NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
Ammunition & Hand Loading => Cartridge and Shotshell reloading => Topic started by: unfy on December 11, 2011, 05:21:21 PM
-
Been a few forums talking about it. There's a few youtube videos about different setups. I figured I'd look into it as well.
Shopping this weekend:
$5 - Tub to hold solution
$11 - Zepp root killer (99% copper sulfate pentahydrate)
$12 - 20 feet of 1/4" copper tubing
$6 - acetone
$55 - 13v 3amp dc power supply from radio shack (jameco would have it cheaper but i'm impatient)
$5 - car bulb holder
$5 - car bulbs
$1 - distilled water
$?? - pipe cutter
----
Stuff I already have: aligator clips, wire, etc.
I'll be setting things up tonight... will take pictures eventually.
I couldn't really find a copper plate to act as a copper donor, so i'll be hammering out the copper tubing to see if that can work. There are the 1-2" end caps that might be able to be hammered flat.. but... whatever, tubing will work i hope.
----
Now for the silliness: I don't have any casting supplies yet (other than welders gloves). I have some lead from missouri bullet company that'll i'll try it out on, but also don't have sizing dies. Soooo right now it's just "can i electroplate".
Lead pot and other supplies will be coming shortly.
-
Trying to make copper plated bullets or metal jacketed? Sounds like a lot of work but a fun experiment. Let us know how it goes.
-
Jacket would be a swaging setup and stuff. I've seen some hacks using rifle resizing dies to form ogives but... i'd prolly insist on doing the insanely expensive ch4d dies or something.
No, this is just to plate the lead to eliminate leading in the barrel. Guess I'm tired of tweaking charge amounts depending on what kind of lead I'm loading. And full power pistol loads would be kinda nice as well for plinking with my carry weapon (rather than the reduced loads to stop leading)...
---
A lot work, it shouldn't be too much. I'm about to take a file to the plastic tub right now to hold the copper in place easily. Bullets themselves should just be wrapping thin wire around the bullet lube channels and hanging like xmas ornaments. Dunno about density / time it'll take for each batch.... depends i guess.
And most people size their cast bullets anyway.. so....
-
Brother and I run copper plated bullets for most of our stuff (only we buy them ready-to-load). They seem to work well.
-
Brother and I run copper plated bullets for most of our stuff (only we buy them ready-to-load). They seem to work well.
For plinking, I don't mind berry's cheap plated bullets. Still over twice the cost of bought-lead bullets tho. Soooo am looking into plating them myself.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/tub%20and%20copper.jpg)
measured out 1.5" spots and notched the top of the tub with a file to hold copper tubing in place (to hang the bullets from into solution).
dimensions ? pulled out of my arse.
i'll prolly notch the copper tubing with a pipe cutter to make hanging more uniform later.
a pipe bender woulda be handy :)
-
I Wuz Gonna Say.............
For Pete's sake, just go buy BerrysBullets and the Hell With It!!!
Then I realized that you would probably come back with:
"Fer Cryin' Out Loud, Why are You Reloading 9mm's Anyhow?? You're losing about 5 cents/loaded cartridge considering all your equipment and you're taking all that time besides."
So I decided to keep my mouth shut.
Looks like you're having some Really Good Guy/Shooter Fun.
sfg
-
Jelly jar or the size you need, if don't have a bender.
Old gas man's trick. :D
-
It's ... well... I think this officially makes it a hobby.
Also...... I'm kicking myself. Was looking through Home Depot for an acid... and couldn't really come up with anything. I know "The Works" toilet bowl cleaner is 20% HCl acid... but... dunno what the rest is.
Came across something but it had no f'ing contents label on it.... which was pissing me off.
http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=32&prodid=81 (http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=32&prodid=81)
According to the MSDS -- that's 35-45% phosphoric acid! Which should suit my needs just fine :(. (A suitable etching solution so don't have to wire-brush / steel wool all of the stuff to be plated).
Oh well, I'll just fetch that next weekend.
So pissed though.... if it was just f'ing labeled i woulda bought it on the spot.
-
Jelly jar or the size you need, if don't have a bender.
Old gas man's trick. :D
had some luck with a toothpick holder that was approx right size.
but... this is all just experimental for now so it doesn't have to be super pretty.
-----
oh, and SFG: after this initial setup, plating bullets should only cost electricity + time and the occaisional cost of replacing the copper donor plate.
-
unfy..............
Wuz wonderin'..
How are you going to do your deposition thickness quality checks to make sure all your bullets have the same plating thickness and uniform symmetry of deposition all around the bullet??
Or will it even make any difference at all??
[ps - BerrysBullets website has info on their own plating thickness that might be of some comparative use to you and other plater guys.]
Also, I've used my 12v DC car battery trickle charger and Lincoln pennies to plate stuff for science projects for the grandkids. So if/when your present power source gives out, you can try your trickle charger and see if it does the job.
sfg
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/donor.jpg)
donor tube smashed, dunno how well it'll work....
zepp desolving in the background.
----
re: penny & trickle charge
yup, many ppl have done this with car chargers in the past :).
uniform thickness -- maybe if i get some way of circulating the solution i can garuntee a better coat. work in progress and all that.
this should be a good power supply... it looks like it's regulated and all of that.
for measuring thickness, calipers will do for now (before and after).
as far as all bullets having similar thickness, prolly just hope they do the same and base it off of time in the bath. again, circulating liquid would prolly help.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/quarter1.jpg)
Quarter was scratched up with a brush, bathed in acetone then distilled water, it's currently plating.
within the first 20-30 seconds you can WATCH it plate.
this may be *way* too fast.... we'll see after 10min...
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/quarter2.jpg)
10min in the bath.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/quarter3.jpg)
indeed it might be too fast. it retains some a copper sheen, but a lot of it just rubs off.
prolly need to lower the power input.
-
Interesting. I have used electrolysis to remove nasty fouling from a rifle bore. Basically the same thing but with a c cell battery for power and the current flowing the opposite direction so it pulls gunk off instead of plating it on.
-
bkoenig: same concept yup.
----
BTW -- I was a bit too excited last night and forgot to mention some obvious safety stuffs.
Copper Sulfate is very nasty in high concetrations. guano can make you very sick even if it gets under your finger nails and then you chew your nails afterwards. Sooo... yeah, take care. Although I wasn't wearing them when it came to actually plating the quarter, I usually wear latex gloves. That way if any gets on me, the glove gets thrown away...... just in case I rub my eyes later, etc.
-----
Today I stopped by Menards on the way to work for some more supplies. While I was there, since it's a different store, I looked for similar supplies as to last time. There was no Zepp root killer, but there was some Root Gone:
http://www.heartlandlabs.com/images/rootgone_000.jpg (http://www.heartlandlabs.com/images/rootgone_000.jpg)
It, too, is a 99% copper sulfate thing.
Also while there, I was looking for some etching acid. There were some small bottles by Rustoleum that had acid warnings but no actual contents / percentages. Instead, grabbed some muriatic acid for $4. Silly historical names >:D. Muratic acid is hydrochloric acid. It's Sunny Side white label branded, 31.45% HCl.
This should etch the lead just nicely to allow better coating.
Working with acids requires A LOT of safety precautions. Stay away from fumes, wear long sleeve shirts or other protective gear (eye stuff!), and some rubber gloves and jug of oh-guano water prolly aint a bad idea.
----
The copper coat on my quarter survived the morning in my pocket with no real signs of wear. There's a few shiny spots, from rubbing around and stuff, but they're *copper* shiny, not typical quarter shiny :D
-----
Tonight I'll clean try some more experimentation and post pics (naturally).
-----
Edit: updated acid stuffs
-
Switched to a different metal... some... computer back plate things. Buffed, acetone, water, plate.
6v (4 D cells), 10min.
Didn't... come out that great.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/metal1.jpg)
and then rubbing it off:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/metal2.jpg)
.... dunno if i need more time & better polishing or.... if it doesn't like the receiving metal...
-
I had zero luck getting a washer to plate (at 6v nor 13v). It all just rubbed off
---
Moving on to lead, at 13v 10min i get:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead1.jpg)
the black means it's way over current'd.
i'm now attempting a 3V bullet.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead2.jpg)
3V at 20min.
It generally kept it's color much better.... but a lot rubbed off....
next one will be 1.5v.
i prolly need to use an acid etcher here soon or clean it better or something.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead3.jpg)
Some good success!
1.5v (one battery), 20min.
added 0.7 grains of copper. calipers didn't seem to notice any thickness differences so it's prolly very dense. it was also fairly resilient. (required metal to scratch).
i'll be leaving it to plate over night so i can reweigh it and take calipers to it as well.
---
Tonight was victorious!
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead4.jpg)
--
left overnight attached to a D-cell, it's now 11.6 grains heavier than it was as just pure lead.
it's still rough, but like the 20min thing - pretty solid.
measured at the base of the ogive above the lube band, it's .420 inches (from .401). and from the picture it's very sparkly. what's needed next is probably fluid agitation while coating.
but.... at 20min it seemed almost servicable, at 30 it probably is, etc.
-
I'll be adding some bleach or vinegar (one or the other) to the solution tonight. Supposed to make it easier to rip copper off of the donor easier so that it can plate faster.
Also going to pick up some lemon juice as a "not so dangerous" etcher (mixed with salt).
I don't have a proper acid neutralizer to work with so I don't wanna open up the HCl bottle and have an accident i can't fix.
-----
I'd appreciate some ideas on how to get the fluid moving / circulating.
There's the coffee pot idea that's on youtube and stuff... which... I kinda don't like (copper sulfate steam ? no thanks).
I *could* grab a small fish tank heater. That'll heat the liquid but not really cause any circulation. I also imagine if it cracked that'd instantly blow a breaker or worse >:D
I wonder if i have an old cake beater or something .... and i wonder how fast it moves on it's slowest speed setting.
----
of course, at 20-30min, i could just *stir* the thing.
---------------
Edit:
Currently this is where I'm at.
Solution:
* 2 gallons of distilled water
* 3 cups root killer
Power:
* 13v 3amp through 12v car bulb - this seems to attempt to plate too fast. Prolly way too much current
** adding an acid to the solution prolly helps
* 6v (4-D cells) - still seemed to plate too fast
* 3v (2-D cells) - also a failure, but quite possibly due to improper metal prep before plating
* 1.5v (1-D cell) - at 20min it had a nice coat. overnight it was a sparkly xmas ornament
* note --- i don't have proper amperage metering info yet :(
Process:
* Rough up the bullets with a wire brush
* Acetone bath for a few min (5ish)
* Distilled water bath / rinse for a couple min
* Plating process
* Distilled water rinse
* Pictures
----
Coming up:
* Vinegar or bleach into copper sulfate solution
* Salty lemon juice etching process before acetone
* Some way of circulating solution
----
Down the road:
* Need to run a batch of 50 or 100 bullets through the plating process.
** Sadly, the only lead i have right now is pre-lubed Missouri Bullet Company :(
** i *know* amperage will need to increase as increase surface area / deposition rate... and/or plating process will slow down. might have to fiddle with other power stuff when moving on to that.
* Would separating my anode into 2 opposite sides in parallel help any for a more even spread ?
* Heat the liquid ? coffee pot hack ?
* Silly strong acid etch
* tumble plated rounds for 5-10min in vibrating tumbler
** do they buff up pretty ?
** do they lose their plating ?
----
Consumable costs:
* Some copper for the anode. Should last a long time though.
* Distilled water (doesn't require much, $1 a gallon too)
* Acetone (doesn't require much either, $6 a half gallon ?)
* Etching solution (lemon juice or something).
* Electricity (either recharging batteries or DC power supply).
* Time
Hopefully this means that after initial up front cost and time of building the thing.... plating becomes almost free (outside of time)!
-
And just for some amusement and possibly other info. Grabbed a cheap $60 usb microscope I bought for work.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead-a1.jpg)
^^^^ This is a "smooth" section from the overnight bullet
--------------
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead-a2.jpg)
^^^^ this is a bumpier section , near base of the bullet, the blue band in upper left was apparently some bullet lube i missed somehow?! i didn't see it when i was cleaning :/. Wonder if it's copper sulfate related (the lube groove is where wire holding bullet was) ??
-------------
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead-a3.jpg)
^^^^ this was an area that i chipped off this morning on purpose (was a clump sticking out from bullet) Can see the straight up lead underneath and some of the bondings around it.
-
How about an air pump for a fish tank, or a very small water pump like they use for fountains or bubblers. Maybe from the garden shop at Menards.
-
kozball: yup, looks like air agitation will be just fine. have a friend that does the reverse (stripping instead of plating). i have spare aquarium air pumps for that :D
----
I'll be adding some vinegar to the solution tonight. Need to work out numbers for how much.
----
A neato and handy document for those doing their own research:
http://ixian.ca/gallery/albums/pics_documents/Copper_Plating.pdf (http://ixian.ca/gallery/albums/pics_documents/Copper_Plating.pdf)
-
I would be curious to see the surface of a commercially plated bullet under your microscope
-
Went to walmart, bought the under $10 single air channel air pump thing, some tubing, lemon juice, non-iodized salt, and vinegar.
will be posting more in a bit :).
----
Dan: I'll bring a berry's bullet to work tomorrow and take some pics. I'll also bring whatever i plate tonight.
----
edit: was single channel, not dual channel. with holes poked in tubing with hot needle, single channel doesnt seem to push enough air like i want. it's agitating, but not great.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead-5min-citrus-20min-c-cell.jpg)
brushed, 5min lemon juice + salt pickle, rinse, acetone 5min, rinse, plating for 20min on a C cell.
140.3 grains start -> 140.7 grains finish
start size: .401 -> .4015 to .4025
coating is fairly smooth.
---
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/lead-right-5min-citrus-40min-c-cell.jpg)
The bullet on the left is the one above, the one on the right was in the tank for 40min on the C cell.
It added 1.4 grains of copper, but came out .4020 to .4030 depending on positioning.
It's also got a slightly rougher finish.
Berry's does between... I think 0.003 of an inch up to 0.008 ? I'm still approximately 0.0015 - 0.0020ish, so i need to nearly double my plating thickness to get to where berry's is.
I'll take these to work tomorrow to see how they look under scope (along with a berry's).
---
I can't scratch either with my fingernail.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/berry-20min-40min.jpg)
Left to right: berry 125gr 38, 20min, 40min from last night (both 140gr 10mm)
these were in my pocket for the morning.
although the noses look dark, i believe that's just dirt / etc.... closer inspection seems still shows a copper look.
-
For Dan W. If there is something in particular or a different angle or more zoomed out or something ya want, lemme know.
These are the Berry 125gr 38cal. Close up, it looks a lot like it does the naked eye -- hammered into place or "pasted on like clay then cooked" or something.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/berry1.jpg)
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/berry2.jpg)
This is a plated bullet with or without the internal light of the microscpe thing turned on.
Looking at it - i wonder if my brush is way too harsh, which is what is causing the crystalization like formation when plating the rounds. The pot marks are also interesting.
Note: I don't believe the dark / blue-ish spots are lead. They might be , but i think that's just highly reflective copper.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/plate-light.jpg)
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/plate-no-light.jpg)
This is the same microscope I used to take pics of my failed brass i posted a year ago, btw. Handy little investment (i bought it for electrical engineering, but is helpful for this too).
Tonight - I'll be adding the vinegar to the copper sulfate finally. I'll also try to more lightly polish the lead before plating it (see above pics). Prolly need to grab some non-soapy steel wool. If none of this helps -- it'll be an aquarium heater.
I will probably also try throwing these two currently plated bullets into my brass tumbler/vibrator with corncob media for 5min and see what happens, etc.
-
unfy; I'm enjoying following your experimental journey, reminds me of one of my favorite quotes about Thomas Edison: about invention of light bulb; "I didn't fail, I found 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb; I only need to find one way to make it work." Keep plugging away.
-
NE Bull: yeah.... i debated not posting quite as much, but i figured showing my records of successes / failures / ideas / etc would be beneficial in general. It's also handy when I have a question and such.
Currently, I'll be adding just plain white vinegar to the copper sulfate. It's only 5% acidity, and i'll be dumping in a quart of it. That much extra water technically changes solution percentages, but since this isn't an exact science ATM (just plating lead to shoot out of barrels for plinking! heh).... not too concerned.
Supposedly, it shouldn't be too hard to find 'spirits of vinegar' which would be a 20-32% concentration ... which would be preferred... but walmart nor hyvee had it. And technically, sulfuric acid is ideal - but i want to avoid that if I can (still easy to get from hardware store or maybe automotive store).
I did take a sharpie and mark the side of my tub after dumping in the 2gal of water and 3 cups of root killer :).
------------
Looking forward to tonight with a finer brush / scouring pad thing and acid-in-copper-sulfate to see if I can get a thicker smoother plate! :D (acid too i guess).
Coworkers who work with their hands more than I do (i'm a programmer by day) were unable to scratch my plated bullets. One was able to crease it by running his nail sideways though. Progress! :D
I think soon... it might be time to try larger batches and actually use the scaffolding etc. I'll need either buy / get / make some unlubed bullets for that. Don't have a lead pot yet :(
-
Since I know nothing of what this involves or how it works, I am having a blast watching the progress. Thanks.
-
Dave B:
In broad terms it's quite simple. A salty lightly acidic solution, a piece of copper on the + side of a battery, the thing you want coded on the - side. Youtube has plenty of videos on home made plating stuffs that are real easy to do. I'm just taking it a bit beyond that for a practical purpose rather than a science class trick :P
There are safety concerns... copper sulfate needs to be treated with much respect (toxic... it *is* labeled root killer after all). Acetone... well.. everyone should know how to treat finger nail polish (avoid flames and all of that). So far, the acids I've been working with are household kitchen style. No pipe cleaner style stuff yet... so... the acids are generally safe as well (lemon juice and vinegar as of yet).
There's some attention to detail which any reloader would feel right at home with anyway :).
Hopefully I can get this ironed out and actually suggest a parts list and instructions so others can repeat it if they desire. Hell, I may even offer to sell Unfy Plated Bullets (TM) since the cost should still be much cheaper than Berry's..... and after trying mine - the client might get into doing it themselves as well and try new things so we can all learn from their experiments! :D
IE: nickel plating (not terribly difficult to do either from what I understand... just requires some prep work to get a replacement 'copper sulfate' like solution ... the nickel equivilant) !
-
I have no idea how the commercial bullets are plated, but is it possible that you could drop yours into a case cleaner and they would come out polished looking?
Fly
-
How about tumbling the lead before plating, that should smooth it out I would think too.
-
I have no idea how the commercial bullets are plated, but is it possible that you could drop yours into a case cleaner and they would come out polished looking?
Fly
They use much more narly chemicals and a rotating basket / drum kind of thing. I dunno if the weight of the bullets impacting each other helps smooth it out or not, but the more interesting chemicals is definitely beyond this project (I like living, thank you very much).
The rotating drum stuff -- if ya grabbed an old rotisserie grill attachment thing and built the basket to be your cathode source, this would be plausible. This would be an entirely separate project due to the extra engineering involved. Also, spinning basket would solve agitation problems.
As far as putting my plated bullets into a case tumbler or something AFTER the fact -- I actually plan on trying this. Subsequently, if I feel that maybe I need to do more than one coat of plating, a tumbler / vibrator cleaning thing is probably the easiest way to "polish" them for the next coat.
How about tumbling the lead before plating, that should smooth it out I would think too.
I believe the purpose of wire brushing / cleaning the lead prior to plating is to remove oxidation to make it plate better. This would also tie in with the etching step (ie: you also should etch metals and concrete before painting, etc). There is a noticeable shine difference between straight lead and freshly "polished" lead. Ya can hit your own lead with a wire brush (gun cleaning kit?) and see the difference.
Tonight's agenda:
Vinegar to copper sulfate solution
Finer steel wool / brushing of the lead
Skipping the brushing of the lead and trying just a lemon juice / acid bath etch.
Throwing last nights plated bullets into vibrating tumbler.
-
tumbling was relatively useless in a vibrating tumbler - the bullets are heavy and just sit at the bottom.
------
vinegar added
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/steelwool-30min.jpg)
hit it with steel wool gently instead of a stiff brush. was in salty lemon juice for 10min.
not sure what's up with the dark spot and stuff. maybe it was touching side of tank ? maybe i touched it too quickly as it came out of the tank ? i have no idea. there is a spot in the middle of the darkness that looks like lead.... and can be picked at by a needle like lead. ... really dunno what happened.
without the microscope .... this one definitely feels smoother even though it's at 30min.
-----
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/no-abrasion.jpg)
no-physical abrasion (but 30min in salty juice) attempt is plated for about 20min
it's not even at all, it's spotty, and flakey.
abrasion is required or a stronger or longer etching.
-----
hit one of last nights bullets with a wirebrush fairly gently (moderate?), and it didn't flake. it's sitting in acetone right now and will be attempting replating it in a bit.
-
second plating did well, 30min, added a grain.
roughed it up some more with steel wool, juice bath for 2 min, acetone for 4 min, back into the dip.
------
lemon juice is prolly not a valid etching thing.
.... looking at the HCl ... i *really* don't want to open that :(
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/3coats.jpg)
3 coats. i believe this is the 20min one from last night given first recoat weighing. its... smooth textured as well.
so...
20min
30min
30min
final weight: 142.6 grains (from 139.7? 139.6?)
final diameter: .404 - .405
that... gives a coat thickness of 1.5-2.0mm ....
for s&g i tried a single bullet with the 13v setup again. got the burned result again. whatever. that'll be more important when plating more (higher surface area requiring more power draw).
grabbed the other coated bullet from last night... steel wooled ... juiced.... acetoned ... and about ready to go all night on a C cell near the bubbly agitation stuff.
-
Oops, didn't have the cathode hooked up correctly. Soooo it bathed in copper sulfate for no reason all night :D
Re-acetoned and got it hooked up correctly, we'll see what a day of plating does.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/3plate-light.jpg)
The 3 times plated bullet under microscope with it's built in light turned on.
