NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: kozball on August 02, 2012, 09:52:33 PM
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Question to all the "long gunners" out there.
Can you get too much scope? What power do you like?
I will soon be getting a Savage FCP-K in 308 win. This has a 24" barrel with comp and the accu-trigger. Great reviews out of the box. My hope is to be able to hit 18" x 24" plate at 600 yds and nothing closer than 200 yds or so. My 55 yr old eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and I don't have access to anyone that has a long scope.
Thanks for your thoughts.
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Is this strictly competition, tactical, target, or hunting? Or some combination thereof?
For the max range and caliber quoted:
Hunting: someone else can chime in
Target: As high of a power as you want, but keep in mind with extremely high powers, such as 40x, even your heartbeat can make the POA jump.
Tactical: 10-15x. Could go as high as 22x, but I would not recommend. 15x works well for me out to 1,100, a good balance of magnification and ability to acquire targets without searching or having to dial back. Variably power is nice, but not necessary. For most people, myself included, the variable power adjustment almost never moves. Therefore a FFP is basically pointless as well. For what you are wanting to do, a fixed 10x would be plenty sufficient.
Competition: depends on the type of competition. If it is F-class; same answer as for target. If you are talking about tactical comps, dialing in and out under time and pressure, mil-ranging, rapid target acquisition; same answer as the tactical.
The only thing a magnified optic, or a relatively higher magnification, actually does is give you a more finite point of aim. It does not make the weapon or the shooter more accurate.
Also, consider what direction you want to take this. A barrel can be trued or changed out, a receiver can be trued, a stalk can be bedded or changed out, but once you've bought glass, that's it, until you can afford new.
Make sure you get one with adjustable parallax for the ranges you are talking about (not to be confused with focus) Get dials that match your reticle, and badger ordinance rings and base. Align, lap, level, torque, loctite, plum test, box test, bore-sight.
Brands:
Nightforce (my personal favorite)
US Optics
Schmidt and Bender
Swarvoski (spelling)
As a general rule, your glass should cost twice as much as your stick. Buy once, cry once.
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Can you get too much scope?
Yewbetcha!
I once had a 24X scope on my Remington XB40 .22-250 prairie dog rifle.
It was like looking through a soda straw. Could never get it lined up on anything. Wavy mirage effect all the time on a hot day. Even thinking about it now, all that eyestrain pain comes back in a rush.
Switched to a 3X12 variable. Usually used it around 9-10 power. Worked great. Like most of my equipment, it was better than I was.
sfg
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Oh yeah, Mirage. The higher the power, the heavier the mirage (excluding environmental factors)
Eyestrain is different for everyone. Parallax control, good glass, and proper eye relief can help out quite a bit.
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If you don't want to spend a lot of money I've been happy with the Bushnell 3200 10x fixed power. I slap it on my AR for target work/prairie rats. It's not nearly as clear as the Leupold 1-4 I usually have on that gun, but for about $200 it's a pretty good scope. Doesn't have adjustable parallax, which is a downside. It does have mildot reticle and resettable target style turrets.
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Nightforce is kind of the Std. of lower dollar acceptable quality optics.
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Any of you guys ever shoot with a Shepards scope? My buddy had one on his 308 and we were shooting 600 yards with ease. They are out of Waterloo. I'm not sure what power ratings they have, but I want one of those after shooting with it.
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Glass is kinda crap for the money. No windage knob. I do not care at all for BDC reticles for any kind of supposedly "Long range gun." Although, the max range you quoted (~540m) was just at the upper area of what is traditionally considered intermediate range.
In meters:
-300 Short range
300-600 medium range
600-900 long range
900+ Extreme long range
BDC reticles or pre-marked dials are fine if ALL variables stay the same ALL the time:
-Caliber (don't put it on another stick)
-Muzzle Velocity (don't change loads)
-Ballistic Coefficient (don't change rounds)
-Barrel Harmonics (minor differences between similar length barrels are usually negligible, but don't put a brake or can on)
-Slope (angle to the target)
-Temp
-Humidity
-Barometric pressure/Altitude
-probably one or two that I am forgetting
I'm gonna take it that David only finds USO or S&B acceptable ;) Just my opinion: Nightforce is the best bang for the buck in the higher quality glass.
