NFOA MEMBERS FORUM
General Categories => Laws and Legislation => Topic started by: GreyGeek on March 11, 2013, 03:52:58 PM
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I was riding in the back seat of my daughter's car, going with her, my wife and my grandson to the MIT that he was playing in Saturday. I wasn't carrying because the event is on a campus. But, a question arose in my mid: "If she were stopped would I have to tell the officer I was a CHP holder, even if I wasn't carrying, and/or the officer never 'contacted' (69-2440) or spoke to me?"
IOW, what does "contact" mean?
http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=s6924040000 (http://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=s6924040000)
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If the officer does not "officially" contact you (which he probably will), you do not have to mention to him. My presumption of "official" contact is his/her acknowledgement of you and others in the vehicle. Personally, I would disclose it to him out of courtesy. Again, MY personal thoughts. With regards to going to the event on campus, you are okay to carry concealed as long as the gun is locked up accordingly when you exit the vehicle. No reason to become a potential victim going to and fro.....
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Nebraska Law does not require you to say anything if you are not carrying.
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As I understand it, if you are the passenger you do not unless he ask for your ID.
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As I understand it, if you are the passenger you do not unless he ask for your ID.
Reading the law, I see nothing about being asked for an ID. That's why I asked here, where the experienced, and some LEO's, visit.
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How do you define "official contact"? During a traffic stop, is the driver is normally the only person in the vehicle having "official contact".
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My understanding is 'official contact' is if a LEO requests your ID.
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As I understand it, if you are the passenger you do not unless he ask for your ID.
This. If you are not carrying you have no duty to do anything other than what you would normally do when stopped by the police. If you choose to be courteous then you could inform the officer of your CHP and that you're not carrying, but unless he runs your ID or name he wouldn't know anyways.
My understanding of an official contact is anything beyond the normal small talk passing in the street type of stuff. I'm not sure there is an exact definition but as some others have suggested here if LEO is asking for your ID I would consider that an official contact... however I wouldn't consider that the be all end all qualification for official contact. Use your good judgement.
I would also agree with Rod that during a typical stop the driver is the only one having official contact, but if the attention or questioning is turned to you as a passenger for any reason I would say that would then be an official contact to you as well. HOWEVER, If I was carrying and was a passenger I would offer this information to an officer whether he was paying me any attention or not. Seems like a grey area that could potentially lead to a CHP violation charge and maybe a conviction under the right circumstances. Again judgement here is key.
This is all my opinion of course and may not be worth anything to anybody else. I'm not a lawyer and have no legal training. I'm just sharing what I myself would consider official contact.
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My Two Cents:
If you're not carrying you don't have to say anything.
If you are carrying - you *have* been stopped. As a passenger, you can't get out of the car and walk away, now can you ?
Declare yourself.
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Seems like a grey area that could potentially lead to a CHP violation charge and maybe a conviction under the right circumstances.
That is my concern, especially if an aggressive prosecutor is against you, or you are in Omaha. As I read it the law is not clear, but the way many prosecutors read the law these days they can find a law which makes almost any event a potential felony, even something minor like "resisting arrest" for protesting the demand to stop video taping them doing their work in a public place.
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No One Alive Has Ever Seen a Clear, Unambiguous, Written Definition of the Term.........
Official Contact
sfg
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No One Alive Has Ever Seen a Clear, Unambiguous, Written Definition of the Term.........
Official Contact
sfg
or Conspicuous notice
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That is my concern, especially if an aggressive prosecutor is against you, or you are in Omaha. As I read it the law is not clear, but the way many prosecutors read the law these days they can find a law which makes almost any event a potential felony, even something minor like "resisting arrest" for protesting the demand to stop video taping them doing their work in a public place.
Here is what the law says: "For purposes of this section, contact with a peace officer means any time a peace officer personally stops, detains, questions, or addresses a permitholder for an official purpose or in the course of his or her official duties." To get any more vivid than that, I would suggest that we think about what the story of this particular law probably is.
I wasn't in the state when all of this was negotiated, but I imagine that this requirement to notify LEOs of a concealed handgun on your person is the result of someone objecting to allowing legal concealed handguns in Nebraska because then "officers encountering people on the street won't know who is armed!" Now, we know that this is a silly objection, because the people likely to shoot their way out of a traffic stop are probably not the types to go and get a concealed handgun permit in the first place, nor are they the types to dutifully follow the letter of the CHP statute about when they are supposed to tell the police that they are packing. Nonetheless, this is the "danger" that lawmakers were presumably trying to avoid. (To be fair, they may have been thinking that this might prevent a permitholder from alarming cops who otherwise could be surprised at the sudden sight of a gun and get someone hurt.)
