NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Carry Issues => Topic started by: johnnyblack on June 19, 2012, 10:00:20 AM
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Hello all - so I just got my CHP (around day 56, FYI) and in my carry class, the instructor made note of certain issues surrounding what ammunition you use for SD/carry purposes. His specific point was that if you are involved in a SD situation, shoot someone and injure them severely or kill them, your ammunition may come under scrutiny (as well as any number of other things) and he recommended using whatever loads local LEOs use - that way, if it comes to brass tacks you are less vulnerable to criticism, legally, for using excessively powered or designed ammo (i.e. why did you have to use the ammo that causes the most damage?)
So, with that in mind, anyone know what OPD and the NSP uses? I would also love to hear your personal recommendations - with a little rationale...especially if you carry a walther pps 9mm or bersa 45 UC
thanks fellas!
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i'd like to know this as well.
but right now i only use Hornady TAP or Critical Defense ammunition.
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NSP and most local LEOs are issued Speer Gold Dot. Being from Texas and having family in Law Enforcement, most departments there issue Gold Dot, too.
FBI carries Winchester PDX, most in .40 S&W
Hornady makes great options, but I am not familiar with ANY Law Enforcement that issues, though.
The gold standard and still a good one is Federal Hydra Shok. .45 ACP the most proven of all calibers in this bullet design (my personal choice for .45 ACP)
All great loads and your thinking is spot on....."yes, Mr. Prosecutor I chose to use the same ammuniton Law Enforcement is issued, not 'cop killer' ammo as you insinuate"
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Any of the above are good choices and will do their job if you do yours (shot placement). I recently had the opportunity to discuss the topic of ammo selection with a civilian contractor currently training Special Forces. He commented that they have done extensive live tissue training with nearly all of the common JHPs currently offered. And in his words they all perform nearly identically, regardless of caliber (9, 40, 45), in live tissue.
He did say that the CorBon DPX stood out as one of the only JHPs to actually gain mass in live tissue. Whereas most other non bonded JHPs fragmented and lost mass. His personal recommendation was to carry a bonded or solid copper JHP to allow for better retention of mass and better performance through light barriers.
- Shawn
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He did say that the CorBon DPX stood out as one of the only JHPs to actually gain mass in live tissue. Whereas most other non bonded JHPs fragmented and lost mass.
Losing mass is possible but how does a bullet gain mass? Maybe you meant it retains mass and gains diameter.
I personally use Winchester RA9T. It used the same Black Talon bullet without the scary black coating.
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If I remember correctly Chris Zeeb actually said don't tell anyone what you carry in the event of a SD situation. (as far as the media is concerned anyway)
Chris, correct me if I am wrong.
I myself carry TAP FPD 124 gr HP in my LC9.
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Losing mass is possible but how does a bullet gain mass? Maybe you meant it retains mass and gains diameter.
I personally use Winchester RA9T. It used the same Black Talon bullet without the scary black coating.
It gained mass/weight by picking up tissue as it expanded. When it was extracted and weighed, it weighed more than when it started. The important point being that it lost nothing of its original mass/weight. This was the only JHP they tested that did this. Im sure the others picked up some tissue along the way as well, but it didnt offset what was lost in separation or fragmentation.
- Shawn
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NSP and most local LEOs are issued Speer Gold Dot. Being from Texas and having family in Law Enforcement, most departments there issue Gold Dot, too.
FBI carries Winchester PDX, most in .40 S&W
Hornady makes great options, but I am not familiar with ANY Law Enforcement that issues, though.
The gold standard and still a good one is Federal Hydra Shok. .45 ACP the most proven of all calibers in this bullet design (my personal choice for .45 ACP)
All great loads and your thinking is spot on....."yes, Mr. Prosecutor I chose to use the same ammuniton Law Enforcement is issued, not 'cop killer' ammo as you insinuate"
just want to thank you and all the others for weighiong in- probably going to need to go pick up some gold dot and see how they cycle...
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If I remember correctly Chris Zeeb actually said don't tell anyone what you carry in the event of a SD situation. (as far as the media is concerned anyway)
Chris, correct me if I am wrong.
I myself carry TAP FPD 124 gr HP in my LC9.
Correct, News media will try to hype up their story by finding out if you had "evil cop killing hollow points".
Keep in mind also, anything you post on the internet, will come up on a search..... Should something happen, the news media will scour your FB page and every internet forum you post in looking for tidbits of info :-)
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It gained mass/weight by picking up tissue as it expanded. When it was extracted and weighed, it weighed more than when it started. The important point being that it lost nothing of its original mass/weight. This was the only JHP they tested that did this. Im sure the others picked up some tissue along the way as well, but it didnt offset what was lost in separation or fragmentation.
- Shawn
Gotcha. It didnt really gain mass, just got crap stuck in it.
