NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Shooting Sports => Topic started by: OnTheFly on October 13, 2013, 12:38:40 AM
-
Let me preface this rant with a few statements...
- I DO appreciate all the participation from the area shooters in local matches
- As far as RO's go I am relatively inexperienced
- My intent here is not to embarrass or discourage anyone from shooting these matches
- I am ONLY asking people to take the RO's suggestions to heart and improve their level of safety
- I made the same errors, maybe even worse, two to three years ago when I started shooting the local matches
I was putting in my time to help RO at a local match. There were a few shooters who had minor safety infractions. A few were "younger" shooters who I had not met before, and they were receptive to my input. Those were positive experiences that I hope were taken the right way.
The negative experiences were only negative because I KNOW several of these shooters have frequented the same match I was RO'ing. They have had multiple comments from RO's cautioning their bad habits or lack of attention to their actions.
One of the gentlemen that sticks out in my head was at the last match I RO'd several months ago. I was recording the scores while a very accomplished shooter who I have great respect for was running the timer. After the aforementioned individual shot, we were down range scoring when one (or both) of us got fouled up on the count. I advised the other RO that something was amiss. He stepped over to me and quietly said “I DON’T want to run this guy again because he scares the CRAP out of me”. Point taken and his score was finalized. Was it fair? Probably not. Was it prudent? I think so considering that sometimes the best way to keep things safe is to reduce exposure with the hopes that the RO’s suggestions will be taken to heart.
Fast forward to the recent match I RO’d. The same gentleman was at this match. I knew how he had performed previously, so I kept my eyes glued on what he was doing with the gun. I would say that there was some improvement until after the course of fire when it came time to secure the firearm. He unloaded the firearm, but as he was reaching forward to get his gun bag, he swept his forearm with the muzzle...TWICE. Once he had the gun bagged, I pointed out what he did. In what I perceived as a slightly annoyed tone, he asked “You mean after the gun was unloaded?”. Which I took to imply that this was an acceptable act considering that the gun was unloaded. I replied with “Treat every gun as if it is loaded...right?!”. He mumbled an acknowledgement, but it was not the positive, “I made an error and will do better next time” enlightenment that I was hoping for. This has apparently been the unwavering pattern for the shooter.
Do I have a point? This is NOT an attempt to embarrass any shooter(s). It is a plea to anyone who shoots (competively or otherwise) to put serious thought into practicing safe gun handling. Especially when you receive suggestions from an RO. This is not to say that an RO is always right. However, I would suggest that MOST RO’s are in that unpaid position because they are devoted to running a successful and fun, but more importantly, SAFE match. The RO’s job is not to just run the timer and score the hits. Their primary job is to ensure the safety of the shooter and others around. The best way to do this is for the RO to actively watch the shooter's hands.
As I said in my initial statements, I have made the same, maybe even worse errors. Occasionally I still do, but what I don’t do is disregard my errors. I accept critique from others. Even if I didn't receive critique from others, I know that I need to be honest with myself about my performance if I want to get better. Often my self-critique is more critical than any I receive from others.
So how about you? Do you...
...treat every gun as if it is loaded regardless of what you “know”?
...keep your finger completely outside the trigger guard when loading, unloading, moving or when the firearm is not pointed at the intended target?
...ever sweep yourself with the muzzle?
...know the rules of the match before you show up?
...accept critique from others?
...self critique?
...strive for perfection?
You NEVER know it all, you can NEVER have sustained perfect technique, but you CAN and SHOULD strive for those goals.
Fly
-
Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?
-
In the example given, this shooter should have been DQ'd. The safety rules of USPSA are very clear in this. Even though the gun was cleared, he should still have been DQ'd due to sweeping himself. I am one of the ROs who will usually give a "warning" to a newer shooter for an infraction such as mentioned, but I only give one warning. The next time its done is a DQ. I, however, DO NOT give warnings for situations that are likely to cause harm -- 180 breaks, ADs that go outside/over the berms, etc.
We RO's do volunteer our time, some of us A LOT of time, to be sure that our sport is allowed to continue in a safe manner. My thoughts on a DQ is this "if you get DQ'd, treat it as a learning experience, and don't do it again!" Is it fun to get DQ'd? NO! However, pitching a fit, arguing about it, or just plain being mean about it makes you less of a sportsman, and, frankly, less of a human being in my book.
Having said all of that -- we NEED MORE RO'S! Anyone who is shooting the matches with the ENPS at ENGC and are not ROs really should take the class. We are planning another one this spring, so if you are interested, please let me know and I'll put you on the "tentative" list. Once we get the date set from the NROI, I'll let you know and get your registration. You can messenge me on here, or send me an email letting me know you are interested in the RO class at: enpsinfo@gmail.com
-
Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?
Have you ever driven home, but couldn't remember what you did to get there? When your mind kicks into auto pilot, it follows the things you have or haven't practiced. If you don't follow the safety rules every time, what will you do when you're distracted?
