NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => General Firearm Discussion => Topic started by: Famous556 on November 19, 2012, 07:17:15 PM
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Hi folks,
So I am thinking about getting a bolt action rifle. Something for medium range scoped shooting, maybe out to about 4-500 yards or so. I'm pretty set on .308 since its popular and I already have plenty of .223 guns. For the time being I would use the rifle primarily for learning this type of shooting and just basic target shooting. I live in the country so a range is not an issue. I also may use the rifle for hunting but not at this time, just looking for something to shoot paper or steel at longer distances with. I currently own a couple AR15s and rarely shoot over 100 yards now with irons or an eotech.
I started looking at Remington 700s simply because of their name and reputation of being solid, accurate rifles. Looking online I find that there are about 40 variations currently in their lineup. Being as I am new to this game I don't even know where to start looking. I've learned that some have detachable mags and some do not. For my immediate purposes it doesn't really matter but I would prefer a detachable mag given the option. I am not absolutely set on the Remington either if there are other, cheaper, better, whatever options out there feel free to share your input. Budget is under $1000
I'm liking the look of the SPS tactical but the 20" BBL seems like it would lose velocity or accuracy over the more typical 24"... Doesn't have to be a tacticool black gun either, stainless is sharp looking too.
Thanks for your input.
Cliffnotes:
Looking for a .308 bolt gun
New to long (medium?) range shooting
Confused by Remington 700 lineup but like the SPS tactical
Under $1000
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There are several to pick from.
If the $1000 includes glass then you may be limited.
I just picked up the new Marlin X7VH TAC
(http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh88/sparky0068/PB170082.jpg)
I'm working up a review for this, but I need to get some more trigger time with it without the wind.
It's an 18" threaded heavy barrel, and so far it shoots great, not perfect but so far I am very pleased.
I picked it up for $480
Savage, Sako, Tikka, Remington, Marlin, Weatherby, Ruger, and others have about the same performance with different features.
I chose the marlin due to price point and features. I consider the short barrel 308 to be used in a mid-range/designated marksman role(<600 yards).
Hope this helps, I was in the same boat for about a month kicking around all of the major brands.
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Famous556
You might want to consider a Remington 788.
Under Looking to Buy a .308 elsewhere in today's Forum, a poster mentions that a friend of his has such rifle, $300 OBO.
Now........I've had three of these Rem788 puppies in three different calibers and each one was a superior tack driver. The .223 was my prairie dog rifle and the .22-250 was the coyote gun. They have that 9-lug action with the cantilevered bolt. And--as I recall--a detachable magazine.
Remington quit making the 788 models because the accuracy/$ was such a bargain for shooters that it was adversely affecting the sales of the 700 series rifles.
Worth considering.
sfg
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I was looking into a .308 and specifically a rem 700 as I have loved my 22.250 model 700 vssf II. I put a post on here about people that had one up for sale, long story short... found a couple- this one really spiked my eye. Tika T3 Lite .308 that in great condition, hardly shot. Let me know if you want the guys contact info. I ended up buying an AR 15 yesterday so... won't be buying a .308 most likely :(
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There are quite a few savages that can be had for a good price. And some weatherby vanguards. But if you want an easily customizable one a Remmy 700 is the way to go. You could start off with a 700 sps for about 4-500 bucks and then get a Nikon Monarch and still have some funds left for ammo.
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There is getting to be a decent selection for aftermarket parts for savages as well, but remmy is still king. A factory remmy with a good chassis will serve most people well, that is what I started out on. The weakest point of most factory bolt actions is the stock.
Eventually got to the point where I could shoot as well as the rifle and upgraded. As long as the round count is not excessively high, remmies hold a decent value (better than some others) if for nothing more than the serial numbered receiver for people starting custom jobs (how I unloaded mine with 1500 rounds down the tube for trade value of $500)
Your barrel length concern:
.308s tend to gain the vast majority of their velocity within the first 16-18 inches, and everything after that is peanuts. The only thing you are gaining with a barrel longer than 18" is weight and a few FPS of muzzle velocity. Velocity has nearly nothing to do with accuracy, aside from a very negligible gain in wind bucking. I push a 20" .308 to 1000m with no problems, as do many others with 16 or 18 inch barrels. At the ranges you are talking about, you have zero reasons to have anything longer than 18"
As with everything, it all depends on what you want to do with it...
For an intermediate range (300-600m) platform for learning, I would suggest a .223. Match grade .223 will run you much cheaper than .308 (if you handload, then this doesn't matter as much), and external ballistics at the ranges you are talking about are farely comparable. Terminal ballistics for .223 do become questionable beyond 300 or so, if you care about such things.
