NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Firearms Training and Education => Topic started by: SemperFiGuy on May 04, 2014, 09:34:48 AM
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So---I'm going to Avondale, CO next month to attend a Glock Instructor's Workshop. (Thanks to Gary for putting me on to it.) Handguns, of course. Three (3) days.
The IW instructors will take one look at my handgun grip and try to change it.
Because: I use a left-thumb-on-top-of-right-thumb-lockdown-grip. Such grip locks the right hand grip down even more strongly than the right hand can do alone. Keeps the left thumb away from the trigger and interference w/the trigger finger. And a coupla more things.
For whatever reason(s), most shooting clinic instructors seem to prefer (a) parallel-thumbs-pointing downrange or (b) both thumbs pointing straight up. Especially for semiautomatic handguns. I get challenged on this issue frequently.
Question to this Forum's Serious, Experienced, Hard-core Handgun Shooters (IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, Trainers, 10000 Rounds-Per-Year Types Who Know What They Are Doing):
Where Do You Put Your Thumbs When Shooting?? And--importantly--Why??
Wondering.................
sfg
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I tend to use the same grip as yours. The Crossed over thumb, because I seem to be more accurate (read less "steer").
BUT I tend to instruct with the stacked thumbs.
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There is always more than one way to do anything. This is a pretty detailed explanation of what works for me.
http://youtu.be/MY6gwhj5qpY (http://youtu.be/MY6gwhj5qpY)
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You guys are doing it all wrong. Just watch this video, this is all the instruction you'll ever need.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDnEkFSMRik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDnEkFSMRik#ws)
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Grabbing his package, with pink ear protection, does not work for me. lol
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Will they suggest changing your grip? Will they work on stance? This class we are taking, is a big mystery. I have threads on major forums, asking questions about this class, and everyone is hush hush about it. I would think we were joining Skull and Bones, or becoming a 32nd degree Mason, or something.
There are hundreds of videos on how to open a car door with a tennis ball, but not a single you tube video about this class, except one rapper I don't take seriously.
The grip, I would think about keeping what works for you, as long as it is safe. The grip everyone teaches today, with both thumbs pointing towards the target, will be outdated in five years, and "THEY" will be teaching something else.
Keeping new thumbs from behind the slide, is the only grip that concerns me as an instructor.
Remember, what works well for target practice, or competition, with 10" barrels, and optics, is not Concealed Carry, or a typical day with a Glock pulled from a holster. Glock shooting, is about safely shooting center mass, and stopping a threat. If you can do that, thumbs as they are, is that a bad thing?
One thing I hope to do, is learn something in this class. Maybe several things, if I am lucky. Maybe we will all learn new grips, new stances, new lots of things. For the cost of the class, ammo, and time off work, I hope we do.
Here is James Yeager, giving advice on how to take a gun class. He is a pill, but he is experienced and knowledgeable. His attitude, and foul mouth, is unnecessary, but if you look past that, he does have some good pointers about taking gun classes.
http://youtu.be/VcGXf3Zi-VM (http://youtu.be/VcGXf3Zi-VM)
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So---I'm going to Avondale, CO next month to attend a Glock Instructor's Workshop. (Thanks to Gary for putting me on to it.) Handguns, of course. Three (3) days.
The IW instructors will take one look at my handgun grip and try to change it.
Because: I use a left-thumb-on-top-of-right-thumb-lockdown-grip. Such grip locks the right hand grip down even more strongly than the right hand can do alone. Keeps the left thumb away from the trigger and interference w/the trigger finger. And a coupla more things.
For whatever reason(s), most shooting clinic instructors seem to prefer (a) parallel-thumbs-pointing downrange or (b) both thumbs pointing straight up. Especially for semiautomatic handguns. I get challenged on this issue frequently.
Question to this Forum's Serious, Experienced, Hard-core Handgun Shooters (IDPA, IPSC, USPSA, Trainers, 10000 Rounds-Per-Year Types Who Know What They Are Doing):
Where Do You Put Your Thumbs When Shooting?? And--importantly--Why??