Public shame goes a long way towards correcting bad behavior. If people know you're the unsafe guy that everyone needs to worry about, you'll be very uncomfortable. Whether that goes towards correction your actions or sending you on your way, we'll be safer.
I'm not a RO, but that guy needed to be DQ'ed, so that he could be publicly embarrassed.
-
I watched a buddy get dq'd for that exact thing. no matter how silly it is, it's still a rule
-
In the example given, this shooter should have been DQ'd. The safety rules of USPSA are very clear in this.
This wasn't USPSA. If it was, that would have been an easy call. This is a match with a great foundation, but not nearly the established rules of USPSA.
Fly
-
In my limited experience at ENGC I have found the RO folks to be generally helpful. I was DQ'd once and it was well deserved, but I learned from it. I have received some helpful hints from some and encouragement from most. I am one shooter that appreciates the time and effort put in by all.
-
Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?
Because it should have been a DQ under the rules. At any USPSA, Steel Challenge, or Multigun match, if you sweep yourself it is a DQ. We aren't going to check to see if the gun is loaded first, nor do we care. If you can't control the gun well enough to make sure that it doesn't point at your body, we aren't going to wait until you load it and point it at your body to say "Ok, time to stop!"
Similar to reloading with the finger on the trigger. If you do this but don't pull the trigger, the gun won't go off. However, we are going to DQ you anyway---because if you keep your finger on the trigger while reloading, you WILL pop one off sometime. And we aren't going to wait until that happens to tell you that you aren't being safe. (Nor are we going to wait until you put one over the berm into someone's field.)
If you do something unsafe, we are going to stop you before "unsafe" becomes "medical emergency."
Additionally:
How many times have you heard about someone getting shot by accident when the guy holding the gun later said "I thought it was unloaded!"
It is amazing how many people get shot by unloaded guns each year. Matter of fact, just Google "accidental shooting" and see how many people are shot each year by people who are just SURE the gun is empty.
If you don't ingrain safety habits such that you use them ALL of the time, you WILL end up in error. In USPSA, Multigun, and Steel Challenge matches, you don't sweep yourself. Period.
If you never sweep yourself, then you'll never shoot yourself. Especially with an "unloaded" gun.
I've seen a LOT of people who think that the safety rules change as long as you have an "unloaded gun". I find that most of those people are NOT safe when the gun is loaded, either. (Because they've been sloppy in their practice, and they have NOT ingrained safety as an automatic, normal matter of course.) These are the people that make you cringe every time you see them at the range.
If people think this is too much Safety Nazi stuff, that's fine---go ahead and do what you want, safety-wise. You won't be able to shoot any competitions, though. And I won't want to ever shoot with you, either. If a person decides that safety is something that they can be lax about, then at some point in time, they are going to shoot someone.
If they shoot themselves, that's pretty much a logical consequence. But I don't want to be around them and have them shoot ME.
Quite frankly, I don't think this is a silly rule at all. Again---if you don't have sufficient muzzle control to not point the gun at yourself, why should we wait until you actually shoot yourself to point out your safety issue?
-
Here's a good place to link this:
http://pistol-training.com/archives/8672 (http://pistol-training.com/archives/8672)
(Different case, but similar topic.)
-
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?
gsd,
Your attitude is the EXACT thing I am trying to change with my post. At a USPSA match, I watched a normally safe shooter, after given the "If you are finished, unload and show clear..." command, quickly rack the slide without dropping the magazine, pull the trigger, and bounce a round off of the floor. That disqualified him as it would in the other style match I was RO'ing in my example.
The point being, no person (RO, competitor, or shooter) is perfect. If you practice safe gun handling ALL OF THE TIME, this becomes second nature. Errors will be made, but they will be considerably less. How many negligent discharges have you experienced or read about where the person activating the trigger stated "...but the gun was unloaded!"?
So are you telling me that you would actually point the muzzle of a gun at something you wouldn’t want to shoot (your dog, family member, or your own body part) because it is empty?
Fly
-
Because it should have been a DQ under the rules.
See my post (Reply #5) above.
Fly
-
I watched a buddy get dq'd for that exact thing. no matter how silly it is, it's still a rule
Ok...maybe I'm just a fanatic, or it is my OCD surfacing, but HOW IN THE WORLD is this "silly"? The first rule of gun safety, "ALWAYS treat a gun as if it is loaded".
Maybe this is the most upsetting thing about what I have experienced. People show up at the match and learn the "silly" rules of the sport, but don't carry those over to their day-to-day gun handling. WHY?! These rules aren't ridiculous idiosyncrasies, they are common sense.
Fly
-
I'm not a RO, but that guy needed to be DQ'ed, so that he could be publicly embarrassed.