No pot marks, looks fairly smooth, etc.
Again the shiny spots are just shiny copper etc.
-
! SUCCESS !
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/12hr.jpg)
This is between 12 and 13 hours in the dip on a C-cell battery. Admittedly after an initial 20 or 30min coat the night before.
it weighs over 165gr (over 23gr of copper added, and yes i took the wire off before measuring it) and has a 0.428-0.430 diameter!
there *is* a tiny bit of roughness / crystalization looking stuff on the nose / tip of the bullet (as well as a tiny bit at the base), but.... it's not nearly as bad as the older overnight bullet.
and at 30 thousandths of an inch too big... well... thats way too much copper :). means the plating thickness is 15thousandths, which is twice what berry's does.
i am *not* going to strip the lube off of 100 or more of my MBC lead. and i don't have a pot just yet (work has offered a solder pot they're not using, so i could just start ladelling if i bought some molds).
so the move into figuring out how much power to supply lotsa bullets will have to wait.
stage 1 of the experiment is complete!
-
Do you have a way to section that bullet and measure the layer of copper? It might be interesting to see if the thickness varies at all
-
I made a device for anodizing titanium that may be helpfull. By using a variac (available at electronic supply or surplus houses) and a rectifier I am able to convert 110 volts ac to a variable DC current of less than a volt to 110 volts. If interested I'll try to get some plans & pics posted this week end
-
Do you have a way to section that bullet and measure the layer of copper? It might be interesting to see if the thickness varies at all
Sounds like you want rifle plinking ammo :)
I can't think of a way to do it cleanly. Most any kind of saw is gonna tear at stuff making it difficult to judge. Similarly, a break / knife is gonna bend / gouge stuff. I'll take it to work and ask people there (we do metal work along with embedded devices).
A case concentricity gauge or something similar (the tools to use to check how much run out case necks have etc) might be a good way of doing it. I don't have any such tools. Also, since you possibly still want to size the bullet after doing this operation, you will definitely want custom molds made that are a few thousandths of an inch smaller to handle the plating (this should make it even more uniform as the copper doesn't get squished into the lead).
The simple test would be to simply plate some rifle rounds and see how they perform. Takes a lot of guess work out of it :).
Once I have this fully up and running, I'll gladly plate some bullets for some people so they can see how they perform and such. Other than time, it's almost free for me to do. Note: i currently use the bullet lube groove to wrap a wire around to hold the bullets. If a particular design doesn't have that I'm not entirely sure on a good way to 'hang plate' them like I do.
I made a device for anodizing titanium that may be helpfull. By using a variac (available at electronic supply or surplus houses) and a rectifier I am able to convert 110 volts ac to a variable DC current of less than a volt to 110 volts. If interested I'll try to get some plans & pics posted this week end
A variable DC power supply with 1v-13v and 100ma - 2000ma would be ideal. A coworker was wanting me to make one or something similar. I don't even know if my DMM here at home has a good battery in it (I tried to get away from doing that kind of thing at home years ago).
As it is, I have plenty of batteries, and plenty of old wall warts to chop up if I need to >:D .
I'd gladly take a look at what ya got. Taking all ideas and all input on the project (well, almost all lol).
Similarly, until I get something nailed down...
http://www.amazon.com/MASTECH-HY1803D-VARIABLE-SUPPLY-display/dp/B005112A2E (http://www.amazon.com/MASTECH-HY1803D-VARIABLE-SUPPLY-display/dp/B005112A2E)
that looks to be an awesome way of experimenting with different settings without breaking the bank! >:D. After I actually get some casting tools and can work with large batches.... i'll be first just attempting what power sources i have available around me. Now that I know more about what I'm looking for, it shouldn't be too hard to know if it'll work within the first 20min.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/430size.jpg)
The way-over-plated (.430) bullet next to the 3 coat bullet.
People at work suggest a dremel to get a cross section. We don't seem to have the cutting wheel disc holder here... but I've got dremel + accessories at home... so if we don't find stuff here, I can attempt it at home.
Fun note: I actually had to take a pair of pliers and peel the wire off of this bullet, it was "electroplated welded / glued" to the bullet and the wire just broke trying to get it off :).
Oh, and no, taking .401 lead and plating them to .451 is not a good idea. At 25grains of copper added to this round, the copper is already around 17-18% of the bullet weight. If ya pass 25% of weight on the jacket, you're breaking the federal 'cop killer anti-armor handgun bullet' law.
-
ordered from midway:
lee pro pot 4, 110v 20lb
175gr 401 2 cavity mold with handles
401 sizing die (for going on top of press)
small bottle of rcbs case lube #2 (to help push copper through sizing die)
Should be here tuesday / wednesay of next week (20th-ish).
----
have all the safety gear and stuff.... will just need to dig up some wheel weights and paraffin wax now :P
----
was pondering to myself if i could figure out if aluminum plating was possible or something. this way i could take the molds sent to me and shrink them to make way for plating :D hehehehehe
that's probably entirely doomed to failure though... temperature stress and all that.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sep1.jpg)
I started to attempt to dremel it in half. got that far and the dremel cutting disc broke. took the moment to try to inspect it... but..... alas, the lead was flowing too much (heat or just cause it's soft) and was covering up the plated section.
i *might* have been able to wirebrush it i suppose.... but... instead... i struck it with a hammer moderately three times and it finally gave way:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sep2.jpg)
The first blow... did nothing. It simply didn't care. Second blow started it to buckle a bit, third one got to where we are.
So... i grabbed some needle nose pliars and pulled it apart...
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sep3.jpg)
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sep4.jpg)
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sep5.jpg)
The lesson here ? Copper's tough, and it did NOT flake apart or anything. If anything, it looks somewhat like some of the case-turned-into-jacket results (granted, this didn't go through nearly as much energy as those did hehehe).
a crude visual inspection looks fairly even distribution.
-
So now, is it okay if I send you 10,000 or so to plate for me?
Still fun to watch.
-
The reason I asked about checking the thickness variation is that I have read it effects the accuracy. When a bullet spins and the weight is not concentric, it can not stabilize in flight.
-
That is the reason Hornady sells seconds sometimes.
At handgun ranges, and rotation, how much do you think a couple thousandths would matter? I don't think it would affect me that much.
-
So now, is it okay if I send you 10,000 or so to plate for me?
Still fun to watch.
LOL
.... well... after i get some non lubed bullets (next week after pot & molds come in) .... i can get mass production tests underway. after which i can finalize my suggested / as is setup for others to follow.
i have *no* idea what requirements there might be for selling bullets or offering a plating service (ie: do i still need that $M general protection insurance policy ?!). but.... i don't think i'd have any qualms with offering to plate some for people so they can see decide if they wanna do it themselves.
dunno how many bullets my current setup can handle..... if i can get 100 bullets plated every 1-4 hours, i'll be okay with the results. i guess first step would be to eventually notch the copper pipe i'm using as a scaffolding cathode. that way i'd at least have a known mechanical-physical limit.
The reason I asked about checking the thickness variation is that I have read it effects the accuracy. When a bullet spins and the weight is not concentric, it can not stabilize in flight.
I believe the Speers reloading manual might talk about this. as might the Hornady. or vice versa.
I don't believe handgun it matters too much ? it might, i dunno.
If I could get a clean cross section, then maybe it'd be easy to get figures.
Easiest of all is probably to plate some, load'em up, and benchrest'em.
-
Some shopping for casting supplies. Picked up a few things plating related.
14ga solid core copper wire, $12 for 50 feet, way overkill on quantity. I don't have any left over solid core wire laying around, and I didn't particularly see any left over bits at the hardware store. This will be used to wrap around the bullet lube groove and then bend into an S shape to hang from the copper pipe cathode. (i've been aligator clip plus a few strands from other wire).
Some 00 sized/graded steel wool, $4 for it. 00 seemed to scratch up the 3-coat bullet just fine and shouldn't gouge stuff (forgot to bring lead with me). All the steel wool i have here at home is the blue soapy embedded stuff. fine to clean out a small bit of the soap then use on the lead for the small tests, but not so great for mass production.
Also, was running low, $8 gets 50 nitrile disposable gloves (dealing with copper sulfate after all).
---
edit: oh, just for s&g, picked up a $3 3.3v 350ma wall wart from thift store.
-
14ga wire is way too thick :(
difficult to manipulate, etc.
-
Grabbed a 50ft thing of Cat3 cable from hardware store for... $8 ? something like that. It looks to be 24awg solid core. Easy to strip (am i a pro meth-head now?) and makes a sturdy yet workable hanger:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/hanger.jpg)
----
for amusement ---- when i first started looking for supplies, i couldn't find a copper sheet / flashing / plate to act as a source of copper on the anode.
found nothing, decided to try using the hammered out tubing to see if it works etc.
well..... while browsing for other items of world domination, i saw this:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/ha.jpg)
i dunno i fit's solid copper or coated/plated or what (claims it is cast copper), but it's heavy enough to be. didn't pick it up, but it would undoubtedly need to be wire brushed to get any protective coating off and prolly cut into to see if it is indeed solid copper.
-
Here is the information on my anodizer.
-
Just looked at UPS tracking number from Midway. Everything arrives tomorrow. I thought I had more time to prepare! Eeek!
Notching the pipe with the pipe cutter and tesing hanging a bullet from it (worked):
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/pipehanging.jpg)
I spaced out my notches to be a lil over 1/2 an inch from each other. This gave me 96 notches give or take:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/notch.jpg)
Now on to the cat3 -- it has 6 wires in it, so i needed 17 sections (just so some extra). I made these a little bit longer than they needed to be, which is always a good idea:
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cat3a.jpg)
Using the tip of a needle nose plier, just nudge one end an opening and then pull rest out the other side, real easy and alot like crab / lobster.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cat3b.jpg)
Untwisting is a bit of a pain in the ass, but after getting one end stripped, grab with pair of pliars and scoot the rest off (sliding along copper wire) with another pair... squirts right off.
-
Here is the information on my anodizer.
What do you use for the variac and rectifier ?
Similarly, I was debating an LM317 to bring the 13v 3amp dc down to 1.5v or so.
And just for some math fun:
100 bullets is about..... 0.52 square feet of surface area ....which means to plate 0.001 inch of copper on to it would take 9.27 amp-hours. Since I want around 0.003 or so... I need 28 amp hours....
-
What about a battery charger for a rechargeable camera or something of the sort. I see my Gateway camera puts out 5 volts at 2.6 amps. They should be cheap if not free to get.
-
i have yet to see what happens when i try to plate ~100 bullets at once....
i do know that 3.3v 340ma was 'burning' the copper as it was plating.
using a resistor divider setup i got it to 1.6v but it wasn't enough current do any good (a D cell can put out 2amps if shorted).
lm317 is easy to wire up and can be done with alligator clips for the un-initiated... and i believe it can handle 1.5 amps no prob.... and available at radio shack.
i do have a $6 AA battery charger, but it does 2 batteries at a time, 2.8v 200ma.
The $20 charger prolly does better.... meh.
-
untwisted all of the pairs
stripped ends off of all of them
then pulled / pushed the insulation off the rest of the wire.
my hands hurt :(
one advantage of doing the pull stripping method -- it un-twists / un-kinks all of the wire :D
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/stripped.jpg)
-
Lee Pro 4-20 pot is here, along with molds, sizing die, and lube.
have a 5 gallon bucket of wheel weights as well.
tonight will be fun!
----
edit: forgot i didn't have a way of cleaning the lead to make ingots. can't do it in my kitchen for certain reasons. had to run to walmart and grab a coleman 10k btu camp stove and a couple bottles of camp propane.
----
edit again: it better not ****ing snow tonight grrrrr
-
The variac is a type 221B manufactured by Staco Energy rated for 120 volts input and 2.5 amp output. I found it on Ebay for about $15. The rectifier is a radio shack part #261-1185. It's rated at 50v and the biggest they had at the time. Most of what I do is less than 50v but I have run it higher with no negative issues
-
ghknives: tnx for info. after one or two plating attempts, we'll see if stuff is needed.
even doing it outdoors, making ingots out of the wheel weights... i can still taste that smell. blech :(
also, my original pot i was gonna use melted through (why does my lead keep turning yellow / blue ?!). so ended up using a wide thick skillet that... well.... was slow and a pita.
anyhoo, got 11 muffins out of it. plenty left in bucket too.
took a break, getting tired. casting bullets will have to wait until tomorrow.
note: sizing die punch pin doesn't fit under my LNL press shell plate. i will have to come up with *something*.
---
edit: updated to reflect too tired to cast bullets and punch not fitting LNL press.
-
woke up and swear i could still taste that nasty road grime >:D
tonight will be bullet casting and hopefully getting them into the dip!
*stoked*
---
I still lack a solution for the sizing die punch. I will prolly take shell plate off the press.... and.... figure out some way of pulling the punch back down manually. This is a definite problem.
Also -- re: punch -- i wonder if the thick part at the bottom....
(http://www.clarionledger.com/misc/blogs/Outdoors/babroom/uploaded_images/Leesizer-702058.jpg)
^^^ Stock image, not mine
The punch is the thing on the left (for those who may not know). I wonder if I can grind the thicker bottom portion down a bit so it fits in under my shell plate holder ?
-
after an hour trying to get my lee pro 4 20lb to cooperate outside ... and the lead still semi-solidifying along surface around the ring... and the pour spot always becoming solid....
i turned everything off, gonna let it cool for 30min, then try again inside with a fan for ventilation.
20f outside with a breeze just might be impossible :(
-
moved in doors with fan in window
cast went smoothly \o/
plating will have to wait, it's too late now.
-
Today at work was a company pot luck kinda thing. I made a ham.
Anyhoo, this morning while the ham was in the rotisserie, I went about attempting to rough up and wire hook 100 bullets I had cast last night.
I got frustrated trying to work with the steel wool, got tired of doing bullets one at a time with a brush, so I ended up just putting steel wool and bullets in a bag and rubbed / worked everything for a while.
It took 2 hours to rough up and wrap ~ 100 bullets.
So with how I'm doing things now, this might be fine for rifle plinking rounds... but for high volume pistol rounds.... this is way too slow.
To possibly speed up wire hanging stuff.....
* two wires running parallel
* twist wires
* put bullet at twist and curve wire around bullet groove
* twist wires on other side, thus clenching the bullet
* put other bullet on new side of twist
* repeat, repeat, repeat
this way, depending on wire thickness (for strength to keep'em from collapsing the wire), you can run several bullets in a line. haven't tried it yet, i know the 24awg i'm using for hangers right now is too thin. The 14awg might work or might be too stiff, I dunno. Hell, might even be able to just make VVVV shapes in the two of the 14awg wires instead of actually twisting it (and using thin wire or something else to clamp them together to hold the bullets).
This still leaves the time consuming process of roughing the bullets up.... which... if ya take a recently cast bullet and throw it into some strong acid, this shouldn't be a concern (ie: etch it).
I ..... don't wanna mess with the acid stuffs just yet though.
The rotating basket idea or something is prolly really needing to be figured out... this skips the hangers completely (although I do like the VVVVVV idea)
Anyhoo, the ~100 bullets in hangers are bathing in acetone while I'm at work today. When I get home, I'll get to plating them.
edit: i wonder if we go from mold -> quench in distilled water -> acetone bath -> the VVVV hanger idea.... if the entire etching / roughing up step can be skipped ?? They do come out of the mold very pretty.... and oxidation shouldn't be a problem at that point ??
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/100bath.jpg)
ok, so it's prolly 94 or 96, not 100... but they're all in the bath now.
hooked up to a single D-cell battery, and they're starting to plate (some random pulls after a few min shows this).
note: the hangers are a pain in the ass to work with. imagine 100 very pissed off xmas ornaments are thrown into a box with their tree hanger lil wires still attached... and then you shake the box up.
then you need to go through and detangle them without breaking the wires or touching the ornaments.
edit: they are easy to hang and such, but.... use an acetone and water container bath that makes inserting and retrieving them easier
*sigh*
Desparately need to try out the VVVV style thing (assuming the wires are going up and down the page, bend 2 stiff wires into this shape, with the bullets going in between the <>'s).
< >
< >
< >
< >
< >
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/2hours-d-cells.jpg)
2 hours on 2 different D cells (swapped out an hour into it).
The.... plating job isn't the greatest... but that honestly looks like it's cause i didn't rough'em up good enough.
in the mean time, attempting 20min on the 13v supply with he 80 or so bullets that are still in the dip.... to see if they burn or not.
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/100post13v.jpg)
^^^
They generally didn't mind about the 13v power supply. Maybe 3 rounds had some slight possible signs of burnage.... getting the agitation better arranged would prolly fix much of that.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/variety.jpg)
An example of the variety I achieved. 1 good lucking bullet, 1 that suffered a little bit of burning, and one that apparently didn't have good / any contact with the scaffolding cathode. There were several great looking bullets, lots of meh, a few burnt, and the lone no-contact bullet.
So.... what do I take away from this so far.
1) I need to probably get my agitation stuff better worked out (the little bit of burning at 13v prolly hints at this)
2) As designed, it seems to work well
3) the scaffolding is succeptable to some green corrosion
4) working with hangers is a PITA when doing it in quantity
5) the notching on the scaffolding cathode really did well for lining up the bullets
6) 00 grade steel wool is probably not course enough .... orrrrrr ... i need to come up with a better way of roughing up the surface. i FULLY ADMIT TO BEING LAZY ABOUT IT THIS MORNING and is probably why the plating quality wasn't perfect tonight
7) as a possible opposite of (6), a strong acid etchant might not be a bad idea
8 ) i want to try the cast -> water -> acetone -> plate with a few rounds to see how that performs
9) i really wanna try two stiffer wires in a VVVV pattern to see if they can act as a quick hanging solution
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/sized.jpg)
Took shell plate off of the press, ran the sizing die down as far as it'll go, put a big (as in diameter) washer around the punch just to make it easier to pull out.... and pushed a plated bullet through.
Yes I know the cast job on this particular bullet sucks, that's not what this thread is about >:D
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/flashing.jpg)
^^^
Roofing section of Menards. In the Bellevue store near Kennedy / Wal-mart, it's in the front left corner of the store.
At $30, its a bit over priced for this particular project, but i doubt you'd ever need to buy more. It's also a nice flat sheet that prolly does well at providing a great anode. I didn't see any single sheet copper flashings (only galvanized).
There are also the $4 deck/fence post caps that have copper tops. Would require some disassembly and they look like they might have some kind of coating on the backside of the copper....
-
durrrrr. well....
the wire VVVVVV idea is pretty much bust.
if... two .... "metal plates" came together to pinch a row of bullets in their groove... this MIGHT be a simple hanger system. but wouldn't want metal plates due to all the extra plating. two plastic plates or plastic dowels with a copper strand along one side (like a ruler).
it's a thought.
some kind of plastic basket like thing .... run some bare copper wires in it to an external something or another... bullets in there... and rotate.
i'll come up with a prototype simple things for both to test it.
automating the rotation shouldn't be too difficult.... if this works out nicely.
-
OK, Ima gonna jump in here for a second;
A work they have a 'vibro plate' I haven't looked closely at it but I believe they drop the pins in a metal basket in a solution of some sort that is constantly vibrating thus moving the objects around and not being plated together. (not my department, I just build what they plate) This is a large quantity at a time thing. Just an idea to throw at you and add to all they ones you already have taking up space in the noggin. ;D If some of the processes were not so proprietary, I'd say come and learn, but they kinda funny 'bout stuff like that.
Also I was on Berry's looking at Christmas deals and read that their bullets are plated and restruck, and after thinking of your picture of the bullet you resized (where it made the sides look smooth), makes me wonder if they strike them not only for diameter, but on the whole of the bullet to ensure proper dimensions all around. That might explain the 'hammered' look of their plating.
-
ne bull:
Yup, vibrating stuff is one route commercial platers go. Circuit boards are in a basket that rocks back and forth, and in general use - large rotating drums are quite common as well. All of these also agitate the solution as they move / etc.
Part of the malfunction of what I'm trying to do is..... getting a setup that is easy to work with, does a decent coat of plating, easy to do en-masse, and lastly is home-friendly.
Soooo... I've been avoiding buying specialty chemicals (re: easier to work with). I've been avoiding the strong acids and strong bases (re: home friendly). And I refuse to touch arsenic and such (durrrr heh).
----
The scaffolding and hanger system gives a 'decent coat', works for varying definitions of 'en-masse'.... but it's failing the 'easy to work with' bit.
A rocking back and forth basket used in circuit board stuffs really isn't going to work out for bullets. They would still need to be individually secured somehow etc.
Big rotating drum - this is the self contained stuffs of the big boys. Out of my league.
Slowly rotating basket - has possibilities now that I've gotten beyond my retardation of thinking I need a metal or titanium basket. A plastic basket with only a handful of wires ran around the inside dimaeters would do nicely. Would require some engineering to rotate the basket while it's in the liquid (does it need to be wholly submerged the entire time ? i doubt it).... and a powerful enough motor (or geared down enough) to rotate it. One hundred 180 grain bullets weigh around 2.5 pounds. Low RPM motors are fairly easy to find online and there might be store solutions as well (how slow do rotisseries or ceiling fans rotate???)
Vibrating plate - also has possibilities. Would I be vibrating the whole tank, or just the basket / plate thing that holds the bullets ? Can I build a non-metal plate with some spread out copper contact points ? How much movement is needed to keep the bullets jossling around ? How much do they need to jossle ? Again, working with around 2.5 pounds. I doubt a trip to Dr. John's to buy their cheapest feminine toy would provide enough vibration....
One of the reasons I'm trying to avoid metal baskets / plates / etc -- is waste of the anode material and other clean up concerns.
I am by no means an expert..... but...