Wondering.................
sfg
Well, I am none of those things you mentioned but that's because ammo became expensive & then scarce. However, that is the same grip I use as well. I have had good accuracy & reliability with it. I used to set up clays on the berm at 10 paces +\- and bust them regularly wih one shot.
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WARNING: Book-length diatribe.
Remember, what works well for target practice, or competition, with 10" barrels, and optics, is not Concealed Carry, or a typical day with a Glock pulled from a holster. Glock shooting, is about safely shooting center mass, and stopping a threat. If you can do that, thumbs as they are, is that a bad thing?
Right, right, because competition shooting is all about guns with 10" barrels and optics. We don't pull Glocks from holsters at all.
Oh wait....yes we do. Matter of fact, we pull Glocks from holsters that resemble quite well the guns that people carry concealed. And M&Ps, and XDMs, and occasionally even a regular ole Colt .45.
(Who the heck uses a 10" barrel in any pistol competition that requires speed? Seriously?)
Repeating:
Glock shooting, is about safely shooting center mass, and stopping a threat.
----right, because in competition people don't try to be accurate, and practicing to stop a threat by shooting center mass is a function that only works when people practice shooting a gun outside of competition.
Oh wait, that isn't right either. (Especially since center-mass isn't an optimal aiming point, because it is too low.)
If you want to be able to most effectively defend yourself, then one assumes that you want to be able to put accurate rounds on target as quickly as possible . While there is no One True Way that works most optimally for all, it is CERTAINLY true that there are a number of ways that are demonstrably bad choices.
So no, I don't agree with: "If you can do that, thumbs as they are, is that a bad thing?"
....because since most people won't know if their "as they are" grip will work until they need it most, going with grips that are known to be non-optimal, or even more empirically, going with a grip that you haven't tested for speed/accuracy versus other grips, is NOT an optimal way to learn to defend yourself.
And most people really do NOT know what "good enough" is.*
From my perspective:
Putting the weak-hand thumb over the strong-hand thumb does several things. 1) It takes your weak hand and creates a gap between it and much of the grip. 2) It changes the angle of the weak-hand wrist such that it creates less pressure forward to counteract muzzle flip, and 3) it often makes the person holding the gun attempt to "steer" it with that hand, where pressure downward does nothing to help control the handgun, and pressure inwards at that point is less consistent than if the hand was along the grip under the strong-hand thumb.
Every single person I know who shoots both quickly and accurately with a semi-auto pistol (note: my comments above are for semi-autos, not revolvers) either already shoots with the weak-hand thumb under the strong-hand thumb, or when switching from another grip, found that they could be both faster and more accurate due to increased recoil control with the thumbs forward grip.
I will say that is based on people attempting to be accurate at speed. For people doing slow fire(effectively, anything slower than roughly 1 shot per second), any grip that allows you to stabilize the grip works, including the weak-hand thumb being on top. (Since anything but minimal recoil control at that speed really doesn't matter.)
YMMV.
I'd also say that learning speed and accuracy from Pincus, who doesn't ever run a diagnostic on his students, doesn't track changes in their speed and accuracy, has no actual data backing his teaching methods, and has said for the record that he doesn't care how well his instructors shoot, is not an optimal choice. Even if he says something that seems to make sense, checking it with a competent instructor first would be a good idea. Matter of fact, I hope that the the thumbnail picture on his video is supposed to be an example of a poor grip, because it certainly is one.
*What is "good enough"? Well, that depends. Are you just wanting to be able to be safe? Hold the gun however you like, it isn't particularly relevant. Do you just want to be accurate? You should be practicing bullseye shooting. Do you want to be effective at self-defense? Then you'd better be learning how to be efficient, which means finding the easiest way to be both fast and accurate.
Want to find out if you are fast and accurate? Come shoot the Man vs Man match at ENGC in two weeks.
