of my right hand curled around the grip. My thumbs are outside the pocket. I am literally holding the gun, but it is not obvious or visible.
Oh. So that "1-2 second draw" assumes you are holding the gun already. You are able to actually do this all the time?
I simply can't assume I'll be able to keep my hands on my gun all the time---often I have to carry things, hold stuff, open doors, etc. (Like eating food, which I'm a big fan of... :) ) For any particular type of carry (and my lifestyle), I just can't assume that I'll already have my hands on my gun, particularly in a self-defense situation. (Watching a movie, reading a menu, going to the restroom, unlocking my car, carrying groceries or anything I've bought from a store...)
What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?
As the gun comes out of my pocket my right thumb pushes the safety off. I couldn't get any faster using a hip holster from any concealed position. I am not reaching around behind me, inside a jacket, or reaching through a flap of shirt, or trying to pull up, or out, a shirt tail so I can expose the gun and draw it. My 9mm Beretta Nano required a concealing shirt or jacket to maintain stealth.
So---you have a pocket holster, with your hands in your pocket, but you also have a shirt or jacket over it? Or are you talking about a different gun/carry situation?
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The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket. A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380.
Sub compact 10mm. For pocket carry. Yeah, okay.
These guns typically have a half a dozen rounds. These guns are often times sub par as well as sub compact. Low priced guns for your only source of protection is a licence to failure.
So, minimum-wage folks shouldn't buy guns?
I'm curious---do you have ANY data, research, or information on how low-priced guns have failed citizens in self-defense situations? Do you have any information at all about how firearms are commonly used in self-defense, how many rounds are often fired, and what the effectiveness of various calibers are like, that you are using as the basis for your opinions?
I'll note that I personally don't carry pocket guns in minimal calibers with low capacity. That's my personal choice, however, and plenty of people have managed to defend themselves with .38 snubbies, .22 Berettas, and other low-capacity small-caliber firearms. And saying that people should carry 10mms as pocket pistols seems....unsupported by actual reality.
I think any off duty police officer will tell you, it is not about being comfortable, it is about being comforted.
I doubt "any off duty police officer" would say that, though a former police officer DID almost originally say that since that is a misquote of Clint Smith.
Everytime I think about going pocket carry I get two images come to mind. A group of gang members, or a group of LE like Ruby Ridge or Waco or the subject in my avatar. These are all gangs we as socker moms and business folks always have to have in the back of our minds. Do I want to face down credible threats with six rounds in a 2" barrel ? No.
You.....plan on facing down a group of LE folks with your concealed carry pocket gun? That is what you think about?
What is your lifestyle like, that this is the primary threat that you are thinking about defending against?
Guns are for counterbalancing tyranny as much as hold ups in family businesses. Cant counterbalance very much tyranny on a pocket gun.
Right, right, because you only get one gun, and if that gun can't be used to defend against gangs, groups of LEs, and tyranny, it just ISN'T ENOUGH.
Seriously, Gary, do you and reality intersect at any point at all?
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The problem I see in most people relying on pocket carry is the tool in their pocket. A sub compact 10mm is a vast exception to most guns that are small calibers of .25, .32 or .380.
Wait a second----Gary, aren't you the guy who carries with an empty chamber, AND puts a Saf-T-Blok in the gun?
While now apparently pocket-carrying a 10mm?
For the sake of my curiosity, what holster do you suggest for a pocket 10mm?
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it is not about being comfortable, it is about being comforted.
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Meh. Just because one guy making a living as an expert in modern times comes up with a catchy phrase doesn't mean I adopt it as gospel, or let it override the sum of my life experiences or my thoughts on risk mitigation.
One of the biggest firearm-related epiphanies I ever had was when I got to spend a few days visiting museums in Dresden and spent an afternoon at the Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Rüstkammer. Probably the best armory collection I've ever seen anywhere in the world. And the one thing I really walked away thinking was how far back firearms go in human history. It's common to think of them as relatively modern inventions (and the American media certainly portrays them as such -- as some new affliction that has just occurred in the last few decades that require urgent political action to "fix".) In reality they've been with us for many, many hundreds of years. Yes, I understand in the earliest days they were only the possessions of the most rich and privileged, but their trickle down to common men over the centuries causally coincided with the eschewing of monarchy and adoption of democracy. Personal firearms raised humanity up out of the muck of history, but no miraculous leaps of evolution have suddenly created 21st-century humans that don't mind being shot in the chest or head with a .38" projectile but will keel over instantly from a .45" one.
