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General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: Gary on September 17, 2014, 05:06:44 PM

Title: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Gary on September 17, 2014, 05:06:44 PM: Here is a short list of Handgun folks that were less than prudent, in the handling of their guns.

Number one cause of their problems, that often led to ambulance rides, helicopter rides, hospital stays, and families visiting morticians? It all seems to fall down to lack of knowledge, lack or respect, and just not thinking.

Many of these headlines, are Concealed Carry holders. One is an advanced CC holder. Teacher in a University.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/04/us-usa-guncontrol-idaho-idUSKBN0GY2E620140904 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/04/us-usa-guncontrol-idaho-idUSKBN0GY2E620140904)

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/man-shoots-self-after-leg-gun-safety-class (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/man-shoots-self-after-leg-gun-safety-class)

http://www.adn.com/article/20140826/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-alaska-state-fair (http://www.adn.com/article/20140826/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-alaska-state-fair)

http://www.13wmaz.com/story/news/local/macon/2014/06/16/crime-reports-macon-june-16/10631943/ (http://www.13wmaz.com/story/news/local/macon/2014/06/16/crime-reports-macon-june-16/10631943/)

http://www.wsmv.com/story/23594478/person-accidentally-shoots-self-in-leg-at-walmart (http://www.wsmv.com/story/23594478/person-accidentally-shoots-self-in-leg-at-walmart)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mexican-man-accidentally-shoots-head-posing-selfie-article-1.1890938 (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mexican-man-accidentally-shoots-head-posing-selfie-article-1.1890938)

http://www.mediaite.com/online/tennessee-man-accidentally-shoots-himself-to-death-while-driving/ (http://www.mediaite.com/online/tennessee-man-accidentally-shoots-himself-to-death-while-driving/)

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2014/08/29/man-sitting-in-traffic-accidentally-shoots-self/14782181/ (http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2014/08/29/man-sitting-in-traffic-accidentally-shoots-self/14782181/)

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/weird/Walmart-Shooting-214884781.html (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/weird/Walmart-Shooting-214884781.html)

How did I find these stories? (there are 10's of thousands of them) I went to Google and searched for:

person accidentally shoots himself

What is the one single contributing factor that would have saved them from shooting themselves? People are human, and do make errors in judgment, but there is still one factor that would have saved these people from themselves.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Gary on September 17, 2014, 05:24:12 PM: http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/23458052/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-head-at-lyons-gun-range (http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/23458052/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-head-at-lyons-gun-range)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIk_xg0__lc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIk_xg0__lc)

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/08/11/robber-arrested-after-accidentally-shooting-himself/ (http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2014/08/11/robber-arrested-after-accidentally-shooting-himself/)

http://www.kctv5.com/story/20555073/child-playing-with-gun-accidentally-shoots-self (http://www.kctv5.com/story/20555073/child-playing-with-gun-accidentally-shoots-self)

http://woodtv.com/2014/08/14/circumstances-leading-up-to-shooting-unclear/ (http://woodtv.com/2014/08/14/circumstances-leading-up-to-shooting-unclear/)

http://www.alan.com/2014/08/17/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-hand-fatally-shoots-woman-across-the-street/ (http://www.alan.com/2014/08/17/man-accidentally-shoots-himself-in-the-hand-fatally-shoots-woman-across-the-street/)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/25/man-shoots-himself_n_4853983.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/25/man-shoots-himself_n_4853983.html)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/craig-allen-loughrey-boy-shot-at-gun_n_2270340.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/10/craig-allen-loughrey-boy-shot-at-gun_n_2270340.html)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/michael-smeriglio-accidentally-shoots-own-penis_n_1871984.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10/michael-smeriglio-accidentally-shoots-own-penis_n_1871984.html)

This link has dozen or so links

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/accidental-shooting/ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tag/accidental-shooting/)
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: farmerbob on September 17, 2014, 05:40:33 PM: The answer to your question Gary is, all of them broke one or more of the 4 basic firearms rules. (DUH)

We need to dwell a little more in the positive and a little less in the negative.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Mudinyeri on September 18, 2014, 08:50:27 AM: People do stupid things every single day. Sometimes they do stupid things with guns. Sometimes they do stupid things with cars, motorcycles, ATV's, fire, bleach, Drano, hammers, knives, screwdrivers ... any number of inanimate objects. It's called survival of the fittest.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: farmerbob on September 18, 2014, 09:41:08 AM: I heard the other day that 600 people a year kill themselves with a belt. (That explains why they take them away in jail)

I would try to boycott that but, my pants would always be around my ankles making a speedy exist almost impossible. :laugh:
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: SemperFiGuy on September 18, 2014, 09:50:45 AM: Quote
People do stupid things every single day.