(Info here: http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,11716.0.html (http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/index.php/topic,11716.0.html) )
You can find out right away. It is all about getting accurate shots on target faster than the other guy. That's it---can you hit what you need to hit faster than the guy trying to beat you. (Other than actually being harmed, how much more like self-defense can you get in terms of skills?)
Before anyone says "It won't be fair because they'll be using RACE GUNS!" people should probably know that most of us shoot Production, and the guns we use really are pretty much like our carry guns. That excuse simply won't hold up. Especially since the Open pistols shoot separately from the rest of us.
Back to the original point: For slow fire, hold it however you like. For accurate rapid fire---grip matters in a significant way.
For the record, a couple of years ago I went to the Rogers Shooting School, known for being one of the most difficult military and law enforcement shooting skills schools in the nation, with one of the most difficult skills tests in the world, including using cover, SHO, WHO, draws, reloading (including reloading using only one hand), to test my shooting skills in a known law enforcement/military/tactical setting.
At Rogers, each student takes the qualification test 6 times throughout the week-long class. A Basic rating is achieved at 70 points (out of 125). The Advanced rating is achieved at 110 points. The average for most classes for the first classifier test attempt is 37---and I scored 109 on my first attempt. I then scored Advanced on all five further attempts during the course. I also had the high score for the course.
I'm not mentioning this for advertising purposes, I'm mentioning this because I'm tired of people pulling the "that's competition only" card, which is nonsense. Bill Rogers has trained more high-level military and law enforcement folks than pretty much anyone else in the nation. (As part of that, he explains why he teaches what he does, and he also teaches the thumbs-forward grip.) Amazingly enough, the shooting skills I use in competition work perfectly well as shooting skills (for fast, accurate shooting) in every other aspect, too.
Grip DOES make a difference, if you want to be fast and accurate. Is a standardized thumbs-forward grip optimal for everyone? No---but is a version of a thumbs-forward grip the best choice for most people?
IMO, demonstrably yes.
If someone says differently, something to ask is: What do you consider fast, accurate shooting?
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Thanks for that post. Next time we do a post on attitude, I hope you participate.
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Thanks for that post. Next time we do a post on attitude, I hope you participate.
Are you saying you don't have anything to contribute regarding your original assertions, and my counterpoints?
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Before anyone says "It won't be fair because they'll be using RACE GUNS!" people should probably know that most of us shoot Production, and the guns we use really are pretty much like our carry guns. That excuse simply won't hold up. Especially since the Open pistols shoot separately from the rest of us.
I shoot my carry gun. :o
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This guy has a humble demeanor, much easier to learn from, than the James Yeager, I been to hell and back types.
http://youtu.be/KJrA7wMXuuQ (http://youtu.be/KJrA7wMXuuQ)
I sail. I own two 32' ocean going sailboats, imported them to Nebraska. I sail at Branched Oak lake. This year, I am so busy, I pulled my boats, and sitting out the season.
On the docks, we always have the upper crust, folks that think they are the James Yeager of the sailing world. Lots of theories, old stories about the big winds they sailed through, once upon a time. However, when the winds hit 10mph, they were always the first ones off the lake, and needed help getting their sailboats back into their slip. These folks know one knot from another, but getting the knot from their head, to the line, while the wind is blowing, is two different things.
The stories of sailing from these people, make it seem like sailing would be easy, and their inspiration to others, may have beginner sailors, end up on the rocks, in a blow. Most every year, someone dies at BOL, because their expectations, far exceeded their talent, or the luck of the draw. Life is not always fair.
Because I own two ocean going, proven sailboats, that does not qualify me as ocean going sailboat captain.
I think one very important factor for any instructor, is a vast degree of humbleness. I don't care if it is sailing, concealed carry, flying, scuba diving, driving a car, or judo, if an instructor, does the James Yeager strut, it shows his field of vision, is pretty narrow. Narrow minded instructors, hurt people.