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My remington 700 308 has a luepold vx2 3-9 power. My ar 15 223 and remington 700 vtr 204 ruger both have luepold vx3 30mm tube 6-20 power with adjustable parallax. 308 is my deer gun. Other 2 are pdog and coyote.
On the vx-3 scopes they are awesome. Usually have them at 10 to 14. Anything more and they mirage to much. The pdog towns i hit are hard to get shots over 350 yards because of hilly terrain but i have hit at over 400. Rangefinder only goes to 400.
On the 308, sometimes i wish had 4-12 power but i wont shoot deer over 250 yards. While hunting i have it at 4 power.
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Sorry. Vx3 are adjustable objective. Not parrallax.
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RE: Shepherd's Scopes
I like my Shepherd scope.
Dan Shepherd runs his small but potent operation from right here in Nebraska [Waterloo, NE, as stated above].
Some time ago I was working with Dan to bring his scope parts manufacturing operations onshore [Japan to USA]. He was kind enough to give me one of his 3X10 prototype scopes [no model/serial number].
This particular scope has vertical range distance markers out to 1000 yards in 100 yard increments. It also has his unique patented split-reticle "one-shot sight-in" feature, which really works quite well. Saves a lot of ammunition and aggravation during sighting in.
The scope is mounted on my Marlin .22Magnum Microgroove bolt action intermediate range prairie dog rifle. I make no claims for extremely long kills with that combination, but will state that it is quite deadly for the purpose.
Shepherd's Scopes are now caliber-specific.
sfg
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Kozball, do you have sticker shock yet? lol. Usually you get what you pay for in the glass dept. I have a shootin' buddy who is forever sighting in his eyesore cheap scopes. They are nothing more than time vampires.
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Look into a swfa super sniper. They are a great deal. Have one on my 308 and it is tits.
I prefer the FFP because it makes ranging so simple. I dont think I will ever go back.
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Sticker shock would be a mild description of what I am thinking. And other things. :-\
All of you make some great points with the info that you are offering. The thing that bothers me is that I don't have any point of reference. I am a 55 yr old rookie with old eyes. Only scoped rifle that I have shot is a 30-30 Marlin 336, and that was last fall. Don't have any knowledge of the 308 cartridge. Can't even fathom trying to hit a target at 600 yds, let alone 800 or so. With my eyes I was figuring on getting a strong scope, but with your info, and the fact that my technique is probably crap, I don't want to go full out on a high dollar scope. Right now I am thinking about something around the 4x16 range with a cost of between $300 - $600.
Product knowledge is easy to figure out with the info you all have provided, but someone like me could get behind a Simmons or Swvorski and not tell the difference until someone actually showed me the difference. Remember when you got your 1st scope, and after you had a chance to figure out the glass and features, then you had a point of reference to get just what you needed in your 2nd scope. And continued to learn from that point on.
Learning sucks when it is expensive. ???
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kozball...............
Mostly right now you simply need to get in some extended shooting with a scoped rifle at different ranges.
Upon first seeing the 6" diameter black circle at 200 yards, I couldn't believe that anyone would ever expect us to ever hit that target, especially offhand. However, using the M1 Garand (a .308 bullet), we not only consistently hit that target with iron peep sights, we would very consistently put 10 out of 10 into a man-sized silhouette target at 500 yards from prone position. With iron sights.
So---you need to put some rounds downrange and get started. Maybe a knowledgeable buddy would help. You'll be pleasantly surprised at how quickly you develop your distance shooting skills.