I would agree that there are a few things in life that "teach" us what to do and what not to do. Embarrassment and pain can make a lasting impression. However, a match DQ is done first and foremost to keep the sport safe, and so that the shooter never gets to the more extreme teachings of pain. The second purpose of the DQ is to teach. Getting DQ'd means no more shooting, no ranking for the match, no scores posted, and no money back. This will make you want to avoid a DQ in the future.
The embarrassment part of the DQ is not (and IMHO should NOT) be any part of the intent. However, if you are at all a conscientious person, the embarrassment will be all internal. THIS is the sign of a person who is truly concerned about safety and who seeks improvement.
If you shrug off your unsafe act as "no big deal", then you need to find another sport AND you need to seriously reconsider your gun handling.
Fly
-
This is where I very much want someone to yell at me if I muck up.
I *used to* (ahem, still surfaces from time to time) have a "bad habit" of securing and clearing the top of my holster with my support hand before holstering. Obviously, dependent on the exact setup of the holster, this can mean sweeping one's own support hand while holstering.
Now, this was ingrained and motivated from back in the day when I was "forced" to use crappy holsters, with crappy mounting systems, and crappy (snap-backstrap) retention devices, often in brush and weeds. I developed this as muscle memory because, quite frankly, it was the lesser of two evils. The risk of shooting myself in my support hand was negligible compared to the risk of shooting myself in the leg while reholstering if I didn't physically move to clear my holster of the backstrap, weeds, brush, or whatever may get into my trigger guard while reholstering. And if I didn't physically secure my holster, it would flop about, and function as another unstable element in this math equation of danger.
Now you might say "why didn't you just look to check the holster?" Quite frankly, no. Without the ingrained habit of actually moving to clear it, "looking" just wasn't going to cut it. "Looking" is quite different from "observing and making a decision based on what is observed" and if I am going to define a habit, I will define one for the worst case scenario. (And for the record, I saw at least one person shoot themselves in the leg, partially due to one of these crappy holsters... luckily with simunitions, but still enough to get him kicked out of the course we were in)
For the most part, this bad habit is gone, but every once in a while I'll use a different holster (such as a bladetech) for some reason (practicing for an upcoming steel challenge), and this now bad habit resurfaces. I say *now* bad because I do still believe it was a "good" habit, at one time, but those days are gone.
Luckily, someone else spotted it, and corrected me on it. I then told him to continue to correct me on it. I also was very slow and deliberate about my reholstering for the rest of the day, hoping to not ingrain a now bad habit on this setup anymore than it already is. I am glad he spotted it so I could correct it, and had I been unwilling to correct it, he would have been more than justified to be more aggressive about his correction.
The moral of the story is: "See something? Say something." Regardless of the setting, this is not just a match RO's job, but our job as responsible firearms owners.
Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why :)
-
Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why
Speed re-holstering. Now THAT is a whole other barrel of monkeys. Oy vey!
Fly
-
No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.
And your intimation that I would is offensive.
-
Also, if I seem to be very slow and deliberate on reholstering at the SC match, now you know why :)
The good thing is your reholstering and magazine changes aren't on the clock. :laugh: Just shoot the steel real fast :D
-
No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.
And your intimation that I would is offensive.
Not sure who that is directed to, since a number of people have posted in this thread. If it was me, though....
....my use of the word "you" was generic, and not particularly pointed at anyone. I do note, however, that since you were the person who said:
Not trying to start an argument here, but you watched him unload the firearm and verify clear, and then called him on muzzle sweeping his arm with an empty firearm you watched him unload?
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?"
...my simple reply is: Because he swept himself. And again, as I said, we aren't going to wait until someone shoots himself before we stop him for unsafe handgun handling.
Considering you said the above, the assumption that you don't think it was a big deal seems pretty straightforward, whereupon the assumption that you WOULD (under those circumstances) point a firearm at something you weren't willing to destroy seems also pretty straightforward.
Or did you mean "why did you do that, even though I understand it was a safety issue?" Because that certainly isn't the way it came across.
It came across as a "why did you do that, the GUN was UNLOADED, so it wasn't a big deal" ---- which is precisely what this thread is about. If you meant something else, please clarify.
-
It was not meant for you jth. I asked for clarification in my original post and received it from Julie. If I asked in a manner that came across differently oh well.
I take offense to Flys post.
-
No. I would never point a firearm at anything I did not intend to destroy.
And your intimation that I would is offensive.
gsd...I'm sorry that you take offense to my question, but you need to help me understand why someone shouldn't be corrected for breaking THE foundation of gun safety. Are the rules...
- Treat every firearm as if it is loaded, unless you are sure it isn't.
- Don't point a firearm at anything you don't intend to destroy, unless it isn't loaded.
- Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot, unless the gun isn't loaded.
So help me understand your question...
I understand the concept of treat every firearm as loaded and practice it as well, but why would you do that?
As an RO, why wouldn't I correct the shooter on their unsafe acts? Or are you saying their actions were safe?
Fly
-
It was not meant for you jth. I asked for clarification in my original post and received it from Julie. If I asked in a manner that came across differently oh well.
