NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: Hoot on June 14, 2014, 08:15:36 PM
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I was stopped today by a city police officer and issued a ticket for speeding. I have a concealed carry permit but I was not carrying at the time of the traffic stop. When the officer asked me to sign the ticket, he said he noticed I had a CCW permit and he wanted to know if I was carrying. I replied no and told him I knew that if I was carrying, I am required to notify him in the state of Nebraska. Does anyone know if it is common practice for law enforcement to ask this?
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Haven't heard of any LEO asking a non-notifying CHP holder about presence of a handgun, such as you described. However, certainly could happen, as in your case.
As you indicate, notification isn't required in Nebraska when not packing. However, many non-packing CHP holders will still voluntarily notify the LEO up front as a courtesy that they are not packing simply to clarify the situation and avoid possible complications during the traffic stop.
Interesting YouTube Video:
LEO stops a citizen in another state who is packing. Citizen tries to tell LEO about handgun; LEO screams (in effect) "SHADDUP!!!!".
Then LEO goes absolutely total freak-out ballistic when he learns of the handgun.
Worth a look.
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Interesting YouTube Video:
Worth a look.
So...wanna share a link or title or something....
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SS_N_NE:
Yeah, Good Point.
I sorta left it all hanging there. And knew I'd dunnit.
So--later went looking for that particular video and didn't find that particular one in the time available on this particular holiday.
But....No Biggie.
As an alternative, simply Google <Crazy LEOs>. Which will be a very sobering set of views, indeed. No intent here to smear good cops as being "crazy". Not at all. But what comes up in response to that search string will give us all a new perspective on the Mean Streets portion of the justice system.
In the meantime, I'll try to find the original video. It's really scary. Those folks have handguns, ARs, shotguns, pepper spray, mace, handcuffs, tasers.....all that.
When their Protect and Serve attitude goes to hell, the citizen is in serious jeopardy.
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OK............a little more search found this Little Gem.
Dash Cam: Canton PD "Notification" Arrest & Officer Goes Berserk / Threatens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kassP7zI0qc#ws)
It speaks--shouts, actually--all by itself.
Wouldn't want to have been the subject of all that focused attention.
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Here's Another One:
FL Deputy Threatens to Shoot Concealed Carry Licensee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2tOEPURTqc#)
Traffic stops involving concealed carry do not always follow the nice, polite steps discussed in Massad Ayoob's video on how to handle a traffic stop.
Notice in both videos the LEOs have basically threatened to gun down the concealed carry permit holder.
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The Canton LEO in the video was fired ... IMHO this nut job should have never been allowed to carry for a living or even own a firearm and it is fortunate no one was killed in one of his fits of rage
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Another interesting aspect of these videos is that the LEOs seem to consider state-issued lawful concealed carry permits as being at about the same level of validity as Confederate money.
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Cop videos! Sweet!
This one is a retired sheriff, who assumed the new deputy would recognize the retired old guy, which he did not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSL23-fgghU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSL23-fgghU)
http://youtu.be/LSL23-fgghU (http://youtu.be/LSL23-fgghU)
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So anyway, no, it's not unusual for the LEO to ask if you're carrying after running the paperwork. They find out.
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The Canton LEO (Dan Harliss), was fired, appealed his firing and won reinstatement. At this time he did not ask to be reinstated. The arbitrator stated in his written opinion "“What needs to be understood is (there’s) no rule that says an officer (cannot) or should not make threats,” Harliss did not ask for reinstatement. He is receiving workman's compensation and a disability retirement.
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He is receiving workman's compensation and a disability retirement.
"Wow"....... all I can say is "Wow"......
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Wonder how much money would be my pocket if I was not putting out for bogus comp and disability.
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New company provided lease vehicle, none of my information is on the registration or plate. I like it, I luv it, I want some more of it.
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If it is a company leased vehicle, make sure you know the company policy concerning firearms and their leased vehicles if they have one.
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David what does it matter that none of your information is on the registration or plate? If this is in reference to CHP, recall this is tied to your Operators License.....
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I got stopped about 2 weeks ago because of no tail lights after dark (weird car, headlights come on automatically but not the tail lights). The cop was pretty nice about it and was standing right next to me as he was having his dispatch run my drivers license. At the end of the transmission from dispatch she informed him I had a CCW. I was not carrying at the time so I didnt notify him, but when I heard the notification from the dispatcher I told him that yes I had a CCW but was not carrying. I turned on the tail lights (stupid car) and that was the end of the contact. Well, I did tell him that if I had been carrying that notification would have been the first words out of my mouth, we both had a chuckle over that.
