NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Newsworthy => Topic started by: shaggy853 on January 05, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
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http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Shooting_At_Millard_South_High_School_112952214.html
I'm watching live coverage here
http://www.ketv.com/video/26378142/detail.html
Looks like 2 adult victims, one of which apparently was airlifted away.
The suspect supposedly fled in a red accord and has been found(dead).
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'OPD saw Red Honda leaving scene, found 30min later' ::)
"Swat stormed school at aprrox 1:15pm." "students were ushered into kitchen at approx 12:45" ::)
I'm sorry, but my kids live in Omahorn and a half hour SWAT response time for Millard has me worried, especially since the presinct in charge of Elkhorn is downtown!
I don't know what the answers are, but we have to do more for our kids!
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Anyone know anything about this?
After I said something about metal detectors at the Omaha schools.
The Millard South High student who allegedly shot his principal and an assistant principal Wednesday afternoon was the son of an Omaha police detective.
Robert Butler Jr. was found dead in a car about 1:30 p.m. after Principal Curtis Case and Assistant Principal Vicki Kaspar were shot inside the school.
Case was listed mid-afternoon in serious but stable condition at Creighton University Medical Center.
Kaspar was in critical condition at Creighton.
Robert was the son of Omaha Police Det. Robert Butler. The younger Butler's body was found in a red Honda Accord in the 3900 block of South 147th St. Authorities requested an ambulance for the suspect.
http://www.omaha.com/article/20110105/NEWS97/110109863#millard-south-shooter-found-principal-injured
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As a Fromer Millard South parent and a current parent of a millard 1st grader I am asking the NFOA to begin the process of pushing our state Legislature to allow teachers and administrators with proper training to be able to carry concealed handguns for protection in our schools. This could have been avoided. I would feel completly comfortable with a teacher with proper training to be able to protect my child. I know who the principles are . They are good people. Please pry to God for thier recovery. More to come. I might not let up on this one for along time. Now it's personal. Hope all you state Senators are listening.
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http://www.kmtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13788613
That link says he is believed to have been wearing a vest and used his dads gun.
If thats true, his parents will feel the effects of this for a long time beyond just losing a son.
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Arming teachers will be the last thing this society ever allows. We are so polluted now with PC thought. Reality must be avoided at all costs.
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As a Fromer Millard South parent and a current parent of a millard 1st grader I am asking the NFOA to begin the process of pushing our state Legislature to allow teachers and administrators with proper training to be able to carry concealed handguns for protection in our schools. This could have been avoided. I would feel completly comfortable with a teacher with proper training to be able to protect my child. I know who the principles are . They are good people. Please pry to God for thier recovery. More to come. I might not let up on this one for along time. Now it's personal. Hope all you state Senators are listening.
I have absolutely no problem with teachers carrying guns. I think that most of the teachers have a problem with it though. They teach that guns kill people, they teach it so hard that they believe it. I now look for the Omaha schools to install metal detectors at the schools on the recommendation of the OPD.
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http://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/25197291-f33f-5a96-b3dc-81f43d2f124b.html
Former Lincoln SW High student. Had just moved to live with his father and was planning on attending Millard South? I'll be real interested to see how all the facts play out.
And huskergun, I've got your back here as well, I too believe that even a few responsible faculty members training and carrying are the best defensive we could offer. I for one have even pondered offering 'service' (after more training of course) to my childrens' schools, all they have to do is authorize it. I know we have some issues we were wanting to get thru this year, but maybe pushing a 'campus carry' type thing on the heels of this event would be toward our benefit. Utilize the current emotions to carry an agenda thru.
On a related note, I was very impressed to find out that Westridge in Elkhorn just recently performed some 'crisis drills' At least they are not being total sheep about it. I have yet to speak to the principal to find out what all was invovled, but will make it a point now.
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The sad part of the metal detectors being brought up is that they would have done no good in the first place. The office is only about 20 feet from the front entry. The detectors won't stop a finger from pressing the trigger. So short of hiring armed guards for every entry, installing metal detectors for a forewarning at every entry as well, you just can't stop everyone.
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"I have absolutely no problem with teachers carrying guns. I think that most of the teachers have a problem with it though. They teach that guns kill people, they teach it so hard that they believe it. I now look for the Omaha schools to install metal detectors at the schools on the recommendation of the OPD. "
I think you are probably right about most teachers. I am a teacher too, though, and wish I could carry at work. Schools are PRIME targets for any jack#ss trying to go down in a blaze of glory.
