NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Firearms Training and Education => Topic started by: sjwsti on May 23, 2011, 03:31:56 PM
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We`ve all seen the drill (some of you have done it..) Your sitting in a car, the timer beeps, you draw and shoot at a cardboard target sitting outside the window. Or you exit the vehicle, move to cover and shoot.
These drills are great for training basic gunhandling but arent very realistic. They do little to simulate the violence and stress of a real attack while in a vehicle. In the following videos we did the best we could to try to simulate an actual attack.
We went with the worst case scenario. You have either just parked or have just entered your vehicle. You are distracted, the engine is off, windows down and the doors unlocked. We did this with the seatbelt on and off. The start signal is getting punched in the head.
In the first video the BG attacks through the open window.
YT 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMGemKWddIQ#ws)
Lessons learned:
Getting hit in the head when your not ready for it sucks.
You need to be able to clear and draw your gun with one hand while using the other to protect your head.
Untucking your shirt from under the seatbelt made the draw consistantly faster.
Leaning toward the passenger seat gave me the space I needed to draw and be in a position to shoot.
In the second video the BG attacks and then opens the door to gain access.
YT2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm4wE0ZGiYI#ws)
Lessons learned:
This actually seemed easier than the first drill. When the BG stops punching to open the door it gave me time to lean back and draw my gun.
In the third video the attack comes from the passenger side. The BG is wearing a helmet so we can strike to his head and face. I am able to react quickly enough that I undo the seatbelt and escape. Please excuse the cameraman, he thinks this is funny ::)
YT3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxuEy9Slipo#ws)
Lessons learned:
Escape is the best option for this attack.
If you are right handed, drawing from this position is very difficult. We were able to excecute some support hand draws but the gun is in an awkward position.
We did this particular drill more than 10 times. I was only able to undo the seatbelt a couple of times. Loss of fine motor skill along with the speed and violence of the attack made this nearly impossible. The majority of the time I couldnt get out of the car. If the seatbelt were off to begin with this would not be an issue.
The last video demonstrates this all very well. I dont get the belt undone quickly enough and have to use my hands to defend myself. The BG sees my draw and gets his hands on the gun. All bets are off at this point and I even resort to biting in an attempt to get him to let go of my gun.
YT4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llmFAPQN8D8#ws)
Lessons learned:
Fighting in the front seat of a small car sucks but you may have to do it if you are belted in.
The leverage techniques we teach for gun takeaways and defense dont work well when seated with little room to move.
Keep your windows up and doors locked.
We did over 50 repetitions between the four of us. The attacks from the drivers side seemed easier to deal with than I thought they would be. While the attacks from the passenger side were much harder. Depending on your size, what vehicle you drive and how you carry your gun, there are many variations that we all can bring to this. Try it yourself and let us know how it goes.
Next time the BG gets a weapon.
- Shawn
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Shawn, Thanks for the video's I always like seeing these and trying to figure out "what would I do."
You are correct any fight in tight enclosed spaces is very difficult, and as you show the BG has the advantage of suprise. The best maneuver is to get away (unfortunately not always easy), once you have some space between you and the attacker then reassess the situation and/or take the necessary actions.
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On a non weapon note: Generally speaking, if you stop where you can see the back tires of the vehicle ahead of you, there is room available to get around the vehicle ahead. This is a great thing to practice so you don't get pinned or closed in. Part of DEFENSIVE DRIVING 8)
Not to minimize the videos in the least but a little prior planning and practice can't hurt :D :D
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On a non weapon note: Generally speaking, if you stop where you can see the back tires of the vehicle ahead of you, there is room available to get around the vehicle ahead. This is a great thing to practice so you don't get pinned or closed in. Part of DEFENSIVE DRIVING 8)
Not to minimize the videos in the least but a little prior planning and practice can't hurt :D :D
Good point. However, I think what they were trying to demonstrate in these drills was attacks during entry or exit of the vehicle when the vehicle is parked and engine off.
These videos are an excellent demonstration of why one should keep their doors locked and their windows up.
Thanks for posting them.
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Very eye-opening. You always assume that you have the advantage because you have a concealed handgun but these videos clearly show that the advantage can be taken away from you very quickly by a surprise attack.
This definitely makes me re-think keeping my carry gun in the glovebox when I'm driving. I always thought, due to the seatbelt being right where I normally have my gun, I'd have an extremely difficult draw if I had to draw from my holster in the car.
What kind of carry holster do you use, Shawn? Do you find it is easy to draw while sitting and in the car?
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Very eye-opening. You always assume that you have the advantage because you have a concealed handgun but these videos clearly show that the advantage can be taken away from you very quickly by a surprise attack.
This definitely makes me re-think keeping my carry gun in the glovebox when I'm driving. I always thought, due to the seatbelt being right where I normally have my gun, I'd have an extremely difficult draw if I had to draw from my holster in the car.
What kind of carry holster do you use, Shawn? Do you find it is easy to draw while sitting and in the car?
I carry a Glock 17 in a Dale Fricke Archangel Appendix IWB. Appendix carry works quite well while seated, even with the seatbelt on. All draws were faster when I untucked my shirt from under the seatbelt. Before working these drills I didn't always do that, now I will.
We had one participant using a traditional behind the hip IWB and he didn't have as much difficulty drawing with the seatbelt on as we thought he would. When attacked from the left he would lean forward and to the right of the steering wheel, giving himself the space he needed to draw. As a qualifier, he didnt have a mouthpiece so we didnt go quite as hard with him as the others. We will do more reps with him later and properly test his carry method.
We did work the drill with a gun in the glovebox. And as long as the attack came from the left it didn't work too badly.
Regardless of how you carried, when the attack came from the right, presenting the pistol was very difficult. If it were in the glovebox I'm not sure how you would get to it. And if you managed to get out of the car you just gave it to the BG. Add family members in the vehicle and how would you defend them being taken? Its alway best to have your gun on you whenever possible.
One thing we wanted to accomplish with this was for us to question and evaluate how we carry in our vehicles. Ive had many students tell me that they only carry a gun in their car. After doing this we found that how and were you keep it can be very important.
- Shawn
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It's a great demonstration of how situational awareness and preparedness are potentially much more important than a concealed weapon.
Thanks for posting the videos, Shawn.
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im a lefty. id like to see how being left handed would change the situation.
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im a lefty. id like to see how being left handed would change the situation.
I saw a postal carrier's Subaru for sale the other day(Right hand drive). Seems like the logical solution. ;D