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I heard today that a local LEO told a local Firearms Group that it is MANDATORY that you disclose you CCW right away, whether or not you are carrying at the time.
I know we all have differing opinions on this. I for one let them know either way, just to not have any hassle. BUT does the law state as such? Maybe we should get a opinion from the AG? settle this once and for all?
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I heard today that a local LEO told a local Firearms Group that it is MANDATORY that you disclose you CCW right away, whether or not you are carrying at the time.
I know we all have differing opinions on this. I for one let them know either way, just to not have any hassle. BUT does the law state as such? Maybe we should get a opinion from the AG? settle this once and for all?
Not needed in my opinion, the statute is pretty clear. Seems some LEO's need some training on the laws.
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No AG opinion needed. The statute is clear..carrying = must notify. ..not carrying = not required to. ..take home message ....never ask a cop about the law especially an ignorant (dictionary definition) one...
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Would this, per chance, be the officer who spoke to the Well Armed Woman group last night?
I heard today that a local LEO told a local Firearms Group that it is MANDATORY that you disclose you CCW right away, whether or not you are carrying at the time.
I know we all have differing opinions on this. I for one let them know either way, just to not have any hassle. BUT does the law state as such? Maybe we should get a opinion from the AG? settle this once and for all?
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Maybe.. my source wishes to remain anonymous, so..
Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2
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I suggest that the group call out the LEO... send him a bunch of emails and tell him he needs to get trained up
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Opinion: in a traffic stop, there is a magical point where the officer is on the fence as to whether he likes you or not. He hits you with buzz word tests to compartmentalize you into nice neat mental boxes.
Once you fail one test, no matter how small, you are on his ticket book, and not on his warning book, or verbal warning book.
One thing that gets tested is honestly and beyond that, openness.
If you have a CHP, and do not desclose that in the first chat moments, carrying or not, you go from the on the fence area, to someone that does not disclose things.
It is your right to not disclose a CHP permit if you have no gun concealed on your person, but it his his right to give you a deserved ticket if you have one coming.
I think if a person goes out of their way to work with LEOs, they will be willing to work with us. In this case, the OP got a ticket, and I would suggest this is going to be the usual outcome of not volunteering the CHP.
The officers have a hard job, and if we make them feel a bit more at ease, it is better for them, and us. Showing your CHP, instantly lets them know you have passed an FBI background check and should be no threat to their safety.
Each officer has a family, and at the end of a shift, they want to go home to them. Your CHP permit takes stress out of the traffic stop, and makes their job easier.
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Showing your CHP, instantly lets them know you have passed an FBI background check and should be no threat to their safety.
I would have to disagree. If the LEO finds out through their dispatch that you have a CHP, are you NOW considered a threat? How does notifying the LEO even if not carrying change a person's honesty, or the fact that they went through an FBI background check? Either way, that person is a law abiding citizen. If they inquire as to whether you are carrying, a polite "No sir/ma'am/officer. I know that if I am carrying, I am obligated to inform you, and I definitely would do that." should suffice. If a LEO finds out that you have a CHP and have jumped through all the hoops an individual is required to just so they can exercise this constitutional right, why would this give them cause to be uncomfortable. If this is the mindset they have, then they need some reeducation.
If the difference of getting a ticket or a warning is not following the law, but living by their personal standards, then the problem is not us. It is how they look at us.
Your CHP permit takes stress out of the traffic stop, and makes their job easier.
I don't think this statement is false, but how we are treated shouldn't change due to the manner in which they find out we have a CHP.
Fly
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I heard today that a local LEO told a local Firearms Group that it is MANDATORY that you disclose you CCW right away, whether or not you are carrying at the time.
Who said that, and to whom? (edited to add: Just saw that you don't want to say. That's fine, but....) .....that firearms group should send a polite but clear letter to that LEO's department about making sure that their officers know the requirements of the law.
Because we, as CCW permit holders, DO know the requirements of the law. And apparently that particular LEO doesn't. If that belief exists throughout that department, that may cause a problem---and the LEO is wrong.
As in "if the LEO uses that incorrect belief to escalate a situation, they will be in the wrong, and not only will that reflect badly on their department, but it opens that department to civil suits" sort of wrong.
And if that firearms group you mentioned is taking that particular LEO's word as gospel truth, they should be informed that not only is that person incorrect, but it casts into doubt other things they might have said. (If they are wrong about something so straightforward and well-known, how correct are they about other things?)