Which immediately brings up the Darwin Awards: www.darwinawards.com/ (http://www.darwinawards.com/)

Which are a focal point for deep human tragicomedy.

A Case in Point:
3 August 2014, Chicago | NOT a Darwin Award winner: The accidental shooting death of a man who failed to prove that his gun had no bullets, when he pointed the gun at his head and pulled the trigger. Moderators have ruled this recent Illinois shooting death "too common" and lacking the creativity of a true Darwin Award.

Wrong kinda fame.

sfg
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: farmerbob on September 18, 2014, 11:35:40 AM: http://concealednation.org/2014/09/if-youre-nervous-about-carrying-with-a-round-in-the-chamber-try-this/ (http://concealednation.org/2014/09/if-youre-nervous-about-carrying-with-a-round-in-the-chamber-try-this/)
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Gary on September 18, 2014, 03:13:07 PM: ND's happen to trained people, as well as untrained. With just about as much frequency? One police chief, has shot himself twice in his 20 years of police service, on duty.

Just what exactly causes ND's for trained individuals? One of you said, stupidity? Another said, failure to adhere to basic firearms safety rules.

The reasons go beyond what might be expected. Ever shout at your spouse? Ever almost kick your dog? Being tired, stressed, over worked, angry, depressed, anxious, worried, fearful, can bring on lapses in good judgment. Make a person do things they might not do otherwise. These stresses can also cause people to overlook things, not just purposefully violate good judgment.

One of the most respected firearms trainers of all time is Hickok45. He has a huge you tube following. He has a video, showing how to clean a Glock, where he unloads the gun, and leaves the loaded magazine on the cleaning bench. Is that good judgment? Is that correct procedure? Everyone has lapses in judgment, unknowing, or knowing, thinking they are good enough, to let it slide, no harm will come.

What is something you and I can do today, that almost 100% assures, we will never have an ND while carrying a handgun? This may differ, depending on what gun you carry. Some guns, it is easier to ND than others.

It boils down to two simple things:

READ THE HANDGUN OWNERS MANUAL, UNDERSTAND IT, AND FOLLOW THE USE OF THE GUN, TO THE LETTER.

(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608029007033991792&pid=15.1&H=215&W=160&P=0)
Glock, Beretta, Sig, no matter, read the owners manual, and follow what it says.

Follow handgun safety rules. Basic handgun safety rules are usually taught as 4 rules, or 3 rules by the NRA

(https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.608018870913534181&pid=15.1&H=253&W=160&P=0)

(http://www.wvvsc.org/photos/nra_rules.jpg)

If you had to pick one set of rules, for someone with stress, family, responsibilities, deadlines, two or three jobs, and all the contributing factors that lead well trained people to slip and become the statistic of another ND, which one is the safest, and simplest set of rules?

NRA adds these rules, to their basic 3

http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx (http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx)
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Gary on September 18, 2014, 03:25:59 PM: Do you see a huge difference in the two basic safety rules? (3 vs 4 rules?)

One set is all guns are always loaded (treated as if they are always loaded) while the other says check all guns to make sure they are unloaded, and keep them unloaded until ready to use.

Lets chat about this vast difference in gun safety procedures. On the surface, it may look to be about the same thing, but in practice, is one set of rules, leading to more preventable ND's than the other set?

One set of rules, something goes south, for a myriad of reasons, you get a bang. The other set of rules, something goes south, for any reason, you get a click.

For some reason, a John Wayne movie comes to mind. Not exactly relevant, but hay, any excuse for a John Wayne clip, can't be all bad. In the clip, Wayne says if anything goes wrong, my fault, your fault, someone dies. That is what we are talking about here, actions, that could lead to someone dying.

http://youtu.be/7-7OGoBMDVc (http://youtu.be/7-7OGoBMDVc)
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Mudinyeri on September 18, 2014, 04:22:36 PM: Quote from: Gary on September 18, 2014, 03:13:07 PM
Ever shout at your spouse? Ever almost kick your dog?

