NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Shooting Sports => Topic started by: JTH on August 01, 2012, 08:28:29 AM
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Ran across this awhile back, so I thought I'd post it here.
Another article on "Will competition get you killed?" by Ron Avery.
Avery bio: http://www.practicalshootingacademy.com/instructors/ron-avery-presidentdirector-of-training/ (http://www.practicalshootingacademy.com/instructors/ron-avery-presidentdirector-of-training/)
(Quick summary: Law enforcement and law enforcement trainer for over 25 years. Also competitive shooter.)
The article itself, posted on PoliceOne.com:
http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/5816232-Will-competition-get-you-killed/ (http://www.policeone.com/Officer-Safety/articles/5816232-Will-competition-get-you-killed/)
"Over the past 30-plus years, I’ve watched the ebb and flow of competition shooting and other competitive events in police training environments. From Police Pistol Competition to IPSC and IDPA and now 3-gun competitions, competitive shooting has begun to become an item of interest for law enforcement. Even the NRA has jumped on the bandwagon, coming up with their version of 3-gun competition.
For years, law enforcement in general has avoided competition, repeating the mantra of “competition will get you killed” as a refrain, vigorously and repeatedly. Now we are starting to see a resurgence of interest among our younger generation of police officers who are becoming interested in competition as a way to “put their skills to the test,” as one told me in a conversation.
Exploring this topic further will expose some deep seated beliefs and biases on both sides of the debate. I believe it is time to bring this controversial issue up and look at it objectively and openly.
I believe this debate has many passionate supporters on both sides, each wanting to make their argument for or against..."
Go read the rest. Some good stuff there.
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In my humble opinion and endless hours of reading on the subject I've come to two conclusions....1)Those who say it will get you killed have never been in a gun fight to "prove" their theory (and frankly I cannot find ANY examples of such OPINIONS nor seen ANY presented as evidence) and 2) there are a multiple accounts of "competition shooters" who have prevailed in/survived gunfights from Jim Cerillo (Deceased) to John Farnham to Tom Givens to our local example James McCullough.
One last comment...although I am not in Law Enforcement, I have several friends and family that are, including my father. I've shot numerous times (including matches) with a lot of them. I also know a number of them whose only gun play is qualifying TWICE a year (and don't even carry off duty). I'll let you draw your own conclusion about which one is less likely to survive a gunfight (MY OPINION).
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I guess that I don't understand how any kind of training can be a bad thing.
Sure, competeing in a USPSA match is not the same as going toe to toe with a bad guy, but I would like my chances better than all of those owners that do no training, but talk alot and shove their thumbs in a body cavity.
Would love to hear what % of LOE's that actually train in some fashion or another. Maybe some comments from the LEO's that do train.
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I know of a fairly local LEO office that had significant trouble getting everyone qualified. They kept failing the NE State LEO requirements! I couldn't understand how they could miss that huge target!!
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My impression is that many LEO's don't want to get their tails kicked in competition, so the "get you killed" argument was invented.
Edited to add: I don't want to get my tail kicked in competition either, but that's part of it. Somebody's got to come in last. My goal is to improve each time.
Secondly, I do believe some aspects of some games MAY instill some bad habits. Most notably to yours truly is lack of emphasis on the use of cover. Learning to shoot around cover, often in an awkward stance, is a good thing.
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dcjulie.....he couldn't pass the South Dakota qual the first 3 times either.....
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I can't imagine the logic in thinking that practice and shooting rounds downrange could get you killed.
Every skill I have, I have accumulated thru practice and experience.
Greg
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If you have an interest in tactical training, you've probably heard of Pat McNamara. And here's his take on it:
"Though there is no instant solution to shooting well, I truly believe that the illusive shortcut is in competition. How does one compartmentalize the pressures of a gunfight? Well, you won’t learn to do it during the gunfight. Competition forces pressure on the shooter and it is mostly self-induced. We experience anxiety because of self defeating beliefs. The more one trains under pressure, the more he learns to compartmentalize those pressures."
See the rest:
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18/gunfighter-moment-mcnamara/ (http://soldiersystems.net/2012/08/18/gunfighter-moment-mcnamara/)
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While I know to whom you are specifically referring, bullit, I also know of many more LEOs that can't pass the requirements! It is SAD!