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I've decided to take down my original post since I don't have proof of what the instructor said. I'm sure plenty of my students have walked away and not heard what I wanted them to hear.
I get the "it's a good idea to inform either way" and I tell my CHP students that it my *opinion* It would be incorrect to tell a group that informing is required even if not carrying... If indeed that is what happened.
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IF this is the group and meeting, HE of all people should know better.... I may have to give him the benefit of the doubt and he was misunderstood. ..especially since he too is a CHP instructor. ..
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IF this is the group and meeting, HE of all people should know better.... I may have to give him the benefit of the doubt and he was misunderstood. ..especially since he too is a CHP instructor. ..
Personally, I don't think an attack via email bomb is appropriate at this juncture. Maybe someone on the NFOA board with an official sounding title could contact the person of interest and ask for clarification. If they support their belief of this misinformation, then maybe more drastic measures are called for.
Fly
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^ Rod? ;)
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^ Rod? ;)
Now WHY didn't I think of that. ;)
Fly
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This sounds like a lot of he said she said. If this is just being taken as hearsay from one person, could they have misinterpreted what was presented? There is a lot of information missing. Since the source does not want to be identified perhaps NeBull you can seek clarification directly from the source instead of speculating. You know what happens when we ass u me..
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Opinion: in a traffic stop, there is a magical point where the officer is on the fence as to whether he likes you or not.
I am glad it is only your opinion. It has nothing to do with like or hate. It has everything to do with public safety.
Most Peace Officers (and some have been trained to) have their mind made up before exiting the patrol vehicle whether it will be a ticket, written warning or verbal warning for the infraction that required the stop.
The buzz word tests as you refer to them are an investigate technique designed to illicit information that may indicate other crimes; DUI, Minor in Possession, etc...
I think if a person goes out of their way to work with LEOs, they will be willing to work with us.
I didn't pull you over to work with you. Or become best buds. Or swap spit in the shower. I initiated contact because you were in violation of a motor vehicle violation. I have a job to do. I will be professional and I will treat everyone exactly the same whether I let them off with a verbal warning or whether I have to hook them up (cuff) and transport them to jail for a more serious crime.
If it is obvious that you are going out of your way to make me happy will have me wondering what you could be trying to divert my attention from.
Your CHP permit takes stress out of the traffic stop, and makes their job easier.
B.S. I don't know where you got that from but you could not be more wrong. I don't think you have any idea about the dynamics of a traffic stop from a trained Peace Officers point of view.
If I pull an off-duty officer over for DUI am I suppose to lower my guard when I find out he is a fellow officer? If I pull a vehicle over and the driver is an elderly woman am I suppose to lower my guard?
I can guarantee that every officer I know including myself will be in condition orange until the stop has been completed and you have departed the scene.
There is absolutely nothing you can do or say that will take the stress out of the stop or make my job easier.
You are right about one thing though; I want to go home at the end of my shift so whether you have a CCW, have gang tattoos or are wearing a priests collar you will be treated just like everyone else for the duration of the contact.
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Showing your CHP, instantly lets them know you have passed an FBI background check and should be no threat to their safety.
Just like taking tests in school/college or driving exams....people can pass these things and the basic facts were good at the time. Time passes quickly. Proof of that is that we have a lot of idiots running around regardless of their education and we have a shipload of bad drivers on the road. Whose to know the current state of mind with any CHP holder on any given day? For LEOs (including those who live in Mayberry), the guard should never go down.
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For those of you that are not familiar with the dynamics of a traffic stop from the other side of the badge I hope you will find this enlightening.
http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2012/11/traffic-stops.aspx (http://www.policemag.com/channel/careers-training/articles/2012/11/traffic-stops.aspx)
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There are apx 500 police officers killed in the line of duty each year. The number is higher, sorry I do not remember the exact annual average.
How many of these murders are part of a traffic stop and the outcome was not anticipated at the start of the traffic stop ?
Now, how many of these murders of LEOs were by licenced CHP holders?
From 1996 to date, I think the number of police officers killed by CHP holders is 14. Was the last time I looked it up.
So, as a group, on average, CHP holders are not usualy a threat to LE.
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The below is not particularly relevant to this actual discussion, as the discussion assume a number of things about the LEO's state of mind, which in general, is not something you know.
However, I'm curious:
From 1996 to date, I think the number of police officers killed by CHP holders is 14. Was the last time I looked it up.