If someone wants to carry a Sig Sauer P232 because they feel it to be the most aesthetically beautiful and tactile gun ever made (which it is! ;)), or if it feels comfortable to carry, or if it conceals well with their wardrobe, or if there's simply some other emotional appeal that makes them want to have that gun with them, then they should do so. That .380 (in combination with avoiding neighborhoods where groups of gang members roam, and staying out of religious cults) should go a long way in mitigating risk, just like similar firearms with similar power have done for a long, long time.
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I have pocket carried. It is not a bad way haul a PF9. It doesn't print at all. I haven't timed my draw with my timer so I don't know how quick it is. An old dude with his his hand in his pocket isn't particularly threatening.
I also carry the PF9 in an ankle holster (only on long road trips since it is easy to access that way).
I recently picked up a holster for appendix carry. Surprisingly comfortable, agonizingly slow to draw so far. Struggle to present it and hit the 6" circle at 7 yards in 2.5 seconds. I've timed this so I know. Think it is a combination of moving the shirt and the small handle being hard to grasp. Putting in the biggest mag and will practice that way.
My Glock 17 I can draw from IWB behind right hip and put 5 shots in 6" circle in 4.2 seconds. Timed that.
In an OWB holster I can draw and hit the 6" circle in 1.46 to 1.54 seconds regularly.
Course the better half gets testy (a tiny bit) when I carry both. But what if the Zombies attack? :laugh:
Whatever I carry is loaded and ready to fire. NO empty chamber for me >:D
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Oh. So that "1-2 second draw" assumes you are holding the gun already. You are able to actually do this all the time?
Yup.
I simply can't assume I'll be able to keep my hands on my gun all the time---often I have to carry things, hold stuff, open doors, etc. (Like eating food, which I'm a big fan of... :) ) For any particular type of carry (and my lifestyle), I just can't assume that I'll already have my hands on my gun, particularly in a self-defense situation. (Watching a movie, reading a menu, going to the restroom, unlocking my car, carrying groceries or anything I've bought from a store...)
That's what God gave us two hands, and a wife for. :)
What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?
Don't know. Never let the gun out of my hand when I'm armed.
So---you have a pocket holster, with your hands in your pocket, but you also have a shirt or jacket over it? Or are you talking about a different gun/carry situation?
Nope. No pocket holster. Don't need it. No jacket or shirt over it either. It doesn't print, even if I left my hand out of the pocket, and with my hand in the pocket the outside of the pocket is flat. I wear Levi jeans all the time. The front pocket is big. If any thing in my pocket prints it is the swiss army knife that sets in the bottom.
Equally import is the fact that one reason why I switched to a mosquito is because my wife can charge it, hold it, aim it, pull the trigger without flinching, and do those things relatively quickly. The fact that it holds 10 rounds and I can carry an extra 50 in my other pocket without printing is a nice plus, although I don't imagine I'd ever get into an extended gun fight.
Someone mentioned a 10mm pocket pistol. I know my wife couldn't handle that the way she does our pocket pistol, and even if she fired it once I doubt she could hang onto it. I doubt I would want to.
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Pocket CHP Handgun Carrier Here: Kahr 9mm, Glock 33/.357Sig. Occasionally, a bitty Beretta 21-A mousegun.
I'm of the wife-in-left-hand-pocket handgun-in-right-hand persuasion. Sorta like GreyGeek.
And I do not get into the lickety-split-second draw stuff. [Except when fumbling around at IDPA and USPSA, when it gets downright pitiful.]
Frankly, Scarlet..........I don't give a damn about fast draw. And might even be a bit concerned about whipping out a handgun and shooting too quickly, before fully assessing the threat. There's a risk on that side, as well.
Also, I don't carry one in the chamber. I carry Israeli Defense (IDF) Style. Which means draw from the pocket and rack the slide. Deliberately. Not necessarily lickety-split. But fast enough under the circumstances.
I respect all who carry their own way. All who carry differently. All who can draw from anywhere lickety-split and lightning-fast. Different strokes for Different Folks.
And--oh, yes--all who think that shot placement matters with something as puny as a handgun.
FWIW
sfg
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^+1
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
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For the sake of friendly debate...
Frankly, Scarlet..........I don't give a damn about fast draw. And might even be a bit concerned about whipping out a handgun and shooting too quickly, before fully assessing the threat. There's a risk on that side, as well.
