NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Newsworthy => Topic started by: ILoveCats on December 31, 2014, 10:27:05 AM
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You've probably all seen this horrible story, I'm sure.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/12/30/toddler-accidentally-shots-and-kills-his-mother-in-idaho-wal-mart-police-say/?postshare=2461420006505514 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/12/30/toddler-accidentally-shots-and-kills-his-mother-in-idaho-wal-mart-police-say/?postshare=2461420006505514)
I keep swinging back and forth on this issue of training mandates. I notice Idaho's training requirements are pretty lax compared to many other states. The County Sheriff "may" require various types of proof of proficiency, which can include a hunter safety course completed at some point in the applicant's life.
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I find it very hard to support mandatory training, unless it's integrated into middle school or something, or cheap and very easy to schedule. I think things could be done to encourage training though, like perhaps greatly reducing the state fees for applying for a CCW if you have proof of additional training.
That was definitely a tragedy, and based on some news articles I've seen the lefties are already preparing to attack the NRA over it.
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I don't know if training would have prevented this tragedy; if common sense was not enough for her to keep her gun away from her child I doubt training would have done the trick either.
Mandatory training should not be required to exercise a Constitutional right. Gun safety should be taught in public schools, and it would be, if the curriculum was not under the control of liberal bigots.
If you look at the article and read the responses you see liberal bigots gloating about it. That's incentive for all of us to be safe and to get the word out about how to be safe.
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If you look at the article and read the responses you see liberal bigots gloating about it.
Wow, the responses are both sickening and ignorant. Some are happy at the chance to use this tragedy to push "real gun reform" and others are saying it should be illegal to carry a firearm loaded with the safety off (inb4 Glock fans start ranting about how stupid safeties are).
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I don't know if training would have prevented this tragedy; if common sense was not enough for her to keep her gun away from her child I doubt training would have done the trick either.
I agree. I am not sure if training would have stopped this tragedy but it certainly could have. Firearm safety is like anything else. It must be taught, learned, and reinforced before it becomes a habit. Additional training or any training at all may have helped to fill in the gaps and saved this woman's life.
That being said, we are all responsible for our own safety and as other have already said, training should not be required to exercise a Constitutional right.
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Wow, the responses are both sickening and ignorant. Some are happy at the chance to use this tragedy to push "real gun reform" and others are saying it should be illegal to carry a firearm loaded with the safety off (inb4 Glock fans start ranting about how stupid safeties are).
Been known to carry a cocked and locked 1911, also a glock 26, or a 357 mag revolver, so which is the safest?
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Good points. Part of me wants to believe the old saying that, "you can't fix stupid". To paraphrase in this context... you can't train away stupid. I've seen some people sent off to management or leadership training in a work environment and shook my head, realizing that it was going to be a waste of time and money. They were inherently unlikable people and bad leaders with no emotional intelligence. No amount of "training" was going to make people want to follow them.
On the other hand I've seen fair to middlin' managers - and very good managers - go off to such training, and come back even better. Sometimes much better. Training can and does help, so long as you have at least two brain cells to rub together in the first place.
Management and leadership are really soft and squishy subject areas to teach, yet it can be done. Gun safety is much more tangible and absolute; if you follow just a few rules and never, ever break them, you're 100% guaranteed to never have an accident. That's actually pretty amazing when you think about it. Don't you wish the same were true of driving your car; that if you followed the driver's manual 100% of the time you'd have zero chance of having an accident, even on an icy road? And the orthodox (Jeff Cooper) gun safety rules are even beautiful in the fact that they have levels of redundancy too.
It's pretty hard to ignore those fact in the context of a policy discussion about training. A tiny investment in training can yield huge, life-long results, even for people of marginal intelligence.
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I don't know the circumstances of this tragedy but, I personally can't see a 2yr. old having the hand strength to pull a 5 pound double action trigger.
This makes a strong argument for on body carry.
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I don't know the circumstances of this tragedy but, I personally can't see a 2yr. old having the hand strength to pull a 5 pound double action trigger.
This was my thought too. A 2 year old being able to pull the trigger AND lucky enough to be pointing it in a lethal direction? Seems a bit unlikely. Of course the article doesn't say what kind of firearm it was, could have been a cocked 1911 .45 with the safety off for all we know.
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Does "a well regulated militia" with the definition of "well regulated" meaning well trained, enter into the modern practice of the second amendment?
I am not in favor of mandatory training, but have often pondered the result if SCOTUS ever ruled on this part of the RKBA
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One horribly sad accident/ND does not make the case for changing laws.
I prefer South Dakota's training requirement for a concealed carry permit over any other, except maybe Vermont.