Probably be picking off prairie dogs at 400 meters by the end of the first month.
sfg
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I like my Nikon Monarch 4-16X44
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Been following this trying to figure out my response. I'm the guy that went with a lot of magnification,and with a scope that most would consider inadequate quality for long range. I had a Tasko 4-20 x 54, this was a scope that came out of the long closed Tasko Custom Shop. While I understand a lot of what folks have forgo elms with these large heavy with way too much magnification scopes have for issues I loved mine. In fact I used that 7mm Rem mag. For hunting (sitting is a stand) when I had a large area to cover, I took 2 deer with that rifle in 3 years before I got rid of it, one at 400 yards and the other right at 1/2 mile (I was just off the road and the dear was standing just beyond the fence at the half mile line). But most people do not have places where they can even think about taking long shots like that, let alone try to train and prepare for it.
The best recommendation I can make is buy the best scope you can afford now, does it need to break the bank, no, but get something you think you may like, and as SFG said practice, with lots of practice and going over the basics and practicing them you can easily get to hitting at those ranges. The make and type of scope is kind of like what is the best combat handgun, we all have an opinion and it is based upon what has worked for us and how we trained. If you train differently what will work best for you will be differnt from what works best for us.
Wish Istill had that rifle and scope, should not have traded it for my marlin 450.
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I think the biggest difference in glass will be shown at dusk and dawn when light is low. The higher quality glass will gather more light. Looking through quality glass will be brighter in low light then naked eye will be. If you look at noon. Probably wont tell a diff. Hopefully that makes sense.
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Been doing alot of reading off and on. AND Thanks for all the info.
Something that has not been discussed is tube size. For low light conditions, have you seen an advantage to the 30mm tube over the 1". I even saw a Millet that comes in 35mm and has rings in the package. I realize that glass is king, but a 25% increase in tube size should allow more light ?
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The main reason is larger tubes (like bigger pipe) are (1) more durable (2) larger tubes mean the adjustments/reticle is able to have more travel and this means more elevation and windage adjustment.
The effect on light transmission of larger vs smaller tubes is negligible compared to the effect of larger vs smaller objective lenses.
I would stay away from oddball tube sizes.
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I would stay away from oddball tube sizes.
You mean the 35mm as odd ?, and 30mm is OK. I assume.
Just did some reading on Vortex. Anyone have any history with them?
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35 isnt odd ball. it is easy enough to find rings for. they are more expensive though.
also, the quality of the glass is the biggest factor in light transmission over objective size and tube size.
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they are more expensive though.
exactly
also, the quality of the glass is the biggest factor in light transmission over objective size and tube size.
of course, as the OP already stated.
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I don't know if you are interested in Leupold's, but Midway is has a pretty good sale on blemished scopes.
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First off: What is it for?
Unless you are doing competitive target shooting, or that weird equipment contest that is Bench-Rest ...... then all these GearHead Uberspendy scopes are just guilding the lilly......
Koz, I think you might be better served investing in trigger time with an inexpensive rifle and scope than spending a huge amount of money on equipment your inexperience will not allow you to appreciate. I don't have the skills to justify hunting with $1K piece of glass atop my $400 rifle.... I don't think the animals would be any deader if my scope said Swarovski, Nightforce, or Leupold, ...... and I don't shoot far enough to need the Palomar Observatory atop the gun, either..... my dinky 3x9x32 :o Simmons Deerfield on my .270 WIN will get me to 400 yards with all the bullets in a 10" circle. That scope has been on there since at least the early 90's, and works year in, year out. They are available on e-bay for as little as 25 bucks.
"It is a rare marksman that can shoot up to his equipment."- Jeff Cooper
I think the answer to "What's the best scope?" is the same as the answer to "What's the best rifle?"
The answer is: the one you have! Master that, and then move up to something pricier.
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Glass is great but everyone has a budget. Guy had a spotting scope on tripod. I peeked through it and saw holes, asked what it was pointed at. 50cal bullet holes on paper at 1 mile. Better gun and better optics that what my house cost.
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A little off track here. When mounting the scope base to the rifle, has anyone needed to chase the threads in the mounting holes on the reciever? My new Savage seems to have some gunk in the holes so the screws do not go in smootly. Was able to get three in, but the 4th will not go at all. Internet rumor is that this is common on the Savage Rifles.
Think the tap needs to be 6-48. Any ideas on where to purchase one locally?
Thanks again.
Koz