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A couple of years back Gun Unlimited told me that OPD was using Remington Golden Saber. One reason they were out of stock at the time.
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A couple of years back Gun Unlimited told me that OPD was using Remington Golden Saber. One reason they were out of stock at the time.
They were but might have switched to Dots now. FWIW in the testing I’ve done the Golden Saber’s have been really bad at expanding and holding together. Federal HST on the other hand expands every time from what I’ve seen.
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Correct, News media will try to hype up their story by finding out if you had "evil cop killing hollow points".
Keep in mind also, anything you post on the internet, will come up on a search..... Should something happen, the news media will scour your FB page and every internet forum you post in looking for tidbits of info :-)
The media would do this if you used a NERF gun. Live your life and stop worrying about what the media thinks. You have a right to defend yourself. Find something that will do the job and stick with it. If you keep aware of your surroundings, you will most likely never have to use it anyway.
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The most critical aspect of SD ammo is reliability. It must be 100% reliable in YOUR handgun.
Then, YOU must be able to use the handgun well enough to put it on target reliably.
If the NSP's selection works for you and your system, GREAT!
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I went to my lgs recently and they informed me that opd uses golden sabers...in addition to the potential criminal liability concerns there is also the aspect of that related to civil suits...I.e. I would rather use what the local or state leo's use instead of Hornady zombie max...imagine trying to explain why you chose such a silly-named ammunition, peesumably designed for shooting fictional horror characts for your sd situations - it would be easy to paint you as a person taking things lightly and/or in a juvenile manner. obviously this is an extreme example, but, just sayin, I would feel more comfortable int the position of, "hey, I use what the Leo's use...nothing questionable about that..."
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Ive got some 135gr critical duties that run flawlessly in my kimber. I chose them because how reliable there were in the gun. I also had good groupings at the range, so until I find something better I will run these. If I find out what LPD uses, I will try to use that.
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I am currently using 9mm 147 gr Winchester RA9T. Very reliable in all my guns.
Only agency I know about is DC Sheriff...they use gold dot.
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They were but might have switched to Dots now. FWIW in the testing I’ve done the Golden Saber’s have been really bad at expanding and holding together. Federal HST on the other hand expands every time from what I’ve seen.
What about Golden Saber Bonded?
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What about Golden Saber Bonded?
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm (http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/9mm_HST_GS.htm)
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If you are attacked by a gelatin block........
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I went to my lgs recently and they informed me that opd uses golden sabers...in addition to the potential criminal liability concerns there is also the aspect of that related to civil suits...I.e. I would rather use what the local or state leo's use instead of Hornady zombie max...imagine trying to explain why you chose such a silly-named ammunition, peesumably designed for shooting fictional horror characts for your sd situations - it would be easy to paint you as a person taking things lightly and/or in a juvenile manner. obviously this is an extreme example, but, just sayin, I would feel more comfortable int the position of, "hey, I use what the Leo's use...nothing questionable about that..."
I use the Z-Max and the reason for that is because its about identical to Critical Defense but generally costs about a buck less. I wouldn't have any problem explaining that to the police. Silly name or not, it is what it is.
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I use the Z-Max and the reason for that is because its about identical to Critical Defense but generally costs about a buck less. I wouldn't have any problem explaining that to the police. Silly name or not, it is what it is.
Well, don't get me wrong...I'm sure it's a fine load and has all thos orperties and those are valid reasons...but it's not the police I'm worried about explaining to - its the jury...especially those who might be anti-2A and not understanding of such things...i.e. the people with no clue about firearms and why someone would choose something of that nature...frankly, if I had my way, I'd use ammo called Federal 230gr. 'Butterfly Kisses' or maybe Remington 185gr. 'Grandma Hugs' -just to eliminate the possibility...
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Remington 185gr. 'Grandma Hugs' -
I wish there were a .45 ACP loading that had the wallop and authority that my Grandma's open hand had: she was near 70 years old and decked my then 18 year old brother for a smart aleck comment ..... he was a State wrestling qualifyer and had survived numerous car accidents, been shot once, got into lots of fights ..... one whack from Velda and he hit the floor.
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I wish there were a .45 ACP loading that had the wallop and authority that my Grandma's open hand had: she was near 70 years old and decked my then 18 year old brother for a smart aleck comment ..... he was a State wrestling qualifyer and had survived numerous car accidents, been shot once, got into lots of fights ..... one whack from Velda and he hit the floor.
Wish there was a like button.