I posted the Yeager video, because he does go into some good points, points I will take to my Glock class. I will however, not take his (my sh(t don't stink) attitude. (cause it does)
The hat motto on most every NRA Instructor cap, gets it 100% right.
Knowledge, Skills, Attitude.
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Does anyone know what time it is?
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Gary, has it also ever occurred to you that people who enjoy shooting competitions think you have an attitude because you denigrate something they enjoy, using words that show you don't actually understand what you are talking about?
Yep, Shannon Smith is a good guy. Former military, current competition shooter and instructor. Gives great props to the competition shooters that taught him how to shoot better while he was in the military. I met him when he won USPSA Limited Nationals a couple of years ago, and I've corresponded with him via email several times.
He doesn't bag on competition shooting at all. Then again, he understands it.
I'm going to ignore the rest of what you said, as you not-so-subtly attempt to in some way insult folks. (As you generally do with people who disagree with you.)
In the future, when you discuss competition shooting, you might first learn about it so that you can discuss it appropriately---instead of insulting the people who participate in it.
I note also that discussion works better if you actually discuss the topic at hand. I ask again, if you have any discussion to add regarding the grip topic points I mentioned? If you want to help others, AND you think that you have something valuable to say regarding gun handling skills, then you should probably say it.
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I shoot my carry gun. :o
My current carry gun is one I used in competition shooting for several years. My current competition gun is effectively the same gun with a longer barrel.
:)
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This video does a pretty good explanation of one way to grip a firearm, that works well for him, but notice, he has comments turned off, because why? Most likely, because his attitude is James Yeager esk. lol
If the meek are going to inherit the world, it will be after the arrogant bozos have trashed the place. lol
http://youtu.be/4a-bFZQPvpI (http://youtu.be/4a-bFZQPvpI)
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On the subject of Glock, pertaining to grip, why does Glock have the trigger guard, shaped the way they do?
I have asked that question before, but I have never gotten what I feel, is a satisfactory answer.
I am guessing it has something to do with the support hand holding a tool. (flashlight, shovel, radio, knife, etc.) and the gun is pressed into the bone of the support arm.
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This instructor does a good job of showing, through live fire, what his technique is for handgun grip.
If I would fault him at anything, it would be muzzle control, at the camera. As he has no camera person, I am assuming, no persons were harmed in the making of this video, however, I personally think, one should not sweep a camera, as it lowers the level of what is acceptable. Hard to find you tube instruction videos, where everything is perfect.
http://youtu.be/5iQb8j_hXnM (http://youtu.be/5iQb8j_hXnM)
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This video above, goes into detail, on why shooting with one hand is not prudent. In the video below, Lenny Mcgill says why one handed shooting, for protection is preferred.
In the end, both guys are correct, and both guys are wrong. It is what you choose to master, and the degree you practice, what you seek, that boils down to success, or failure.
http://youtu.be/uaKbhcI8rqA (http://youtu.be/uaKbhcI8rqA)
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Here is a video, where hickok45 says how NOT to shoot with your support thumb.
Watch the video, and notice how he implies he shoots with his support thumb, covering his right thumb?
Most people would be more than happy, to shoot as well as he does.
(for the squeamish at heart, one hot dog is decapitated in the making of this video)
http://youtu.be/r573VYk88eM (http://youtu.be/r573VYk88eM)
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The class next month, is a Instructors Workshop put on by Glock. It is a three day ish class, that will have each student shooting 1,000 rounds from their Glock pistol.
The class break down is at this link. It should be interesting. I was scheduled to attend that class, but moved it to a later date this fall. That will be good for me, as I know someone taking this class.
https://www.glocktraining.com/files/IW_Course.pdf (https://www.glocktraining.com/files/IW_Course.pdf)
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Well, responses to the original post here have been both instructive and informative.
Shows the value of laying out issues for other folks to consider, review, and comment. Got lotsa good insights and viewpoints. Videos were especially helpful.
After hearing the responses, I went back and got out the Glock 23 for a fondling and gripping session. Tried the Two-Thumbs Downrange approach once again, this time in the light of the posting comments.