Striking is applying a thin coat of something. Not a physical hammering. It's typically used as a 'glue' between whatever you're base item is and what you're trying to get it to bond to -- particularly if you want stronger bondings or if your base item doesn't like to be plated by your target coat. You can also apply an initial strike of something in order to improve the coat of your final (ie: the strike has affinity for both the base and final coats). *Maybe* you could also do a top coat of some other protective material as a top coat (akin to polyurethane ?).
Given that I've had a good coat of copper on my lead with decent bonding, I don't think an initial strike (of say, nickel) is needed. I believe a nickel strike would still require proper surface preparation (physical abrasion and/or etching). Again, I'm not an expert, but maybe a nickel strike would bond the copper to the lead better ? Completely out of my ass -- I'm not a chemist nor metallurgist :D
I believe the 'hammered' look of Berry's is due to being in a big drum or some other thing where the bullets are constantly tumbling onto each other during the plating process.
-
Hit dollar store for a couple collandars as well as a couple generic baskets.
Lowes was open until 6PM.... picked up a bunch of pvc stuff to build the thing to hold the baskets and such.
Now to actually construct it etc :D
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/basketfail1.jpg)
*sigh*
this was at 13v radio shack power supply.
tomorrow i'll rough them back up, and attempt it again with just a battery.
edit:
just flakes off. also - the basket is 1/2 or more out of the copper sulfate, dunno if that's causing a problem.
-
my hosting provider is being ddos'd or something... so images are attached
basket.jpg = the pvc construct with a couple of baskets tied together.
thin.jpg = 75min of freshly cast & brushed & acetoned bullets. battery powered. rotating the basket every 2-5 min. about 40 bullets.
So....
The support jig is just 1/2 inch pvc pipe. none of it's been glued yet since it's still prototype. The basket holding areas are 3/4 inch cross sections with bushings for the framing and no bushings for the spinny basket portion. the handle is just a half inch pvc with a 3/4" bushing that freely rotates and then a 1/2 inch end cap.
The basket is just a couple dollar store baskets with holes cut for the pvc and then tied together with wire. the turning mechanism has / pipe has holes drilled into it to allow the cathode wire through.
the basket has some thick 14awg (i believe?) wire, and some of the hanger wire spread throughout. i've noted some issues with the thin hanger wire looking black here or there, etc. I will probably take the basket apart and use a single 14awg wire to run around the basket a few times to offer better contact or something.
the coat looks kinda like crap on some of them. something to note, however -- it doesn't flake off while in the distilled water or drying it. so... it is applying it some what decently.
the coat itself is actually very thin as well. looking at the bullets through the basket was deceptive. using the cross hatch grippy area on a xacto knife takes the coat right off / cuts right through it. on the earlier bullets, it just makes shiny copper areas.
tomorrow, i'll work on improving the basket wiring. i'll then rough up another 40-50 bullets and try again for 3-4 hours.
-
Whew! There you are, For a day or so I'd thought you gave up or even worse ;)
-
If anyone was stuck behind a goldish ford ranger sunday evening that was going way slow on Kennedy or 2 (near neb city) - that would have been me. couldn't take it anymore and decided to go visit son in sidney ia :D
late start, but 40 bullets are in the hopefully-improved basket in the dip right now. gonna be a long night :(
edit: 2 hours to go.... they're still looking splotchy .... sigh.
edit: 20 min to go to the 4 hour mark... the coat is starting to look much better. i may stay up for an extra hour to see what 5 hours looks like.
-
5 hours... and... well.
the coat is better, but still far from great.
it's also quite inconsistent from bullet to bullet.
some pass the xacto notched handle test, others dont.
as a reference, berry's might as well had been cast copper :P
i passed one through the sizing die and didn't flake surprisingly.
bed time, i'll do pics and stuff tomorrow
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/basket5hr.jpg)
That's the bullets after 5 hours in the basket. Rotated every 2-5minutes, battery powered (switched out batteries half way through).
The coat is better... but still not great.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/misc1.jpg)
Left to right:
1) Hit with a wire brush very gently and it didn't flake or anything. Note *gently*. The single bullets at the start I could be as violent as i wanted...
2) Passed through sizing die
3) Example of xacto knife hatch grip fail
4) Just for fun - a well plated bullet that's been hit with a wire brush. Looks a good bit like a berry's heh.
I might take a break for a week, or I might try hitting both sets of bullets with some of the super fine steel wool I got and try plating some more.
Last three ideas:
1) 2 coats (a strike, buff, then the actual one)
2) aquarium tank heater.... my solution has got to be around 50-60F... which is too cold.
3) acid etching (still don't wanna! heh)
Stuff kinda not interested in trying anymore atm:
1) uhhh i guess only one thing -- the cast -> distilledwater -> acetone -> plating
quick edit : the copper wire of the basket appears to coat nicely. i wonder if the solution is prefering to plate it rather than the bullets ? would the basket be better constructed with a 'star of copper wire' in the middle, placing the bullets between it and the anode ?
meh, tonight i'll definitely be roughing up the ~80 or so bullets i have with the fine steel wool and attempting to plate them again.
i don't doubt that the aquarium heater is going to be a required purchase, and that a strike followed by the 'real coat' might be required.
if there was just an easier way to rough up the bullets. something like chucking them in a drill or even the foster brass trimmer seen in some of my pictures :).
-
both recent batches of basket bullets have been put through steel wool & acetone.
starting the plating process again. prolly gonna be another 4-5 hours yet again (damn these late nights, shoulda thought of that before starting it).
i'm doing both sets of bullets because i wonder if 40 wasn't quite enough to guaruntee that every bullet in the basket had a current path to the cathode.... ie: if there was just enough space around a bullet it could be in the basket but not touching wire directly or other lead(s) that were touching the wire.
i realize i have two different starting coat thicknesses... it was quite clear when hitting them with the steel wool. we'll see how it affects turnout in a bit. the fact that i don't think ANY of the bullets had a solid copper coat after the wool (and brush to get into lube groove) ... makes me really wonder about coat quality.
-
got tired. only did 2.5 hours.
more failure.
it's still kind of flakey, kind of splotchy (better though), and generally fails the xacto cross hatch grip test.
... so...... i dunno. will ponder tomorrow.
-
The variac is a type 221B manufactured by Staco Energy rated for 120 volts input and 2.5 amp output. I found it on Ebay for about $15. The rectifier is a radio shack part #261-1185. It's rated at 50v and the biggest they had at the time. Most of what I do is less than 50v but I have run it higher with no negative issues
Out of curiousity ... if ya run it at 1-5v, what kind of amperage can you measure out of it ?
-
Dug around work (we do video games / electrical engineering stuff)... and was finally able to find our DC voltage regulators (lt1084's). Grabbed data sheets, some application notes.... did some math ... grabbed some capacitors and resistors and stuff.... should have a variable DC power supply of up to 7A now.
Outside of a PC power supply, I don't believe I have any DC power source that can produce 7A, but ... whatever. It's a start and didn't cost me anything :D
-
First attempt at voltage regulator failed. It's 1 three pin doohkicky, 2 capacitors, and 2 resistors... but I've still somehow managed to **** it up. Ugh.
Tonight I'll be trying again.
Avoiding spending money at the moment, so aquarium heater will have to wait (as well as just outright buying a DC power supply).
I imagine once I get it working, I'll prolly re-rough up the bullets, throw'em in the basket, and see how they plate overnight or while at work (or both if necessary). Sure, I won't be spinning the basket, but... whatever, I just wanna see a thick plate :). And I know where the bullets are in contact with each other won't plate ... hopefully the air agitation will help alleviate general problems.
Unless of course I come up with a way to rotate the basket automagically.... (unlikely... don't think I've got a low RPM motor handy).
-
UNFY,
My son has a cheap HO train set that has a power controller/transformer that has connections for both AC and DC. 2 pairs of screw terminals. Says output 15VDC and 19VAC. The DC side is for the track, so it is variable. I guess that the ac side is static. Brand is RailPower 1300. FYI
Koz
-
koz:
holy!
actually.... that's... a fairly decent idea. wow. they look to be 0-14v dc, and some appear to be up to 8 volt amps.
that's... uhhh scary.
wow!!!!
i don't think i've got a spare train controller handy (i do have some really old ones from my papa ... but ... i refuse to tinker with that).... but.... still, wow. that actually might fit the bill nicely :P.
you wouldn't happen to know anything about electronics and keep multimeters handy so you could experiment would you ? :D
-
PM sent
-
gonna attempt dc regulator thingie a few more times and then decide what's next.
as far as a cheap motor to spin a basket contraption....
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_213488_-1 (http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_213488_-1)
looks fairly decent. it's 120v AC which is a plus, can move 3.5kg, and has a low rpm rate (6, which with belts can be made lower if desired).
here regulator, you and me are about to have some words...
edit: oh, above motor is only $13.
-
lower resistor values keeping approximately same ratio -- and booyah, 1.5v!
now to see how much power it moves.
-
from the 13v power supply, the regulator gets a little warm with just a min or two (even with heatsink).
but, i was at 1.5v around 0.13 amp with just a single bullet... and it did start plating.
i'll dig around for a high powered 5v power supply and see what i come up with etc.
so far so good.
i really do like the the model train controller idea, really i do!!! inexpensive, easy to get ahold of, and might work just fine!
I'm flooding the recent posts list, so i'll edit instead....
added a pot (thing with a knob) to be able to easily adjust output voltage.... works just fine.
i dunno if having more amps on the power source side would help or not... i tried increasing the surface area of what i was plating and current draw went up... so... whatever. i hate analog electronic stuff :P
the power source circuit i have is cheap to make (assuming you already have a dc power source like a wall wart that can push an amp or more), but will steal my friend's train controller anyway to see if current draw goes up and if it can indeed be used as a power source to begin with. i have no doubt that it will indeed work.
its late. depending on what goes on tomorrow i'll either do a long test of my power supply, or grab the train controller, or just be content with progress thus far :P
edit again: koz has confirmed his train transformer / controller will work.
doing some research, looks like it needs to be a DCC style compatible.
a quote from a transformer thingie description:
Appropriate for N, HO, and on 30 scale trains. DCC compatible. Includes speed control knob. Includes direction control switch.
-
made a bunch of lead ingots tonight from wheel weights.
did grab a small electronics prototype board to move my variable dc voltage supply off of the bread board and to something more perm.
while i was at radio shack, priced everything for the regulator stuff.... so can get that posted later as well.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/power.jpg)
^^^^
The DC <> DC power voltage regulator. input goes into one of the blue blocks, output comes out the other. whee! i'll draw up a schematic later as well as a radio shack shopping list (cheap).
have aquarium heater
have fresh lead
will prolly try plating tomorrow.
-
no plating attempts tonight.
cold weather + warm kitties = hibernation time hehe. slept in way too late.
Since I just placed an order for the low RPM motor i'll be using to turn the basket ..... this is the shopping list for the voltage regulator:
LM317T
* This is the voltage regulator itself
** the LM317 can handle 1.2 - 37v, up to 1.5 amp
** higher amp regulators can be had and are generally drop in replacements
* $1.59
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_898800_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_898800_-1)
** this is a specific part thing rather than 'pulled from left overs', and is generally suggested
* $0.35
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_23579_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_23579_-1)
** this is the 'swept off the floor' version
10uf Tant caps
* cleans up input and output voltage
* $0.49 each x 2 = $0.98 total
* https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_94060_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_94060_-1)
** ya might be able to get away with some 100uf electrolytics.. but ... tants are suggested.
100 ohm resistor
* half of the voltage divider logic
* You're technically supposed to use 1% or better, but i'm having no probs with generic 5%'s
** Sadly, buying a single resistor is about impossible. So, $3 gets you 100 of them
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_690620_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_690620_-1)
* For the thin metal film 1%'s, they're on sale right now. Ya can't get 100 ohm, but ya can do 150ohm (which is fine since we'll be using a pot to adjust voltage)
** $1.00 gets 100 of them
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2080497_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2080497_-1)
Potentionmeter
* this is the thing that will let you control the output voltage
* You'll want a 1k pot probably. At 1k, you get 1.25 volts out of the regular (assuming 100ohm other resistor above). For smaller numbers, your voltage will increase (so a pot that does 0-1k is ideal).
* $1.19
* https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_29050_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_29050_-1)
** this is largely a choice for you to make on your own concerning ease of working with, cosmetics, etc. you want to stick with between 1k and 5k pots tho
** and if you wanna be super fine controlled about voltage output, a trimmer would be great.. but.. .ya don't need that.
To-220 heatsink
* the regulator will get warm to hot, you'll have to cool it (passively should be fine)
* Two options, i dunno how much cooling it'll actually require.
* $0.29
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1)
** smallerish heatsink.
* $0.99
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1)
** larger heat sink... dunno if it's necessary
You'll also want some tiny screws and nuts to attack the heatsink to the regulator. Dunno if any kind of heatsink grease / compound is necessary... probably isn't really requied
Prototyping board
* you'll want somethign to attach all of this to...
* jameco, oddly, has a fairly crappy selection. i chose their bread-board like thing, which seems quite cool although it lacks mounting holes
** $4.95
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2125042_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2125042_-1)
* radioshack has the board i used in my photo above...
* something more traditional from jameco (with power/ground busses)
** $6.95
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_105102_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_105102_-1)
You'll need some kind of wire to connect all this together. There's the enamel coated wire (ya hit with soldering iron and it melts the enamel away.... or... in my case with the photo thing - i just used some spare copper hangers >:D
Terminal Blocks
* gotta have some way to connect other things to your board, no ?
* take a look through their terminal block list. It's all about finding something you want
** home -> inter connects -> terminal blocks -> terminal blocks
* They also have what i'm using:
** $0.29 * 2 = $0.58
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2094506_-1 (https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2094506_-1)
Totals for the above:
* $1.59 regulator
* $0.98 caps
* $3.00 resistors (100 of them, sigh)
* $1.19 pot
* $0.99 big heatsink (just for worst case)
* $6.95 prototyping board
* $0.58 terminal blocks
-------------------------------------
$15.28 total cost
Wire: i had already, whatever.
I had a lot of these parts already since it's my day job as well.... annnnnnddd... you still have to provide an already DC power source (preferably 5v or higher). And doesn't include a 'project enclosure' either. I can prolly build these things fairly cheap in comparison to $15, too.
Just about all of this can be had from radio shack as well.... prices coming soon.
-
Radio shack:
10uf Tant capacitors: $1.89 each (ouch!)
* can be found locally sometimes, might have to hit a few different stores
* online similar product: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12477093 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12477093)
100ohm resistors: $1.19 for a pack of 5-10
* online similar: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062315 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062315)
lm317t regulator: $2.99
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062601 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062601)
5k ohm pot: $3.19
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102789 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102789)
to-220 heatsink: $1.69
* online http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102856 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102856)
project board: $2.19 (the one i used)
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845)
terminal blocks: $2.39
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102861 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102861)
Totals:
* $3.78 - caps
* $1.19 - resistors
* $2.99 - regulator
* $3.19 - pot
* $1.69 - heatsink
* $2.19 - project board
* $2.39 - terminal blocks
-----------------------------------
$17.42 -- and you shouldn't need to to pay shipping :)
Again - you'll need to supply wire and screw / nut for mounting heatsink to regulator.
edit: most of this should be able to be found locally, btw. might have to hit up a few different stores though.
-
a while ago i picked up a small vice that ya clamp on to the edge of desks / boards / etc.
fiddling with it, looks like it might make for a decent holder thing to make bullet roughing-up quicker... or at least easier on the fingers.
-
Small AC motor arrived.
Non-linear physics math stuff is down right confusing. Using a couple different approaches, this motor is either going to be just barely strong enough to rotate the basket -- or it's going to need a 32:1 pulley system (ie: it's way too weak).
Got a lamp cord plug wired to it here at work, and tried to see if it'd lift 2lbs of weight all by itself, and it had no problem. I'll have a minimum of a 4:1 (prolly closer to 6:1 or 8:1 or maybe even more!) ratio at home, so I'm not thinking it'll have any problems spinning the basket. Yay! Only the moment of truth will know but still, yay!
--------------
cast a bunch of bullets the other night as well.
i have just about everything to attempt some long plating process stuff (including unattended). i've got a doc's appointment at 7am thursday morning (it's wed night as i write this) -- and i've managed to mess up my days and nights a fair amount lately.... so i dunno if I'm gonna stay up all night plating bullets or if just wait until the weekend.
-
stopped by menards and dug all around and explored a bit... trying to come up with a wheel / pull system thing for the motor etc.
ended up going with an 8-inch duct cap thing for $5, looks something like:
(http://stores.hvacexpress.com/catalog/End%20cap%20-%20no%20hope%20new%20picture.jpg)
it's light weight, fairly wide bearing surface, and seemed more than strong enough. I'll be using a bicycle inner tube as my belt. don't think i've got rubber cement atm so will just work with staples or something in the mean time. the motor side will have a 1/2 inch pvc plug drilled out and stuck to it.
this will give me about a 16:1 ratio on the motor to basket.... which should alleviate any concerns about motor strength... and with the motor at 6rpm, this means it'll now rotate the basket one revolution every ~2.5 minutes which sounds ideal to me.
also grabbed some 'value lumber' left over plywood and 2x6 to make a quick and dirty frame to hold the motor in place.
also pimped out NFOA to a gentleman who I was conversing with. i really should just head to vista print and have some of their free business cards made with nfoa logo stuff on it. i should prolly dig through the forum to see if Dan or someone has already posted a suggested look / logo / etc.
tonight i look forward to actually constructing all of this and probably also bringin all of the pieces together -- the variable dc power supply, aquarium heater, and basket spinning stuff. assuming it seems to be doing well for an hour or two, i'll probably kick the kitties out of the room and close the door while it plates over night hehehe.
-
skipped belt idea for motor -> big wheel. instead decided to cut up an old bicycle inner tube. wrapped it around duct cap and bolted into place... as well as putting some automotive weather strip adhesive to the loose end to keep it down. drilled and then xacto knifed out a 1/2 inch pvc plug to fit the [) drive shaft of the motor. just epoxy'd inner tube piece to the pvc plug.
cemented some pvc pipe together
cut down a small sheet of 1/4th inch plywood, drilled some holes, and zip tied it to the basket jig frame (the square box construct to hold the basket above / in the solution).
motor has two ear pieces with holes for mounting to a surface. hanging the motor from one of those, while the other side hangs loose. tying weight to the loose end to provide the pressure against the big wheel (motor is mounted near the big wheel edge area).
i didn't want to pvc cement the big wheel to the basket 'drive shaft' ... yet the basket 'drive shaft' was slipping. so instead drilled a hole perpindicular to the length of the pipe. screwed a long bolt through it with a nut so it acts as a T / finger sticking out. then drilled a hole into the big wheel / duct end cap piece and stuck another long bolt through that. the wheel / duct cap bolt is parallel to the drive shaft. it spins around and eventually hits the one sticking out of the pipe (in a perpindicular fashion), spinning the 'drive shaft'.
i'll have to head back to menards tomorrow.
the motor is hanging with the 'ear pieces' being 2 inches from the plywood. and... well.. the setup in general really likes to cause the motor to cant. i can permanently attach the motor so it doesn't budge, but since the pvc goes through the basket... i have to be able to easily rip apart everything to put bullets in the basket or get them out. being able to easily take the tension off of the big wheel / duct cap makes this much easier
a better basket would be cool heh.
the big wheel is also not perfectly attached to the drive shaft because pvc theaded connections only twist to about 1/2 way up the threads. i'm using some cut up inner tube to act as washers in this situation, but it's far from ideal / sturdy.
if i could get some really big washers to go around the pvc threads... it'd really help a lot... but... i don't have anything with a 5/8" or 3/4" hole right now. if i can get the wheel / duct cap to mount better to 'drive shaft', it'll help reduce canting as well (since the wheel / cap cants a bit as well right now).
with 100 bullets in the basket, and holding the motor flat so it doesn't cant, it can spin the basket just fine with no assistance from me :).
i'll get pictures tomorrow (sunday).
i really have to get the motor mounted properly, and preferably also find better washers (or similar) for the duct cap / big wheel mount.
-
Lotsa pics.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/motor5.jpg)
Above is an overview of the whole setup. The wood ($2) is zip tied to the frame. And some mess in my living room where i was building / testing the setup.
For the basket - I cemented the { } shaped things, but left the pvc fittings in between uncemented. With this basket setup, I need to be able to disassemble the basket.
Lastly, the pvc shaft between the }--- and the motor was cemented into place to keep it from slipping.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/motor1.jpg)
Above is looking at the motor / wheel stuff.
The duct / stove cap is 8 inches ($5-$6), wrapped in a tire inner tube (free or cheap). The center was drilled out to accommodate the pvc 'drive shaft' (3/4 inch hole). Some 3/4 inch washers (10 for $1.20) were used to help keep the cap from canting.
I drilled two holes in the side of the duct cap to give a perm anchor for the inner tube. Bolted tube in place and moderately stretched it around the circumference. Then took out one bolt, affixed inner tube end piece by reattaching it, then did the second bolt. For the left over flap, the 3m automotive black weather stripping adhesive was used ($6). it's possible the weather stripping alone would have worked, stuff is cool.. but... i like the positive attachment the bolts provide.
In the pic, covered up by the pvc threaded end piece, is the key / catch bolt to provide a solid driving force to the drive shaft (in case the pvc slips).
The motor is hanging on the left from one of it's ears holes. At he bottom of it is some failed plating bullets to provide the pressure against the big wheel. Motor has a 1/2 inch end plug covered in inner tube providing a friction gear with the big wheel.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/motor2.jpg)
Above is a close up of the motor mounting stuff. Quite sloppy, I know.
the far bolt acts as the swivel point for the motor. the nuts keep that side from canting away from the plywood. i can't fit a nut between the motor and bolt, so i can't secure it a specific place along the shaft, sadly :(
the near bolt has a few washers at a specificl place along the bolt. the washers act as a restraining plate to keep the motor from canting too much. not perfect but it seems to work well.