As already mentioned: is $1000 for just the boomstick or for the whole package?
The SPS Tac would work fine. Start out with that and quality glass and rings (NF, S&B, USO) since glass can't be upgraded, buy once cry once (lower quality glass doesn't tend to hold its value for resale) Get matching dials and reticule, and parallax control. Zero stops are great, but you will likely never need it at the ranges mentioned. A fixed 10x would work fine for you (mine is 3.5-15X and it is always on 15X, no reason to dial down), don't worry about getting super high mag (>~20X), and don't waste your money on FFP (there are only a few shooters in the world who actually make use of it, for everyone else it is just a status symbol). Use blue loctite: Set relief, mount, lap, test, level mount, test, plum line, box test, and you are GTG.
If you're just gonna shoot off the bench or prone flat range style, the harris bipods will work, but so will a pack for much cheaper. If you want to get into some improvised positions in less than ideal circumstances, get an atlas.
If you stick with it, then eventually upgrade to a quality stock and custom bedding or chassis system, then you can worry about detachable mags (you don't need to worry about that now). Adjustable combs are the greatest thing since sliced bread and can help out a shooter of any skill level, adjustable length of pull is good too.
If you get to where you can outshoot the weapon, and want to upgrade down the road, then just trade it out (used custom jobs can be had for a steal, since everyone wants to build their own, even though it is insanely expensive and a pain in the ass). If you want to push out further, be sure to get a level.
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I'm working up a review for this, but I need to get some more trigger time with it without the wind.
Scared? :P
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Nope :P
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I bought a 700 last year for just the same reason that you're looking to buy one. I'd never shot beyond about 200-250 yards and I wanted to learn. For me the 700 is a great fit to meet this goal. I bought the SPS Tactical and put on a one-piece Badger Ordinance mount and Badger rings and a fixed power 20X SWFA SS scope. All in, I'm probably just a tad over your budget.
Here's a 100 yard group from an outing a couple weeks ago. (The rifle is sighted for 200 yards so ~1" high at 100 yards.)
(http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/Mudinyeri/Mobile%20Uploads/2012-10-23_13-04-05_842.jpg)
Edit: Get ready to spend more on ammo than you spent on the rifle.
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Edit: Get ready to spend more on ammo than you spent on the rifle.
Load your own!
Especially if you're long range rifle shooting. Fire formed cases, an ammo recipe and seating depth tailored to how your particular rifle likes it... and you'll consistently put factory ammo to shame ... and get 3-10x as much trigger time! :P
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I like using foreign-made military ammo in my precision .308.
That way I have a ready-made excuse when my group sizes suck. :)
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Thank you all for the great responses I truly appreciate it, that's what I love about this forum.
Aftermarket support is huge to me. It's one of the main things I consider when making any purchase whether it be a car or a rifle. That plus coming from the AR15 world I'm spoiled as the aftermarket for those guns is literally endless. For this reason the Remington stands out even more to me.
After some searching today I have found information that reinforces what has been presented here about the 20" barrel not making much if any difference over the 24"
To answer some of the questions, the $1000 budget was a number that is thrown out there. It could be more depending on what the value of the added expense is.
As far as optics/scopes go I know you get what you pay for but I also know that I won't need the best of the best for my purposes. Something solid without a lot of features I won't use.
I read this article today and found it very useful for explaining the different things that wallace11bravo was talking about.
http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/anatomy_of_a_tactical_bolt_action_rifle__the_rif/ (http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index.php/articles/anatomy_of_a_tactical_bolt_action_rifle__the_rif/)
wallace11bravo: From what I'm reading about first focal plane scopes, it doesn't even matter unless the scope has variable magnification, correct?
So I'm thinking my next step is to go check out some of these rifles you have all discussed and see which ones feel best in my hands.
Does Moeller Sporting Arms carry bolt guns like what I'm looking for? I'm thinking of paying him a visit since he is a forum sponsor and others have had good things to say about him.
ETA forgot the scope link
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You are welcome to check out the Marlin, shoot me a message.
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As far as optics/scopes go I know you get what you pay for but I also know that I won't need the best of the best for my purposes. Something solid without a lot of features I won't use.
wallace11bravo: From what I'm reading about first focal plane scopes, it doesn't even matter unless the scope has variable magnification, correct?
So I'm thinking my next step is to go check out some of these rifles you have all discussed and see which ones feel best in my hands.
That is correct. Although they could build a FFP fixed mag scope, there would be absolutely no point.
There are a ton of good glass options in the lower $$ range, try snipershide.com for used scopes. The key points you want are matching reticle and dials (I go with mils, but MOA works just fine) and parallax control. Anything else is good (variable mag, zero stop) but not necessary.