I take offense to Flys post.
Maybe I (and apparently most everyone else who has re-affirmed my thoughts) took your question the wrong way. I did not mean it as an attack. Please elaborate on where you were going with your question.
Fly
-
I got all the information I needed from Julie's post. No further clarification is needed.
Match rules dictate it, fair enough. End of story.
-
Match rules dictate it, fair enough. End of story.
I'm sorry gsd, but this is my OCD speaking. My post had really nothing to do with the rules of any game, and was much more about the lackadaisical attitude towards safe gun handling. I am talking about people learning and applying the same safe gun handling skills regardless of whether they are at a match or at home. And when someone points out an error, the shooter should take it to heart as they work to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Fly
-
Nothing to do with match rules, common sense says never to point a gun at something you do not want to destroy. Never means never, it does not matter if 25 people checked the firearm to see if it is unloaded, Never point a firearm at something you do not want to destroy.
If your intention is to destroy your arm by sweeping across it with the muzzle of a firearm, then this comment does not apply to you.
-
Here is a novel idea:
I am not that guy. So drop it.
-
I know I shouldn't but! I have now painted all of my range bags with an bright hunter orange end. Now I can be sure that I am not pointing my weapon at anything I don't wish to destroy. I haven't figured out yet how to put it in the trunk since it is pointing at my car (or someone sitting in the seats), or its pointing at the car behind me. (all above is tongue in cheek, so please don't yell.)
YES, FIREARMS SAFETY IS VERY IMPORTANT. CHECK FOR CLEAR, HAVE THE NEXT SHOOTER CHECK YOUR WEAPON FOR CLEAR. THEN RECHECK. ONCE VERIFIED, THEN LEAVE IT ALONE. ANY WEAPONS MISHANDLING ON THE RANGE IS DQ.
-
I know I shouldn't but! I have now painted all of my range bags with an bright hunter orange end. Now I can be sure that I am not pointing my weapon at anything I don't wish to destroy. I haven't figured out yet how to put it in the trunk since it is pointing at my car (or someone sitting in the seats), or its pointing at the car behind me. (all above is tongue in cheek, so please don't yell.)
ACTUALLY YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT! Sorry about yelling. ;D My best example of what you are pointing out is when I appendix carry. The muzzle is always pointed at something I DON'T want to destroy. The femoral artery, or my man bits. The dividing line on your point and what I am talking about is whether the gun is being handled. Placed in a safe bag, box, case, holster...this is a different subject. However, if possible, my OCD forces me to still point the firearm away from things that would be devastating if shot, such as people, etc.
Fly
-
Does anyone dry fire practice? If so, what do you point at then?
-
Does anyone dry fire practice? If so, what do you point at then?
Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures. I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. ;D
Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me. Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important. My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.
Fly
-
ACTUALLY YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT! Sorry about yelling. ;D My best example of what you are pointing out is when I appendix carry. The muzzle is always pointed at something I DON'T want to destroy. The femoral artery, or my man bits. The dividing line on your point and what I am talking about is whether the gun is being handled. Placed in a safe bag, box, case, holster...this is a different subject. However, if possible, my OCD forces me to still point the firearm away from things that would be devastating if shot, such as people, etc.
Fly
Dont you "handle" the gun holstering and drawing from appendix? Would you ever draw from appendix while seated in a vehicle? Sweeping yourself in that example is unavoidable. My point is that there may be unavoidable situations were you will sweep yourself or someone else with a gun. Is there risk? Yep. Can that risk be minimized by training and following other safety rules? Yep. Not like the original post were the sweeping of the arm was avoidable and lazy IMO. There is no excuse for pointing a weapon at yourself or anyone else if it can be avoided.
Ever wonder why employees at busy public ranges get testy on occasion? That safety violation and accompanying attitude is one example of what they deal with on a regular basis. And the main reason why, after 10+ years, I called it quits. I got tired of having to argue with shooters who didnt think the rules should apply to them.
- Shawn
-
Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures. I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. ;D
Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me. Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important. My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.
Fly
I keep my weapons trained on our orange cat as much as possible.
-
Dont you "handle" the gun holstering and drawing from appendix? Would you ever draw from appendix while seated in a vehicle? Sweeping yourself in that example is unavoidable. My point is that there may be unavoidable situations were you will sweep yourself or someone else with a gun. Is there risk? Yep. Can that risk be minimized by training and following other safety rules?
Agreed. When I was describing the rules of USPSA to a friend and infractions (such as sweeping yourself) that would get you DQ'd, he asked about holstering/unholstering. Your reply was basically what I told him. There are obviously times when the gun will unavoidably sweep your body parts. Holstering and unholstering are probably the best examples. This is not to say that all sweeps during holstering are acceptable. The most common one is people with (IMHO) poor holsters that they need to hold open with the weak hand. That's a sweep and DQ waiting to happen.