In the background, you can see the bolt sticking out of the drive shaft for positive torque transfer if the wheel slips on the pvc.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/motor3.jpg)
Above is the bolts holding the rubber to the duct cap / wheel.
In the background you can see the bolt coming out of the drive shaft again. Perpindicular to it, coming out of the flat part of the duct cap you can also see the torque transfer bolt mentioned earlier. if the pvc coupling slips between the duct cap and the drive shaft, those two bolts will catch each other.
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/motor4.jpg)
Another look at the small ac motor. Drilled out the 1/2 inch pvc plug to attach to and give a bearing surface for the motor. The inner tube fit nicely on it, but was slipping, so I epoxied it to the pvc.
You can also see the twist tie holding the pressure-providing weight :).
there are washers on both sides of the duct cap ... and 2 along the visible side you see here. i couldn't thread them on any further, and it seems to be quite snug as is. if i need to, i can add more washers down the line.
it's currently spinning bullets dry (just to see how it cooperates for longer durations). gonna work on getting aquarium heater into the solution and stuff right now to get it warmed up, and and and....!!! :D
-
Plating in progress with all of the new pieces.
Aquarium heater heating the solution to 80-90f.
Motor spinning basket.
Power supply spitting out ~1.7v.
100 bullets that took 80 min to rough up are plating \o/.
its 1 rev every 90 seconds or so. outside diameter of pipe and rubber and all. a little faster than i'd like but owell.
and i'm glad i'm paying attention to it for a few hours before going to sleep. motor spins the wheel counterclockwise, it just fell off it's threaded connection heh. retightened everything and will see if it happens again. dunno if i can easily mount it to make it go clockwise hehe.
i've pen marked things to see if it tries to unscrew itself again... might have just been due to me buggering with stuff (causing it to spin before hitting the cross-torque bolts).
i'll also be fiddling with the voltage a bit to see if i can get something higher that doesn't mess up etc.
edit: it seems to be doing fine now. and the wheel hasn't tried to unscrew itself either.
i will note that due to being rectangular, the bullets seem to spend a fair amount of their time outside of the solution.......
i spent like 2 hours wandering around walmart as well... trying to find some kind of container that was 9.5-10" in circumference and round. utter failure. the 3 or 5 gallon water heat jugs come close... but i didn't wanna spend the $8-$12 on what prolly wouldn't work out right when trying to cut it down heh.
paint cans, coffee, cans, nothing was right. a $5 salad spinner comes real close.
i'll have to keep looking... there's bound to be something. i basically want something i can take 1/3rd of it off or maybe even a large window into it i can remove. even if i have to cut zip ties every time, that'd be fine. ie: quicker bullet removal / insertion into the basket.
also - upped the voltage to 2.25 volts, seems fine and draws ~1.0-1.5 amps. this particular regulator (lt1084) does produce a fair amount of heat.... so... yeah.
re-edit, 2.25 might have been producing some burnage, dropped it back down to 1.75v
-
Unfy, I believe I will bequeathe to you my Golden Hatchet Award
( I was awarded it when I proceeded to weld up the ground off teeth in my pick-up's 4speed transmission. Hey, I was flat broke and desparate, and it worked, for a while)
After following this topic and looking over the last set of pictures, I think you are are more deserving. ;)
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE a good adventure in " Hey, I could build that! "
-
NE Bull:
LOL. And while tinkering / red-neck-ery is in the family... I tend to avoid it personally heh. Also.... I don't think I deserve it just yet... (and the welding of gear teeth is much more interesting IMHO).
Motor setup generally worked throughout the night. I did wake up once and noticed I didn't hear of the bullets falling around... went over and took a look....
The PVC plug on the motor had fallen off, and the rubber that was epodied to it was somehow inside out while still sitting there on the motor shaft. Really weird. Quickly re-assembled it (sans epoxy) and it was fine when I left the house to come to work (so still spinning).
Anyhoo, looking at the basket before coming to work, the bullets weren't shiny copper colored but rather that dingy coppery grey/brown. Some of the wire along the basket also looked a bit 'burnt'. So without actually taking anything apart to inspect the bullets - I'd have to say this was another failure :(
Power supply was still kicking out 1.7v, when the motor pvc plug had fallen off earlier, the basket was still submerged (and the bullets looked better too).
Soooooooo....
I have some kind of critical flaw going on.
Thoughts thus far:
a) my anode copper pipe hammered flat may not have enough surface area... meaning i'll need to pick up that $30 roll of copper roof flashing. have seen copper sheets as well, but they also run $30 and you get less material that's also harder to work with.
b) bullets getting lifted out of the solution by the spinning basket is evil maybe ? i have no ideas on how to completely submerge a spinning basket idea at the moment. also -- i wonder if a round basket would help or not (if they'd keep tumbling at the bottom or still lift up halfway. currently, when the basket is as deep as it can get, it's only a few inches in the solution.
c) as shown in the pictures, the basket is... well.. two baskets sandwiched together. the copper wire is "sewn" along the holes in the basket. This means that the copper wire is closer to the anode copper source than the bullets. I wonder if this can be causing a problem (the wire on the basket tends to look pretty good compared the bullets).
d) i've seen bullets occasionally get stuck in the holes of the basket. the little bit of lead exposed through the hole tends to plate decently. closer to the anode ? more solution movement ?
e) would a basket where the wires spread out in a star pattern from the 3d spacial center to the edge of the basket do better ? kinda looking like a big brush in the middle. this way instead of spinning around the circumference, there's 8 or more wires going to each flat surface of the current basket. would this encourage the lead to get more of the copper ?
f) what about using plastic window screen to construct a basket ?
g) i'm so very highly discouraged that this last endeavor didn't work perfectly :(
-
random other thought to skip the basket.
take a sheet of plexi.
half way drill out 0.40 inch holes (or whatever). throughout it, so it looks like a reloading block. prolly only need to be ~1/4 inch deep.
place the bullets, nose down into it these cavities.
another plate sits on top of this, with wire somehow sticking down so that it touches the base of each bullet.
this.... shouldn't be too hard to construct and should provide sure electrical connections to each bullet.. the nose of the bullet is unimportant for shooting (other than maybe the copper plate is more sturdy if completely incasing the round ?). you would, however, end up with a dot or something of unplated lead at the base of every bullet. since the base is the second most important part (other than the walls)... this... seems like a bad idea ?
it also wouldn't be too difficult to spin this contraption within the liquid ... like a washing machine.
i dunno, just so disheartened at most recent fail heh.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/fail1.jpg)
While at work, the rubber came off the motor pvc plug again... sigh.
The bullets themselves are above. Sigh. Just comes off with a brush or similar and isn't that thick.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/fail2.jpg)
My copper anode pipe has been eaten up hehehe. So yeah, I'll definitely have to get the copper flashing.
It'll be at least a week before I attempt anything again, just not in the mood now and have other things to attend to (ie: a kitty who is peeing pink :( )
-
It'll be a week or two before I get back into this project. Gotta wait till payday to get some more supplies (copper flashing primarily).
In the mean time... I have some questions!
Bullet prep time is insidiously long. Wire brushing or steel wool'ing 100 rounds is just not fun by any stretch of the imagination, and it takes forever. I've tried holding them in a vice... and that's nothing but failure. A grinder + wire brush wheel seems ... dangerous. I did pick up some dremel attachments... but... that doesn't really seem like it'd be much better.
Any ideas on how to more easily rough a bullet up physically ?
Does anyone have any experience working with moderately strong acids ?
Hydrochloric 30-some% is easy to get a hold of at hardware stores (near the acetone / spirits)... and sulfuric acid isn't too hard to find either (typically in plumbing in a black bottle in a bag).
The idea is to do a chemical etch instead of the physical prep. Since I'm coming from a bullet mold, everything should be nice and clean to begin with. I'm not sure if the physical roughness (groves etc) helps the plating or not (akin to roughing up a surface before gluing it) ??
I assume I'd want to plastic containers with lids... and something to act as a strainer. The idea being to place bullets + acid in one container, agitate it a bit from time to time... and eventually drain all of the liquid into the second container (with something to hold the bullets back like the strainer or lid). Then get the bullets into some distilled water for a rinse then into the plating solution.
lastly... any *simple* ideas for getting my basket completely submerged, or a different idea ?
i've fiddled with the idea of a cork screw style thing so that the motor is above the solution spinning the cork screw (ala washing machine)... but that doesn't seem like it'd really be all that great in practice.
although... one has to wonder.... what would a popcorn popper like thing work ?
(http://www.perfectpopcornpoppers.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_8/1097575893_4240420256_full.jpg)
something like that ?
i'm not entirely sure if the physical tumbling or movement of the bullets is causing problems or not, too......
-
next attempt will require the copper roof flashing stuff -- i don't doubt i have an anode surface area problem.
----------
popcorn popper idea prolly wouldn't work out too well.... assuming the fingers / rods are the electrical contact.... i can see uneven plating from bullet to bullet being all too possible.
a thought that prolly won't go anywhere -- take a bit of coiled steel / spring steel / wire stuff that typically makes up a plumbers snake.... and spin that within a pvc jacket (plumber snake is cheap, too heh). this way it's easy to redirection the motor drive down to a basket that's completely submerged in liquid ? i can see many hurdles to overcome with this idea... but... just throwing it out there. not only is there how to actually connect things, but also how to get the electrical wire to the basket. one advantage is it might be easy to remove the basket from the liquid and a smaller basket size ?
i primarily need a larger diameter basket at the moment so that the bullets actually get submerged (with rotational axis center being above the liquid currently)
-------------------
i dunno, something along the popcorn popper idea still seems like it'd be the easiest. well... something that flips the basket rotation 90 degrees that is (so that it's more like a traditional washing machine). just not sure how to get proper tumbling / electrical contact yet.
-
I've been following your bullet plating experiments with interest. My wife has one of these:
http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=14803572&RN=939& (http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=14803572&RN=939&)
It looks like you could drive the inner basket from the top pretty easily. It's not the cheapest, but it might work a little better than a POPCORN POPPER! :D Just kidding. Good luck.....you're getting a little closer all the time.
Ghost
-
Ghost:
Yup, salad spinners are interesting indeed. Over the weekend, when I was looking for just a generic round "basket" or tub to make a new basket.... I was seriously eyeballing the $6 walmart salad spinner. It was pretty close in most of the dimensions (don't think it had quite the diameter I was looking for though, maybe...).... but opted to just try what I had instead.
Coincidentally, the cheap walmart spinner was perfectly cylindrical shaped - it didn't taper toward the bottom. I also don't think it was quite as tall as the BB&B spinner (due to my current pvc construct, i've got a height limit of about 6 or 7 inches i think).
If ya take the salad spinners, and mount them on their side for use in my current basket setup.... I don't doubt that salad spinners (possibly without the outer shell, or with the outer shell mostly cut away) would make fine replacements for the atrocity i have now hehe.
Without changing their orientation (ie: just using it orientated like it is the pic in the link, and spinning it like it would under normal operation) ... i don't think there would be any tumbling effect for the bullets at all ? I think for salad spinners to tumble, they require variable / differing speeds to be applied so that the centripetal force and gravity causes things to jumble. Doesn't quite work out so well given the constant drive motor (let alone that it's a slow motor).
Popcorn popper -- heh, i know you were jesting, but the concept of how it tumbles the kernels was what I was pointing at, not the actual device :). Although - if i could put some bullets in a popcorn popper and get popcorn out... that'd be awesome. A switch to turn on the spinner for plating, and a separate switch for the heat ? ... ok, i really am a zombie / way too exhausted today.
I also wonder if a "bag" made out of plastic window screen.... which you then place on top of of something shaped like:
/\/\/\/\
or maybe just a cross shaped bar (an inch deep or so tall). Ya hang the bag on top of it so that there's a few inches or so of 'play' / 'sag' resting on top of the bumpy surface ... and then spin the cross bar or the bag. the idea being that the bullets will be forced to tumble due to the bumpy surface, and the bag keeps it contained.
if the bag is wrapped around rigid box with just a very saggy bottom... that'd prolly do fine.... with the rigid box frame of the bag being able to keep it from twisting in a knot like a sandwich baggy.
of course then the question is how to get electricity to the bullets. would a simple cross shaped wire near the bottom of the rigid frame work (assuming you have enough bullets to cover the wire even when sagging) ?
this device is horrible to try to explain in words, and prolly sucks to try to draw. i might try to make a construct of it later using legos and a plastic bag or something ... and take pics.
still also fiddling with an impeller / cork screw / something design. i just can't see it working :(
also, forgot who at the moment, mentioned the vibrating stuff. been trying to ponder how hard it'd be to mount an upside down vibrating brass tumbler/cleaner into the solution. the hornady tumbler comes with a strainer lid as well :P. it's an intriguing idea although i dunno how well they vibrate when inverted (nor how much vibration is needed) ... and... still debating on getting electricity to the bullets hehe.
-
Picked up the copper flashing. 6 inches by 10 feet for $35. Oy.
Also grabbed a couple 5 gallon buckets while i was there to possibly look into using them for replacement basket. If their diameter is too big... well... always handy to have spare 5 gallon buckets anyway heh.
Lastly, grabbed some non-metallic window screen for $6.
I'll start eyeballing stuff and deciding what to do next.
cut off a 5 gallon bucket, then cut the very bottom off of the other. drilled holes, etc.
prolly gonna wrap wire around the inside of it for first attempt. need to strip 16 feet of wire :/
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/5gal1.jpg)
constructing the next 'basket'.
i'll zip tie / copper twist tie the other bottom to the one...
along with the pvc holes present, i'll also be drilling more holes or cutting out more stuff along those walls so solution can circulate etc.
-
Been sick... using a dremel and such when not feeling well ... makes for ugly results. owell... functionality over aesthetics :)
anyhoo, basket is... at a point where i'm a bit confused on how to do something
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/5gal2.jpg)
i've also got the bottom of another 5 gallon bucket cut off to complete the basket, similar cross shape pattern.
fiddling with some sections of the vinyl/fiberglass window screen... i'm... not coming up with a great way to attach it just yet (so bullets dont fall out).
after i get that figured out, i can do another test plate with new anode sheet and new basket and stuff :)
actually, if i use that thicker copper wire or something to make the pie-shape outlines... and wrap the screen around the wire frame... and then zip tie the wire frame (with screen) to the bucket..... that... might work
-
screen idea didn't work out too well....
tried also cutting up some water jugs to make inserts.... first attempt failed (too flimsy)... will be trying again shortly (or with something else).
must attempt plating tonight!
-
Man, and I thought I was a hardcore tinkerer. You're taking this to a whole other level. Keep up the good work.
-
(http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/uploaded_avatars/avatar_868_1328293614.png)<------------------ that is a scary avatar dude
-
(http://nebraskafirearms.org/forum/uploaded_avatars/avatar_868_1328293614.png)<------------------ that is a scary avatar dude
LOL.... yeah... found it years ago as a joke for stuff here at work as an AIM avatar. Decided I'd start using it for other stuff as well :).
In other news... this weekend was possibly the laziest 'awake' weekend I've had in some time... up early, to bed early, but accomplished NOTHING the entire time.... other than watching the Puppy Bowl VIII on Animal Planet.
Well... not entirely true. I did razor-blade trim the edges of the pieces I cut out from the bottom of the 5 gallon buckets in prep for installing them back into the 'basket'. Gonna drill a bunch of quarter inch holes in the pieces, then zip tie them back into place. Should have taken me all of 30min to do (maxish?) ... but.. yeah... lazy weekend :(.
The goal is to at least get the holes drilled tonight and possibly put them back in place on the basket. Don't get me wrong, I still like the fact I cut them out... its just the easiest / free way to get sturdy screened-in-or-whatever things right now is to just re-use them. Guess my creative juices are running low at the moment heh. I'll also get everything ready for more plating attempts hopefully tomorrow night. I think I've got ~100 bullets to work with, if not I'll cast some more.
........
then again.... i might be a bit scared that the plating won't work.
* i've got a decent power source now
* i've got the aquarium heater getting the solution to 85-90 degrees
* i've got the 'big' copper sheets to be a proper anode
* i've got the air pumps for liquid agitation
* i've assumed my new basket is good
* i've got the motor for spinning the basket automatically
if.... this doesn't work.... i may be completely out of ideas.
Speaking of which, I think tonight I might also do a test plate of just a single bullet (hanging from a wire). Just to show that my setup still works. If it doesn't work -- it'll probably be time to toss out my copper sulfate solution (down the drain with LOTS of water, as per label) and get a fresh batch.... which will have to wait until this weekend due to $$$.
I can probably also dry-test my basket setup to see how the bullets 'tumble' and such.
**** IF **** the next mass copper plate test works, it'll be time to figure out how to more easily prepare bullets. That probably means playing with acid. Kinda nervous about that.
-
Work and real life has been somewhat in the way.
I zip tied the cut out bits of the bucket back in place after drilling some holes in it ------ i suggest skipping cutting it out and just drilling holes directly in the base of the buckets. I bought a couple extra 5 gallon bucks for if I decide to redo my 'basket'.
I now just need to prep some lead, get new copper flashing in place as anode and let'er rip. Been real busy at work (even working weekends) so might take a bit.
-
possibly last attempt at copper plating bullets about to start >:D
edit: well, about 3 hours to go to 24hrs
so far, the frictional gear system thing is the most prone to failure.
the rubber likes to get spun off of the 1/2" pvc end cap, even when epoxied into place.
it seems the coat might be okay, will know for sure later.
the new basket is great, it's a constant tumbling, bullets generally stay within the copper sulfate too. new anode seems to be good too.
if the basket stops for a long time (which it has with gear system failure while sleeping etc) ... ya get a copper 'dust' floating in liquid after things start spinning again. the coat is naturally uneven if this happens :/
if the coat is improved.... i will prolly try one more time.... need to fix frictional gear thing and i'll start with fresh copper sulfate solution. this session has definitely been encouraging.
-
complete failure.
-
Although this was a colossal failure, I really do like how the new basket turned out and how things looked early on.
The plating process seems to take a turn for the worse down the line, the first few hours of the process seem fine.
Prior successes with long plating times were all done with at least two passes. This would be akin to the 'first strike' mentioned earlier in the thread.
* want to try two passes
** just going off prior experience
** the prep for second coat will be roughing up with the fine steel wool.
* attempting fewer bullets next time
** mostly cause I'm lazy (roughing them up takes forever)
** but i wonder if the solution / setup just can't handle so many at once
** thinking 20 bullets.
* gonna dump copper sulfate solution and make new batch
** it's looking rather ick
* gonna change orientation of the copper anode so that it's less likely to get gunk on top of it
** right now it's laying flat along the bottom of the tub, has a film of ick on it
* friction gear was cooperating for last 5 hours of this last plate... so.. gonna leave it alone
** shrug
* will probably make a backup smaller-friction-gear thing
** just so if I do have to swap it out, i don't have to baby sit it
-
I'm still alive.
Been a bit busy with health related things. In late March, started walking 5km a day. For the last 3 or 4 weeks, have been going to the gym and weight lifting. Dropped my average and resting heart rate by about 10-15bpm, dropped my blood pressure by 20pts on both sides, and have been losing about 1.5lbs a week (currently: 191.6lbs).
I still have all of my plating material, all the constructs / jigs / rigs i've built, and all of that. I've even got all the consumable supplies waiting. I've just not had the time into trying plating some more. Hopefully soon :) ... I miss the smell of lead in the morning hehe.
-
Good job! Being in shape is the best investment you can make in yourself.
-
Thats great and all but get back to it, my days haven't been the same without my dose of UNFY the Science Guy.
-
In early July, managed to injure my back. A bulged disc. Has made sitting in a chair for extended periods rather difficult, let alone hunched over stuff poking it with things.
Getting close to winter... and the itch to play science guy is returning. Still have all my supplies, still have all my notes, etc.
Something else I'm gonna add to my winter experimentation is looking into building a case feeder for my hornady lnl ap as well. That's a back seat to copper plating though.
-
Glad you are back and hope you recover fast !
-
TY TY Dan :)
Gonna need to probably replace the plastic tank I was using last year. Could clean it out, sure, but since I've gone from 'zig zag tube with hangers off of it' to the basket.... not having a dimpled out top would be handy (given all the structural strength that's at the rim).
Might change the basket design a little as well, but will prolly leave it alone until get beyond 'step 1' again heh.
Problems that need to be addressed from last attempts:
* i never got a decent coat with the rotating basket
** fewer bullets
** maybe just a clean / fresh solution will fix
* the driver smaller 'friction gear' would fall off or similar
** no immediate ideas of yet
** reinforcing the bigger wheel so it distorts less would probably help
* post-cast-lead-prep is slow
** still have the option of an acid bath
-
I'm rearranging my web server a bit, images may be broken for a lil bit... i'll run through and edit prior posts down the line with updated URL's.
Edit: done
-
unfy:
Fuggedaboudplating!!!!
Go to www.berrybullets.com. (http://www.berrybullets.com.)
Buy some of their Gilded Bullets. [Over $50, shipping is free. You already know that fact.]
Now you will have Lots More Time for Shooting, instead of all these experiments where you learn lots but don't get shootable boolits.
You'll have Lots More Time to research something Really, Really of True Value to handgunners:
Namely, How to Get Lead Off the Muzzle Tip and Front End of the Cylinder for Lead Wad-Cutter Bullet Revolver Shooters.
Now that problem, Dear Friend, cries out for a solution.
And if you solve it, I will freely tell you what little I have learned about reloading .357Sig.
Do you realize I agonize every time your experiments don't work out??? Like watching the Huskers during the game with UCLA.
sfg
-
Easy:
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/solvents/lead-remover-cloth-prod4956.aspx (http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/solvents-degreasers/solvents/lead-remover-cloth-prod4956.aspx)
(http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/l_167022001_1.jpg)
I use that on my stainless S&W 686 357mag all the time.
Lovely stuff.
-
unfy:
You know, I really want to be a True Believer.........
But it couldn't be that Easy.