Do you have any statistical references or case examples of this? With 23,000 USPSA and 22,000 IDPA members, many of whom also carry concealed, where are all the stories of people whipping out their handgun and shooting too quickly?
You are also implying that you are drawing when you HAVEN'T yet accessed the situation to determine that deadly force is necessary? Talk about whipping it out too early. :o
But fast enough under the circumstances.
How do you know what fast enough is? Do you have any case examples or statistical references? Some do exist, and I doubt they would say that whatever your draw time using pocket Israeli carry is, is "fast enough."
And all of the above assumes a WHOLE lotta things. That you are given enough time and/or distance to complete a pocket draw with charging the weapon without interference, when, again, the prerequisite to even beginning you draw is someone presents a real threat of doing death or great bodily harm unto you.
And--oh, yes--all who think that shot placement matters with something as puny as a handgun.
Again, do you have any statistical references, or even case examples? And Again, some do exist. For purely shock and awe, I'll leave this as a reminder why accuracy matters with something as puny as a handgun.
http://youtu.be/OJ2B_GTLqvI (http://youtu.be/OJ2B_GTLqvI)
I respect all who carry their own way. All who carry differently.
I agree. In fact, as long as they are safe, I am glad folk are exercising their second amendment rights, BUT, when someone who has a different "school of thought" on the subject is going to start making claims along the lines of some of the ones you did, I feel the need to:
(http://img.pandawhale.com/88611-beating-dead-horse-gif-South-P-ZqEc.gif)
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You are welcome to carry Your Way.
I am welcome to carry Mine.
And all the Others, as they wish.
sfg
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Yup.
That's what God gave us two hands, and a wife for. :)
What's the draw time when you don't have your hand on the gun already?
Don't know. Never let the gun out of my hand when I'm armed.
Hm. I know that when I'm in a restaurant eating, I couldn't keep one hand in my pockets. Similarly, when sitting in a movie theatre or getting gasoline at a station or picking up a bag of softener salt to put in the hatch of my car or unlocking my car door while holding something or signing a register receipt with my strong hand....
I just simply don't think I could always keep one hand in a pocket, much less keep my strong hand in my pocket all the time.
And the times in which I would be taken unaware would be most likely to be ones in which I was already doing something, while means they are the times most likely to have me using both hands, and not having my hand in my pocket.
For me, I just can't make the assumption that I'll have my hand in my pocket on my gun.
Nope. No pocket holster. Don't need it. No jacket or shirt over it either. It doesn't print, even if I left my hand out of the pocket, and with my hand in the pocket the outside of the pocket is flat. I wear Levi jeans all the time. The front pocket is big. If any thing in my pocket prints it is the swiss army knife that sets in the bottom.
This Mosquito?
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/mosquito.aspx (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/mosquito.aspx)
That's just about the size of a Glock 19----wow. On me, even a tiny Beretta Tomcat prints, and I often wear cargo pants. Baggy cargo pants.
I must admit, I'm not a personal fan of pocket carry without a holster---external safety or not. I've seen to many cases where safeties have clicked off without the carrier meaning to do so, and exposed trigger guards make me cringe in general. That's me, though---plenty of people carry without holsters, and that's the individual's choice.
I"m trying to think of what I would look like if I tried to pocket carry a G19 (like I said, about the same size as the Mosquito). I'm thinking that people would come up to me and say things like "Shame about the tumor." :)
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You are welcome to carry Your Way.
I am welcome to carry Mine.
And all the Others, as they wish.
Absolutely.
This doesn't take away from the fact that when people make decisions regarding "their way" it is helpful to make those decisions informed ones, based on facts as best we know them. And having a discussion about those facts often brings things to light that some folks didn't know.
As such, it is helpful to ask people to back up their opinions with what facts they have. (Gotta love logic and facts!) This doesn't mean that opinions not backed with facts are automatically wrong--but it is true that it is helpful to check our opinions and compare them to the research that is available.
For example, I think that for concealed carry, draw speed is important. (Home/business defense, less so.) In a fairly long thread over on p-t.com, Tom Givens (of Rangemaster, and one of the few people I know who has a large enough database of student CCW actions to make conclusions from) chimed in with:
"Most of the time, if you need your gun to defend your life, it will be in the holster when you perceive that need. You will have a finite amount of time to deal with the problem. The longer it takes you to get your gun out, the less time you will have for decision making and accurate shooting. Duh...