SWFA and Vortex are both considered good quality for the dollar. Stay away from leupolds, they can't pass a box test but once in a blue moon.
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Load your own!
Especially if you're long range rifle shooting. Fire formed cases, an ammo recipe and seating depth tailored to how your particular rifle likes it... and you'll consistently put factory ammo to shame ... and get 3-10x as much trigger time! :P
^This. I can handload better ammo than I can buy, for much much cheaper. Resulting not so much in a fatter wallet, but more time on the range.
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^This. I can handload better ammo than I can buy, for much much cheaper. Resulting not so much in a fatter wallet, but more time on the range.
+99 Nothing like shooting less than half moa groups with bullets you made. And that is on a "cheap" lee press with lee dies. I have learned not to skimp on the scale though. The Chargemaster 1500 dispenser/scale combo is wonderful. A little slower than manual dispensers but more accurate imo
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I dunno. The 700 really hasn't been around that long. I'd go for a rifle with an established track record.
:P
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Regarding loading your own ... I agree that an experienced individual can load far more consistent rounds and dial them in better than factory rounds. However, if you're not already in the reloading "business", it's not cheap to get into it - especially if you want to load precision rounds. Even if you decide to load your own and if you exclude the cost of the reloading equipment, you'll spend more in ammunition than you spent on your rifle in pretty short order.
I have the good fortune to have a friend who is a licensed ammunition manufacturer and who specializes in loads for precision long-range shooting. I'm still just over $1.00/round for match grade ammo (tailored to my rifle by an expert).
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Chargemaster 1500 dispenser/scale combo
Good GRIEF!!! Buying one of those would burn through the next 6 months of my loading budget!
Just how good is it? I have heard both good and bad things about electric scales over the last 2 years, more bad than good. To drop that big a chunk of change for what might end up being an expensive door stop would just totally bum me out.
Ron
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I've got a cheapy MEC electric reloading scale ($20-$30). It's been very consistent.... and the 'tear' function electric scales have is just all too handy. Doesn't auto dispense, naturally.
I am a bit curious about the auto dispensing electric scales. How do they handle different types of powder ? Super fine ball (Win296), flakey discs (Unique), or some of the chunkier rifle powders (extruded stuff) ?
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I am a bit curious about the auto dispensing electric scales. How do they handle different types of powder ? Super fine ball (Win296), flakey discs (Unique), or some of the chunkier rifle powders (extruded stuff) ?
I'm curious about this too. I've been thinking of buying an auto dispensing scale. For most of my shooting I just use my scale to set my powder measure and don't weigh each individual charge, but I do very little bench or other precision shooting. When I load up a thousand or so rounds of prairie dog ammo it would be nice, though.
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I don't load myself, but I have a good friend who is a licensed ammo manufacturer. He uses a manual scale for precision stuff. His loads helped me produce the group pictured above, BTW.
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I use a Lyman dispenser/trickler, and I should have spent the money on an RCBS. The lyman does the job, just takes longer as it has a tendency to throw charges .1-.3 grains over.
That being said, if I am looking for 44.0gr, I'll set if for 43.8. The charge usually comes up at 43.9 or 44.0, if I am lucky. I'll lightly tap the tube to get to 44.0. I re-calibrate the scale every 10 charges. I double check all charges on a second scale.
I use only Varget powder, and the extruded stuff requires you to put a dampener on the end of the dispensing tube. The machine learns to relate speed and duration of rotation to X weight per X amount of time. The scale counts up as it is dispensing, then it beeps when it is finished and the scale resets. Even though it will say it stopped at 44.0 grains, after beeping and resetting it often says something like 44.1 or 44.2. No biggie, just throw that powder back in, and set the pan back. It automatically starts a new charge.
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Well... tell us what you bought??
Greg
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Good GRIEF!!! Buying one of those would burn through the next 6 months of my loading budget!
Just how good is it? I have heard both good and bad things about electric scales over the last 2 years, more bad than good. To drop that big a chunk of change for what might end up being an expensive door stop would just totally bum me out.
Ron
Funny story about this. My first one had problems dispensing a certain range of Titegroup for my 38 special so I got a free shipping label from them and sent it in. They sent me one with a lcd screen that was finicky in the middle, worked fine but a few lcds didn't work at first. I emailed them again asking for another return shipping label and a new Chargemaster. They ended up sending me a new Chargemaster and no return shipping label. I emailed them asking for a label one more time and never got a response. So now I have 2 chargemasters (my roommate uses the one with a finicky lcd screen) and one is perfectly fine while the one that didn't have a working lcd when I first got it has started working. Great customer service imo :)