Again, the question can be asked: "what other Constitutional Right has training requirements?"
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It looks to me like the mother was responsible for her own death, a toddler should never have access to a loaded firearm, maybe a gun in a purse in a shopping cart with a child is unacceptable.
This is the exact reason I never could carry in a coat pocket, usually when you go inside whether a restaurant, someone's house or even a store we have a tendency to take the coat off, leaving us not in control of our gun, carrying in a purse I believe is much like this, in many ways worse. If you are going to carry, you need to be in control of your gun at all times or leave it locked up at home.(just my opinions)
I am also a big fan of South Dakota CC laws.
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Mandatory training should not be required to exercise a Constitutional right.
That's it, right there.
There is a BIG difference between "It is a really good idea to get training before doing this" and "You are required to get training before doing this."
And as several people have said: "You can't fix stupid."
You can mitigate mistakes, you can reduce errors, but you can't fix stupid. The four rules of safe gun handling are fantastic, really, because to injure someone you have to break SEVERAL simultaneously. Extra layers of safety are built in...
....which won't stop idiots from managing it anyway.
Mandatory training won't help that, because anything made "mandatory" will be along the lines of the required curriculum for the state CCW class, which pours huge amount of info onto students that really don't help much in terms of building safe, effective gun handling habits.
(Unless someone teaches a 3-day CCW course that I don't know about, which is about the only way to actually do all the NE CCW curriculum in a fashion that would allow students to learn good safe gun handling habits and practice handgun skills while also learning the legal aspects of CCW.)
On an unrelated note, did you know that there are over 28,500 chainsaw injuries every year, and the research agrees that: "The cause of most injuries can be traced to improper use of the saw or poor judgment on part of the operator."
Amazing how that works.
Training would only help one of those reasons.
(Training might have taught the woman to have her pistol in a holster in a dedicated carry purse, so a 2-year-old couldn't have gotten to the trigger. But she might have ignored it anyway. Then again, while I agree that you shouldn't have required training before carrying concealed, I think people are stupid if they don't GET training before carrying concealed. Especially the ones who think they "already know enough" to do so. )
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This article has a little more info:
http://news.yahoo.com/idaho-gun-tragedy-does-matter-mother-took-precautions-174446294.html (http://news.yahoo.com/idaho-gun-tragedy-does-matter-mother-took-precautions-174446294.html)
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Mott taken from the article quoted:
It’s against the law in Idaho to carry a loaded concealed gun.
This I do believe is incorrect.
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http://www.ijreview.com/2014/12/224777-tragedy-strikes-walmart-2-year-old-reaches-mothers-purse-discharges-handgun/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Crime (http://www.ijreview.com/2014/12/224777-tragedy-strikes-walmart-2-year-old-reaches-mothers-purse-discharges-handgun/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=organic&utm_content=conservativedaily&utm_campaign=Crime)
I believe the 4 rules of gun safety become irrelevant when your gun falls into incompetent hands. Education, training and safety are key factors, hence keeping control of ones firearm is a safety issue, all kids should be educated and trained how to safely handle a gun starting with the 4 basic rules of gun safety.
Standing around the busy gun counter at Cabela's the day after Christmas, I noticed a lot of adults don't know anything about gun safety, they use the trigger as part of the grips to hold the gun while pointing it at everyone around them. :o
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maybe this will put a little perspective on things. Feel real bad for them all. Ohh and Gramps states it real well.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/12/31/the-inside-story-of-how-an-idaho-toddler-shot-his-mom-at-wal-mart/)
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Standing around the busy gun counter at Cabela's the day after Christmas, I noticed a lot of adults don't know anything about gun safety, they use the trigger as part of the grips to hold the gun while pointing it at everyone around them.
I made the mistake of going to Scheel's the Saturday before Christmas. I can't count the number of times I had an AR-15 muzzle swept over me by teenagers with their fingers on the trigger. :(
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NBC nightly news led with it as one of their top stories tonight. It was, all things considered, a fairly agnostic story. It too portrayed the woman as highly educated, intelligent and very well versed in firearms. But obviously not well versed enough. I guess she thought that the purse was some sort of magic device that a kid couldn't open up.
But..... to the point of this thread. Probably nothing that "more training" would have solved. :( I've also seen people leave toddlers in a running car as they unloaded the Walmart groceries, also with tragic results. You can't train for everything, I guess. At some point common sense has to come into play. And how many times have I heard a mother or father say about a kid, "I only turned my back for a second..." when I know full well that it was more than a second and they were yammering on their mobile phone about something pointless and inane instead of minding their toddler. ::)
There were no indications of what kind of gun it was, so we don't know if there was a safety.