Less than 10% of our student involved shootings have occurred in the home. The vast majority occur on the street, where your gun will be carried concealed in a holster. Armed robbery is probably the single most likely incident in which a civilian CCW would need a gun. According to the Justice Department, 85% of those occur away from home. So, since you'll be starting your response with a holstered handgun, how would access speed not be a major issue? "
..and was followed by a number of other good posts, including a useful discussion.
http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2531-Importance-of-a-fast-draw-in-self-defense&p=41085&viewfull=1#post41085 (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?2531-Importance-of-a-fast-draw-in-self-defense&p=41085&viewfull=1#post41085)
This entire thread started with the "3 seconds, 3 yards, 3 shots" drill based on a common set of statistics for CCW self-defense situations. While the pocket guns version started with the gun at low ready, the standard version does NOT, and for good reason. (Most people don't have their gun out prior to finding out they are going to need it.)
If the whole thing is over in three seconds, I'm thinking the sooner into that situation I am firing on target, the better it will be. If I have a four second draw, then----I'm probably never going to get to my gun.
Other comments by Todd Louis Green:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3516 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3516)
Regarding Israeli carry: Not a fan. Not only because of timing purposes (It is slower and/or less accurate. Period.) but because it presupposes the ability to rack the slide, and I might not have time, an extra hand, or something else may be missing such that I can't get the gun able to fire.
That's me, though.
Interesting discussion here regarding that: http://pistol-training.com/archives/219 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/219)
I personally think that in this day and age of reliable technology and molded holsters, the need for carry with an empty chamber by practiced individuals is gone. Opinions vary, of course. :)
Overall, my question to SFG would be (a one science person to another): You said "But fast enough under the circumstances." ----how do you know what you know? Is that based on facts known from research regarding CCW and self-defense? If so, could you please tell me what those are? Because that contradicts the knowledge base I have, and if there is additional research out there that I don't know about, I'd like to be informed!
I like making decisions based on facts. If I'm missing facts, please help!
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I like making decisions based on facts. If I'm missing facts, please help!
One caliber, gun size or method of draw does NOT fit all. If you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so. I won't try to dissuade you of it.
It doesn't matter if you believe you have all the facts on your side, you've appealed to authority, or what ever other logic you chose to employ. I and others, evaluating our personal situations, have come to a different conclusion. As an old physics teacher I am well aware that experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions. Majority rule doesn't matter. Theory proposes, experiment disposes.
After several trips to the firing range it was obvious that my wife could not handle our Beretta Nano, as small as it was. Firing it made her hand and arm hurt, and her fear of the weapon grew with each use. I decided to switch to a weapon that she could handle as well as I, and that we would depend on factory loaded ammo for reliability, not reloads. Ergo, I sold my Nano and reloading equipment, and purchased a 10+1 pocket pistol that wife could handle and several thousand rounds of ammo. She has no fear of the gun we chose, she can handle it well and shoot it satisfactorily. Even if she tried she couldn't "fast draw" that mosquito and shoot it accurately. But, since 95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft, she had demonstrated repeatedly that she can reliably and repeatedly hit the center of mass, reload, and continue shooting without pain, or fear of the weapon.
Even if you "out draw" the thug you may not be aware that another thug is masquerading as a customer, or standing secretly by the door, or where ever, and acting as cover for the primary thug. If you fast draw and fire first you have no guarantee that he or any possible partners won't fire back regardless of the caliber you use. Youtube has many videos of people shot with larger caliber handguns who didn't even know it and walked around for a while before getting tired and setting down. There are also videos showing people dropping instantly when hit with a light caliber round. Neither example matters much because they do not and cannot guarantee a particular outcome. Past performance is no guarantee of future behavior. Unless you can guarantee that each quick draw shot will result in a hit in the head, neck or spine of the perp (or perps), you face the risk of being shot yourself. We all do. If the thug already has his gun drawn and pointed at you from three feet away then your odds of defeating him with a fast draw are even less.