So far, nothin' in bottles, cans, pads, or brushes has ever worked for lead. Copper, yes. [Shooter's Choice]
Powder residue.......Good Ol' Hoppe's #9. [Anybody have any information on Hoppe's #1 thru #8??? Or WD1 thru WD39????]
But.........on Your Own Recommendation, I'll give it a try.
And report back. If it Doesn't Work, I'll tell you. If it Does, I'll tell the Entire Forum. Then Tom Engel and all those Lead Smelter-Casters can sell it in the package along with their cast boolits.
sfg
PS - You have the DeLuxe Stainless Model. Mine is Plain Ol' blued Model 19. If it removes the bluing from Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson, doesn't count.
-
I've used I think both the Brownell's cloth and I think the bullet hole provided cloths (I forget name brand there) ... they do work marvelously. Makes'er shine pretty with only 2-3min of work instead of hour(s) with a brush.
I think I've used it on my sig p229... and don't particularly recall any problems.
Do some research / reading of your own, and can always test it on a blue'd firearm piece you're not too concerned about ?
-
SFG: reading the label on the lead cloth, it does mention being careful with bluing. Heads up. Also, while around town, I did see a pro-shot (shoot?) brand that I've mentioned. It's the same cloth. Another warning, I saw a Hoppe's branded cloth that smelled different, so it's prolly made out of something else. Lastly, I also have some ... gunk in a small jar ... that smells the same as the cloth, so I'll assume it can be used with a cotton cloth in replacement of the impregnated factory cloth ?
These guys seem to have inexpensive swaging dies:
http://www.hawkbullets.com/swage-it.htm (http://www.hawkbullets.com/swage-it.htm)
I've sent an email inquiring how their jacketing dies work as well as questions regarding instructional docs / pics / videos. At $80 for dies to produce possibly 100x better quality bullets, it might make this copper plating venture moot :).
I'd still like to see this project reach fruition in producing a workable projectile though. Just to say it can be done.
Tonight I'll be picking up a bunch of distilled water and prepping for another go at copper plating again. First up will be cleaning everything I've got and testing a single bullet hanging from a wire again, just to prove the set up is still working.
I'm going to stick with just water / copper sulfateish solution this time around, skipping the vinegar and stuff. I figure it was contaminating the solution. Will be keeping the aerator and aquarium heater though.
I'll be heading to thrift stores and looking for some Pyrex for the acid etching step in the future. Other requirement will be a deep fryer basket / scooper thing made out of something that doesn't care about HCl to make it safer to work with. All this just to remove the time consuming wire brushing :(.
When taking apart the original basket as part of cleaning up work space, I noted there was plenty of copper coating on the wire that ran throughout the basket. This raises fears that copper on copper affinity might be making the lead plating harder than it needs to be.
I've still got my notched tubing for the mass-hanging experiment, and I'm still toying around with ideas in my head to make hanging bullets less labor intensive. The hanging idea has the possibility of keeping the lead as the primary electrically active plating surface, it just needs an easy way of getting bullets in the hangers.... all without creating a large surface area to suck up copper ions while submerged.
Using clothes pins... with metal attached to the outter parts seems like a very viable possibility. I... actually like this idea a lot and will fiddle with it when I get home, and post pics with what I come up with. This should make bullet -> hanger attachment real easy and quick although how to get close pin attached to electrical rail above the surface might be interesting. We shall see ;)
edit:
Talked a little with the folks at Hawk Bullets. Gonna get into a more detailed conversation next week (to avoid impulse buying a die set from them hehe). Looks promising and they're friendly :)
-
Before cleaning up the copper plating tub... ewwwwww:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/eww.jpg)
-
Some manual physical roughing up, half hour in the tub at ~1v with power supply, make shift clothespin thing that won't work out, single bullet plated fine.
Basket exposes a lot of copper wire to the plating solution, I'd love to get something hanger-related working without being a PITA to work with.
Wonder if some kind of plastic clothespin with a wire run down for the contact point would work out. If they made some kind of 'needle nose clothespin', that'd prolly be more ideal.
edit:
basically, if i can take a plastic clamp that does or can be modded to where it grips the lube groove... and run a wire down to that spot to provide the continuity...
plastic duck bill hair clips maybe ?
-
Took a refresher on HCl acid and was again humbled. That stuff just ain't friendly heh. Looks like a plastic basket is the way to go for possibly using it to etch stuff. Taking chances on non-lab equipment tools having reactive metals in it is just too great.
But.... further reading suggests nitric acid to etch lead. I recall seeing it in hardware stores, so that's a plus.
I dunno, the whole acid approach just seems... well... dangerously stupid lol. I think mostly because I don't have a way to safely store it.
I need a garage, gosh darn it hehehe.
Wonder if I can make steel wool gloves. Just rub the bullets in between hands for a lil bit, would make things at easier and quicker. Maybe something like gloves, layer of steel wool, layer of cheese cloth. I dunno, the whole physical abrasion step is irritating. Looking at the bullets before / after / etc, the abrasion is a possibly required step as well -- it seems like the copper better adheres to the lead when it's not an ultra flat surface.
Wonder if a small groove cut into wood or something would do well at keeping a bullet in place for a quick pass over with an abrasive pad / brush. Hmmm. That has possibilities. Similarly, if there was a PVC pipe or something that was lined with some kind of brush on the inside and ya just use a dowel to push the lead through ...
Can't go about tumbling them in some kind of acetone mixture with an abrasive. Dunno how you'd safely discard of the liquid mix after the fact (having lead stuff in it).
-
Had a crushing headache last night, so didn't touch it much.
A dollar store, a few grocery stores, walmart, walgreens.... and zero luck finding plastic duck-bill hair things. I did find some metal ones at walgreens though ::)
Grabbed some 1/2 inch pvc pipe to go with the other pvc pipe i've got... will just cut'em in half long ways and attach to clothes pins and try that out.
If everything works out, will just take pvc to work and use our scroll saw here to get a bunch cut down (assuming it's a PITA to do at home).
Tomorrow I'll talk to the guys at hawk bullets concerning their swage dies.
-
I think you need a new avatar:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Heinz_Doofenshmirtz.png/180px-Heinz_Doofenshmirtz.png)
-
Or perhaps one of these:
(http://bestuff.com/images/images_of_stuff/210x600/brain-from-pinky-and-the-brain-92037.jpg)
(http://ak.buy.com/PI/0/350/223661505.jpg)
(http://fionastaples.com/uploaded_images/drventure_web-722825.jpg)
kinda... large:
(http://wallpoper.com/images/00/27/71/37/dexters-laboratory_00277137.jpg)
-
After falling asleep in cot at work this afternoon, woke up at 7PM and decided to head down to Moeller Arms and say hiya and pick up an NFOA shirt. Met Rod & Koz, both nice folks. If ya ever get some free time, I'd suggest stopping by to say hi as well.
Then went to walmart to pick up a variety of crafting / popsicle sticks. Also grabbed some plastic silverware to possibly chop up if i feel froggy. I'm sure they make plastic crafting sticks i can fiddle with if this ends up working out.
Tonight feeling the SCIENCE itch and not suffering from a nasty headache, lookin' good for experimentin' time!
-
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp1.jpg)
This was the first clothespin / crafting stick combo. It wasn't fully stable though due to the shape of the wire that holds the bullet... so a small change and...
(http://www.unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp2.jpg)
Slightly fixes it, i really should still come up with a better way of forming the contact thicker metal thing wrapped at end of the crafting sticks... but... for now... whatever. I also went ahead and ran the tiny gauge conductivity wire to both sides (visible underneath a bit). The conducting wire is run along the top / slightly hidden from view. The tip i connected to the power supply can be seen sticking out the top.
Making sure to bend the wire a lil to be more of a C shape helped remove a lot of the accidental bullet-slip-out stuff.
Also visible in the upper left was a 1 hour plate test of the clip. There is some slight brown spots on it. These are where the tip of the craft sticks go beyond the the wire portion... which causes poor CuSO4 solution circulation (thus poor plating). Might be able to make the wire slightly better shaped to put more distance between wood and bullet.
The coat quality on the bullet itself is excellent (barring the problem mentioned above). The nose of the bullet has some of the 'crystalization' look that some earlier bullets had as well... so it's a thick coat.
* I'll simply break / cut off the bits of wood sticking beyond the bullet grabbing portion.
* Look into fiddling with the wire grabber portion to put more space between lead and wood.
* Connect a second clothespin so that the grabby hole portion of it is aligned in such a way that the bullets sit at the proper depth in the solution when i clip the second pin to the metal anode.
* Will obviously be running wire to the second clip for the anode connection etc.
All in all ? Much easier to work with. MUCH MUCH MUCH easier.
I'm highly encouraged.
-
Only place I could find a bunch of springy clothespins that weren't "crafting" and cost an arm and a leg was Dollar General 50 packs were like a $1.50. Also grabbed a thousand pack of zip ties....
Fiddling with the thicker wire in an attempt to make the C shaped bullet holding portion.... stuck a couple nuts in a vice and used bolts to make a jig... getting stuff consistent wasn't really happening. I'm wanting to make a " B " shape or something so that the bullet gets held in place via the joint formed by the curves of the " B ".
Along those lines, I wonder if drilling a small hole in the popsicle sticks and using tiny bolt + wingnuts would work. Eyeballed a few at hardware store today, but didn't have a bullet hand to confirm sizes / shapes. They have some pretty small ones, so I think surface area shouldn't be a problem. Can always file them down in size if I really wanted to (i don't).
Finding plastic popsicle sticks have proven quite difficult. The garden plant identifier stuff might have similar options though. Will do a quick check of a store tonight and see if I can get lucky.
-
If it wasn't a company logo, this would be real tempting for an avatar too:
(https://www.colonialscientific.com/OScatalog/images/ColonialScientificLogo.jpg)
-
Wingnut idea has definite possibilities.
I picked up wing nuts, some bolts, a grinder, etc.... but didn't have a slug of lead to base it off of...
Came up with:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/wingnut1.jpg)
Sadly, for .40S&W, this ends up being just a bit too big still. For 45ACP it's prolly the right size.
These were 8-32 wing nuts with some matching 1/2 inch long bolts ground down in length.
i can prolly hit the wing nuts with files or grinder to make'em better... but.... tomorrow I'll just take popsicle sticks, and lead back to hardware store and fiddle some more. Will prolly find a good size then look online to see about ordering in bulk instead of paying 40 cents apiece etc.
Looking at the existing wing nuts I have, they might be close to the same surface area of the bullet... which is definitely not what I want as well. But these are definitely very close to what I'm wanting.
Inching closer :P
edit:
oh, first stab at digging up some plastic plant label things as a replacement for wood popsicle sticks failed.
-
I may have to visit you sometime and watch this whole process.
I took a tour of Sierra's factory about a year ago. Very interesting and educational.
-
well, i've tried to get lotsa pictures so that people can follow along.
assuming i get something that is feasible, i'll build something less prototype-ish and actually something more 'production ready' or something heh. that'll be a little bit though. a video of the process would be made as well.
Current on the todo list:
* these clothespin hanger things are sooooo close to being solid...
** a plastic popsicle stick would be ideal... or some other plasticy whatever...
** i like the wing nut route cause it might make caliber change overs easier... dunno about .300 or .22 rifle rounds tho
** still kinda fiddling with wire based lube-groove grabbers just cause it has possibilities as well
** do wonder if thin aluminum/copper sheets can be cut to make the C lube groove grabber bits ? cut a thin strip, drill a hole, use a jig with a bolt/nut to bend it to desired shape and or possibly file it ?
** whatever i use for lube grabber needs to be something easy to recreate and consistent... the wire based grabbers aren't so much :(
* still need to come up with an easy way to 'brush' the lead
** plumbing pipe brushes only go down to half inch :(
** need to look into the steel wool mitt idea... its easy and might work ?
** dunno if a groove cut in a piece of wood to hold bullets while brushing them ?
** dunno if can build a wood thing that has a groove cut in it, lined with brush heads, then an identical piece with brushes laid on top of it to produce a brush 'hole' to dowel lead through ?
Assuming the clothespin idea works out...
* a wood or pvc rig built around the tank to hold the electrically hot rods the clips clip on to would be great
* copper tubing is cheap, but dunno if some other kind of rod / all thread / whatever would be easier ?
I'd like to re-visit my DC power source. Right now it's on the more expensive side since it relies on a $50 or $60 13VDC power supply that my custom thing then cuts down to 1-6V. I also have questions as to how much power output my custom thing can handle... while the 13VDC is putting out 3 amps, i don't think I get anywhere near that through my thing. 'trace' size or something might be an issue, dunno. I'll also look at sourcing other DC power sources closer to 5V with high amperage. 13->1 produces a fair amount of waste heat.
I forgot the guy's name (oops), but earlier in the thread he posted pics and schematics for a variac i think ? And Koz suggested a DC train transformer thing (although I've not seen one locally). A transformer + rectifier would prolly be easy enough to build for my own 5V power source, but with MPJA/Jameco around that prolly have cheap enough 5 or 3.3V power supplies... meh ?
Then there's the acid stuff. It's more or less a last resort though, simply due to how dangerous it is.
SemperFiGuy has one of my plated bullets just to see / hold on to as an example. Did show Rod over at Moeller Arms some stuff, including the cut in half plate thing that DanW asked me to do. Seeing how hard / thick the plate job is ... well ... it just helps to see it for yourself heh.
Buuutttttt... before most of the above:
after grabbers finalized, need to be able to plate, say, 200-500 rounds consistently
* batches of 25-100, depending on how long it takes to plate
* need to weigh before and after, to make sure each bullet is getting similar plating... this would basically just be a big spread sheet for before/after weights and differences.
they have to survive being put through a sizing die (already done a test size so am confident)
test fire my own 50-100 rounds from bags with barrel pics afterwards as well as target results
find a guinea pig or two to test fire a magazine or two
While I'll post finished plans, I can prolly go about building kits to sell if someone really wants a ready-to-go thing. I'll prolly price a kit anyway just to see what the initial outlay would be.
Lastly, when I do eventually talk to the hawkbullets die guys, a lot of this may be moot hehe. Swage dies are just sooooo cool. Being able to use old brass cases or some kind of tubing to form a jacket would just obliterate this plating project. And their swage dies are priced about on par with moderately priced reloading dies (rather than hundreds of $$$).
Similarly, might have to talk to Lee about getting some custom molds that are .395 instead of .401 or something. This way it just does better. Forgot what pricing on custom molds are ($70-$100 i think?). Although for pistol plinking rounds, that prolly doesn't matter. Rifle rounds would definitely want a smaller mold size so less chance of bullet deformation during sizing i'd guess ?
-
Westlake/Ace Hardware had some 6-32 wingnuts in quantity so picked up a box of'em and matching machine screws. $16 for 100 of both.
As far as the wingnut approach, it's looking spot on for 40S&W.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/wingnut2.jpg)
I have some concerns that the flat part of the wingnut at the 'vertex' of the U shape (if you will) ... that it might cause similar plating problems due to clearance issues (no plating will occur near that spot?). I'll go ahead and make a clippy thing and plate some lead tonight after work and see how it turns out.
Along these similar lines, I wonder if a V shaped thing (or even a more exaggerated U), with some possibly thin wire running between the mouth tips of the V would avoid this proximity problem.
Of course, then the question becomes how to construct this V thing. Using the stiffer gauge wire I've got would prolly work fine. Not entirely sure how to get it to stay perpendicular to the popsicle stick though. I'll fiddle with it while the bullet's plating tonight.
Edit:
Decided to not inflate post count... but...
plastic tongue depressors appear to be the way to go for a replacement for the wood popsicle stick.
http://www.dealmed.com/Tongue-Depressors-N-S-6-Box-500 (http://www.dealmed.com/Tongue-Depressors-N-S-6-Box-500)
And several other stuffs...
There's a few medical things in town, I'll check those. I'll prolly also eyeball walmart tonight on way home.
-
Walmart, Walgreens = no luck on tongue depressors. Will try a few other places tomorrow.
Did some plating tonight with a single clip. Copper don't like the wingnuts very much.. flakes off heh.
Clothespin setup is soooo easy to work with so far, loving it. Need to dig up some plastic stick replacements as well as look into maybe an alternative to the wingnuts (but i do like them so far).
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/wingnut3.jpg)
A completed clippy. The dark color of the metal is cause the copper didn't like sticking to it. The wire is run up to the secondary clippies grabby hole to make the conductive connection.
In the background you can see a bullet that was plated for 30min. The claustrophic parts can be clearly seen but they weren't that big.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/single-pin-30min.jpg)
A single bullet, plated for 30min using the pin (as seen in prev pic), then pushed through a Lee sizing die to .400. I tried to get one of the spots of the claustrophobic areas after being shoved through the sizing die. Some lead is visible. This is in two spots where sizing die scrunched it off.
Also, a kitty.
-
Might try Kubat Pharmacy 558-8888. or Kohll's , Kohlls.com, or maybe a Vet supply store. TSC ??
-
Looked around Kholl's near 52nd and L in Omaha, no luck (wood, but no plastic). Also tried Michael's on Cornhusker near walmart/petco in Bellevue. Lastly, tried CVS Pharmacy on Cornhusker / Galvin to no avail.
Kubat says they have a pharmacy thingie near 24th and L in Omaha, but I think that's just an in-emergicare-pharmacy or something. Didn't drive to the one down town. Will prolly give them a call on Friday / Saturday.
Kohll's website only lists wood, so that'll just be a no from them.
....
TSC ? tractor supply ? :) hehehehehe
I'll prolly just order them online if I find what I want in the next day or so.
-
Ya know, trying to hunt down this plastic stuff is irritating as all holy hell.
There are some that are listed as 'flexible', which makes me a bit worried.
And apparently some are used for facial stuff (ie: facial spatula).... a search for that turned up an appropriate image:
(http://c4.casa.com/images/products/p/wgr/wgr-044_1z.jpg)
Oh so rage worthy atm heh.
-
In the course of exploring ideas... picked up some staple gun staples from hardware store.
Using some pliers to form things with... it seems to stick on the wood really well. Very stiff. I don't foresee problems with it going flat against the stick etc. Granted, this is wood, and the wingnut version has already shown some signs of getting looser.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/staple1.jpg)
-
decided to cut up a plastic fork finally...
it's pretty quick to do, and... the results don't seem too bad:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp3.jpg)
now to see if i can figure out staple + plastic.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/staple2.jpg)
notching plastic with hack saw, then a file... it seems like it's very viable to use the staple.
-
Several pics in this update.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp4a.jpg)
^ This is this is the plastic version of the clothespin, also using staples instead of wing nuts. Off to the left is a bullet that was plated for 30min.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp4b.jpg)
^ This is kinda blurry, but it shows the bullet as it sits in the clamps, and it's being lifted off of the table. It's very stable contrary to what ya might think.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/single-pin-30min-plastic.jpg)
^ This is that same bullet rammed through the sizing die.
There's no lead spots, the two dark spots are where the staples were grabbing the lead. There's a matching 2 spots on the opposite side.
This was a HUGE success. Working with the double clothespin for the actual plating process is stupidly simple and zero hassle. OMG it's so nice compared to the wire hangers (not as cool as the basket tho heh... but at least THIS WORKS).
I will probably wait until friday and the hit hardware stores yet again to see what I can come up with for smaller bolt/nut sets for attaching the plastic, and if rubber washers are cheap. zip ties work, but i'd like something less prototype-y.
I do have left over bicycle tubing i can cut up, but would just rather not :P
Today (thursday), I'll be fiddling with steel wool mitten and stuff to see what I can come up with.
-
picked up a bunch more hardware (nuts/bolts/etc)... wanted smaller stuff for attaching plastic fork ends to clothespins. also grabbed a 17 drawer organizer thing from menards for $6... seeing as how i've kept all my hardware in a grocery bag. over the past year, i've collected enough to fill the fill it :(
cut off the heads of ~75 forks, gonna notch and drill them shortly.
steel wool mitt is a failure.
i've got a battery operated drill i might be able to use with a wire brush wheel or construct some kind of steel wool round thing for, i dunno. open to suggestions on how to physically rough up the lead prior to plating, tho.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cp5.jpg)
Final-ish clothespin design.
Two clothespins attached to each other.
One clothespin grabs the lead bullet via plastic extension and staple grabber.
A size 4-40 screw, nut, washer holds the plastic to the clothespin. The wire is also wrapped around this just to keep it in place. Has to be tight enough to hold plastic in place yet not split it.
Wire is wrapped and soldered to the staple grabbers.
Second clothespin is attached via an 8-32 bolt, nut, washer. Chosen simply because that's what I have spare of.
Wire from both plastic-staple leads is crimped between 8-32 washer and nut.
Head of 8-32 bolt inside the mouth of the secondary clothespin is what provides the electronic contact to the rail above the solution. The drill bit in the picture simulates this.
-
Over the course of the night and morning, assembly lined the clothespin clippy production while doing other stuff.
Going to bed, after i wake, i have one last step to do to each of them (attack the copper wire and solder it). that'll be 25 clippies plus prototypes made. will be time to cast some lead, rough it up, and plate a batch of 25 with before/after weight checking etc.
should prolly have used slightly different bolts/nuts for the copper rod grabbing thing, that required some wood filing due to larger size (doh). Used 8-32 (tis what i had handy), 6-32 or 4-40 woulda been better.
Picked up a couple things for possibly making lead roughing up easier, dunno if I'll fiddle with it immediately or after the batch of 25.
edit:
separate staples. a cheap staple gun woulda made this faster heheheh.
assembly line:
* using a template, mark plastic forks for cutting of heads, notching, and hole drilling
* cut off all the heads
* drill all the holes in plastic
* notch all the staple groves, i used a file.
