NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: bkoenig on May 06, 2012, 07:46:50 PM
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I went for a run today around noon, and as I was gasping along I heard growling behind me. I turned around a large dog (well over 100 lbs) had come out of some trees and was chasing me, barking and growling aggressively. I turned around and shouted at it, and it stopped about 15 feet away but kept barking. After about 30 seconds the dog's owner yelled at it. I never did see the owner, but the dog turned and ran back to him. I did not reach for my gun, but I was ready to if he had advanced further.
I'm wondering what would have happened if the dog had attacked me and I had been forced to shoot it. Most dogs I'm pretty confident I could take, but this thing was huge. If he'd wanted to he could have seriously injured me and the only way I could have defended myself would have been with my gun. This was in Lincoln city limits. Do I have to meet the same standards to defend myself against an aggressive dog as I do with a human attacker?
As a side note, this reinforced the decision I made a while back to never run with headphones. I see a lot of people do it, but you lose a lot of situational awareness. I've come up behind people on trails and scared the crap out of them (not intentionally) because they didn't know I was there.
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This might be a case where pepper spray might come into play to fend off the animal before things get heated.
I'm sure some folks would send you through the ringer should you have to take-down their beloved pet. It sounds silly, but maybe this should be brought up at either the city or state level.
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Good point about pepper spray. I don't carry it now. When I'm running I want to keep weight to a minimum, but a small keychain sized one might be a good idea. It would definitely be a good deterrent to prevent the dog from coming close enough to bite.
Personally, I would think if I'm in the process of being bitten by a 100+ lb dog I would be fully justified in shooting it, and this is coming from a guy who loves dogs more than he likes most people. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications would be, though.
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I don't have an answer to your question, but I will point out that some bully breeds may not be deterred by pepper spray. And I'm glad you are ok.
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If someones dog attacks you and you have to shoot it, they will have NO recourse. there are strict leash laws in the city. Main concern would be the possibility of hitting something else.
Personally I would wait for the dog to lunge before I shot it. However if my children are with me I'd shoot it. Its a tough call but there a numerous dog attacks in omaha every year.
I know dogs get out unintentionally, but I've seen plenty of people let them out on purpose. If I had a dog that would chase people I would keep it tied up at all times.
My basset doesnt get aggressive but she jumps up on everyone.
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Was taking a walk with my 6 year old (he was riding his bike). A black lab came barreling out of an open garage and got between the two of us. My son got scared and started to ride away which sent the dog into hysterics, luckily I was able to get between them and the dog was more bark than bite. Still, I had my hand on my pistol once I got between them. Luckily the owner finally realized it was HIS dog that got out of his open garage door and called him back.
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I'm curious about the legal specifics in this instance too. My opinion is if a dog attacks you in a public place it deserves to be shot.
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Shoot it. You are under no obligation to be dog food. A dog can hurt ya real bad, real quick. A trained one can make ya real dead, real quick.
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The use of DEADLY force is justified when one is under the immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to ones self or other innocents...... that includes the four legged variety, too.
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I was thinking about dog attacks too. Not necessarily due to an encounter like this, but because of my recent experience with my dogs. The other day I was playing rough with my 80+ pound Golden Doodle and he was reciprocating with equally rough play. During this time I was thinking, "I'm glad this dog likes me, because if he REALLY wanted to hurt me, it would be very difficult to stop him".
It is not just the big dogs. Another time I was trying to hold our 60 pound dog in one spot while she was being neurotic about something that scares her, and I could not do it. Even with my arms wrapped around her torso and holding on to a couple of her legs, she wore me down in a reasonably short time.
Pepper spray would work great on one of those days when you happen to be standing (or can position yourself) upwind of the dog/attacker. Then again, if you spray it and it blows back to cover you, maybe you will taste bad enough that the dog will leave you alone. ;D
I am NOT a fan of firing a "warning shot" when it comes to humans. If you are facing a human attacker and you have been forced to draw the gun, you must proceed to fire unless the BG immediately turns and runs. However, considering a human knows what a gun is when they see it, but a dog does not, would a warning shot into soft(er) ground be enough to deter a vicious dog? Considering how hard our soil can be in the dry months, maybe you would still have to be concerned with ricochet.
Fly
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I don't know the legal outcome,especially the reaction from the Law in Lancaster, but the pepper spray sounds like the perfect intermediate step. I can't imagine a reasonable person objecting to a dog being shot that was still aggressively attacking someone after being sprayed. I would face the dog,yell "Down." loudly, with a deep voice. Without backing up,place the pepper spray,ready to fire,in my left hand,while my right is positioned on my carry weapon. If all goes as hoped, no one would ever see the gun. I suspect 95% of the time the pepper spray would work.
Two or more dogs get a little tricky. :o RJ
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I do want to add if it is a little sh*t dog, something you can boot across the lawn, I would do that instead. Cops around here have shot those types of dogs and that is crazy. A little dog can do damage but you can certainly fend it off.
If my basset got out and she jumped on someone, I would understand if they shot her. I've done everything I can to teach her not to jump on people and she doesnt listen around strangers at all. Around me she is perfect. She is very non agressive but she is very loud and sounds very big.
Pepperspray is a good idea but are we really expected to carry all this crap with us? Besides, unless you spend big bucks most of the little pepper sprays fail to work anyways when needed. My wife has had a couple and all they did is fall apart on her. So I got her glock 26, that is holding up nicely :)
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What about the Vexor brand that I saw down at Thunder Alley? Looked like it was a solid little unit for about $10 or $15.
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I don't have an answer to your question, but I will point out that some bully breeds may not be deterred by pepper spray.