In my opinion, the key to successful usage of a handgun for self defense is surprise and calm, accurate fire, if shooting is necessary, not speed of draw or rate of fire. As an old deputy marshal I once used armed intervention to capture an escaped murderer and took him to jail in Central City. When I positioned myself six to eight feet in front of the escapee, so that any potential gun fire would pass out through the front door of the bar, or out the back wall behind me, I drew my weapon. My gun, a 9mm Espana, was steady as a rock as I held it on the escapee. I still have a perfect image in my mind of people in the bar diving for cover behind the bar or under tables while screaming and shouting when I drew it. Then everything got extremely quiet. The escapee stood there with his hand near his coat pocket, the pocket which was being pulled down by a heavy weight and showed a roundness similar to a gun barrel. The 9mm Espana semi-auto has a hammer (just like my pocket pistol), which I never kept cocked even though a live round was in the chamber. The escapee turned around and began walking away, while putting his hand into the pocket. I cocked the hammer back. The bar was so quiet it sounded like a hammer hitting a bell. The escapee froze. After securing his hands behind his head with a grip on his interlocked index fingers I marched him across the street to the cruiser.
After I had him cuffed and put him into the back of the cruiser I took a deep breath and noticed my heart racing, but while the event was playing out it I wasn't aware of it. I was calm. It was like I was watching a movie of the event instead of being a part of it. I know why. I am not afraid of dying. As a Believer I accept the word of Jesus that even the hairs of my head are numbers, and so I have no problem with Job or the writer of Psalms saying that my days are numbered as well.
Job 14:5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set."
I've been on this planet for 877 months and I am thankful for each one. But, I know that as each month passes I have fewer months remaining. I also know that God is in charge. I read the Book. In the end the Man on the white horse wins. So I don't worry about the collapse of the economy or any putative attack of terrorists, or of food shortages, power shortages, or street thugs with guns. None of them have the ability to shorten what God has decreed for me, and when my time comes it will come. Sooner or later. Ecclesiastes 12 says it all.
Even if I am present at the scene of an armed robbery I will make no attempt to stop the perp as long as he/she doesn't begin shooting. I hold my CHP for my own protection, not to voluntarily defend the property of the store or the people in it. They have their own opportunity to acquire their own defensive weapons and training. So, I will not initiate shooting over stolen property. Stores carry insurance for theft. If, on the other hand, the perp demands patrons march into a back room, or begins shooting them, I will respond. Even if I am the first one shot there is no guarantee for the perp that his bullet will disable me before I shoot one or more into him. Will I or my wife survive? Will you with your fast draw survive? Neither of us can guarantee that we will, but we both will choose the best moment to suit our needs and circumstances at the time. My first choice will be not to shoot, even if the perp asks for my wallet. I never carry money and I can cancel my credit cards before the legal time limit for reimbursement passes. No reason to kill anyone over money or credit cards or store property.
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One caliber, gun size or method of draw does NOT fit all. If you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so. I won't try to dissuade you of it.
It doesn't matter if you believe you have all the facts on your side, you've appealed to authority, or what ever other logic you chose to employ. I and others, evaluating our personal situations, have come to a different conclusion. As an old physics teacher I am well aware that experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions. Majority rule doesn't matter. Theory proposes, experiment disposes.
Hm. I think the logic and facts used to make a decision do matter, actually. People can of course make their own decisions. However, this doesn't change the fact that some choices are better than others. Decisions based on realistic assumptions regarding self-defense, with respect to a person's own situation, will give best results.
Ending with "experiment disposes" rather supports the idea of actually using real data based on aggregate situations for decision-making purposes. I note also that saying that "experts can debate the same set of data and come to entirely different conclusions" is similar to saying "we should ignore all data because people can't agree on conclusions" both of which statements are demonstrably untrue.
In other words, if you are making your choices based on a dataset, research study, or information that I don't currently have, I'd like to see/read it. More information makes me more informed, which makes the likelihood of making good choices better.
Assuming I know everything and that my personal choices don't need to be based on anything but personal preference is a good way to choose badly.
I note: "f you want to fast draw against a threat feel free do to so. I won't try to dissuade you of it. "
Glad to hear it. If there is a threat to my life, I'm certainly not going to move slowly. If I need to save my life, or the life of someone I love, I'm pretty sure that moving slowly isn't going to be optimal. Conversely, I AM pretty sure that the sooner I'm ready to shoot, the sooner I can make a difference.
(Cue the comments about making a stealthy draw when the bad guy isn't looking, and how a fast draw would be noticeable. Yeah, just because a person practices for an effective draw doesn't mean that's the only thing they know.)