* form staples into notches and for bullet holding
* disassemble 25 clothespins
* drill holes through mouth pieces to attach to plastic (not using a drill press, so easier to do single than while still assembled)
* using a template, mark 25 clothespin sides for drilling for attachment to second clothespin
* drill those 25 holes
* since i was using larger nuts/bolts, also file the area around the above 25 holes just a bit so the clothespin operates better
* larger nuts / bolts -> also file the opposite halves a lil for nut clearance
* disassemble 25 more clothespins, keeping it separated
* drill the hole into the mouth of each of them for rod grabby & attaching to original clothespin
* larger nuts/bolts, file the mouths with the new holes
* attach plastic extensions with staples to 25 of the original clothespins without the second hole
* attach second clothespin halves to the double holed clothespin halves
* now it's time to mate the two sets of plastic-extended clothes pinstogether
* just hold an already-plastic-attached halve to a double-halved one, and pick out a matching length plastic-with-staple unused piece to match in length so staples will grab evenly (even though from template, there will be slight variances).
* attach matching plastic piece to the double-halve piece
* attach the last half of the pipe-grabby clothespin.
* wrap wire around staples and thread to the rod-grabby nut and screw/clamp into place
* solder staple / wire connection. may not be required, but just in case.
The holes should be as uniform in distant from the near edge of the fork as possible. The notches should be parallel and equidistant from the hole. If using a template, this be the case. The notch depth isn't too important... that is, fairly deep notches didn't seem to hinder anything.
Some of my plastic staples are a bit loose on the plastic, they rattle ever so slightly.... in all honestly, it doesn't seem critical that they're absolutely firm in place... just so long as they don't wiggle more than 15-20 degrees probably. I used a single pair of decent needle nose pliers for the job. Broke 3 staples i think. You'll wanna attach the staples so the plastic side facing the wood always the same (top/bottom of the fork?)... just so it's consistent with the rounded molding of the plastic. One side seems to usually fit the wood better in the few brands i tried.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/25pins.jpg)
Cast some bullets, roughed them up with steel wool, weigned them, got them in the plating now.
Had a couple hangers break on me... one was a staple, another was plastic fork. Meh.
Voltage through the solution appears to be low, only 0.3-0.4v. Kinda weird.
A preliminary check at 10min shows that a few will probably not plate. unsure why atm.
-
3 hours, 25 bullets, 1.0-2.5 grains added to bullets. not nearly enough. 1 did fail to plate, dunno why.
left a solitary bullet in for another 25min, it added another grain of copper.
An approximation would be wanting to add 5 to 7 grains of copper to the bullets (looking at how these plated and how the extra grain looks).
I did a lot more reading, it looks like a sulfuric acid semi-based bath is easy enough to do and outside of acid handling and tank setup doesn't require any more stuffs. Just gotta substitute some of the water in the solution for battery acid.
Still not interested in fiddling with the acid. If i had a garage i would heh.
There's a lot that can be optimized about tank lay out now that I've seen real world stuffs to compare with the documentation you can read.
Tomorrow i'll attempt 25 more without my variable dc thing in the middle and just the full 13v-3A.
This will probably fail and I'll have to call this project closed due to not wanting to handle the seemingly necessary acids within the house (have pets).
The clippies ? EXTREMELY successful. Soooo much easier to work with. Dunno how they'd stand up to sulfric acid tho heh.
Next project after this will be either the case feeder or bullet swaging.
Edit
Actually, gonna go ahead and attempt to rearrange my plating tub a bit before giving it one last go. gonna aim for proper anode and agitation placement.
-
Went ahead and grabbed some battery acid from Auto Zone. $4 for a quart. This should be ~35% sulfric acid, which makes the plating better. Cheap, and if I decide to not to use it I can either do something else with it or neutralize it (or possibly sell it ?).
For the most correct copper plating solution given 2 gallons of water, i should need about 3 quarts of the stuff rather than just one... but.... I'm already uncomfy with using it as is.
I'll get my tub rearranged how I want it concerning multiple anodes and hopefully the bubbly agitation stuff where it should be... prolly try again.... and if that doesn't work out, debate if to use the acid.
If I do go the acid route:
Gotta pick up a bunch of baking soda to neutralize stuff...
Will have to test a bit of my tub material to make sure the acid doesn't eat it. Same goes for the air tubing. Assuming it doesn't, it'll then be a matter of letting the tub 'heat up' for a long time, removing the aquarium heater, putting acid in, letting it settle, and then another plating attempt.
Will also need to move my plating setup to a different room with concrete flooring and better ventilation.
If all else failed but the acid plating works... I'll be at a loss for what to do next. I can't leave the acid bath laying around the house due to pets so I'll prolly have to neutralize it :(. Best bet would prolly just wrap things up with a final post concerning the final setup, materials used, estimated costs, as much as i can remember for what i did, and suggestions on improving it (a more professional tank design comes to mind). Then there's always the option of fishing for someone that has a garage and willing to offer a 4x4 foot area for to continue the experiments in hehehe.
-
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/slag.jpg)
As a side note, when throwing failed copper plated bullets into melting pot, ended up with some neat slag ... and yes, everything was completely melted :)
-
Another failed attempt 15 bullets.
I will attempt once more in the next week then call it quits
-
I will prolly make another tub attempt sometime this coming week. The 16-18 hour work shifts are really putting a dampener on hobby time :(.
My next thought is kinda evil / interesting.... and I will undoubtedly attempt at least one bullet this way just because its an itch that MUST BE SCRATCHED.
What if you take a 2" or 3" PVC pipe. Cut it to about 3 inches in length. Cap one end. Line the inside of the pipe with your copper donor plate, fill with copper sulfate, and attempt to plate that way ?
This seems like a much more controlled environment.
At 3 inch pipe, a 1/2 inch bullet gives you 1.25" of solution between the lead and the donor plate, which is very close to the suggested distance. It's also a guarunteed thing assuming you hang your bullet in the middle. At 3 inches in length, you got 1.25" or so of copper donor plate above and below the bullet assuming you get hung in the middle of the pipe. This is also near the suggested stuffs.
Heating the solution ? yeah, can't do that in the individual 'cells' as it were :(.
Looking at my past plating results, agitation is definitely very important.... not quite sure how to do that in these individualized things just yet. Set a vibrator tumbler on the table next to it ? hehehehehehehe
For more extravagant attempts... you could possibly run tubes to the bottom or along the top to pump solution through, or air, etc. But.... yeah, no. I wanna see 1-10 bullets at a time work first ;).
-
Old thread, I know. Been busy.
I've got the 3 inch pvc pipe, i've got end caps (a dozen or so... will pick up more today) ....
Gonna grab some extra 49 cent wood to make a jig / miter box for cutting the pvc (aint got a band saw, darn apartment living!).
Also going to hit radio shack to pick up a small vibratory dc motor to see how it handles vibrating the pvc + water in side. Not an ideal solution, but it's a start and easier than other ideas i been debating. If the lil $2-$4 motor is powerful enough to vibrate 4 "cells" at once, that'd be cool.
Although, running air hoses to each thing wouldn't be terribly difficult, i'm just not a huge fan of trying to figure all that out for getting right amount of air agitation etc. The desire to avoid more aquarium air pumps or a normal & loud air compressor has something to do with it heh. We'll see how vibratory does.
Got distilled water, more root killer (the copper sulfate pentahydrate), and some re-sealable gallon jugs for better solution storage. Still have the sulfuric acid, but really don't wanna touch that.
Similarly, still have hydrochloric acid as a possible etchant for lead surface preparation, but really wanna avoid that as well.
Heating the solution I'm just gonna skip for now.
-
Hit Radio Shack to look at their little vibrating motors that were mentioned online. The descriptions on line (numbers about size) indicated it was pretty small.. but... actually seeing it is ... wow lol.
Motor + vibratory weight combined was the size of a 223 bullet.
Waaaaayyyy too tiny to be useful to me heh.
I'll keep looking ;)
-
If you are going to go the individual cell route, then maybe for agitation you could build a giant orbital shaker? Example of homemade orbital shaker: http://blog.makezine.com/2010/12/06/diy-laboratory-shaker/ (http://blog.makezine.com/2010/12/06/diy-laboratory-shaker/)
I did a little bit of searching and ran across a couple of things that may interest you. A homemade barrel plater looks like it might solve some of your problems, namely making contact with the bullets and agitating the solution. Here is an example of a homemade barrel plater with some videos of its operation: http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/shop_setup/plating_barrel/index.html (http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/shop_setup/plating_barrel/index.html)
Lastly, I did some searching on how other people plate copper on lead. I ran across a thread on caswell's site. Caswell sells plating solutions for just about everything and they have a support forum to help people get their stuff to work. In my research (I am a grad student) I have done some electroplating and have used caswell's gold bath with decent success. http://forum.caswellplating.com/electroplating-questions/12853-copper-plating-lead-bullets-produces-flaky-finish.html (http://forum.caswellplating.com/electroplating-questions/12853-copper-plating-lead-bullets-produces-flaky-finish.html)
The discussion has a link to a PDF outlining a plating setup with a tub, agitator, etc. I think the barrel plater is more elegant, personally.
The only downside to the caswell solution is of course the price and the fact that the solutions are proprietary. For example, they won't disclose the solution makeup, but disclosed that the gold concentration in the solution I used was 2 pennyweights per US gallon.
Hope this helps, good luck.
-
Rudy:
OooOooooo..
The orbital shaker as presented seems a bit violent for trying to keep a bullet dangling in place via either the clothespins things I've made, or even hanging by a wire. Bullet would need to be secured in place via stiff metal.
That said... a more tame version of the shaker might be possible.... I dunno. It'll require some pondering. Definitely something to think about :).
The barrel plater shown is an interesting approach. I thought about something like that, but went with the rotating 5gal bucket setup instead. It's possible that the drum setup caused the CuSO4 solution to become copper depleted within the drum and that there wasn't enough agitation to get a good flow from the copper donor plate.
I can also easily construct the barrel plater described in the video with all of the materials I have on hand.
I'll prolly need to decide between progressing with the 'cell' approach or this other barrel idea.
I've read through the caswell stuff, as well as the forum topic and pdf ya mention :). The caswell tank isn't too different than how my tank was originally (or latter with the clothespins) setup.
The tank with hangers does indeed produce a copper coating, but it's variable from bullet to bullet and the quality is generally lacking. Distances to anode plate and differences in the amount of agitation per bullet are undoubtedly the cause.
Also, caswell and most other places do indeed make mention of expensive addititives. Whether it be pickling solutions or brighteners or whatever. I'm obviously trying to avoid such things :). Sadly, no one discloses what's in brighteners :(.
Picklers are undoubtedly mostly just H2SO4 or some other similar acid (phosphoric comes to mind).
The barrel angled barrel setup is most interesting as an attempt. I'd need to switch to a smaller tank and construct dangler and other things... but that's all fairly trivial. I've also already got a decent motor for spinning things...
I love the thought of the barrel approaches due to "just dump the bullets in and go". There's so much simplicity there. Sadly, my results were quite lacking. Undoubtedly due to my barrel design and tank setup.
Individual cells seem to be easy to construct so far (barring agitation concerns atm) ... and seem like the easiest way to get reproducible results that are needed for bullets. The clothespins things made do make working with individual bullets (as a hanger) easy enough.
Decisions heh.
I'll undoubtedly construct a single cell, then a 4x4 grid of cells and give it a go to see what I think. There's no reason I can't also fiddle with the angled barrel as well (other than workspace considerations).
Something to ponder with individual cells... a 4x4 grid of cells is a little over a square foot... yielding only 16 bullets. A 4 foot folding table is typically 4x2, which would be 128 bullets which would be acceptable probably. Can always set up 4x4 cells and then stack them as well if needed.
Tnx again rudy.
-
If you do decide to go the individual cell route, I think it would work just fine without agitation. With no agitation you'd be relying on diffusion as the main source of mass transfer of copper(II) from the bulk of solution to the bullet/electrolyte interface. Hence, it would probably just take longer to get a similar amount of copper to plate compared to when agitation is employed.
I'm curious to see how it turns out. Thanks for posting your progress, it is fun to read.
-
I've gone about starting to make some of the cells.
I shoulda thought about stuff before opening my mouth on cell density per square foot. The pipe is 3.5" wide.. durrrr...
So can get 3x3 in a square foot with a couple inches of wiggle room.
Anyhoo, since I had four strips of copper already ready... i made four cells bodies. I have spare copper to make a few more strips (for a total of 6 cells) without having to cut into what's left of the untainted coil of copper roofing flashing. I'll need to hit ALL of the copper strips with a wire brush on a drill though... heh.
Immediate notes:
3" standard pvc pipe
Cut to around 3.5" in length
PVC primer/cemented one end of each with test cap (33 cents each at hardware store, they're not "for perm plumbing end caps").
pi * d = circumference = 9.43 inches, my copper strips were around 10 inches so they fit in nicely, and were 3 inches in width already (6 inch flashing cut in half long ways).
pics coming later
-
Do you use acid in any of this? I have a container of car battery acid that has only a little bit has been used. I'd donate it to you if you can use it.
-
I have a quart of H2SO4 from an auto part's store that I've not opened yet.
Trying to avoid acid if I can due to safety concerns.
At $3-$4, it's not that expensive either.
I'd suggest keeping your acid for a while.... if I make this work, detailed plans will go up and I'll prolly offer to sell kits :)
Just woke up, need coffee and gotta hit hardware store. Will make the last two cells and go about a plating attempt with just the 6. If 6 works, then 10, if 10 works, then 20.
100 is the ideal number to get to, 50 preferred, but 20-25 might be an acceptable number depending on how long it takes to plate for casual plinking (100 rounds a week).
Power requirements, revisited, are 12 amps per square foot of surface area. Each bullet is just under a square inch. This gets me 12 bullets per amp of power I provide. I might be able to hit 25 - 35 bullets with what I got, I dunno.
-
I doubt i would ever do my own plating. If you find that you might use this let me know. I have no need for it but just can't bring myself to dispose of it.
-
How does barrys do it? I was thinking they started with melted copper..
-
Berries undoubtedly uses a huge commercial rotating drum where the anode (source) is within the drum... instead of the other way around.
They also undoubtedly use neato chemicals i'm not gonna come within 5280 feet of (stuff like arsenic is common in plating)... as well as aforementioned acids and stuff.
buck: awwwww... buy if it works, it'll be easy and make for cheap plated rounds :P.
having been sitting with a drill and wire brush for a while polishing the donor plates is ... a bit harsh, particularly when some of the copper i was using was badly oxidized from a year ago (several thousandths of an inch of green crusty ick heh).
one more donor plate to clean up.... and then to eyeball old solution i've got laying around and then to decide if to make fresh or try to recycle.
er... doh.... will only be doing four cells tonight, forgot to cap the two cells cut earlier. oops.
-
Mixed up some fresh solution. No acid.
4 cells in a make shift setup... one of them doesn't have a hanger/bullet cause it wasn't plating for some reason... dunno what's up with that, gonna have to figure it out (either the bullet or the hanger i suppose).
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cell1a.jpg)
It was about 23min of plating... came up with 3 nice bullets:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/cell1b.jpg)
Wiped down the crud off of the donor plates, should make re-buffing them simple next time around (even a hand brush will prolly do fine). Looked very much like used toilet paper after an upset stomach...... *cough*.
Next up: 10 or more at once. It'll be a week or two though. Want to build some stuff to make it more friendly to work with (ie: get a whole saw attachment, some 1/4 inch plywood, etc).
Also going need to figure out a better way of hooking the donor plates to power. The small alligator clips aint gonna cut it. I like being able to take donor plates out and clean them, as well as being able to dump the copper sulfate solution back into an air tight container. There are some copper washers at the hardware store, or maybe just use the larger copper clips... I dunno. I'll eyeball stuff and ponder.
Something else I wanna ponder... since I'm going ahead with the plywood and stuff... I wonder how hard it would be to build something to make lowering the bullets into the solution all at once with power turned on simpler.
Will be replacing the copper tubing I'm using now with just some generic all thread or aluminum rods or something. Nice and rigid. Also, if its something with a flat surface, might make the clothespin clippy things stay in position easier.
If I take, say, some all thread posts going vertical.... and use a couple nuts to position the lowered limit ... place a hook ... errrr.... i'll have to just draw something. Anyhoo, ya got the 4 posts at the corners, and then hooks at 'raised' position and hooks at 'lowered' position, might not be too hard to just pick it up and move a grate populated with clothespins from up high to submerged position.
Kinda like adjustable shelving.
edit:
Actually a rope and pully system would do just fine. Here graph paper :P
While at hardware store, saw a 5-6amp 12v dc power supply for $20. cheap :). Was supposed to be for 'use your 12v car stuff anywhere!' kinda thing.
-
3.3v and 5v power supplies at decent amperage can be had fairly cheaply ($5-$15). It's something I'll be keeping in mind when upping bullet counts if I feel there's a power limitation.
As seen in the previous pictures, there's crud on the 'staples' that make the contact to the lead. Not entirely sure what's going on there or how to clean them easily. While they're sturdy enough, they aint super duper strong.
Also a fun note, the plastic fork/knife/whatever handles I was using ... don't like acetone :).
Still need to come up with a bullet prep "solution" (whether if it's physical or 'pickling'). I'll start pondering ways of safely working with acids that's as idiot proof as I can come up with.
Haven't really come up with a decision for attaching copper plates to wiring yet (that would make connect & disconnect easy for disassembly & cleaning). Decently sized copper clips seems like the easiest solution, but those usually aint cheap.
Something using copper washers, a bolt, and wing nuts might be easy, I dunno. Even soldering some copper washers to regular clips might work out. I'll look through the plumbing section of hardware stores for inspiration (lots of weirdly shaped copper pieces around there). If I trusted it, simply running a copper wire down the side of the pvc and let the copper donor plate "push" against it might even be good enough... but that seems to leave things to chance.
If i do something where it's:
__ <- copper plate bent to apply pressure against side wall
|
|/ |
|___|
I... dunno. Maybe. I'll have to look at stuff and fiddle.
I'm basically wanting to be able tear down and reconstruct the plating stuff easily. Take it apart and throw it in a big bin, and reassemble it easily. It's a desired goal for the project (means that it's easy to work with and not fickle... and can be stored easily).
Continuing to cut some sections of pvc pipe each night. It's annoying to do without a band saw heh.... so... spreading it out while pondering.
-
Found the answer to my dumb question - disregard this post.
-
So, walk into Menards today for a Valentines Day gift to myself (see my forum post signatures).... expecting to spend $40 and get out of there.
$125 later.... RAWR.
Ended up picking up a couple tools, so it's not that bad. Still frustrating.
Another 5 foot section of 3" pvc pipe. 10 foot is a good bit cheaper-per-foot, but kinda a pain in the ass for me to deal with.
3.5" hole saw and associated arbor. A drill bit for metal just to make sure I don't mess up bits I already have. Some wire crimper things for terminal lugs (i typically deal with electronics, not electrical).
2' x 2' x 1/2" (??) piece of plywood to make thing to hold cells in place.
Some 1x4's to frame it in, including some 1x2's to help frame... although thinking about it now, this might not be the correct framing solution for limited tools I have. We'll see.
Some more 1x4's for what I think be used to hold the metal stuffs for clothespins. Not going to go with a "lowering" mechanism just yet.
Six 2-foot pieces of 3/8's inch rebarb... just in case i decide to go that route for the clothespins.
Six 4 foot pieces of galvanized fence straps. About 1/4" by 1/2" by 4 feet. Basically used for terminating chainlink fence I think ? Was cheaper than the metal materials in the welding area. Anyhoo, cut into three of them in half (~2 feet each), these will be the power bus bars for the copper plates. The other 3 cut in half is also an option for the clothespins (instead of rebar).
For s&g, also picked up a 6 terminal (12 stud) terminal block, some C crimp on wire terminals. Dunno if the terminal block will serve an actual purpose.
Also some O ring crimp on wire terminals for use with the copper plate crimp things connection to power bus bar.
Lastly grabbed a few 4 packs of some regular stainless/aluminum clamps ($1.70 for 4 ?). Given their shape and size, and that they have a nut/bolt wire attachment ... they actually might do nicely. Kinda weird, but given their clampping mouths, I think it'll work.
Looking at copper stuff in plumbing - it's all copper plated which is useless for donor plate hook up (it'd just strip the plating off if submerged). There were some copper washers in the nuts/bolts area, but none were fender washer style so ultimately useless. There was some copper stuff in the electrical area, but it was over priced.
edit:
Tonight i'll start penciling in everything in the wood to see how it looks. Am hopeful!
-
I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units.
-
Do you actually find time to hold down a full time job :laugh:
-
I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units.
Har har ... not a meth head.
Speaking of copper....
The roll of flashing I picked up was 6" by 10'. That gets me 20 feet (240 inches) x 3 inches of copper donor plates for the plating cells. Each cell takes 9.5-10" of copper flashing. So... I can only get about 24 cells out of the $35 roll. Will have to pick up a second roll once I break over 20 cells at a time. Granted, since I'm steeling only a little bit of copper per bullet, each plate should last a long time.
Oh, 2' x 2' piece of plywood is 36 cells for what it's worth (one every 4 inches).
Speaking of wood... of course it starts snowing after I have a truck bed full wood and gotta spend a few more hours at work. Grrrrrr...
-
Do you actually find time to hold down a full time job
Reloading (and !!!SCIENCE!!!) and job take most of my time hehehehe. Am quite stoked to get the cell-holding-framework all built.
I imagine I'll hit a power problem and need to pick up a different power supply (and not one found locally sadly... but it'll still be cheap). I'll prolly also need to test it as-is and see if my voltage controller is required or not. It'd be kinda nice if it wasn't, I don't think what I've built can handle the possible high amperage I'll be needing.
Although, if you assume 10A per square foot....
10A for 144in
Surface area of a cylinder that is .40in wide by .50in tall is 0.88in.
10A / 144in = N / 0.88
10 * 0.88 = 144 * N
(10 * 0.88) / 144 = N
8.88 / 144 = 0.062
So I need 0.062 amps per bullet.
At 36 bullets for the 2' x 2' cell thing, that's 2.22 amps.