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"I have absolutely no problem with teachers carrying guns. I think that most of the teachers have a problem with it though. They teach that guns kill people, they teach it so hard that they believe it. I now look for the Omaha schools to install metal detectors at the schools on the recommendation of the OPD. "
I think you are probably right about most teachers. I am a teacher too, though, and wish I could carry at work. Schools are PRIME targets for any jack#ss trying to go down in a blaze of glory.
Blaze of glory is exactly what these punks want and it's exactly what they get.
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There was even an armed (SRO) School Resourse officer there. Goes to show that even when they are in the same damn building that the police are still minutes away when seconds count. This just makes me sick and very sad.
A close friend of mine works there and was involved in the trouble early in the day. Thank God she was at lunch when it happened. It wasn't a very good situation then either from what I am hearing.
Anyway... It doesn't matter what the teachers or the Liberal Omaha lawmakers think. We should still pursue what we believe is right. The teachers that want to carry can and the ones that don't wont. But is it not our responsibility to help those that want to protect themselves and our kids? I will be contacting our lawmakers. Oh, and so will the anti's ...just a thought
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Continue to pray to God for the family of Dr. Curtis Case and Dr. Vicki Kasper.
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Too bad more people don't feel this way:
"The Gun Is Civilization" by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret) Marko Kloos
Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument,
or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.
In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that
removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.
When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me,
because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.
The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman
on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on
equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing
with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity
in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.
There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice
or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.
People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong,
and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.
Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.
People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV,
where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender,
not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.
The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.
When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because
it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason,
only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
By Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret.)
Marko Kloos http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/2007/03/23/why-the-gun-is-civilization/
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Dr. Vicki Kasper died. Is that enough for these damn liberals who refuse to see the truth? This just pisses me off.
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huskergun - I have to agree with you on arming some school personnel. My concern is that over the next few days this is going to be used as another example of why "guns are bad." I was on the road in the Omaha area today listening to 1290 AM on the radio and on the national stories at the top of the hour the lead story was "There were three shooting in the U.S. today. One at a high school in Omaha, one at a church in . . . [I forget the State], and one at a shopping mall in Arizona." What they won't cover is that it is extremely unlikely anyone carrying legally would have been involved in any of these since in at least 2 of the 3 locations (probably all 3) it was illegal to have a handgun [the church and school in particular, and most likely the mall as well]. They also won't mention the fact that since these locations are "posted" or "illegal" they make themselves a natural target for someone seeking to do this type of carnage. Very seldom do we read a story of some stupid punk with a gun walking into a gun store and opening fire. These type of people pick their location based on the likelihood that people there won't be shooting back. The only way to defeat this mentality is to make them question whether they stand a chance of getting away with it - or not. If they think they will get shot back at they are likely to either not do it or find an easier target.
my 2 cents anyway . . .
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I worked in the Omaha Public Schools from March 1992 to 30 September 1996 as a school security officer. Most of the security officers at that time were retired law enforcement or retired military. These officers already have the training and responsibility for protecting the facility, faculty and students. I believe that they should be armed and allowed to do the job that they are being paid to do.
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It's allowed in churches, why not schools? ???
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The "school security officer" hid behind his desk until the shooter left the building. (http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110105/NEWS97/110109863) If this was an unarmed school employee, it reiterates that unarmed security is no security at all especially in the total absence of combat mindset. If this was their assigned armed resource officer, words just fail me.
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Wow, that is absolutely unacceptable.
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There are 2 different issues here. First the responsible party is the cowardly murderer that perpetrated this act. The other issue is the hand-wringers and opportunistic, tyrannical vultures that use these horrible circumstances to further their agenda to control others & infringe freedoms. They are 2 sides of the same worthless coin.
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The "school security officer" hid behind his desk until the shooter left the building. (http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110105/NEWS97/110109863) If this was an unarmed school employee, it reiterates that unarmed security is no security at all especially in the total absence of combat mindset. If this was their assigned armed resource officer, words just fail me.
One article read that the officer was indeed unarmed.
This information also left me without words. Some folks at work responded with, 'well he doesn't get paid enough to put his life on the line, just make the phone call.' BS!! As far as I'm concerned, you don't take a job as a school security for the money, whether off duty officer or rent a cop, you do it to protect the our children. If the mindset is not there to do the right thing when the time comes, then go home, your just takin' up space. (or as mama always said- crap or git of the pot!)
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The "school security officer" hid behind his desk until the shooter left the building. (http://www.omaha.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110105/NEWS97/110109863) If this was an unarmed school employee, it reiterates that unarmed security is no security at all especially in the total absence of combat mindset. If this was their assigned armed resource officer, words just fail me.