Citation? Where did you get this information?
I'll note that the only listing of "14" I can find is from the Violence Policy Center, a notorious anti-gun think tank. And their listing of 14 is inaccurate as it includes cases where there has been no conviction.
In a number of the cases where there was a conviction, it was for various versions of manslaughter, which is a very different situation than murder. Doesn't change the fact that an LEO was still killed, but it is rather different than VPC's contention that CCW holders murder LEOs.
And lastly, a number of those that were actual murders had nothing to do with concealed carry---the person just happened to also have a CCW permit, which had nothing to do with the crime itself. However, since it supports the "concealed carry killers" narrative of the VPC, they include them.
(Oh, the VPC also includes includes cases where the criminal shouldn't have legally had a CCW permit in the first place, too.)
Main part of my point: As almost none of these cases occurred in a traffic stop, I'm really not thinking it makes any difference to LEO's attitude about CCW permit holders during traffic stops.
Far as I can tell, only three of the cases were a murder that occurred with a concealed firearm.
Here's the VPC link: http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf (http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwlawenforcement.pdf)
Is this where you got your information?
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So, as a group, on average, CHP holders are not usualy a threat to LE.
True, I agree completely.
The point I am making is having a CHP will not make a Peace Officer all warm and fuzzy as you suggest.
Yes, you have a CHP that was issued a year ago, two, four years ago. How do I know in that time you haven't committed any crimes that you haven't been caught for yet and when I pull you over you think the hammer is finally going to drop on your misdeeds because I lit you up.
It doesn't matter who you are or what permits you have, what collar you are wearing, or what tattoos you have, From the time I light you up until you depart the scene I will courteously and professionally treat everyone the same from awareness level "condition orange" until you have left the scene.
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It doesn't matter who you are or what permits you have, what collar you are wearing, or what tattoos you have, From the time I light you up until you depart the scene I will courteously and professionally treat everyone the same from awareness level "condition orange" until you have left the scene.
True, but I still think the concept of "good first impression" is a sound and relevant one from the perspective of the person being pulled over. I used to work at a "public counter" type environment and it was not a super-fun job, but it did tell you a lot about the science of "reading" people. After some experience you could pretty much tell how the encounter was going to go (if the person was prepared, legitimate, and going to get the benefit he was seeking) as he was walking up to the window and before he even opened his mouth. Clothing, posture, tattoos, mannerisms, smells, accent, figures of speech, eye contact and other "micro expressions" all can tell you an amazing amount of information in a couple of seconds. Many people use that instinct to some extent, and there is some very good training on reading micro expressions to help build on that human nature.
Only time I've ever been pulled over recently (and only second time in my life) was going through Omaha very late one night (~1:30am) after a delayed flight. A tail light was out and I didn't know it. Officer came along passenger side, saw me still in a suit and tie, heard me say that I was just heading home after a delayed flight from New York, glanced at my license and wished me a good evening. It was literally over about as fast as it took me to type that just now. He had bigger fish to fry apparently, and sped off before I could even get my license back in my wallet.
Would it have gone differently with some face tattoos, 20-inch rims and the driver's seat leaned way back? Yep.
Bottom line is, regardless of legal requirements, I don't know that it wouldn't hurt to have the license, registration and CHP all in hand as he's walking up, and, when asked for paperwork, say, "here you go sir, and by the way I'm a CHP holder too but not carrying anything today."
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Back on the original topic, I've had contact with a person who was at TWAW presentation and the presenter did NOT, according to her, say that you were required to notify an officer even if you aren't carrying.
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Ok, I was going to contact the LEO, but if there is a question to what was said, I will drop it here.
Although I HAVE heard this sentiment from multiple sources, maybe I will take it up with NSP, etc.
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As an LEO, there is a couple hundred ways for an LEO to misinterpret your intentions. One example is during the course of the traffic stop, your handgun starts to fall on the floor. You make a quick move to grab it, and the next thing you know you were standing at the pearly gates. I have not, so far at least, ever run across a CCW holder that I was particularly worried about, but that does not mean every person who has a CCW is Pro Police. In fact it may be very much the opposite. Don't assume every LEO is going to run a check on you every time. He may have just received a priority call and he has to run.... and he walks back up to see a gun some where you thought he could not see it. I don't like surprises. and yes we have arrested more than a couple knuckle heads who were armed and did not tell us. I would think you would want to say it first thing just in case you had a little brain lapse and thought you left your handgun at home and but had it all along. Saying it does not hurt anything. Its just good insurance. (Nobody out there who ever left their wallet at home or locked their keys in their car??) Remember LEO's have families and house payments and all that,.... and we want to see the sun come up tomorrow just like you do. Lastly, I really don't care if someone is offended, My duty is to stay alive and keep myself safe so I can protect others. I will continue to do that the best way I know how.