May not be a power problem, I dunno.
-
As is usually the case, drawing it out on the piece of wood makes for an interesting situation heh.
Perhaps it's just electrical engineer background, but a half inch seemed a whole lot bigger in my head than it does on wood.
Power bus bars at 1/2 inch wide will be interesting :P .. given that it puts them as a 'perfect' fit between cells... which aint cool.
Yeah, not happy.
5x5 instead of 6x6, this will yield ~ 1.25 inches between stuff.
-
wood framing for cells mostly built. picked up the wrong hole saw stuff, will have to grab a proper thing.
been a busy weekend with other stuff (friend having heart bypass surgery).
the move to 5x5 cell orientation is a bit curious concerning even power flow, but given the size of the galvanized thingies, it should do okay. 5x5 means there are 4 rods feeding 5 rows/columns... which doesn't spread otu power perfectly evenly.
for those with any electrical background, the galvanized whatever isn't a problem concerning resistance and stuff. its basically so thick / big that it's only 0.5 ohm from one end to the other. also given it's size, the power concerns should be moot.
if i have to backup and punt, can always use the copper tubing.
i've got... either 12 or 14 more holes to drill in metal for the base of the frame (power bus bar.... i've got one half drilled but messed up and need to decide if to keep or toss, prolly toss)... and the 25 holes for cells. then it's 16 wood screws to secure the plywood to the frame and 16 bolts for the bus bars.
At the moment I'll skip some concerns about circuit length concerning the bus bars ... can always use some wire to make sure they're all equidistant if need to.
Haven't put any thought into clothespin hanger stuff yet. want the base built and then i'll figure that out.
-
I hear that construction sites are a good place to get copper, as well as AC units.
Especially by those who shop at the Five Finger Discount Stores! :)
-
Got hole saw stuffs proper like, cut one, yay.
Need to wait until wake up before finishing off all the noisy drilling/cutting stuff.
Tomorrow night, the base should be 95% assembled (or completed).
Then it's time to figure out how wanna do the clothespin rods etc. Prolly just some 1x4's with notches cut in'em.
-
Tonight should be near final assembly of the base.
Holes cut:
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/25holes.jpg)
-
Hey Unfy,
Have you seen this?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further)
Casting boolits with copper mixed into the alloy. Sounds like you can push them to about the same velocities as jacketed.
-
bkoenig: i'll take a look at it... seems interesting. Just as a starting point - copper melts around 2000F. Far below the boiling point of lead... but still... erf.
Wood frame cell holes sanded out and base is assembled. Power bus bars are temporarily attached. Started working out power feed diagram stuff (25 cells, 16 points to attach wires... don't come out any kind of pretty / even). Power distribution / even feed shouldn't be a problem though. Was just wanting to be OCD about purty heh.
I'll be cutting wire and crimping on ends tonight to get all of the base-frame wiring done.... this should finish the base in it's entirety (unless I decide to put a thin coat of poly over it.... will need to sand a bit more first, though... and it'll be sloppy poly of an assembled product rather than individual pieces that are then put together).
No pictures yet, I'll get pics when done tonight.
edit: Looked up some stuff. From Lee, custom molds run $175 tooling setup plus the cost of each mold blank they mill for you. $26 or so for each 2-cavity mold, don't recall about the 6-cavity molds. So minimum cost of getting a Lee undersized mold is prolly $220ish including shipping.
Haven't talked to the chuck hawks swage die folks yet to see how much they charge for custom swage dies (for undersized).
Eventually, I really will need to insist on getting undersized molds or something... :(
-
bkoenig:
Looking at just the first page, it sounds quite cool. Might have to get our own thread going here for it. Too bad I don't have a second melting pot for testing this stuff out... but... do have campfire stoves that use the lil propane tanks... can just pick up a cheap & thick pot :P
For a synopsis for those not wanting to read: use copper/tin affinity to get copper to "dissolve" into tin at a relatively low temperature rather than melting point..... then add this mixture to lead to make your final alloy.
Where's all those old tin cans when ya need them :).
Pure tin looks to be expensive... $18 a pound ?
The babbits are a little cheaper... but... not by much for the higher tin content ones.
I'd have to re-look at the electrical sections at hardware stores, but I don't think there's much in the way of tin wires anymore... i think it's all aluminum now. Will need to confirm.
edit to avoid post count bloat: kinda hurt myself shoveling snow at work, going home early and prolly not fiddling with copper plating stuff tonight.
-
Okilidokili...
The frame is done as far as I can tell outside of some wire->clips for individual cells... whatever... I'll be heading to hardware store to pick up some cheap speaker cable or something for it. 14ga wire is just too stiff.
Ran through continuity tests just fine.
Top view of the frame, with a single cell sitting just to show plywood positioning. Power bus bars are visible and have some of the O-ring terminals in place just to make sure I had enough etc.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/box-frame-1a.jpg)
Underside view of the frame. The wiring mess is... well.. in an effort to try to keep all circuit paths equidistant.... heh. There's a single bolt running out the side (near bottom of pic) to hook power up to.
I probably could have done this a bit cleaner, but whatever.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/box-frame-1b.jpg)
As mentioned at the start, I'll be picking up some cheap speaker wire or lamp chord wire or something for the power bus -> clips for anodes. Really stiff wire would end up causing the clips to cant and other problems.
I'll possibly also look into using different o-ring terminals (smaller).
Next up - the clothespin scaffolding.
Oh, for what it's worth a friend pointed out the 'durrrrr' as to why the staple grabby things look like ass on the clothespins. Copper, steel, in an electrolyte. Durrrrrrr of course it's gonna corrode fast heh.
I picked up some hair pins made out of copper and some other stuff to experiment with if I have to.
edit to avoid post bloat:
Picked up some speaker wire.
Also went ahead and grabbed a $45 (on sale) cheap miter saw from Menards. I've still got a lot of PVC to chop up, and at $45 .... that's a fine investment compared to the time it'd take to cut it up manually. Not to mention the amount of back pain it'll save me from given my current condition.
Sadly, the hardware store folks are starting to recognize me :(.
Also - concerning bkoenig / bronze boolits: actually, if ya eat a fair amount of canned food... instant source of tin :)
-
last bits of base frame power stuff done. this would be ~5 inch speaker wire with a larger and smaller O-ring terminal on opposite ends. one end attached to power bus bar, the other to mediumish the 'charging clamps'.
8 1/4" miter saw isn't quite big enough to cut pvc in a single go, requiring two cuts to make it happen. blade shroud / protection thing also kinda gets in the way. so... pvc is cut although not as pretty as would have liked. Sanded edges a bit to help out (as well as remove burrs). Will be gluing test caps to'em shortly.
gonna go kinda more complicated than originally wanted with the clothespin holder stuff. picked up a couple 12 inch side drawer slides or whatever they're called (haven't had coffee yet)... will cut them down and use as guides. will use 'something' for hard bottom stops, but also use some gate latch things for the upper stops that should be easy enough to undo / lower.
Still haven't built the scaffolding for the clothespins....
edit to avoid post bloat (feb 25th 6am):
Since no major news, just an edit.
All of the cells are constructed. Takes a while to get price tag stickers off of so many test caps. I'll have to quickly sand down some edges of the glue stuffs later. If I ever start to make kits to sell, will have to at the very least set up a better way to hold the pvc so can make cleaner cuts. Although just opting for a 10" saw would go a long way as well heh.
Eyeballed the drawer sliders, should work fine. I'll have to work out measurements next. They'll cut down in size just fine, too.
I still need to figure out how I wanna handle the clothespin scaffolding in general. I'll prolly just build it and deal with improvements if I feel the need later.
-
Back pain is reducing... can hopefully get back to this project shortly. I have a general plan for the next bit of wood work.
Something I just kinda started pondering.
Is there a way to aluminum plate something ?
The idea is if it's possible to take an off the shelf bullet mold and coat it in something (say a spray or paint or plating more aluminum on to it) to get the reduced cast bullet size that'd be wanted.
Some kind of paint / spray that has to be replaced every so often might be workable.
A way to add aluminum to the mold via plating or something would be preferred possibly... assuming it doesn't come off due to heat differences with the lead etc.
Which, btw, makes copper or another material probably a no no due to thermal expansion differences.
Just a 'hmmmmm' thought.
-
Back pain is reducing... can hopefully get back to this project shortly. I have a general plan for the next bit of wood work.
Something I just kinda started pondering.
Is there a way to aluminum plate something ?
The idea is if it's possible to take an off the shelf bullet mold and coat it in something (say a spray or paint or plating more aluminum on to it) to get the reduced cast bullet size that'd be wanted.
Some kind of paint / spray that has to be replaced every so often might be workable.
A way to add aluminum to the mold via plating or something would be preferred possibly... assuming it doesn't come off due to heat differences with the lead etc.
Which, btw, makes copper or another material probably a no no due to thermal expansion differences.
Just a 'hmmmmm' thought.
Just from a quick google search, it doesn't look like aluminum electrodeposition is something you would want to do in your apartment. It can't be done from an aqueous solution, this paper says you need molten salts to do it: http://jmst.ntou.edu.tw/marine/1/31-37.pdf (http://jmst.ntou.edu.tw/marine/1/31-37.pdf) Other google results showed success with ionic liquids which are just salts that are liquid at some arbitrary temp, usually around room temp. Cool stuff, but I don't think you would be able to find these kinds of chemicals.
If you want to add some thickness to your die, I would suggest nickel electrodeposition. There is a lot of nfo out there about it. I have done some nickel electrodeposition on stainless steel rods for some of my research and it had good adhesion and mechanical strength. Getting the thickness right on the die would be tricky, though, I would think...
Edited to add: I am assuming the molds are steel, I've never used one. Is there a certain reason you would like aluminum? Are molds aluminum?
-
Rudy:
Yup, poured over google results as well. Some experimental ionic room temperature solutions that aren't available to simple joes like me.... and vacuum electrostatic ... and funky high temp salts etc.... yeah... no aluminum plating for me.
Do note that 'molten salt' doesn't necessarily mean 200-2000 degree salts... just salts that are liquid heh.
Lee bullet molds are aluminum. They heat quickly, are easier to temperature adjust (ie: damp on a sponge to cool), and seem to balance temperature better than some of the other molds I've tried. IE: iron / steal molds require more work for a non-mechanical bullet molding operation etc.
I'm weary of chrome or nickel due to thermal expansion differences (ie: wouldn't the plating just come right off when exposed to the 600-700 degree lead ?).
Something of interest to note --- automotive store & high temperature paint for exhaust / heads / blocks / etc.
Now, I *SUCK* using a rattle can so I would have ZERO chance of getting an even coat...
But it seems like a possibility ?
I have no idea how a high temperature ceramic based paint would handle metal thermal expansion ?
-
Oven / bbq paints seem to be up to 600F continuous... not quite good enoguh
The ceramic automotive stuff looks to be 1300-2000F.... but might need a primer, then color, then top coat. Dunno, will have to look into it a bit more for instructions. Seems like it's $9 a rattle can (for each layer).
If I had some spare molds I'd prolly jump on the chance later heh.
edit: there is a prior post i did just a moment ago on the tail end of the prev page... might explain a few things in this post heh
-
Hmm, interesting. I've never used any of the ceramic paint stuff from automotive stores, just header wrap and then the silicone spray on top of it. I know there are more exotic solutions, like ceramic coating. I'm not sure how those processes work. I wonder if they're similar to cerakote? Spray it on, then bake it? But like you say, it'll be difficult to get a uniform thickness.
-
When I get a bit of spare cash for a spare set of molds and the paints, I'd be willing to get it a shot. Will need a few cans of normal spray paint to practice on stuff with first for a while heh. Will also undoubtedly require masking off every part of the mold but the actual lead cavity ....
Anyhoo... fun fun.
Tonight I hope to chop up some wood and the sliding drawer brackets and HOPEFULLY get the clothespin rig built. We shall see :).
-
Drawer slides cut.
Bunch of wood cut.
Slides attached to bits of wood.
Tomorrow:
Attaching all of this to the base (prolly via bolts rather than screws for easy-ish dis-assembly).
Measuring fun for building the actual clothespin rod rigging/frame etc will be after that... and constructing it. Will be a fair amount of measuring for all of that :/ ...
Then figuring out vertical travel with stops and all that and.... then.... yayayayaya time to get back to actually plating heh.
-
Unfy, if it would help, I have most of a can of http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/ (http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/) this stuff, you could have (flat black). I used it on my exhaust near the exit, no prep or primer, or clear, and it has held up immaculently, even with my tire spitting crap at it. And I didn't see if you tried one, but I could probably round up a train controller if you wanted to use one.
-
There are some liquid masking products that might make it easier to mask off the rest of the mold.
-
VHT Flame proof is indeed something I was looking at.
Menards has some of the rustoleum 2000f resistant stuff for $5 a rattle can afaik.
That'll all come down later when I get a spare mold heh.
The liquid masking stuff is prolly something i'd definitely look at.
The top built / clothespin rigging stuff is mostly built. Well, all the wood work is done. I was off by a lil bit on a few holes so need to grind down the hanger rods a lil bit so they fit... drill their mounting holes (10 of them, takes a bit per piece of metal, and prolly will require two holes given 1/4" final size).
Need to cut up and crimp ~14 feet of wire for it all too.
Almost done!
edit:
Will be later in the week, back is killing me.
-
Semi-completed.
Might have to move the clothespin hanger things a bit, which will be fine / easy.
Might have to rethink the clothespins things themselves... getting a consistent clamp is kinda rough.
Anyhoo... pictures!
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/box-frame-2a.jpg)
Cups in place, clamps for copper anodes clipped to cup (no copper yet, gotta take a few min to cut it up eventually).
Clothespins hanging on hanger framework. The rainbow wire stuff is for equidistant stuff.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/box-frame-2b.jpg)
Demonstrating lifting the clothespin hanging stuff. Drawer slides on right can see the lifting whatever.
I've not come up with a clean way of raising / lowering it all yet. In due time.
Clothespins - I like them, I do. Possibly a bit partial since I spent a fair amount of time making them heh.
They don't make for a consistent grab though. While with fiddling they can all be made to be fairly centered, it's just not "rock solid".
edit (2013-03-07) to avoid post bloat:
Didn't see a whole lot at hardware store that looks to be of help to the clothespin <> bar clamping problem.
The |_| shaped aluminum rods in the welding section were too long in the 'legs' for the most part...
Basically, I'll try drilling some holes in the bars and using bolts & wing nuts to attach stuff to see how quickly that goes. Actually, I've got a spare that I drilled some holes in already that I'll toy with. Defeats half the purpose of the clothespins though.
Actually...
There's also something I can't think of what it's called.
It's V shaped. At the vertex/corner of the V is a hole. The legs of the V are held open by a spring. When you squeeze the legs together, the hole at the vertex gets bigger.
It's kind of like a quick release nut thing ?
Hrm.
I'll have to look at other hardware stores as well. I'm pretty sure there's something that can be done with a |_| or even just a shallow L bracket.
edit again:
'quick release nut thing' is actually a drywall anchor thing. i recall the cheap ones not having the screw plate in the picture of this item:
http://menards.com/main/storage-organization/closet-organization/shelving-hardware-brackets/hollow-wall-anchors-white/p-1656567-c-12645.htm (http://menards.com/main/storage-organization/closet-organization/shelving-hardware-brackets/hollow-wall-anchors-white/p-1656567-c-12645.htm)
edit yet again:
copper flashing all cut up, got 24 strips for 24 cells total atm. i might have been able to squeeze out one more for the 10 foot by 6 inch roll if this was the original plan.
looking at clothespins and stuff, i just dunno.
-
I think I worked out a solution the clothespin. Prolly over engineering, but whatever.
Gonna take off the top clothespin (that would clamp to the copper tubing originally).
Instead....
Well, currently using 1/8 inch thick by about 3/4 inch wide galvanized chain link strapping as the hanger bar. It's hung vertically (like | , not like -- ).
Anyhoo, picked up some aluminum edging that's L shaped. It's about half an inch long on the short leg and 3/4 inch long on the longer leg.
The thought, as it stands, is to cut the aluminum edging to about 1.5 inches in length... maybe 1.75. Position the edging so that it's like a 7 instead of like an L. This way the lip of the edging rests on top of the hanging bar. Attach the clothespin to the edging on the 'outside' ... like:
| ||---
| ||
| ||
| |
|@|
| |
[ ]
Then.... in the power bus bar, have to sets of screws attached about an inch apart for each 'clothespin hanger area' ...
__________________________________________________
|
| @ @ @ @
|__________________________________________________
The long face of the L/7 shaped aluminum brackets would be something like:
_________________
| ### |
| ___ ### ___ |
| | | ### | | |
| | | ### | | |
|__| |__###__| |__|
Where # = the clothespin. Basically, two grooves cut along the bottom of the longer lip.
This way, the 7 bracket slides over the power bar and attacked via the two screws with the slots. keeping it parallel to the power bar is done via the lip part of the 7 bracket.
Some wingnuts for each of the two screws for each each of the rigging bar (and matching grooves in 7 bracket). The wingnuts would never need to be fully removed, just loosened a little.
Now.... does it need to be two screws / groove lines ? Prolly not. I'll undoubtedly reduce it to one to save on labor and that I don't think it's really required.
Does it actually need to be wing nutted in place ? i think so - the clothespin is providing the electrical contact so... yeah. Now... if I used a bit of sheet metal (left over copper or something) to act as a leaf contact between the 7 bracket and the power bar... that would prolly make the wingnut unecessary. ... but then you run the risk of the leaf causing the thing to not rest properly on the bar or something.
How to go about doing this ?
I do have a dremel, but I'm thinking just drill holes at the stopping point in the 7 bracket, then use a mini hacksaw with a mini miter cut box to two lines down to the drill hole. Thankfully aluminum is soft.
Now, having learned what I have about myself concerning being completely and utterly unable to drill a hole accurately... this will all have to wait a week or so ... need to pick up a decent drill press.
edit: ps: ph33r mah ascii artz skillz
edit:
Actually, we've got some easily accessible drill presses here at work that look like they should do the trick for this one time use thing.
I will note, why on earth does the boss let folks beat the baby juice out of our tools ? I looked around the wood & metal working area of the shop and got sooooo depressed. Several drill presses that are chewed up / bad belts / etc.... spot welders that haven't been cared for... sliding power miter saws allowed to rust on the slide rails... a metal lathe that just breaks my heart. If I had a place to put it and the ability to carry it out the door I would *so* steal that thing and love it long time.
-
If you ever need some, I have some different types of copper.. like plate, bar, round stock
pretty cool `speriment ya got goin`there unfy...although I must admit them berrys bullets are looking better all the time ;D
-
Hank: well, my current setup is prolly the least friendly way of doing it... the alternate tumbler method mentioned by someone earlier is a possibility that I'd be willing to look at as well... *ASSUMING* the cell approach works.
Concerning copper source - I do appreciate the offer, and might end up taking you up on it :).
I've got all the lil aluminum L brackets cut and marked for drilling. Doing a single retaining "hole" instead of 2 just for simplicity. I'll have to mark up the galvanized fence tension bars / power bars / rigging / whatever for appropriate drilling as well. Plan on coming in to work on Saturday and drilling all the holes all at once.
Looking at:
http://www.tedpella.com/company_html/PlasticsChemResistance.htm (http://www.tedpella.com/company_html/PlasticsChemResistance.htm)
(or http://www.calpaclab.com/Chemical-Compatibility-Chart-s/789.htm (http://www.calpaclab.com/Chemical-Compatibility-Chart-s/789.htm) )
HCL and HDPE don't react... well, especially at the hardware store grade I'll be looking into using (30-35%).
Milk jugs are HDPE. I figure some milk jugs, some glass / pyrex additional containment safety and I should be good to go with pickling in HCL. I'll look around at other plastic containers and stuff at hardware store and what not to see if I can come up with something better than a milk jug.
Actually, plastic coffee cans are more stout and HDPE. As an assumption: food container plastic that is colored is quite possibly HDPE. Looking at the recycling mark tells ya what ya need to know :). Ya'd want 2 / HDPE. Larger scale: many 5 gallon buckets, smaller: the thick plastic coffee cans seem cool.
Need some white lab coat like stuff, some decent gloves, and I'll begin to construct the pickling tanks and stuff. Well.... *AFTER* i show 20-25 bullets plating successfully with just manual stuff.
As an aside, sulfuric acid (typically 30-40% in automotive batteries) is okay with HDPE as well.
There's also questions about cast -> water squelching -> plating at nearly all the same time and if it'd do for reducing oxidation concerns etc. Or if even the water squelch is necessary. I know that if left hooked up to the current and dropped into water, a lead bullet will immediately oxidize (even with no current flowing through the bullet itself).
Basically what I'll need to do is attempt some cast -> plate immediate stuff to see if the de-oxidation step is even necessary.
edit:
Well, the way i'm doing it now is theoretically 'least friendly'. All of the setup I've done for everything is on the more time consuming / complicated side... but will make the actual plating stuff much quicker to work with compared the very initial plan of bullets-hanging-from-a-copper-wire.
Cells are removable, copper plates are easily removable for cleaning, hooking up power to the copper plates is pretty quick (just some clamps), power stuff is all self contained and easy to hook up. The clothespins make dealing with individual bullets easy (i have some thoughts on that as well). All in all, it's come leaps and bounds compared to what the thread started out as.... and I think the current plans on attaching the clothespins to the rigging/power source will work out real nice as well.
There is near ZERO reason why I can't attempt plating this weekend.... an will be endeavoring to do so.
A power source is the current unknown for this setup, will take experimentation to find out more. Not overly concerned about it at the moment.
Concerning the clothespins....