Ever wonder why employees at busy public ranges get testy on occasion? That safety violation and accompanying attitude is one example of what they deal with on a regular basis. And the main reason why, after 10+ years, I called it quits. I got tired of having to argue with shooters who didnt think the rules should apply to them.
I was thinking a few months back how working at a local range might be kind of fun for some part-time work. My minimal experience as an RO is making me think that one through a little more.
Fly
-
Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures. I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. ;D
Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me. Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important. My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.
Fly
Do you intend on shooting your house?
-
Do you intend on shooting your house?
Well as I see it, we can either throw out that rule, modify it, or say "Yes...the drywall was an acceptable loss and therefore I can say I intended to shoot it".
Maybe the rule would make more sense if it said...
"Do not point the gun at anything you would not consider an acceptable loss or do not want to kill, maim or cause pain to"
I think that would cover most of my list. Regardless, the intent of the rule is pretty obvious. If there are any doubts, refer to the first rule of gun safety.
Fly
-
Got it. So if the rules of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.
-
Do you intend on shooting your house?
No. But that isn't what the rule says, now does it?
It says (at least the variation that I know and teach) don't point the gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy. When I dryfire, I have a specific area in the house that I use, pointed at a section that if the bullet makes it through the brick, it'll go into dirt. If I put a hole in my bookshelf/wall/dirt, I can live with it. I'm not planning on doing it---but if I make a mistake and break any the safety rules, I willing to accept the destruction of where I'm pointing the gun.
I'd rather it didn't happen---but that's a different case. And your change of "willing to destroy" to "intend to destroy" doesn't work, as that is something else entirely.
Your additional contention of:
So if the first rule of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.
...similarly attempts to change a flat statement into something it doesn't mean.
-
Got it. So if the rules of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.
I don't have a problem with understanding and applying the rule, but it appeared from your statement that you wanted more clarification. The re-write was intended for you so that you could have that more concrete definition that you are seeking.
Please re-read my statement below...
Regardless, the intent of the rule is pretty obvious.
However, I don't imagine that your beliefs on gun handling are that different than mine.
Would you point the gun at yourself? Would you point it at a loved one? Would you point it at your car? Of course not! Whatever form of the rule you want to use ("...intend to..." or "...willing to..."), the intent is the same. Am I willing to ruin my drywall? It's not what I want to do, but if it happens then it is much more acceptable than shooting something important to me. So if we use "intend to", I'm ok with that because otherwise I would not have pointed my firearm at it.
Fly
-
If you have a good holster, you should not sweep yourself. In competition, you need a holster you can reholster with one hand. Not a bad idea for concealed carry either.
-
WOW! This thread quickly turned from a post someone wrote to illustrate a point to the equivalent of a playground fight. :(
Well, since that's the case ... "I''m taking my ball and I'm going home!." :P
-
If you have a good holster, you should not sweep yourself.
Agreed. Regarding my appendix carry that Shawn brought up. I don't holster the gun while sitting, only standing so that pretty much eliminates my sweeps. I don't unholster the gun while I'm sitting either, and probably the only time I would is if I needed the gun. Most of the time I leave the gun in the holster and slide it in my waistband. With a good holster with retention, this keeps the gun secured and the trigger covered. I also watch the hammer for any kind of movement whether I am holstering the gun or sliding the holster+gun inside my waistband.
With my striker fired competition XDm, I put my thumb on the left side of the rear part of the slide (I am right handed). This gets my grip off of the grip safety which will, if it is in good working order, not allow the gun to be fired.
In competition, you need a holster you can reholster with one hand. Not a bad idea for concealed carry either.
Also agree. I don't see any good reason for a holster that has any loose/moving material at the top.
Fly
-
WOW! This thread quickly turned from a post someone wrote to illustrate a point to the equivalent of a playground fight. :(
And I'm not even a redhead. ;D
Fly
-
No. But that isn't what the rule says, now does it?
I agree and even said that earlier.
Would you point the gun at yourself?
Yes I would and I am sure others do as well. When I look down the bore of certain firearms, if I am ever unlucky enough to have to knock out a squib, when I clean the bore of my gun, anytime someone goes to holster or unholser with a dropped/offset holster, and I'm sure there are other normal occurrences that I didnt cover. Now I'm not saying to make it a habit to aim at family members but a little common sense needs to be applied to the rules of firearm safety.
-
Now I'm not saying to make it a habit to aim at family members but a little common sense needs to be applied to the rules of firearm safety.
I don't think anyone here would argue that point with you, and that was SO not the point of this thread.
Fly
-
Agreed. Regarding my appendix carry that Shawn brought up. I don't holster the gun while sitting, only standing so that pretty much eliminates my sweeps. I don't unholster the gun while I'm sitting either, and probably the only time I would is if I needed the gun. Most of the time I leave the gun in the holster and slide it in my waistband. With a good holster with retention, this keeps the gun secured and the trigger covered. I also watch the hammer for any kind of movement whether I am holstering the gun or sliding the holster+gun inside my waistband.
