Man, better not let jthhapkido see this, he would turn green with envy :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
I see another member had some comedic gold there Thomas ;D
One of the most dangerous positions a suspect can assume on the ground is prone with his hands tucked under his body, either at chest or waist level. What’s hidden in those hands? And if it’s a gun, how fast can he twist and shoot if you’re approaching him?
Since its beginning more than 4 years ago, FSRC has conducted a series of ground-breaking time-and-motion studies, documenting the amazing speed with which suspects can attack from a variety of positions—turning and shooting while running, drawing and shooting while seated in a vehicle, and so on.
“The prone study is an important extension of this sequence,” Lewinski explains, “and is expected to further pinpoint the formidable reactionary curve that officers are behind when attempting to prevent or respond to potentially lethal assaults.”
Several months ago Lewinski conducted some rough preliminary testing on prone action times at the FSRC lab at Minnesota State University-Mankato. Role-playing a prone, armed offender with hands tucked under his body, he repeatedly turned to present and fire a gun as if shooting at a contact officer approaching him from the feet or side. A time-coded video camera recorded his movements. You can view a short video clip of the movement here: http://www.forcescience.org/video.html (http://www.forcescience.org/video.html)
The average time it took him to make his threatening moves was “about one-third of a second,” Lewinski says. “This speed would likely be faster than an average cover officer could react and shoot to stop the threat, even if the officer had his gun pointed, his finger on the trigger, and had already made the decision to shoot. In other words, the officer would stand little chance of being able to shoot first.”
All kidding aside, I give the guy credit for at least attempting something unorthodox. But by failing to give any context to the technique it ends up looking a bit silly. But put it in context and shooting to the rear without turning can be a valid drill. So instead of writing a few more pages about how much better our draws look than his lets find something useful from it.
As he has it set up there appears no reason to stand and shoot. With the target at that distance, as JT stated, I would be moving, drawing and shooting, putting as much distance as I could between us. Moving to some type of cover (preferred) or concealment (better than molecules of air).
Moving left, right or at an angle away I dont see how you would get two hands on your gun without turning and moving backwards. Which we know is slower than going forwards and a pretty good way to end up on your rear end and why we practice one handed shooting.
So lets change the drill and give it some context. It could be a hostage situation (I know, no one on here would ever be caught unaware and taken hostage...) You could be standing, kneeling or even prone. Put the bad guy a lot closer, so even if you could move, it will no longer give a tactical advantage. Add a covert draw so the gun is in hand and unseen. Now a quick shot to the rear without turning is something to consider.
This is absolutely quicker than turning and shooting and science will back this up.
The following study was done to examine how quickly a prone suspect could turn and fire on a Police Officer. IMO exactly what we are discussing. Threat to the rear, covert draw, shooting without moving the feet.
Force Science News #113 New Study Explores Threats Posed by Prone Suspects.
http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/113.html (http://www.forcescience.org/fsnews/113.html)QuoteSeveral months ago Lewinski conducted some rough preliminary testing on prone action times at the FSRC lab at Minnesota State University-Mankato. Role-playing a prone, armed offender with hands tucked under his body, he repeatedly turned to present and fire a gun as if shooting at a contact officer approaching him from the feet or side. A time-coded video camera recorded his movements. You can view a short video clip of the movement here: http://www.forcescience.org/video.html (http://www.forcescience.org/video.html)
The average time it took him to make his threatening moves was “about one-third of a second,” Lewinski says. “This speed would likely be faster than an average cover officer could react and shoot to stop the threat, even if the officer had his gun pointed, his finger on the trigger, and had already made the decision to shoot. In other words, the officer would stand little chance of being able to shoot first.”
I learned and practiced a drill similar to this at a Suarez class as a response to being grabbed and choked from the rear. As best as I can describe it you are placed in a rear naked choke by someone who knows what they are doing so you cant turn into it. You dont have time to try strikes to the face or groin, your going to be unconscious in a few seconds. You initially defend it by turning your head and getting a hand on the arm choking you and pulling down. At the same time you draw one handed and either push the muzzle under and through your opposite arm pit to shoot or bring the gun around your primary side till you feel it touch the BG and then fire. We did this multiple times with airsoft on role players and then live fire on mannequins.
As I pointed out earlier...."been there done that" ala Matt Dillon..... :)? ;D
"Shooting to the rear without turning" is of course a valid thing to practice.
You are saying that the best choice is to be facing away from the attacker and running forwards away from the attacker, and firing behind you one-handed as you move? Or are you saying the best choice is to have your head turned toward the attacker as you run with your body forward away from the attacker, firing behind you one-handed as you move?
As opposed to backing away from the attacker shooting two-handed while looking at them?
Again---to clarify here: You are saying we are a hostage, which means there is a gun in our ear, and you are saying that having the gun in hand, performing a quick shot to the rear without moving, is something to consider? Really?
Well, first I'd really like to see that movement and shot at full-speed, because the idea that sequence averaged a 1/3 of a second seems---optimistic, to me. But hey, we can't tell from that video.
"Hey, let's start a thread on how to effectively shoot to the rear without turning."
If someone is attempting to promulgate technique that is bad, it needs to be said.
If, then, someone wants to say "Hey, here's something that WOULD work!" that's great---it can start a good discussion that can be useful to people..
However, starting by telling adults how to act (that they aren't behaving) is---nonsense
Why shoot across your body under your weak-side arm? Why not shoot back from your strong-side, at approximately pelvis-level? If you shoot across your body, the attacker better be on that side otherwise you might not be able to actually reach far enough.We did both. Depending on how you end up in relation to your attacker one side is going to offer a better shot than the other. When doing this drill with live people the strong side shot wasnt always there. Go figure.
I also note that I disagree with this statement: "You dont have time to try strikes to the face or groin, your going to be unconscious in a few seconds" particularly with regard to it being a justification for immediately going for a gun.
I'm not saying that going for a gun is always wrong. However, thinking "sunken choke = nothing to do but go for the gun" is just incorrect.
Tim, in your honor, we'll all be trying this at the next Blacker Ops seminar. (Actually, no we won't because oddly enough I'm a little against people sweeping half the state when they draw.)
You should have just stopped there.Nope. Why would I want to do that, when I could instead comment more and then watch you take things out of context while mischaracterizing what I've said?
Im saying the best choice is the one that makes you the harder target. Distance will favor the trained shooter. So, yes, that means moving forward at an angle, at maximum speed and shooting with one hand looking at the threat when you need to. Could I trip and fall forward? Sure. But I believe there is less of a chance falling moving forward than back.
Are you advocating two handed shooting while moving backwards?
Never said the gun was in your ear. BG is too close for movement to be effective but to far away to be touched. Obviously if a gun were "in my ear" I would have a different response.
Those were the results of the initial study. Are you saying their timing equipment was faulty?
Just did.
But its okay for you to tell me what I should do? Double nonsense!!
We did both. Depending on how you end up in relation to your attacker one side is going to offer a better shot than the other. When doing this drill with live people the strong side shot wasnt always there. Go figure.
Someone choking me from behind will get an immediate deadly force response with whatever weapon I have available.