There are the 'rubber dip' things for tool handles and heat shrink stuffs for wires etc. I do wonder if some copper strips / tubing cut a certain way would do well at replacing the plastic fork handles and using the dips/shrink for covering most of the copper stuff except contact points would be a nice option. This way less surface area gets plated, an easier to work with set of 'pincers' for the bullet holders, etc. The question that arises is how this other stuff holds up to being in an electrolyte and other such fun questions. Or, similarly, what about some of the neat paints ?
edit again: plain ole polyurethane may work for a coating as well (i dunno ?).
-
Speaking of copper sources, I melt down range scrap for casting and end up with leftover jackets. I wonder if that would be useful? It's pretty dirty, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem.
-
Speaking of copper sources, I melt down range scrap for casting and end up with leftover jackets. I wonder if that would be useful? It's pretty dirty, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem.
There was the post earlier (in this thread I think) of folks that are making a copper / tin alloy in their lead. Depending on how contaminated it is and if truly makes a difference, this might be a decent thought for that ?
Melt a bunch of tin, drop the jackets in, make the copper / tin alloy ?
This is all hoping that the tin has a higher affinity to the copper than the lead, thus stripping the copper attoms away for 'an atomic suspension' ?
Almost makes me wish I jumped on SFG's old melting pot when I had the chance hehehehe
-
Copper can be purified by electroplating with a controlled voltage and current.
-
Copper can be purified by electroplating with a controlled voltage and current.
*cough*
Aint that the subject of this thread ? :P
You'd prolly have to lay it in basket / wire mesh and attempt to pull the copper off the lead. Dunno what success you'd have.
I think I tossed the picture of copper plate shell crud bullets I posted earlier. I'll look around and see if I still have them. If I do, I can try to see if I can pull the copper off of the slag/dreft/whatever-its-called.
In other news, stopped by hardware store, returned stuff I've ended up not using and then bought a bunch more stuff. Really should just get a hardware store credit card heh.
Used drill press here at work (taking a small break atm in office) to put 25 holes into the hanger bracket things. OMG I love drill presses, even the kinda beat up one here at work (there's a lil bit of play in the spindle / quill when it meets resistance). Gonna have to pick me up a decent press for home <3.
Hit kind of a 'durr' moment after drilling out one of the brackets... but already have a solution to address the problem. Basically, machine screws don't sit inside the bracket (durrrr). so the bracket won't be flush against the hanging rod. Not a problem, already have a solution worked out (ie: a nut as a spacer).
Also picked up a small tap/die set with matching drill bits included. I've got one at home but it just lacks. Anyhoo, will be tapping one of the holes in the aluminum hanging bracket for attaching the clothespins with. Just because I can :P.
Also picked up one of these:
http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-cords/surge-protectors-and-power-strips/black-desktop-power-center-4-outlet-surge/p-1872665-c-6412.htm (http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-cords/surge-protectors-and-power-strips/black-desktop-power-center-4-outlet-surge/p-1872665-c-6412.htm)
Something like that mounted on bench either on it's side with included clamp or in a purpose cut hole seems mighty dandy. Sure it's for office desks, but on a hobby / reloading bench it seems appropriate as well :). And for $10, sure why not.
As far as acids: lots of HDPE / recycle-2 marked stuff abounds. I'll be taking a folgers plastic coffee can as the tank and then cutting up a milk jug (and putting holes in it) as the 'holds bullets and easier to move them between acid and water' thing. Well, that's the immediate plan as a 'medium sized' pickling bath thing. The smaller coffee cans are also purposefully neat looking and will just need to figure out a smaller bottle to hold the bullets. This would be the 'small sized' pickling bath thing.
Re-checked some of the high temperature paint stuff. $10 gets you primer and paint for rustoleum. I believe that's enamel based. The VHT stuff mentioned earlier (by someone else and myself) is ceramic based IIRC.... and prolly be closer to $20-$30 for both primer and paint. This will just have to be 'try it and see' on a spare mold set.
For amusement, the curing steps on the high temp paint include several 'bake at X degrees for 30min, cool for 30min' steps at increasing temperatures. Somehow I don't think this would necessarily be wise in the house. Will have to figure that out later (propane grill ? ... doubt a propane grill hits 600F though for the final step).
-
Aint that the subject of this thread ?
mmm... maybe I misread. I thought the subject of this thread was copper plating lead bullets, not purifying copper. I just wanted to point out that electroplating is the standard method for separating Copper from its contaminate metals.
-
Brackets all done.
While attaching clothespins to them... yeah... have to come up with an alternative to the steel wood staples... they just corrode to nothingness and the insane brittleness aint gonna help.
Cut up some copper sheet scraps to replace plastic and staples on the clothespins (no pics at the moment, sorry)... and there's a chance.
Manufacture would have to be:
Strip of copper, 1/2 inch wide, 6 inches long.
_____________________
| | |
| o (|) o |
|__________|__________|
The small o's are the small holes drilled for attaching to clothespins, the ( ) is a 13/32 sized hole (or similar... .40625 of an inch). The | down the middle is the cut line after all the holes are drilled.
Then bend the ( or ) sections over 90deg so as to make the grabbers.
I semi-constructed this already for a prototype, it seems like it might work. Not wholly convinced though due to the copper strips not having quite the strength to make a very strong 'bite' on the bullet.
Might be able to bend the copper sheets a bit to form a ridge down the middle or outer edges for increased strength, i honestly dunno. any ridges for strength make the 90 degree bend for grabbing portion a bit impossible ?
Now.... just to point something out....
a) if polyurethane doesn't get dissolved or affected by the copper sulfate
b) if the polyurethane does a good job at insulating stuff for reduced plating surface area
.... what about some other metal thing replacing the plastic, with copper tips ?
further questions arise from this though - is simple metal/metal contact outside of an electrolyte still going to have corrosion problems ? not really afaik. it's not a huge amount of current.
-
Wow.
Placed backorder @ midway for another 40s&w bullet mold (for the paint experiment).
Looking at ebay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEE-6-CAVITY-MOLD-40-CAL-10-MM-TL401-175-SWC-WITH-HANDLES-/140938089281?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d0909341 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEE-6-CAVITY-MOLD-40-CAL-10-MM-TL401-175-SWC-WITH-HANDLES-/140938089281?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d0909341)
6 gang, close to $200. I can't help but laugh and feel sorry for the poor bastards.
Haven't done much with plating at home.
Wandered around hardware stores for a bit trying to think of a way to handle the grabby bits of the clothespins. Nothing really struck me.
The copper bars in electrical (8 foot long, 1/2 inch in diameter?) appear to be the most economical price on 'raw' copper from a hardware store... was a lot of copper for $10-$15. Would need a method to flatten it into sheets. Know how such things are done commercially, but doing it at home... euhhhhh yeah sure whatever heh.
I've got a few experiments to try stand alone, we shall see.
Also while ordering stuff from midway, added some pvc gloves for working with the acids etc.
-
Did a test run with stuff how it is... was going to do 10 cells...
well... i really should have tested the cells first, had a couple leaks heh.... so only 8 cells.
Hanger thingies - i like. very easy to work with.
25min ... and.... quality wasn't the greatest. I'm gonna blame that on power issues primarily. Coverage patterns seem to suggest that at least.
Next attempt will be at the 13v/2.5amp unfettered output.
I'll prolly wait until figuring out more how I wanna do the grabby bits.
-
Oh yeah, concerning tin / copper suspension in lead for cast bullets.... did see some huge tin roof washer things, price was so/so and worth an experiment possibly.
-
The copper bars in electrical (8 foot long, 1/2 inch in diameter?) appear to be the most economical price on 'raw' copper from a hardware store... was a lot of copper for $10-$15. Would need a method to flatten it into sheets.
If you are talking about the round "ground rods" that they sell in the hardware store? I am pretty sure that those are copper plated - NOT solid copper. I dont think flattening one out to get copper will give you what you are looking for. I have not cut one apart, but I scrap a little copper wire myself and I know that those rods weigh way to much for the selling price to be pure copper. If they were, I could buy them for $15 at the hardware store and sell them to the scrap yard for $30!!
66bigblock
-
If you are talking about the round "ground rods" that they sell in the hardware store?
I didn't cut one while I was there, and I was figuring they were ground rods yeah. Price did seem off for pure copper, yes... but it looked to be proper, prolly just a real thick plate.
For grabby thingies... I think nylon or poly or some other plastic bar is prolly best bet. Something a bit more robust and normal sized (ie: a bar) than the utensil handles.
-
No all the "Ground Rods" i know of are copper plated not solid copper
-
Another alternative....powder coating bullets. I'm SERIOUSLY interested in this. They just look so purty.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html)
Sounds like a lot of work for handgun, but for rifle bullets it has a lot of potential. I have a toaster oven sitting in the basement that's never been used...
-
Another alternative....powder coating bullets. I'm SERIOUSLY interested in this. They just look so purty.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171403-Powder-Coating-Boolits)
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/395802_Powder_Coating_Cast_Bullets_.html)
Sounds like a lot of work for handgun, but for rifle bullets it has a lot of potential. I have a toaster oven sitting in the basement that's never been used...
I have a friend that does powder coating for a living. CrossLinc Custom Coatings (https://www.facebook.com/CrossLinc (https://www.facebook.com/CrossLinc)) is the name. Jeremy is a great guy. I bet he would answer any questions you had about the process or materials.
-
on page 4 of the powder coat thread, i'm intrigued.
now, i suck with a rattle can... and i have no idea if i could possibly get an even remotely consistent & balanced powder coat... but... i am VERY intrigued so far....
30 pages to go on the thread....
On copper plating... i picked up an 8 foot piece of pvc molding / lattice board. 1/4 inch thick, 1 1/2 inch wide. Cut it into a 3 inch by 3/8's of an inch little strip... it has possibilities.
-
Yeah, I'm definitely going to try the powder coating. I'm thinking stick them upside down in holes drilled into a metal sheet, then coat them. That would ensure the base is coated, but leave the lead tip exposed so it can expand. Some of the guys shows pictures of coated bullets they'd smashed flat with a hammer, and the powdercoat is still intact. It's tough stuff, maybe even tougher than copper jackets.
I'll have to start a new thread when I get everything lined up.
-
Just a pic of the clippies as they currently exist.
(http://unfy.org/misc/nfoa/plating/clippy-almost-there.jpg)
-
Hey unfy,
Got a $15 1.2 -30 v, 5 amp adjustable power supply with fan. Have you read the bullet plating paper on CaswellPlating website. The writer was using a kit, but there is no need to spend the money on a kit, but his bullets looked good. The trick to even plating seems to be low voltage, low current. I intend to build a holder out of a plastic cutting board.
$15 ? Wow. Where'd you get it from ?
I've read lots of stuff on Caswell's site. They tend to approach it from a non-mass-production-reloader-guy angle though.
Their kit usually involves a pickling solution (probably an acid...) ... and their CuSO4 bath might have additives to it that might be appropriate for "professional copper plating" (including stuff for PCB's and stuff). Brightners and other such things. Not sure what the contents of the brighteners and other additives are... no one seems to discuss them. Part of making money I suppose.
I believe my home made variable DC power supply is a bit under powered for what I'm trying to do. I'll have to fiddle with it some more, and I'll have to also try flat out ~12v 2amps to see what I get. Do note that the plating folks have their own idea of what "low voltage" and "low amperage" means.
I think my variable power supply on last attempt was ~1v at 0.2 or 0.3 amps. Coat quality was rubbish on 10 bullets (but does fine for 3). The coat quality and timing also suggests it's a power issue not just a 'didnt leave them in long enough'.
As far as 'own terms' - for them, low voltage could mean anywhere from 1 to 16 volts, and low amperage could be anywhere from 1.0 to 30.0 amps.
A plastic cutting board is indeed a decent idea for holder stuff, maybe. If ya could draw something on paper and post a pic of it ? Or ?
Also... while I'm having more success with the individual cell approach - building it is a lot more labor intensive, and although the clothespins and hanging rod stuff I have built is easy to work with... it's technically more labor intensive than just "dumping lead in a basket".
Rudy had mentioned a link which you may recall or have seen already as well:
http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/shop_setup/plating_barrel/index.html (http://www.nulltime.com/zincplating/shop_setup/plating_barrel/index.html)
His rotating barrel setup probably better than what I did. It should also be easy to build what he's got (sans motor of course). I prolly noted in my response that zinc plating nuts and bolts and stuff is one thing, but attempting to get a good even coat on bullets is another story altogether. Tumble basket plate can prolly work just fine, I dunno.
I will note, with a tumble basket plate approach, ya prolly want to put some ridges in the basket to make sure bullets tumble more "violently" kind of.
-
Here is what I have found so far about brighteners.. Still don't know of a suitable substitute, but brighteners with low voltage and max amperage of 2 amps seem to be the magic combination. The brightner is attracted to the point of highest conductivity (which would allow for the greatest stacking of metal) and act as a blocker, which forces the material elsewhere until a new place of high conductivity develops, which then attracts the brightner/blocker. Lack of a brightner is what causes the "fingers" or hairs of plating matrial to build up.
The explanation I found...
"In a well controlled plating bath, the carrier supports the formation of a black skin on the anode material which serves to regulate the diffusion of copper ions into the electrolyte. The material is also attracted to, but not co-deposited on the cathode (work piece) forming a layer (film layer) in close proximity to the surface that controls the rate of copper grain growth.
The brightener works within the film layer to control copper deposition on a microscopic level. It tends to be attracted to points of high electro-potential, temporarily packing the area and forcing copper to deposit elsewhere. As soon as the deposit levels, the local point of high potential disappears and the brightener drifts away. (i.e. brighteners inhibit the normal tendency of the plating bath to preferentially plate areas of high potential which would inevitably result in rough, dull plating) By continuously moving with the highest potential, brightener/levelers prevent the formation of large copper crystals, giving the highest possible packing density of small equiaxed crystals which resulting in smooth, glossy, high ductility copper deposition.
Mark Brelsford of QMS in Toronto, ON likens the action of the carrier to the function of a doorman at a theater who regulates the flow of people into a theater but doesn't really care where they go once inside. The brightener would then be the ushers who politely lead each person to a vacant seat until the theater is uniformly filled."
I hooked up the power supply a little while ago, works great. Now to calculate how many bullets 5 amp will plate.
Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com (http://www.eimodule.com)
-
Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com (http://www.eimodule.com)
This one?
http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=62 (http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=62)
-
Found it! Polyethylene Glycol, is a plating leveler. Available at Walmart as a laxative for about $6. There is something else called Janus Green B which will require more research. Found these references in an engineering student paper at a university.
-
No, this one
http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=39 (http://www.eimodule.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=39)
-
Janus Green B is an organic dye commonly used to stain mitochondrial cells. I knew I had heard of it but didn't know where. Biology class was a long time ago!
-
So Polyethylene Glycol and Janus Green B are inhibitors which slow the process, this makes sense when we know that slow is also acheived by low voltage and low amperage. Hydrochloric acid is an accelerant! I am not sure that we want any accelerants. The paper on bullet plating on Caswell said the bullets were platd 24 hours, which in my thinking is very slooooow. Sulfuric acid is an organic acid and is the carrier, and vinegar is also an organic acid. I think this explains it pretty well.
"The absolute minimum formula for a Copper plating bath is a Copper Sulfate solution with some Sulfuric acid. In addition to this, one can add inhibitors and levelers such as Polyethylene Glycol (PEG), Janus Green B, or a brightener. Each of these slows the rate of plating at peaks on the surface of the Copper, leading to a smoother plated surface. The other type of additive is an accelerant, which helps the throwing power of the solution and increases the rate of plating. Hydrochloric acid is the only accelerant that has been tested."
-
Here is what I have found so far about brighteners.. Still don't know of a suitable substitute, but brighteners with low voltage and max amperage of 2 amps seem to be the magic combination. The brightner is attracted to the point of highest conductivity (which would allow for the greatest stacking of metal) and act as a blocker, which forces the material elsewhere until a new place of high conductivity develops, which then attracts the brightner/blocker. Lack of a brightner is what causes the "fingers" or hairs of plating matrial to build up.
I have never visibly seen fingers. Some of the earlier posts and some bullets do get a crystaline appearance of left in the bath too long or possibly around the bend between ogive/flat part of the TC bullet.
Having not used any brighteners or levelers I can't attest to their suitability.
Janus Green B looks to be $20 a bottle.
Poly-glycol might also be cheaper as this or something like it:
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=686&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=CNP79tPwr7YCFQvnnAodgWEAWA (http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=686&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PLA&gclid=CNP79tPwr7YCFQvnnAodgWEAWA)
Dunno what else it might contain, but it's probably "more concentrated" than what you'd find in the medicine aisle.
I hooked up the power supply a little while ago, works great. Now to calculate how many bullets 5 amp will plate.
Earlier in the thread I mention the formulas used. You need to pick an amperage per square foot and go from there. 10-30 amps per square foot seems pretty common, so 5 amps might get you half a square foot of coverage ? I know it's square relation not linear, but whatever.
Figure out the size of your bullet, for my 401 180gr or so i kinda winged it with a cylinder with a half inch diameter and half inch height. Divide 'possibly 72' by that number that should be a theoretical max for '1/2 a square foot'.
Depending on how you're retaining the bullets in the CuSO4, ya might have to include surface area of the retention mechanism.
Here is where I got it.
www.eimodule.com (http://www.eimodule.com)
So... a door bell or some other AC transformer into your power supply ? Cheap and workable.
-
Edit:
actually...
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=369129&catid=184260&aid=338666&aparam=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype= (http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=369129&catid=184260&aid=338666&aparam=goobase_filler&device=c&network=g&matchtype=)
Looking at it... it's 238g, it claims to have 14 treatments, active ingredients are claimed to be 17g of PEG, 238/14 = 17.
So... medical stuff will work just fine. Yay.
-
Door bell might not be enough watts and is 24 volt. PC power supply is good, especially since you want to match the input close to the output voltage. In other words, 5 volt in for 2 volt out is perfect and much better than 12 v in and 2 v out as the bigger the differential between input and output, the more heat the regulator has to displace. I tested with a power supply used for an old laptop that died. I need to dig out a regular PC power supply. There is a uTube video on tying the different wires together, and which wires are needed for power on. Creates a multi volt high wattage (200 or more) precision power supply. That coupled with the variable power supply, and you've got a unit that will work as good as an expensive lab power supply. Still need to get some big wire wound resistors for current limiting. I imagine if it's bubbling, it is too fast, so too much current.
I have been thinking about the bullet holding and have an idea. Going to drill a plastic cutting board with the required number of holes for the corrct current draw. Feed romex through the holes stripped back just enough to set hollow points on nose down the way I did the PC bullets. I will then make an anode board out of another piece of cutting board, but it will be set up to hold pieces of short copper pipe that are in line with the cathode/bullets. Place the cathode board in the tank first, then place the anode board on top of the cathode board with the bullets in the pipes. Some alignment pins to keep the boards from moving around and causing a short and distances should be optimal for plating with each bullet the equidistant from it's anode.
Tomorrow, I will get the materials for the solution, some copper pipe caps should be perfect for the anodes. I will start with a single bullet first in order to not waste materials in case I have to change anything. I still have to cast my 458s yet, but I got 150# wheel weight lead (mixed) yesterday, and then it started raining. I have heard hot lead and water don't mix so tonight was devoted to more research.
-
I like the approach you're taking. I think. Not sure, but I think :). Curious how it comes out. As always, post lots of pics. The thought of placing everything then pouring the CuSO4 in is completely opposite of the approaches I've taken and I'll admit to being intrigued.
You could test with the copper tubing , but if you can find it in local hardware stores... check the roofing area for copper flashing. It's relatively inexpensive and offers much more surface area and is easier to work with.
Concerning power supplies - you sound like you're doing DC <> DC ... the power supply you liked already had a AC -> DC rectifier apart of it. Are you talking about taking the AC transformer stuff out of a PC power supply ? Or is this two different power supply options you're discussing ?
Also -- the 24 hour coat ya mentioned -- if it produces awesome coats, then it might be feasible. 24 hours to coat, say, 100 bullets is a tad extreme though. I suppose you could just set aside 10pm as 'change out copper plating stuff' though.
-
The more I think about the cutting board with holes and wire sticking through it, the more I like it. I'm really curious how your wiring layout under neat and pics of everything turns out (let alone what you do for the plating itself and how it turns out).
For me, this wouldn't necessarily be for cast bullets - mostly because I'm not a fan of drilling into lead with a case trimmer.
With that said, it'd either be swaging or a hollow point mold.
Concerning hollow point molds, I've never cared for the screw in hollow pointers... but... this:
Casting Hollow Point Bullets With The MP-Mold (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fynI_jmNCH0#ws)
I don't particularly see why someone with a drill press couldn't create something like this out of a cheap Lee mold. Maybe brass vs the rolled steel thermal expansion (instead of aluminum) ? I think I've seen someone else make one of these (either pics or YT, can't recall).
So... a rolled steel rod in with two legs attached for a |= shape. Wonder how to go about attaching these legs without a a welder or being able to cast the |= shape yourself. Hmmmm.
My own plating setup has been semi-boxed up just to get it out of the way. I need to water test all of the cells, figure out how to patch cells that leak, and then try again. I wanna get the powder coat jig completed first, though.
-
I am fighting ADD to finish powder coating before I get back to plating. While PC is great for the larger calibers, my faster rifles need plated. My next batch of PC will be for my 458 SOCOM which is shooting at ~ 1460 fps. I will coat them in flat black and I am sure they will look awesome.
The time consumed for both methods of bullet coating is relative to how many you shoot in an outing. If I were to shoot 30 rounds of muzzleloader, that is a lot. But it is normal to shoot 30 in the 458. We shoot the Mosin in groups of 5 single shots and usually shoot around 25 rounds. The 223/5.56 goes through rounds pretty fast and the same applies to my pistols. I usually take one or two of my grandchildren to the range with me and we take turns so we can spend a whole afternoon shooting the above numbers. What this means is if I can make batches of 60 they would last for 2 or 3 range outings depending on the rifle. What I use a lot of is targets! I have figured out how to make splat targets, but it is slow and time consuming. Gotta improve that process.