I'll note that as a person who also appendix carries (well, I'm left-handed, so it really isn't appendix carry), the placement of the holster means that I do indeed point the gun at myself more than I'd like when I'm drawing and holstering, if I'm not standing straight up--and I won't necessarily get a chance to choose how I'm standing if I have to draw for self-defense. Therefore I practice from a number of different positions.
As such, I'm even more careful regarding the other rules of safety during those times. It isn't okay that I'm breaking one of the safety rules---it is merely necessary. As such, given the fact that you need to break at least two of the rules to actually damage someone/something, when I am forced to break one rule, I'm even more deliberate about the others. I don't like it--but if I'm going to carry, that's how it has to be.
I'll note that I don't appendix carry for competition. :)
In USPSA, there is a specific rule that talks about sweeping--and makes a special case for situations during drawing and holstering:
"10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for
sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing
or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s
fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception
is only for holstered handguns."
...you'll note that in this case, we see again that it isn't okay to sweep---just sometimes unavoidable. And the rule itself specifically requires more-than-normal adherence to the other rules of gun safety, in a fashion that could potentially reinstate a DQ if the extra-careful adherence is not followed.
Sweep your arm in competition? (For USPSA, Steel Challenge, or Multigun?)
DQ.
And yeah, an amazing number of people have trained themselves to hold the holster with their off hand to ensure that they sweep themselves every time they holster. And almost all of them do NOT have John's excuse. In his case, it was the best choice out of a bunch of bad ones. For most people, though---they simply bought a crappy holster and haven't ingrained enough safety. Seriously, folks, if you plan on doing any shooting at all, spend the $30 on a kydex holster like the Blackhawk CQC (not the SERPA version), a Blade-Tech Revolution, or even an Uncle Mike's holster (not the Reflex, get the standard kydex belt/paddle version).
That's for a basic range holster. You want to work CCW, then get an upgrade from that, AFTER you've trained yourself to handle the gun (draws, holstering, loading, reloading, remedial action, and actual shooting) safely.
-
I don't think anyone here would argue that point with you, and that was SO not the point of this thread.
Fly
I was responding to your subsequent posts
-
I was responding to your subsequent posts
So your point is that there are always exceptions to the rules? If so, I won't argue with that, but there is a huge difference between what the shooter was doing in my example and what you may do during firearm maintenance, dry fire practice, etc with reasonable precautions.
The discussion has progressed from people sweeping themselves with a gun and thinking nothing of it, to pointing a gun at an inanimate object while taking reasonable precautions. I consider these to be mutually exclusive. When you have a situation where you have to break one of the fundamental rules, you take precautions. Hopefully, they are obsessive precautions to make sure there is no bad outcome.
Fly
-
Yes I would and I am sure others do as well. When I look down the bore of certain firearms, if I am ever unlucky enough to have to knock out a squib, when I clean the bore of my gun
Huh. If I ever look down the bore of a pistol, it is because I have taken the barrel out of the gun. As such, I'm not looking down the bore of a gun, I'm looking into a hollow tube.
If it was still in the gun, I wouldn't do it. Why would I need to? If there is a squib in there, that's why I have a squib rod to check. (Actually, I use a plastic wire tie, that way I can check from the chamber end.)
anytime someone goes to holster or unholser with a dropped/offset holster, and I'm sure there are other normal occurrences that I didnt cover. Now I'm not saying to make it a habit to aim at family members but a little common sense needs to be applied to the rules of firearm safety.
What exactly about the topic of this thread wasn't common sense, I wonder?
"Don't point the gun at your arm. When someone tells you that you aren't being safe because you've pointed the gun at yourself, don't be an idiot."
-
So your point is that there are always exceptions to the rules? If so, I won't argue with that, but there is a huge difference between what the shooter was doing in my example and what you may do during firearm maintenance, dry fire practice, etc with reasonable precautions.
The discussion has progressed from people sweeping themselves with a gun and thinking nothing of it, to pointing a gun at an inanimate object while taking reasonable precautions. I consider these to be mutually exclusive. When you have a situation where you have to break one of the fundamental rules, you take precautions. Hopefully, they are obsessive precautions to make sure there is no bad outcome.
Fly
My point was that the rule is silly but it's still a rule that has to be followed. Like I said in my first post. Then you jumped on me saying "ALWAYS treat a gun as if it's loaded." The rest of my posts were in response to that. I was pointing out that it's impossible to do it ALWAYS because certain circumstances dictate it.
Now to why I think it's silly. The gun was just checked for ammo by 2 people, mag is dropped, then hammer is dropped. At that point, to me, it's just a paper weight. Finger outside the trigger guard with no ammo in it, it can't go off. The same way that a gun inside a bag cannot go off with no ammo in it. Yet for some reason the gun in your hand is still "loaded" and the one in your bag is deemed safe. Thats why I said common sense needs to be applied.