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As an LEO, there is a couple hundred ways for an LEO to misinterpret your intentions. One example is during the course of the traffic stop, your handgun starts to fall on the floor. You make a quick move to grab it, and the next thing you know you were standing at the pearly gates. I have not, so far at least, ever run across a CCW holder that I was particularly worried about, but that does not mean every person who has a CCW is Pro Police. In fact it may be very much the opposite. Don't assume every LEO is going to run a check on you every time. He may have just received a priority call and he has to run.... and he walks back up to see a gun some where you thought he could not see it. I don't like surprises. and yes we have arrested more than a couple knuckle heads who were armed and did not tell us. I would think you would want to say it first thing just in case you had a little brain lapse and thought you left your handgun at home and but had it all along. Saying it does not hurt anything. Its just good insurance. (Nobody out there who ever left their wallet at home or locked their keys in their car??) Remember LEO's have families and house payments and all that,.... and we want to see the sun come up tomorrow just like you do. Lastly, I really don't care if someone is offended, My duty is to stay alive and keep myself safe so I can protect others. I will continue to do that the best way I know how.
Thank you for your service!
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You are carrying.
You walk up to the door of Walmart just as a police cruiser pulls up. You and the officer exchange polite words. You continue into the store. He stops at the "Not an Exit" door in the lobby and knocks for entry.
During the brief conversation would you inform him?
Do you see a need to, since he didn't "stop" you?
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Do you see a need to, since he didn't "stop" you?
Probably not contact at that point.
But as far as I'm concerned, the very next interaction or exchange would be contact, simply because of the sustained interaction aspect.
At that point, I would say, "Officer, you should know that..............."
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How about when you pull into a way station and a DOT officer yells from 30 ft. away if I'm loaded, I yell back empty, he waves me through. The whole time I wait for my turn in line with driver license and CHP in hand fully expecting the first thing out of my mouth is I have a CHP and armed, yet all I said was empty.
Some how I feel I just broke the law. (technically, I think I did) But who wants to yell out the fact they have a gun.
To many gray areas in this law, I would personally like the informing while carrying law done away with, after all a LEO job description is more in line with things that are breaking the law not lawful things. This runs along the lines of harassment.
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People who are lawfully carrying a concealed handgun have families and would like to go home to them at the end of the day. I have read several studies lately that have come back with the same findings that people with a CHP are more law abiding than LEO's. (Who really should be worrying about who?)
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You are carrying.
You walk up to the door of Walmart just as a police cruiser pulls up. You and the officer exchange polite words. You continue into the store. He stops at the "Not an Exit" door in the lobby and knocks for entry.
During the brief conversation would you inform him?
Do you see a need to, since he didn't "stop" you?
Only if he needs your assistance in obtaining some .22 LR ..... :)
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the law reads OFFICIAL contact with a LEO - as in they stopped you for some specific reason. Having a chat with a LEO no matter how long doesn't meet the OFFICIAL contact criteria.
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For the life of me I can't figure out how the obligation to advise makes the LEO safer. I think it is pretty likely that all the reports showing the CHP holders are the most law abiding of society is accurate. But lets say we had a person with a CHP that was a bad person intent on doing bad things to the LEO. Would they inform the LEO that they were carrying? Maybe they would thinking the LEO would drop their guard a little, but I highly doubt it. So what does the requirement gain the LEO?
Fly
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For the life of me I can't figure out how the obligation to advise makes the LEO safer. I think it is pretty likely that all the reports showing the CHP holders are the most law abiding of society is accurate. But lets say we had a person with a CHP that was a bad person intent on doing bad things to the LEO. Would they inform the LEO that they were carrying? Maybe they would thinking the LEO would drop their guard a little, but I highly doubt it. So what does the requirement gain the LEO?
Fly
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^EXACTLY^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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I personally have great respect for law enforcement officers and I do understand they have a hard job. In my limited interactions with LEO's I inform them whether I'm carrying or not, I just think it's the right thing to do, yet I don't think it should be the law.
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Only if he needs your assistance in obtaining some .22 LR ..... :)
Hey, friendship goes only so far.... :laugh: but I'd be more than willing to help him find a good website!