With this presumed purpose in mind, it seems to me that legislators envisioned that with their law, if on a dark and stormy night an officer walks up to a car with four people in it, any of those four who is a permitholder and is carrying would announce this to the officer. The officer would then follow the procedure set out in subsection (3) of the statute and either decide to disarm the permitholder or not. If a cop disarms a permitholder, he can only do so for the duration of the contact, a.k.a., as long as it takes to finish whatever his other business is and to determine that the person isn't a threat to anyone present, that they aren't about to be arrested, and that there is no reason why their permit would be invalid. (Obviously, if you are going to jail he probably isn't going to be giving your gun back right away.)
I have not done any research into the case law, so I'm shooting from the hip here, but my bending-over-backwards-to-stay-out-of-trouble advice would be that if you are ever in a situation where you have to speak in person with a police officer about a matter that he is investigating, or if you are in any circumstance with an officer where you can't just stand up and briskly walk away, you should probably keep your hands in plain view and take the very first convenient opportunity to calmly say, "Sir, I believe I'm required to tell you that I am a CHP holder, and I am carrying today."
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This. If you are not carrying you have no duty to do anything other than what you would normally do when stopped by the police. If you choose to be courteous then you could inform the officer of your CHP and that you're not carrying, but unless he runs your ID or name he wouldn't know anyways.
My understanding of an official contact is anything beyond the normal small talk passing in the street type of stuff. I'm not sure there is an exact definition but as some others have suggested here if LEO is asking for your ID I would consider that an official contact... however I wouldn't consider that the be all end all qualification for official contact. Use your good judgement.
I would also agree with Rod that during a typical stop the driver is the only one having official contact, but if the attention or questioning is turned to you as a passenger for any reason I would say that would then be an official contact to you as well. HOWEVER, If I was carrying and was a passenger I would offer this information to an officer whether he was paying me any attention or not. Seems like a grey area that could potentially lead to a CHP violation charge and maybe a conviction under the right circumstances. Again judgement here is key.
This is all my opinion of course and may not be worth anything to anybody else. I'm not a lawyer and have no legal training. I'm just sharing what I myself would consider official contact.
I think your instincts are good here.
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I don't really see any terribly negative consequences for choosing to err on the side of caution here... So that's what I would choose. Worst case scenario you are disarmed for the duration of the stop.
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From the NSP Rules and Regs: https://statepatrol.nebraska.gov/media/10070/ccwregs.pdf
002.05 “Contact with a peace officer” shall mean that the permit holder has been stopped, detained, questioned or addressed by a peace officer for an official purpose or in the course of his or her official duties.
I guess if you are in a car that has been stopped, technically you have been detained, as you ARE NOT FREE to jump out of the car and leave. So if you are in a vehicle that has been stopped, you would have an obligation to tell the Officer.
As mentioned elsewhere above, if you are not carrying then you are not required to inform them.... However if the Officer were to take your drivers license for a data check, it is a wise idea to tell them up front you are a permit holder whether carrying or not.
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I was going to type something, then I read Chris's response. What he said.
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I have had something similar happen twice while I was carrying. Both were in Johnson county.
The first time the car I was in was pulled over, and the officer asked for the driver's information I informed her I was a CHP holder, and was carrying on my right hip. She said thanks and went about her business with the driver.
I later talked to an OPD friend of mine about the situation, and he said I was required to inform. While not directly being addressed, I was being detained for an official purpose.
The second time was in a small town, I had pulled into a deer check station and a deputy pulled in behind me. He had seen the antlers in the bed of the pick up and wanted to see what I had shot. We talked deer for a few minutes, then he asked to run my license before I went on my way. It was at THAT point I declared to him. He didn't seem to care at all.
On a side note, the deer check station was closed that morning, so he worked through dispatch to find me the nearest open station so I could get it checked and off for processing. Good guy.
...you ARE NOT FREE to jump out of the car and leave...
The litmus test for me is whether if I can freely walk away...
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then he asked to run my license before I went on my way. It was at THAT point I declared to him. He didn't seem to care at all.
pfinn....situations like this give me pause for "concern" i.e. LEO on a "fishing expedition". I was not there, but based upon you report i.e. he pulled you over to see your deer, I believe I would have questioned his/her RAS for wanting to see "my papers". Starting to stray a little off topic and I would have complied with their request, but still bothersome.....
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...I would have questioned his/her RAS for wanting to see "my papers". Starting to stray a little off topic and I would have complied with their request, but still bothersome.....
He can ask whatever he wants, I knew my rights and I chose to comply. He couldn't compel me to give him anything without reasonable suspicion. Him asking didn't bother me at all, but I did figure we had moved into the realm of "Official Contact" at that point.