-
My point was that the rule is silly but it's still a rule that has to be followed.
{snip}
Now to why I think it's silly. The gun was just checked for ammo by 2 people, mag is dropped, then hammer is dropped. At that point, to me, it's just a paper weight. Finger outside the trigger guard with no ammo in it, it can't go off. The same way that a gun inside a bag cannot go off with no ammo in it. Yet for some reason the gun in your hand is still "loaded" and the one in your bag is deemed safe. Thats why I said common sense needs to be applied.
So---what you are saying is that you have no problem with how you handle a firearm (meaning in your hand) being based only on your knowledge of whether or not it is loaded?
This, by the way, is how many people each year get shot with "unloaded" firearms.
The rule is in place so that no matter what, if you have a gun in your hand, you will treat it the same way every time--with safety. If you have a habit of acting differently "because it is empty" then at some point in time, you will make a mistake in your knowledge of whether or not it is empty. Hopefully that mistake will not be catastrophic.
At USPSA, Steel Challenge, and Multigun matches, that mistake will not be made.
-
Now to why I think it's silly. The gun was just checked for ammo by 2 people, mag is dropped, then hammer is dropped. At that point, to me, it's just a paper weight. Finger outside the trigger guard with no ammo in it, it can't go off. The same way that a gun inside a bag cannot go off with no ammo in it. Yet for some reason the gun in your hand is still "loaded" and the one in your bag is deemed safe. Thats why I said common sense needs to be applied.
I work with people like you. My job is to train and evaluate others in safe compliance with company policy, federal regulations, and aircraft limitations. Inevitably there is that small group of people who think that they should do things a certain way which is contrary to years of evidence which proves them wrong. Comparatively, if you go to any reputable firearms school, I doubt they will consider acceptable what you think is no big deal. On any given day when a person is not fatigued and/or distracted, people can perform reasonably. However, when fatigue, distractions, or other factors come into play, the individuals performance suffers UNLESS they maintain standards.
It is no different with gun handling. The purpose of the rules is not to establish a set of fundamentals that cover all situations and guarantee safety individually. That would be impossible. What each rule does do is put up a wall of swiss cheese, and as you know, swiss cheese has holes. These holes will allow errors through. The hope is that the holes in each of the rules (swiss cheese) never align to allow an error to bypass all layers of cheese. The same was true when I used to instruct in skydiving, and would be true in any higher risk sport...like shooting.
There is a huge difference between a firearm in the hand that is "unloaded" with a trigger finger that can have its own mind and one that is secured in a container. Unless you are talking about throwing the gun in a container with a bunch of loose material and then jostling it around. Personally, I would prefer that the gun were placed in a good holster, but the rules of the Lincoln range do not allow guns to be open carried in holsters.
So in the face of empirical evidence, you will continue to do what you think is reasonable. It does not appear that any common sense in this thread will sway you.
Fly
-
whoa now. You cant work with people like me if you can't understand what I am trying to say. If you read the first line I typed, I said " it's still a rule that has to be followed". Just because I dont agree with the rules, doesnt mean I dont follow them. I dont believe I should be forced to register my handguns with the city of Omaha, but I do it anyway because it's the law. There is a huge difference between ignoring and dis-agreeing.
If you go on to finish reading what I said, I am talking about that specific instance. Not during the course of fire, not dry fire practice on the dog, not any other time. You two are taking my statements and assuming I mean to apply them to every situation.
This, by the way, is how many people each year get shot with "unloaded" firearms.
Can you link me to a story where a competitor finished a run, removed his magazine, cleared his weapon, R/O said he was clear, closed the slide, put the hammer down, then shot themself.
It is no different with gun handling. The purpose of the rules is not to establish a set of fundamentals that cover all situations and guarantee safety individually. That would be impossible. What each rule does do is put up a wall of swiss cheese, and as you know, swiss cheese has holes. These holes will allow errors through. The hope is that the holes in each of the rules (swiss cheese) never align to allow an error to bypass all layers of cheese. The same was true when I used to instruct in skydiving, and would be true in any higher risk sport...like shooting.
Fly
EXACTLY my point. Common sense needs to be applied. If not, you would not be allowed to draw or reholster from a dropped/offset holster because as soon as you do, the gun is pointed at a body part. Or you cant have any cant to your holster as it would break the 180* during draw and reholstering.
Again, I agree with the fact that in any type of USPSA match, it should be a disqualification. It is black and white in the rule book. I am just saying that it is a silly reason for a disqualification.
-
I dont believe I should be forced to register my handguns with the city of Omaha, but I do it anyway because it's the law.
Comparing a regulatory requirement established by anti-gun politicians to rules established after considering the history of gun accidents is hardly relevant. You follow the law because of the potential civil penalties or disobey them to protest them. You follow safety rules because it is the prudent thing to do.