Given a decision-making process in an incipient self-defense situation, I know approximately what my draw is going to be--and from that, I have an idea of how much room/space I need to complete that draw. Which informs me in terms of whether drawing is a good idea, moving is a good idea, or some combination of both.
If I don't know my draw speed, I can't make intelligent decisions about that.
After several trips to the firing range it was obvious that my wife could not handle our Beretta Nano, as small as it was. Firing it made her hand and arm hurt, and her fear of the weapon grew with each use. I decided to switch to a weapon that she could handle as well as I, and that we would depend on factory loaded ammo for reliability, not reloads. Ergo, I sold my Nano and reloading equipment, and purchased a 10+1 pocket pistol that wife could handle and several thousand rounds of ammo. She has no fear of the gun we chose, she can handle it well and shoot it satisfactorily. Even if she tried she couldn't "fast draw" that mosquito and shoot it accurately. But, since 95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft, she had demonstrated repeatedly that she can reliably and repeatedly hit the center of mass, reload, and continue shooting without pain, or fear of the weapon.
I'm thinking that your idea of "fast draw" and mine is different. We aren't shooting from the hip, here, nor are we waving the gun wildly and blasting off rounds as fast as we can. We are, however, getting that first shot into the attacker as quickly as we can accurately do it.
As such, I'm not sure why your wife couldn't have a perfectly decent draw and accurate first shot. (Other than she is drawing from your pocket...? That would obviously make a difference in speed.)
Might I ask where your contention of "95% of all shootings take places within 15 ft" comes from? Is that LEO-based? Citizen self-defense based? What are the circumstances?
Anyway---main point is that I'm not sure how this has anything to do with wanting to be able to get the firearm in action as fast as possible once you've made your decision to use it.
Even if you "out draw" the thug you may not be aware that another thug is masquerading as a customer, or standing secretly by the door, or where ever, and acting as cover for the primary thug. If you fast draw and fire first you have no guarantee that he or any possible partners won't fire back regardless of the caliber you use. Youtube has many videos of people shot with larger caliber handguns who didn't even know it and walked around for a while before getting tired and setting down. There are also videos showing people dropping instantly when hit with a light caliber round.
None of that makes any difference to whether or not you draw quickly, or slowly. Other than drawing slowly means that said person/people/groups etc will have more time in their attack before your response makes any difference.
Neither example matters much because they do not and cannot guarantee a particular outcome. Past performance is no guarantee of future behavior.
Don't recall asking for a guarantee. Matter of fact, just like the previous section, that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Unless you can guarantee that each quick draw shot will result in a hit in the head, neck or spine of the perp (or perps), you face the risk of being shot yourself. We all do. If the thug already has his gun drawn and pointed at you from three feet away then your odds of defeating him with a fast draw are even less.
Obviously. Same is true no matter what you do. It is certainly true that if you draw SLOWLY, you have even less of a chance. Again you use the word guarantee, and again the situation mentioned is irrelevant to the topic at hand, other than again, a slow draw will only make your chances worse.
In my opinion, the key to successful usage of a handgun for self defense is surprise and calm, accurate fire, if shooting is necessary, not speed of draw or rate of fire.
And yet, assuming surprise on your side is unlikely. Possible, but not something that should be relied upon. Unless, of course, you are meaning "surprise" as in "they are already threatening my life, and I surprise them by bringing up a gun" in which case being able to do so quickly gives you a much better chance.
Accurate fire is obviously important. Don't believe anyone has argued about rate of fire (though personally, I think that if I can put four shots accurately in a six inch circle at 5 yards in two seconds from a surprise start with the first shot hitting at 1.3 seconds and do this consistently, then I'm probably in better shape than someone who takes 2 seconds for their first shot and completes four shots in 3.5 seconds, because the other guy is working on killing you during this time and lots can happen in those extra seconds).
Main point for this part: I'm not sure how you can assume surprise being on your side. And I still don't see how taking longer to get the gun out won't be detrimental to your survival chances.
As an old deputy marshal I once used armed intervention to capture an escaped murderer and took him to jail in Central City. When I positioned myself six to eight feet in front of the escapee, so that any potential gun fire would pass out through the front door of the bar, or out the back wall behind me, I drew my weapon. My gun, a 9mm Espana, was steady as a rock as I held it on the escapee. I still have a perfect image in my mind of people in the bar diving for cover behind the bar or under tables while screaming and shouting when I drew it. Then everything got extremely quiet. The escapee stood there with his hand near his coat pocket, the pocket which was being pulled down by a heavy weight and showed a roundness similar to a gun barrel. The 9mm Espana semi-auto has a hammer (just like my pocket pistol), which I never kept cocked even though a live round was in the chamber. The escapee turned around and began walking away, while putting his hand into the pocket. I cocked the hammer back. The bar was so quiet it sounded like a hammer hitting a bell. The escapee froze. After securing his hands behind his head with a grip on his interlocked index fingers I marched him across the street to the cruiser.