One article read that the officer was indeed unarmed.
This information also left me without words. Some folks at work responded with, 'well he doesn't get paid enough to put his life on the line, just make the phone call.' BS!! As far as I'm concerned, you don't take a job as a school security for the money, whether off duty officer or rent a cop, you do it to protect the our children. If the mindset is not there to do the right thing when the time comes, then go home, your just takin' up space. (or as mama always said- crap or git of the pot!)
I guess i'm in the same mind thought....I don't have the words, this also extends to those who do have ccw and if they could defend others in the time of evil..... I pray for those who were lost and left behind to deal with this tragic loss of life, and to moreso commit myself to training and mindset of protection of self and loved ones as well as the innocent.
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A question that goes down a different line - is the father liable from either a criminal or civil standpoint since his son had access to his firearm? I'm not interested in the fact that the father is a LEO, but rather from the standpoint that he was a lawful gun owner who's firearm was taken by someone who wasn't and committed a felony.
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A question that goes down a different line - is the father liable from either a criminal or civil standpoint since his son had access to his firearm? I'm not interested in the fact that the father is a LEO, but rather from the standpoint that he was a lawful gun owner who's firearm was taken by someone who wasn't and committed a felony.
I'm betting Sen. Council will mention it sometime during the next 90 days.
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I'll bet the subject gets hushed because of the father's contacts.
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NFOA coming in on the side of the policeman may gain us some points with OPD.
The kid was lividly mad and had revenge on his mind. Gun, knife, ball bat or bomb, he wanted to kill someone, period. If he repected the rules, none of this would have happened.
Reminder to all, cop bashing will not be tolerated on the forum. We have many good members who are LEO.
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That post is NOT anti cop. It is anti double standard.
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Whoa, was not referring to any post yet, just reminding anyone who may post in the future. I agree with you Justsomeguy. If there was a problem with any post, member would be contacted directly and their post removed asap.
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How long did it take for the kid to enter the school and fire the first shot? Would even an armed guard have had enough time to stop this from happening? I think there would have only been one person shot, which is bad enough, but could it have been stopped by an armed guard? Maybe it would have been enough to draw enough attention that the Butler kid would not have been able to hit anyone.
Does Nebraska have a law that says guns have to be locked to keep minor children from being able to access them? The father is going to have to live with this for the rest of his life, even if he is found to be negligent, it was his gun. Hushed or not.
Maybe having armed guards would have kept the kid from even going into the school. I say Nebraska needs to set the standards for allowing faculty to be armed if they are legal to do so and are willing.
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I guess that I don't understand how NFOA could gain by commenting at all on this tragedy. I doubt that we have near enough information to support or not the father. If someone wants to start talking about how evil guns are, that's a different story. Maybe I'm way off base here and open to help in understanding our role here.
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Re: Unarmed School Security Officer
News accounts indicate that the MSHS SSO was unarmed.
Because......Everybody Knows...Guns and Schools Don't Mix. Gotta be 1000 feet away from the premises.
Therefore>>>>>>>It made Perfectly Good Sense for him to hunker down behind his desk when the Shooter pointed a Glock .40 at him. Woulda been Pretty Stoopid just to stand there Unarmed, lookin' eyeballs at the Kid With a Smokin', Loaded Gun. Who had just Shot the Living Daylights out of Two People.
Just a Random Thought Fer No Particular Reason.
sfg
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I haven't read a lot of the stuff tonight, but it was my understanding the kid came in to the school, signed in at the security desk, then went to the principal's office... if that is true even an armed security officer wouldn't have stopped the shooting, but might have stopped the guy from leaving.
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I guess that I don't understand how NFOA could gain by commenting at all on this tragedy. I doubt that we have near enough information to support or not the father. If someone wants to start talking about how evil guns are, that's a different story. Maybe I'm way off base here and open to help in understanding our role here.
I think you're right, emotions are too high right now and we could easily come off as insensitive.
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Maybe having armed guards would have kept the kid from even going into the school. I say Nebraska needs to set the standards for allowing faculty to be armed if they are legal to do so and are willing.
Knowing that he had to fight his way in may have had a major impact on the decision to attack the school
ETA I see now that may not have been the case. I wonder why the school security did not recognize the potential risk of allowing someone who had just been booted out earlier to return to the school without questioning their intentions. Am I wrong to expect that would be a function of a security officer?
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From what I heard, HuskerXDM is correct.
On the news tonight they said he came in the regular door, signed in with the security officer and asked to see the asst principal.