Any bets on whether there will be a lawsuit against the purse manufacturer?
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Many a woman leaves her purse in the shopping cart and turns her back to pull something off the shelf. This is an open invitation to theft. At the very least, the thief gets her keys, cash and credit/debit cards. If she keeps her gun in the purse, he gets that, too.
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Tragic. If the kid managed to kill her with the car we wouldn't even have heard about this.
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It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.
This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry. "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.
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It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.
This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry. "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.
Really, I remember a very well trained gun instructor who got shot in the head because of a little lapse in judgment.
Or could this and the instructors death be more in tune with Murphy's Law
If it can go wrong, it usually does.
If it can happen, it usually does happen.
Just because you think you know it, have trained extensively for it, and do everything you can to prevent it, sometimes Murphy' Law and Gremlins just come together to create a perfect storm to prove you are an idiot and there is nothing you are going to be able to do to stop it.
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Just because you think you know it, have trained extensively for it, and do everything you can to prevent it, sometimes Murphy' Law and Gremlins just come together to create a perfect storm to prove you are an idiot and there is nothing you are going to be able to do to stop it.
There used to be a sign at a factory I worked for: "Forget the excuses, accidents are avoidable." (or something similar to that). I often reflect on that sign and understand that most murphy law things fall under my own neglect. Maybe becoming involved in someone else's mistakes could be an exception, but even then, it is possible to recognize many of those potential situations.
The quicker a person takes responsibility for things that happen, the quicker the number of accidents reduce in number. RESPONSIBILITY is the key word here. Education and recongnition (or what ever choice of situational awareness you want to recognize) are individual responsibility. When individuals separate themselves from responsibility with excuses, accidents follow.
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If a person is negligent, careless and/or stupid, then all the training in the world won't compensate.
But training requirements are a grand way for overzealous and condescending bureaucrats to keep guns out of the hands of the commoners.
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well if TRUE GUN SAFETY (not gun avoidance) was taught in school like the good ol days that would help. Here is a major problem with this story.
1- the lady should of had the gun in a holster. Even a sticky holster would have worked. NEVER EVER have a gun around without a holster that covers the trigger.
2- I doubt the gun was on safety or had safety measures. Handguns should be on safe unless your about ready to shoot. All my handguns have a safety measure, a grip safety and a trigger safety.
3- Carrying a handgun in a purse is IMO the worst place to keep a handgun. If you are going to get robbed or going to stop someone from doing something really bad a purse which you have to sift through to find a gun is bad. Robbers are going to take your purse, your then defenseless. Carry a gun on your actually person.
4- This sounds really crappy but **** happens and the death rate of accidental shootings from CCP holders are so low it doesn't even register on the list of things to worry about. Now saying that to this family is not going to help I understand.
Here is my point. IF you are going to carry a gun, THINK THINGS THROUGH AND EDUCATE YOURSELF by magazine articles, books, internet, the NRA, local gun shops. Educating yourself would have prevented this accident.
Should there be mandatory education for gun owners? NO! The Constitution is very clear. The right of the people to bear arms is a right and no where in the constitution does it say you must go through classes in order to get a gun. The forefathers knew something so basic they didn't think it needed to be so blunt but it needs to be stated. TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
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It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.
This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry. "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.
^^^+1^^^^
I don't think anyone would say that a zipper is a good child safe barrier, no matter what holster.
The issue is, some manners of carry might be safer than others, if one chooses a form of off body carry, chances are they won't have a problem, but their odds of having an issue, I believe, are much higher than someone that carries on their person, throw someone that's around small children all day with all the distractions that come with that???
Much like if one who follows the 4 basic rules of gun safety has less chance of a ND than someone who uses their trigger guard like the finger hole on a cup of coffee.
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2- I doubt the gun was on safety or had safety measures. Handguns should be on safe unless your about ready to shoot. All my handguns have a safety measure, a grip safety and a trigger safety.
All quality modern handguns will have some type of drop safety (some combo of internal/external trigger safety). External safeties (levers, buttons, grip safeties) are in no way mandatory. External safeties have advantages and real disadvantages. I see students fail to reliably operate external safeties in advanced training all the time. My personal experience and training have taught me that not having an external safety is the better choice for me. It is one less action (in your case two actions) I have to perform in order to fire my weapon.
Here is my point. IF you are going to carry a gun, THINK THINGS THROUGH AND EDUCATE YOURSELF by magazine articles, books, internet, the NRA, local gun shops. Educating yourself would have prevented this accident.