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OPD has used Remington Golden Saber Bonded from 2009 to 2011 and Remington gold dot hollow point on the 2012 bid. (SEE PDF links below)
Handgun
Remington Golden Saber Bonded
180 grain .40
148 grain 9mm
230 grain .45
125+p grain 38 Cal
Rifle
Remington match hollow point bonded
62 grain .223
168 grain .308
2009
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252009_08_25/Police/932.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAkQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGKr-HWF0Ypnj4EFSB7nrHwD5Lusw (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252009_08_25/Police/932.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAkQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGKr-HWF0Ypnj4EFSB7nrHwD5Lusw)
2010
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252010_05_11/Police/568.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAsQFjAD&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE28GA506FYQFcGUswX0rKbzwJOxg (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252010_05_11/Police/568.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAsQFjAD&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE28GA506FYQFcGUswX0rKbzwJOxg)
2011
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252011_06_14/Police/722.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGr--uh9ckQdgl7a1-NtT8tJ1x4Yg (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252011_06_14/Police/722.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGr--uh9ckQdgl7a1-NtT8tJ1x4Yg)
Bid Remington Golden Saber Bonded purchased Remington gold dot hollow point counter bid
2012
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252012_04_24/Police/555.pdf&sa=U&ei=RBoLUIK0HIj1qAHnwoHBCg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGAc2YTOWtLmUbPGMyx9nJ5fDvXxQ (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252012_04_24/Police/555.pdf&sa=U&ei=RBoLUIK0HIj1qAHnwoHBCg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGAc2YTOWtLmUbPGMyx9nJ5fDvXxQ)
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OPD has used Remington Golden Saber Bonded from 2009 to 2011 and Remington gold dot hollow point on the 2012 bid. (SEE PDF links below)
Handgun
Remington Golden Saber Bonded
180 grain .40
148 grain 9mm
230 grain .45
125+p grain 38 Cal
Rifle
Remington match hollow point bonded
62 grain .223
168 grain .308
2009
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252009_08_25/Police/932.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAkQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGKr-HWF0Ypnj4EFSB7nrHwD5Lusw (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252009_08_25/Police/932.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAkQFjAC&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGKr-HWF0Ypnj4EFSB7nrHwD5Lusw)
2010
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252010_05_11/Police/568.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAsQFjAD&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE28GA506FYQFcGUswX0rKbzwJOxg (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252010_05_11/Police/568.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAsQFjAD&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNE28GA506FYQFcGUswX0rKbzwJOxg)
2011
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252011_06_14/Police/722.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGr--uh9ckQdgl7a1-NtT8tJ1x4Yg (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252011_06_14/Police/722.pdf&sa=U&ei=phwLUOu1JorJqQHeuezECg&ved=0CAcQFjAB&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGr--uh9ckQdgl7a1-NtT8tJ1x4Yg)
Remington Golden Saber Bonded
2012
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252012_04_24/Police/555.pdf&sa=U&ei=RBoLUIK0HIj1qAHnwoHBCg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGAc2YTOWtLmUbPGMyx9nJ5fDvXxQ (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.cityofomaha.org/cityclerk/images/stories/agenda/ID%252012_04_24/Police/555.pdf&sa=U&ei=RBoLUIK0HIj1qAHnwoHBCg&ved=0CAUQFjAA&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNGAc2YTOWtLmUbPGMyx9nJ5fDvXxQ)
Nice! Thank you!
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Picked up some Hornady Critical Duty .40 for the Glock 23 and Critical Defense for the .38 special today. If somebody tried to use it against me for using "killer ammo" I would tell them that I wanted something I felt was reliable and wouldn't fail me if I tried to fire and protect myself. And if they say "why did you use hollow-points instead of FMJ?" I would respond with over penetration of a bullet could be a risk to others around.
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For those of you who would like to know what the State of Nebraska uses...
2012 order
45 Automatic 230 gr. Ranger Bonded - RA45B
9mm Luger +P 124 gr. Ranger Bonded - RA9BA
12 Gauge Winchester Super-X Buckshot 2-3/4" #1 Buck 16 Pellets 1250 fps - XB121
http://www.das.state.ne.us/materiel/purchasing/contracts/pdfs/13030(oc)awd.pdf (http://www.das.state.ne.us/materiel/purchasing/contracts/pdfs/13030(oc)awd.pdf)
Speer Gold Dot Duty Ammunition, 180gr .40 - speer gdhp 53962
Speer Gold Dot Duty Ammunition, 147gr 9mm - speer gdhp 53619
Federal TRU® Tactical Rifle Urban - .223 cal, 55 Grain, Ballistic Tip - federal t223f
Federal Cartridge - TRU® Tactical Rifle Urban - .223 cal, 55 Grain, SP - federal t223a
Federal LE13200 Law Enforcement 00 9 Pellet Buck Shot Low Recoil - federal LE12700
http://www.das.state.ne.us/materiel/purchasing/contracts/pdfs/13031(oc)awd.pdf (http://www.das.state.ne.us/materiel/purchasing/contracts/pdfs/13031(oc)awd.pdf)
this can be found under
Police Equipment and Supplies
http://www.nebraska.gov/das/materiel/purchasing/contract_search/index.php (http://www.nebraska.gov/das/materiel/purchasing/contract_search/index.php)