No and no.

What causes negligent discharges? Negligence - failure to take proper care.

You can blame it on being "tired, stressed, over worked, angry, depressed, anxious, worried, fearful" ... or stupid. Regardless of where someone tries to lay the blame, it ultimately comes down to them taking proper care ... or not.

People fail to take proper care in myriad scenarios and frequently pay the price. If you're not prepared to pay the piper, don't call for the tune.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: AWick on September 18, 2014, 06:03:09 PM: Apparently if you almost kick your dog then the magical Negligent Discharge ferry comes a knockin...

Wtf, seriously. Plus, just so you know, you pretty much lost all credibility by posting about 7 links to Huffington Post, and used them to further your boasting high horse platitudes.

Move along folks, just move along...
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: farmerbob on September 18, 2014, 06:13:42 PM: http://concealednation.org/2014/02/here-are-a-few-reasons-why-we-always-recommend-carrying-with-a-round-in-the-chamber-warning-graphic/ (http://concealednation.org/2014/02/here-are-a-few-reasons-why-we-always-recommend-carrying-with-a-round-in-the-chamber-warning-graphic/)

Give this a look if you think you might have time to chamber a round in your carry gun.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: DenmanShooter on September 18, 2014, 09:13:02 PM: Quote from: Gary on September 17, 2014, 05:06:44 PM
One is an advanced CC holder.

What is that? Is that someone who can carry and chew gum at the same time?
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: JimP on September 18, 2014, 09:23:02 PM: Which set? Duh.

There are Four Rules. Always, Never, Keep and Know .....so simple, even a 3rd grader can memorize them. They cover everything.

The NRA's 3 and then some ..... not memorable. Not practical (of what use is a gun for personal defense if it's unloaded? "Wait, Mr. Homeinvader, I need to load this before you can come after me.") ..... IMO, the NRA should just accept that Cooper's 4 Rules are it.

But they won't ..... Not Made Here syndrome.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: DenmanShooter on September 18, 2014, 09:29:46 PM: Quote from: JimP on September 18, 2014, 09:23:02 PM
Which set? Duh.

There are Four Rules. Always, Never, Keep and Know .....so simple, even a 3rd grader can memorize them. They cover everything.

The NRA's 3 and then some ..... not memorable. Not practical (of what use is a gun for personal defense if it's unloaded? "Wait, Mr. Homeinvader, I need to load this before you can come after me.") ..... IMO, the NRA should just accept that Cooper's 4 Rules are it.

But they won't ..... Not Made Here syndrome.

It is my understanding the NRA rules are more toward range safety (which makes the unloaded rule make sense), where as Cooper's are carry or general rules. Obviously you are not going to go hunting with an empty shotgun or rifle and then load it when the game shows up.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: JimP on September 18, 2014, 09:42:54 PM: Quote
It is my understanding the NRA rules are more toward range safety (which makes the unloaded rule make sense), where as Cooper's are carry or general rules. Obviously you are not going to go hunting with an empty shotgun or rifle and then load it when the game shows up.

As I said, Cooper's rules cover everything. The NRA's .....do not.

They would do well to promote The Four Rules instead of their rehash of various iterations of the "10 Commandments of Gun Safety" ...... but won't, for the same reason they tried to make a deal with Brad Ashford to do away with our Purchase Permit (in exchange for being "nuetral" on his list of "Guns Too Dangerous for Civilians to Own List" in the wake of Von Maur: I call it "Institutional Arrogance"- they don't like the Purchase Certificate, because it's not their baby ....but WE DO, because it is better than their baby (The NICS). The 4 Rules are better than the gobbledygook they promulgate, but again, it's not their baby.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: DenmanShooter on September 19, 2014, 07:23:42 AM: Quote from: JimP on September 18, 2014, 09:42:54 PM
As I said, Cooper's rules cover everything. The NRA's .....do not.

They would do well to promote The Four Rules instead of their rehash of various iterations of the "10 Commandments of Gun Safety" ...... but won't, for the same reason they tried to make a deal with Brad Ashford to do away with our Purchase Permit (in exchange for being "nuetral" on his list of "Guns Too Dangerous for Civilians to Own List" in the wake of Von Maur: I call it "Institutional Arrogance"- they don't like the Purchase Certificate, because it's not their baby ....but WE DO, because it is better than their baby (The NICS). The 4 Rules are better than the gobbledygook they promulgate, but again, it's not their baby.