Agreed. But you left out attending an actual training course with a vetted Instructor. There are things that you will learn about your current skill level and gear that you wont learn surfing the internet or even reading books by skilled trainers. Want to know how we convince most woman that purse carry is probably not the best choice? We put them through a couple of reality based scenarios with role players. They experience the disadvantages of off body carry first hand (we could likely do the same thing for you and your opinion of external safeties). Unfortunately, in my experience, most CCW holders dont believe that they need any training at all let alone some type of advanced training.
- Shawn
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I don't know if training would have prevented this tragedy; if common sense was not enough for her to keep her gun away from her child I doubt training would have done the trick either.
Mandatory training should not be required to exercise a Constitutional right. Gun safety should be taught in public schools, and it would be, if the curriculum was not under the control of liberal bigots.
If you look at the article and read the responses you see liberal bigots gloating about it. That's incentive for all of us to be safe and to get the word out about how to be safe.
100% spot on.
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Should there be mandatory education for gun owners? NO! The Constitution is very clear. The right of the people to bear arms is a right and no where in the constitution does it say you must go through classes in order to get a gun. The forefathers knew something so basic they didn't think it needed to be so blunt but it needs to be stated. TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
All grand talk...and I DO NOT want mandatory regulation, however we all are burdened by rules, requlations and law. Failure to understand the responsibility and take on the burden of self-education will result in mistakes (a very light word for what actually happens). Unfortunately many people feel they posess knowledge in excess of necessary. Those same people believe a RIGHT simply allows them to do as they want (the essence of the Right suits their want). Understanding that a Right carries responsibility is an often misunderstood concept.
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All quality modern handguns will have some type of drop safety (some combo of internal/external trigger safety). External safeties (levers, buttons, grip safeties) are in no way mandatory. External safeties have advantages and real disadvantages. I see students fail to reliably operate external safeties in advanced training all the time. My personal experience and training have taught me that not having an external safety is the better choice for me. It is one less action (in your case two actions) I have to perform in order to fire my weapon.
Agreed. But you left out attending an actual training course with a vetted Instructor. There are things that you will learn about your current skill level and gear that you wont learn surfing the internet or even reading books by skilled trainers. Want to know how we convince most woman that purse carry is probably not the best choice? We put them through a couple of reality based scenarios with role players. They experience the disadvantages of off body carry first hand (we could likely do the same thing for you and your opinion of external safeties). Unfortunately, in my experience, most CCW holders dont believe that they need any training at all let alone some type of advanced training.
- Shawn
Make no mistake, I am the world's biggest advocate of voluntary training. It is my fondest wish that ALL permit holders seek additional training beyond the permit process.
As for me, the more I learn, the less I know.
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Make no mistake, I am the world's biggest advocate of voluntary training. It is my fondest wish that ALL permit holders seek additional training beyond the permit process.
As for me, the more I learn, the less I know.
+1
- Shawn
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Just to close the loop: media are reporting it was a "9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield". No other specifics. (Coulda been either a thumb-safety or no-thumb-safety model, right?)
citation: http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/kootenai-county/2014/12/30/deadly-shooting-kills-hayden-walmart-shopper/21058855/ (http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/kootenai-county/2014/12/30/deadly-shooting-kills-hayden-walmart-shopper/21058855/)
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Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.
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Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.
In a vehicle. Yes.
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Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.
Thanks Ashford!
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Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.
Yes I like to call that the Omaha Gangbanger Rule
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Yes I like to call that the Omaha Gangbanger Rule
Originally I was taking my gun out of the holster while driving and placing it in the console because it was easier to reach than in the holster while I was driving. however, once I found out that this would place my passengers at risk of the law I had to rethink this process. Finally just made sure I had my gun reachable in the holster while driving. Somehow I think this law is pretty fricking stupid since I have to minimize security in the name of "We MIGHT pull over a car full of people carrying illegally and we want to be able to charge them ALL with something."
That would be one of the things I would like changed.
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I'm a little leery of off body carry in a vehicle for other reasons:
1) More handling of the gun involved. (Removing gun from the holster and placing it elsewhere, then holstering it back up etc.)
2) Unless the gun is secured in the vehicle mechanically, it could become a projectile during an accident and God only knows where it will end up.
Best to keep it in the holster IMHO.
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Murphy strikes again. LOL Must need more training.
CINCINNATI – Authorities say an off-duty police officer out to dinner with his wife in Cincinnati accidentally shot himself in the stomach inside a parking garage elevator.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/04/off-duty-ohio-cop-mistakenly-shoots-himself-in-elevator/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/04/off-duty-ohio-cop-mistakenly-shoots-himself-in-elevator/)