When he was escorted into her office he shot her 3 times, then met the principal in the doorway on his way out of the office and shot him. Upon exiting the office he took a shot at a janitor and missed. As he headed out the school's exit he covered the guard with the pistol.
Perhaps if the front door guard had been armed he might have shelved the idea, then again he might not have.
Honestly I'm not seeing a lot of flaws in the plan here. He stole the gun while his father was out of the room, broke into the garage to steal the car, and followed the school's rules upon entry.
I think the kid just couldn't deal with some emotional turmoil and decided to take someone with him on his way out.
A sad, sad way for two lives to end, and countless others to be traumatized.
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I guess that I should point out that, at least in Omaha Public Schools, Faculty is Teachers and Administrators. Staff is everyone else involved in supporting students and faculty. Therefore, the Security Officers are Staff. I doubt that many Faculty would want to be armed, academics being the way they are. Given the background of the Security Officers, at least when I worked as one, they are/were well suited and trained to be armed.
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I guess that I should point out that, at least in Omaha Public Schools, Faculty is Teachers and Administrators. Staff is everyone else involved in supporting students and faculty. Therefore, the Security Officers are Staff. I doubt that many Faculty would want to be armed, academics being the way they are. Given the background of the Security Officers, at least when I worked as one, they are/were well suited and trained to be armed.
I'm faculty at a public school in Lincoln, and have very close friends where I work that know I carry away from school. They expressed today that they wish I could be armed while working. I wish I could too.
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At some point it would be nice to have a sincere, rationale conversation w/ legislators and education leaders. Perhaps we could sponsor a forum or listening session w/ key influencers and decision makers - after the emotions simmer down. Just an idea.
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That's a great idea Roper! Even if it's just to sit down and discuss various aspects of the issue and hear all sides. It might not solve it but it may present the opportunity for folks on all sides to "think outside the box" and consider other view points.
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I discussed the idea of armed staff/faculty with a youth behavioral therapist. Her story was that while she was in Kalifornia they did have well armed police in the schools. They had actually tried unarmed plain clothed security and the dreaded metal detectors, but the students did not feel safe. The mere sight of firepower actually made them feel secure!! :o :o Whoa, what a concept huh !!
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That is a Kool-Aid thing, the government is protecting them by showing their might. I would rather the guns not be shown, that would be less like a police state. I am totally against the police guarding the schools, that is how socialism and communism work.
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I'm with Roper. That is a great idea. Let's get the ball rolling on this so we arent having to left playing catch up. Senator Christensen already commented on it 2 days ago.
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I attended Vicki Kaspars funeral today. Im sure that Robert Butler Jr. had no idea of the sheer number of people and families that would be affected by his actions. She obviously touched many lives. Vickie was one of my wifes dearest friends and this has been a difficult week for our family.
I have played out what happened over and over in my mind hoping to learn something from this tragedy and how to prevent it happening again. And have come up empty. Like the tragedy in Arizona there is little defense from a lone gunman simply walking up to you and, without warning, shooting you. Only those around will have time to react and intervene.
I can say that the common thread between the two incidents is that someone with basic first aid skills, and the will to intervene and use them, can make a difference. If you havent already everyone reading this should seek out that training and make the decision that you will use it if needed.
To move on I will do the only things I can do. Which is to offer support to her family. Re-dedicate myself to training harder and to seek the knowlege of those that know more than me. Hone not only my physical skills but my mental ones. Then pass that knowlege to my family, friends and students.
Thanks for listening and be safe.
- Shawn
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Not related but I found out today that at one of our High School here in grand island, the resource officer are Armed while on school property....
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My Daughter attended. I couldn't make it myself. All I can say today is Rest in peace Vicki Kaspar.
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Not related but I found out today that at one of our High School here in grand island, the resource officer are Armed while on school property....
They have been for years, since I was there over a decade ago.
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Just goes to show me,........How really damn OLD I AM....
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Not related but I found out today that at one of our High School here in grand island, the resource officer are Armed while on school property....
There was an armed Resource Officer at Millard South when the shooting occured but he was not in the immediate area when it happened. By the time he was alerted and made his way to the office area the shooter had left the building. He is not to be confused with the unarmed security person at the entrance who saw the shooter.
- Shawn
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http://www.1011now.com/news/headlines/Nebraska__School_District_Gets_50K_After_Shooting_118301884.html
Not certain what will come of this, but Id be willing to bet the ideas are already brewing and OPD is involved......
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That's about 1/2 the cost of a Dillon Aero for the front entrance.