I am just saying that it is a silly reason for a disqualification.
And this is the crux of our disagreement. I say what the shooter did is an unsafe practice, and that a correction from an RO is reason for them to think about their actions. Your contention is that it was not an unsafe act because the gun was "unloaded".
My swiss cheese analogy was a perfect explanation of why you follow, as much as possible, each of the rules all of the time. This means that none of the rules is ever "silly". I don't know your history, but I have considerable experience with "silly" rules, and the results of willful disobedience. Many aviation accidents can be explained by the chain of broken rules interspersed with human errors. Make one mistake...no big deal. Break one rule and combine that with mistakes...this is when accidents happen. So the best and safest practice is to INTENTIONALLY follow all the rules. You will make mistakes, but the facts prove that this is the only way to break the chain of events that lead to an accident.
ETA:
EXACTLY my point. Common sense needs to be applied. If not, you would not be allowed to draw or reholster from a dropped/offset holster because as soon as you do, the gun is pointed at a body part. Or you cant have any cant to your holster as it would break the 180* during draw and reholstering.
I agree that common sense must be applied. Dry fire practice is an example where you may point the gun at something that you really don't want to destroy. This is when you take obsessive precautions to make up for the rule you are violating. However, when you CAN apply the rules you DO...without exception. If that is silly, then my swiss cheese analogy is lost on you.
Fly
-
This, by the way, is how many people each year get shot with "unloaded" firearms.
Can you link me to a story where a competitor finished a run, removed his magazine, cleared his weapon, R/O said he was clear, closed the slide, put the hammer down, then shot themself.
Don't need to. After all, the comment of mine that you quoted was directly after I said: "So---what you are saying is that you have no problem with how you handle a firearm (meaning in your hand) being based only on your knowledge of whether or not it is loaded?" ----and it directly was in response to that.
And again, you seem to be missing the point of the discussion. You seem to feel that you may handle a gun differently based on whether or not you "know" it is unloaded.
I disagree strongly.
Literally, many people get shot each year with guns that were being handled by people who "knew" they are unloaded.
I don't recall anywhere in the normal rules of gun safety a caveat that says "unless, of course, you know they are unloaded." Maybe you use a different set of rules---and that's fine. I'm not in charge of you, nor am I in charge of anyone's private life but my own.
I am happy, however, that in competitions people are required to safely handle firearms at all times, not merely when they think the gun is loaded. (The same is true in any class I teach. Where, I suppose, I AM in charge of other people's lives. And they have to do it my way.)
Everyone is of course able to do things their own way on their own time. But I personally don't particularly want to shoot with someone whose safety behavior is based on whether or not they think the gun is unloaded. If they'd point the gun at themselves, who knows if they'd point it at anyone else? After all, "it is unloaded."
If your response to that is "I wouldn't point it at YOU!" ---why not? You'd point it at yourself. How is it different?
Jonm, you are saying the rule is silly---correct me if I'm wrong here, but the crux of why you think this rule is silly is that numerous people have checked the gun, therefore it must be unloaded, so it is silly to DQ someone for sweeping themselves with an unloaded gun, because it isn't unsafe. Yes?
Here's how I look at that: this person doesn't have sufficient good practice with the rules of safe gun handling to not point the gun at himself. Therefore, we need to stop this person before he shoots himself later during this match/class/practice session.
I don't care if the gun is loaded or not. If you have insufficient muzzle control such that you point it at a human being (whether yourself or others), then you shouldn't be shooting at that time. Go back home and practice safe gun handling before you come back.
You seem to say that the gun being unloaded makes the shooter's actions no longer demonstrative of unsafe gun handling. I disagree. The actions haven't changed. He just was lucky that in this case the gun wasn't loaded and he didn't pull the trigger. So, he didn't break OTHER safe gun handling rules. Just the one about not pointing the gun at himself.
-
Having said all of that -- we NEED MORE RO'S! Anyone who is shooting the matches with the ENPS at ENGC and are not ROs really should take the class.
I see where you're coming from. I don't know if I would be comfortable with being a RO. That being said, I will show up early and help set up; stay late and help tear down; design a stage occasionally; and when competing, help with all the stuff like pasting, painting and resetting targets. :)
-
Through all of this I just keep remembering Nick sweeping Sean with the ketchup bottle a couple of weeks ago and declaring it was "big boy rules".
;D
-
Through all of this I just keep remembering Nick sweeping Sean with the ketchup bottle a couple of weeks ago and declaring it was "big boy rules".
;D
I missed that. Was he DQ'd? He should have been. I don't care if there was ketchup in the bottle or not. ;D
Fly
-
We're just lucky it was a ban-compliant bottle and not one of those evil high capacity assault bottles. It might have gone off on its own and sprayed everyone at the table.
Actually now that I think about it, I think it was Sean who declared it Big Boy Rules. So we probably should have DQ'd both of them and confiscated their burgers.