After I had him cuffed and put him into the back of the cruiser I took a deep breath and noticed my heart racing, but while the event was playing out it I wasn't aware of it. I was calm. It was like I was watching a movie of the event instead of being a part of it.
Not really sure how this is relevant to the topic at hand.
I know why. I am not afraid of dying. As a Believer I accept the word of Jesus that even the hairs of my head are numbers, and so I have no problem with Job or the writer of Psalms saying that my days are numbered as well.
Job 14:5 "A man’s days are numbered. You know the number of his months. He cannot live longer than the time You have set."
I've been on this planet for 877 months and I am thankful for each one. But, I know that as each month passes I have fewer months remaining. I also know that God is in charge. I read the Book. In the end the Man on the white horse wins. So I don't worry about the collapse of the economy or any putative attack of terrorists, or of food shortages, power shortages, or street thugs with guns. None of them have the ability to shorten what God has decreed for me, and when my time comes it will come. Sooner or later. Ecclesiastes 12 says it all.
Same thing: personal for you, but irrelevant to this topic.
Even if I am present at the scene of an armed robbery I will make no attempt to stop the perp as long as he/she doesn't begin shooting. I hold my CHP for my own protection, not to voluntarily defend the property of the store or the people in it. They have their own opportunity to acquire their own defensive weapons and training. So, I will not initiate shooting over stolen property. Stores carry insurance for theft.
Ok.
If, on the other hand, the perp demands patrons march into a back room, or begins shooting them, I will respond. Even if I am the first one shot there is no guarantee for the perp that his bullet will disable me before I shoot one or more into him. Will I or my wife survive? Will you with your fast draw survive? Neither of us can guarantee that we will, but we both will choose the best moment to suit our needs and circumstances at the time. My first choice will be not to shoot, even if the perp asks for my wallet. I never carry money and I can cancel my credit cards before the legal time limit for reimbursement passes. No reason to kill anyone over money or credit cards or store property.
This again doesn't address the topic. You say that you will respond in certain circumstances---but then ask if my "fast draw" (which again, I think you don't seem to understand) will guarantee my safety.
Of course not. On the other hand, if I start to move my hand to draw the gun, and the bad guy notices it and starts to react to me, I know that drawing quickly will end better for me than drawing slowly.
(Hm. How are you going to keep your hand in your pocket if the bad guy has you put your hands in the air?)
Main point here: I don't understand why people think that drawing slowly is a plus. I don't understand why people think that taking more time to effectively respond to a lethal-level threat is somehow better. Or even that taking less time is somehow not worth doing.
Again I ask: Is there any information out there about concealed carry self-defense situations in which draw speed makes no difference, or that shows that much of the time, being able to get your weapon into play quickly isn't necessary?
For folks interested in some thoughts on citizen concealed carry self-defense, I strongly recommend getting a copy of Tom Given's Lessons From The Street. [sigh] Pincus makes money on it, but it is still worth getting.
http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.tabs.tpl&product_id=74&category_id=2&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29 (http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.pbv.tabs.tpl&product_id=74&category_id=2&vmcchk=1&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29)
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As usual, when two strongly held positions reach an impass, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Amicably.
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As usual, when two strongly held positions reach an impass, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Amicably.
Absolutely. I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinion, and I'm certainly not saying you can't make your own decisions about your life. That is absolutely yours, and nobody certainly has to listen to me.
Again---I just wanted to know if there was some data, research, information, or logical argument that I didn't know about that I need to take into account when making my decisions. If people don't have anything, that doesn't mean they are wrong, or that they should use my choices instead of theirs. It just means that their opinions are based on a different understanding of the general self-defense world than mine.
I just always want as much research data as I can get. :)
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Nebraska law stipulates the conditions for legally allowing CCW holders to use deadly force.
I know that if I have to bring a gun into play, I want to do it as quickly as possible without any additional steps like racking the slide.
That being said, it is good that so many of us are choosing to carry. To each his own :D