All excellent points, Jim.

Now can someone please tell me what an "advanced CC holder" is?
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: Mali on September 19, 2014, 09:54:59 AM: I think it stands for "Advanced Coffee Cup Holder".

(http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/45/67/6c/45676c164dd376cbc962b22e43ad085a.jpg)
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: ILoveCats on September 19, 2014, 09:59:06 AM: Quote from: DenmanShooter on September 19, 2014, 07:23:42 AM
Now can someone please tell me what an "advanced CC holder" is?

I believe some states have an advanced or enhanced permit that allows carry in places normally off limits.

Witness the attempt to do something similar in Nebraska (last year for teachers) which would have required additional training curricula.

I think Missouri or Mississippi (or one of them other "M" states….) has an enhanced permit of sorts.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: ILoveCats on September 19, 2014, 10:21:12 AM: Looks like Idaho might also have something they call an Enhanced Permit...

http://www.idahofirearmsclasses.com/ccw-faqs/

What do I need to bring for the Standard Idaho class?
The only things you will need to bring with you are to the class is: your driver’s license (or other government issued picture ID), and (2) your payment for the class, and a pen. We will provide everything you need to be successful in this class. You do not need to bring a firearm to the class!

What do I need to bring for the Idaho Enhanced class?
The Idaho Enhanced class requires participants to shoot a pistol a minimum of 98 rounds. For this class students will need to bring their handgun of choice, Ear and Eye Protection, at least 100 rounds of factory loaded ammunition, and for our 8 hour classes a sack lunch. [/i]

This may be an old page but it looks like the basic permit may be fairly perfunctory, and the enhanced one requires training and scores the permit holder more reciprocity.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: ILoveCats on September 19, 2014, 10:57:59 AM: As for the broader theme of this thread. Ok… Sure… It is useful to look (occasionally, not obsessively) at negative events and help use them to consider potential vulnerabilities when managing risk in one’s life. As many people wisely noted in another thread here about pocket guns, there are potential negative consequences to whatever path you choose in life. That pocket gun in condition three may cost you dearly if the boogeyman jumps on you from behind a tree as you’re jogging through a darkly lit park some evening. That pocket gun in condition three in your cargo shorts also simply cannot discharge when you’re helping coach your kids’ football or wrestling team and getting into some more physical tackling drills or contortions. As SFG said, different risk management strokes for different folks. And smart people will also consider that different risk factors will wax and wane as their life changes. The athletic 28 year old coach may consider and mitigate his risks differently later in life when he is 85 and arthritic.

But having said that, it’s also important not to let negative stories dictate your thoughts on public policy or overly skew your perception of risk. I followed one of the links and on the side of the page it had more “Trending Stories”. Any guess which kind of stories were trending?

Live! Police Car Slams Into Dunkin' Donuts
Video: Group Ambushes Football Team, Attacks Player
Video: NJ High School Teacher Had Sex With 3 Students
Video: 3 Hurt in 4-Alarm Warehouse Fire, Neighbors Evacuated

None of which necessarily means squat with regard to public policy or risk mitigation. It might, but these also might be statistical anomalies. Statistical anomalies are what the media reports on, after all. The media aren’t going to do any stories about police cars that didn’t crash into Dunkin’ Donuts today, and they aren’t going to do any stories about the guy who CCW’ed today and didn’t have a gun “fall out of this pocket and go off”.

This is similar to reading about the side effects of prescription drugs. I've never had any bad side effect from any prescription drug, but by God if you do a search for a drug and any sort of side effect, you'll find some guy on some forum talking about how some drug ruined his life.

And.... Same goes for firearms. My SR-22 has gobbled up 1,000 rounds without a glitch, but google "SR-22 jam" and there's the one Statistical Anomaly Guy out of three hundred who got a lemon and says Ruger quality control has gone to heck and he'll never buy another Ruger again.
Title: Re: Being Less Than Prudent
Post by: farmerbob on September 23, 2014, 11:01:51 PM: http://www.homedefensegun.net/practicing-gun-safety/ (http://www.homedefensegun.net/practicing-gun-safety/)