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"Will competition get you killed on the street?"
Short answer:
No. And it likely will help.
A long winded metaphor:
I grew up on a commercial sheep operation, that also had a flock of show quality Dorsets. The commercial flock was the moneymakers, the high-production/low-cost animals that where generally raised VERY differently from the show flock. The show flock was a group of hay and grain burners. The "show" side of the sheep industry has long since become so detached from actual productivity and efficiency, that they are completely different things that have absolutely nothing in common except for species.
My father was a sheep judge at the Adams county fair some years ago, he was essentially ranking a group of about 20 ewelambs (1-2 years old). The group of animals was fairly typical except for one smaller somewhat scraggly ewe lamb that the spectators and showmen assumed would end up in the bottom of the class. My father noticed however that, unlike the rest of the animals in the class, this animal was lactating. This meant it had produced at least one lamb that year, and, given the time of year, the (at least one) lamb had made it to weaning age. This meant that this animal had been more productive, more profitable, than any of the other supposedly higher quality animals in the show ring. My father, acting on principle, knowing full well that there would be backlash, awarded Grand Champion Ewe Lamb to the scraggly/undersized lactating ewe. My father, who was in charge of the largest federally owned flock of research ovines in the United States for +30 years, who held a masters in Animal Science and Ruminant Nutrition, who likely is the single greatest resource of knowledge and skill in the sheep industry, received a variety of personal and professional attacks, and has not been asked to judge anywhere ever since. Let that backlash stand as the greatest direct example of the rift between real world commercial production and competition, that I have ever seen.
My thoughts
I do NOT believe competition is the end-all of tactical firearms training. I do think there is alot of very good competition, that does have the benefit of putting mental (and sometimes physical) stress on the shooter, as well as putting "man vs man" in the form of times and scores. Some competitions, the ones I prefer to invest my limited time and funds in, actually do a very good job of "shoring the gap" between competition and real world, by deducting points for failing to utilize cover, etc.
I have seen many competitions, most recently F-class (or as I call it, "prone benchrest"), that I do not believe hold enough training value to be worth my time and money. I watched a 3 gun competition where, instead of taking cover behind a barrel and utilizing it for support, the shooter stands in the open and engage a series of targets. The common theme is that the only objectively measurable performance values are speed and accuracy, but I would hope that most would agree, there is much much much more to the real world.
The most tangible difference is usually seen in equipment, giant F-class bipods that no one would ever want to lug around "in the real world," similar examples can be seen in most other types of competition.
Conclusion:
There is a critical balance between competition and real world that must be carefully watched. It is up to the individual to decide what is worth their time and money, as there is no magical dividing line. Also remember that speed and accuracy, while crucial, are far from the only attributes that lead to winning a "Firefight." But even with something as "non-tactical" as benchrest, shooting for competition is inevitably better than not shooting at all.
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Pulled from a similar discussion (based on Ron Avery's article) in the Firing Line forum.
A relevant comment from a LEO:
"I am a LEO and I try to shoot at least one IDPA or action pistol match a month. I alternate shooting with my duty gun and gear and with my off duty rig. Practice through competition has helped me to be a better shooter and it shows during training and qualifying. My speed, accuracy, and gun handling (draws, reloads, clearing jams, dealing with failures, etc), have all improved. I am consistently faster, more accurate, safer on the range, and have fewer issues with my guns and gear than most, if not all, the other LEOs I qualify and train with. Many of those guys are good shots and know their equipment but few practice much, if at all, and none compete. IMO, that quality trigger time really makes a difference. Competition has also brought to light equipment issues that I didn't know existed that I was then able to fix, better to find any shortcomings (yours and your gear's) on the range than the street. "
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5158153&postcount=51 (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5158153&postcount=51)
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For most shooters, LEOs included, ANYTHING that encourages clearing leather and/or focusing on the front sight quickly would be a benefit.
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i always wondered how i will do when i qualify on the M-9 or M-16/M-4, as its always a different gun(different as in not the exact same one) every time, but I guess it boils down to fundamentals.
I've been dryfiring my own Berretta the "triangle"/head down method but I dryfire my XDM with the "modern" stance. Do you think that will hurt me in the long run? or killed on the street... :blank:
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Great post and it needs to be bumped to the top for some more, well deserved attention!
- Rob