I would think a dog's more sensitive nose (relative to a human) would be affected considerably by a blast of pepper spray. Granted, once activated, the instincts of a dog bred for fighting/attacking may override its other senses.
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They say "Wasp & Hornet Spray" is a very effective defensive weapon.
Little big to carry, maybe.
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Better yet and even cheaper is a water gun filled with ammonia....
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Better yet and even cheaper is a water gun filled with ammonia....
I've seen ammonia used and it's pretty darn effective. Really changes their channels. :)
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Except water guns are prone to leak, are unreliable, and probably wouldn't deter a human. If I do carry something less than lethal I want it to work on both two and four legged critters.
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I dont know bk...if i got ammonia in my eyes i think i'ld be pretty well detterred lol.
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Good point about pepper spray. I don't carry it now. When I'm running I want to keep weight to a minimum, but a small keychain sized one might be a good idea. It would definitely be a good deterrent to prevent the dog from coming close enough to bite.
You don't see cops using pepper spray on dogs because its not really reliable. Plus dogs should be considered armed in the legal sense because their teeth and jaws can do a lot more damage than an unarmed human could do. I don't know what the legal ramifications would be and I bet you could be liable for the dog in civil court (yes i bet you'd be put through the ringer by the dog's owners).
As far as pepper spray goes: I think its very good and I recommend any CHP holder carry a police quality pepper spray with them when they carry their handgun. Remember, we can't always shoot someone when attacked and a blast of pepper spray should incapacitate most. BK: Do not get a keychain pepper spray! I have owned the small pepper sprays in the past and they are laughable. They shoot a thin "squirt pistol" stream for like 5 feet max. That makes it real easy to miss your target. I recommend buying a decent 2-3 ounce police/security flip top spray and wear it in a little holster clipped to your belt and also concealed. These sprays will shoot a thicker stream or cone fog and the stream sprays will fire a good 8-12 feet.
You can get these at any police/security uniform store. I recommend Don's Uniform/Pioneer Uniform on 25th & Leavenworth in Omaha or you can order them on the internet. This is the spray I carry and I also recommend this website (they are legit and have good customer service):
http://www.defensedevices.com/fox-labs-flip-top.html (http://www.defensedevices.com/fox-labs-flip-top.html)
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I've heard that thos loud blow horn things work will to, the kind attached to a compressed air can. Now who is going to carry that? Maybe my grandma.
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One of the local radio station personalities posted earlier about see a jogger running with a snake around his neck. Now maybe there is an option there?...
The question is; just how big a boy are ya? :P
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I know! I'll run with a backpack full of cats, and if I get chased by a dog I'll just start dropping cats behind me to distract it. Kind of like flares for a heat seeking missile.
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SEE There. You come to this forum with a problem/ question and sooner or later we will come up with a plan. Tell ya what, I'll take it one further and go to the pound for ya and pick up some real tasty looking ones for ya..
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I don't have an answer to your question, but I will point out that some bully breeds may not be deterred by pepper spray. And I'm glad you are ok.
Please cite a source supporting the assertion that some bully breeds won't be deterred by pepper spray that would deter other breeds.
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The use of DEADLY force is justified when one is under the immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to ones self or other innocents...... that includes the four legged variety, too.
Certainly there is no question that you have the right to use deadly force as it is necessary to avoid death or grievous bodily harm, but the bar isn't high for use of force (deadly or otherwise) against domestic animals.
I would venture to say that where you shoot a dog because you are reasonably in fear of an injury that would require medical treatment you would likely avoid criminal or civil liability.
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I'm curious about the legal specifics in this instance too. My opinion is if a dog attacks you in a public place it deserves to be shot.
So long as "attack" really means "attack," and not "barked and growled at me," I agree.
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Interesting topic, personally, I care about people, not animals. I would shoot 100 dogs in the face if it meant saving one crack addict with aids.
It is really the same guidelines for lethal force in general:
-Ability
Is it a little rat dog that shows no signs of rabies? Is is a giant rottweiler?
-Intent
Is it running at you, growling? Is it running away or just standing there?
-Opportunity
Are you inside a vehicle? Is the animal on a leash?
Just some things to think about. It is an interesting topic to run some mental scenarios on.
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I have read articles dating back to the 1800's about "baiting the bull" in England. The things that were done to the dog were horrible, and yet the dog was still determined to do what the owner told them. I figure if they can repeatedly have appendages cut off and still focus on the fight, a bit of pepper spray would not be a deterrent for dog that is determined.
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I have had a number of experiences with aggressive dogs while working as an exterminator years ago and on the Fire Dept now. Most times they have run away when confronted or have been small enough that they could be grabbed and put somewhere safe.
I have only had to really hurt a dog one time. I had a large, what appeared to be a golden retriever mix, go after my 20lb boston terrier, who was leashed in my yard at the time. When a couple of push kicks didnt work a solid soccer kick in the ribs convinced it to leave.
I have seen a number of dogs shot on warrant services. All were pitbulls doing as they had been trained to do. For example, on one memorable warrant, upon entry the lead officer was confronted by a large pitbull. As it charged he shot it twice with 5.56 breaking its spine. It continued to try and bite the officer coming towards him using only its forelegs. He transitioned to pistol to put it out of its misery and as he went to shoot it in the head it bit the muzzle of his gun as he fired. Now it was still trying to bite him with half of its jaw gone. A shot through the top of the head finally killed it.
Come across a dog like that, good luck with the pepper spray.
- Shawn
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Mas Ayoob wrote a book some 20 years ago titled "The Truth about Self Protection". There is an EXCELLENT section on dogs.
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An unleashed large, dangerous animal making a move to attack you and cause you serious bodily injury or even death? Definitely a good shoot.