Gained some new ways of looking at an old technique.
Such that I'm gonna try TTD for a few range sessions and see how it works out. One new insight: TTD might just keep the trigger finger from pushing the handgun to the left a bit better than my present grip.
We'll see. Truth is revealed on the range.
Thanks, All Who Commented.
sfg
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BTW: Thanks to those Waggish Forum Members who, in response to this question:
Handgunners: Where Are Your Thumbs??
Might have said:
"In the usual place: Attached to the ends of my hands."
I had expected some such responses.
Your forbearance has been notable.
sfg
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As a relative newbie to action pistol shooting I found that when I switched to a thumbs-forward grip I was better able to control the gun. Followup shots were faster and more accurate, which IMO is plenty important whether you're talking about competition or self defense shooting. I used to place my support hand thumb over the strong hand one, just because I had no training and didn't know enough to try any other way. Now that I switched it feels much more natural.
Of course, when the buzzer goes off my mind goes blank and I still have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. :)
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As the instructor told our class about grip as he prepared to teach us a handgun fundamentals, and I'm paraphrasing to the best of my memory...
The grip I'm going to teach may be completely different than the one you currently use, but just give it a chance. Every advanced school, police force, military and world class competitor uses this grip.
I can't say what grip I was using before the class. It may have been a modified thumbs foreword grip, but once I embraced the full thumbs forward, my accuracy and speed improved considerably. I'm confident I could not get to my current abilities with another grip.
Regarding competition. I know that jthhapkido will tell you that being a competitor will not make you an "Operator", but in lieu of testing such things on a battlefield, what better environment to test firearm techniques? In competition, speed and accuracy are king. You will likely need to shoot from all different angles and positions, similar to what is demanded of you in battle. I should also note that the Army sends competitors to USPSA and multi-gun competitions, and they use the same thumbs forward pistol grip.
Fly
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On the subject of Glock, pertaining to grip, why does Glock have the trigger guard, shaped the way they do?
I have asked that question before, but I have never gotten what I feel, is a satisfactory answer.
I am guessing it has something to do with the support hand holding a tool. (flashlight, shovel, radio, knife, etc.) and the gun is pressed into the bone of the support arm.
A number of firearms have similarly-shaped trigger guards. I find the extended point of the trigger guard makes an excellent striking tool in CQB. I'm not sure if that's the reason for the design or not.
Here's my $0.02 on grip in self-defense situations. It's a lot like stance in self-defense situations. Both will, in all probability, be less than optimal. Your muscle memory will kick in to a certain extent, but there will be a few other things going on during the firing of those muscle memory neurons that may cause a disruption.
With that said, one should remain open-minded and be open to instruction from others - even others one might consider less experienced. You never know when you might learn something beneficial.
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I am getting old. The squared off trigger guard was first developed to aid in the "finger forward" hold used by some of the first IPSC shooters. This type of hold was considered better than the old one handed hold. The weaver and isosceles pretty much ended the use in competition (but was still available). Now some people use it for a push forward rest in a barricade situation and other things.
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With that said, one should remain open-minded and be open to instruction from others - even others one might consider less experienced. You never know when you might learn something beneficial.
A great poem, says the same thing.
(http://katieleigh.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/desiderata.jpg)
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BTW: Thanks to those Waggish Forum Members who, in response to this question:
Handgunners: Where Are Your Thumbs??
Might have said:
"In the usual place: Attached to the ends of my hands."
I had expected some such responses.
Your forbearance has been notable.
sfg
sfg, it was really difficult to retrain myself. :laugh:
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Of course, when the buzzer goes off my mind goes blank and I still have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. :)
Hey, I resemble that remark! :laugh:
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[quote]sfg, it was really difficult to retrain myself.[/quote]
Pity.
You shoulda dunnit.
Your Boyish Exuberance has always been one of your Greatest Charms. (Yes....I've been talking to your teachers.)
sfg