What I have experienced at shooting matches

[OnTheFly]

It was not meant for you jth. I asked for clarification in my original post and received it from Julie. If I asked in a manner that came across differently oh well.

I take offense to Flys post.

Maybe I (and apparently most everyone else who has re-affirmed my thoughts) took your question the wrong way.  I did not mean it as an attack.  Please elaborate on where you were going with your question.

Fly

[gsd]

I got all the information I needed from Julie's post. No further clarification is needed.

Match rules dictate it, fair enough. End of story.

[OnTheFly]

Match rules dictate it, fair enough. End of story.

I'm sorry gsd, but this is my OCD speaking.  My post had really nothing to do with the rules of any game, and was much more about the lackadaisical attitude towards safe gun handling.  I am talking about people learning and applying the same safe gun handling skills regardless of whether they are at a match or at home.  And when someone points out an error, the shooter should take it to heart as they work to make sure it doesn't happen again.

Fly

[David Hineline]

Nothing to do with match rules, common sense says never to point a gun at something you do not want to destroy. Never means never, it does not matter if 25 people checked the firearm to see if it is unloaded, Never point a firearm at something you do not want to destroy.

If your intention is to destroy your arm by sweeping across it with the muzzle of a firearm, then this comment does not apply to you.

[gsd]

Here is a novel idea:

I am not that guy. So drop it.

[sidearm1]

I know I shouldn't but!   I have now painted all of my range bags with an bright hunter orange end.  Now I can be sure that I am not pointing my weapon at anything I don't wish to destroy.  I haven't figured out yet how to put it in the trunk since it is pointing at my car (or someone sitting in the seats), or its pointing at the car behind me. (all above is tongue in cheek, so please don't yell.)

YES, FIREARMS SAFETY IS VERY IMPORTANT.  CHECK FOR CLEAR, HAVE THE NEXT SHOOTER CHECK YOUR WEAPON FOR CLEAR.  THEN RECHECK.  ONCE VERIFIED, THEN LEAVE IT ALONE.  ANY WEAPONS MISHANDLING ON THE RANGE IS DQ.

[OnTheFly]

I know I shouldn't but!   I have now painted all of my range bags with an bright hunter orange end.  Now I can be sure that I am not pointing my weapon at anything I don't wish to destroy.  I haven't figured out yet how to put it in the trunk since it is pointing at my car (or someone sitting in the seats), or its pointing at the car behind me. (all above is tongue in cheek, so please don't yell.)

ACTUALLY YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT! Sorry about yelling.   My best example of what you are pointing out is when I appendix carry.  The muzzle is always pointed at something I DON'T want to destroy.  The femoral artery, or my man bits.  The dividing line on your point and what I am talking about is whether the gun is being handled.  Placed in a safe bag, box, case, holster...this is a different subject.  However, if possible, my OCD forces me to still point the firearm away from things that would be devastating if shot, such as people, etc.

Fly

[jonm]

Does anyone dry fire practice? If so, what do you point at then?

[OnTheFly]

Does anyone dry fire practice? If so, what do you point at then?

Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures.  I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. 

Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me.  Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important.  My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.

Fly

[sjwsti]

ACTUALLY YOU BRING UP A GOOD POINT! Sorry about yelling.   My best example of what you are pointing out is when I appendix carry.  The muzzle is always pointed at something I DON'T want to destroy.  The femoral artery, or my man bits.  The dividing line on your point and what I am talking about is whether the gun is being handled.  Placed in a safe bag, box, case, holster...this is a different subject.  However, if possible, my OCD forces me to still point the firearm away from things that would be devastating if shot, such as people, etc.
Fly

Dont you "handle" the gun holstering and drawing from appendix? Would you ever draw from appendix while seated in a vehicle? Sweeping yourself in that example is unavoidable. My point is that there may be unavoidable situations were you will sweep yourself or someone else with a gun. Is there risk? Yep. Can that risk be minimized by training and following other safety rules? Yep. Not like the original post were the sweeping of the arm was avoidable and lazy IMO. There is no excuse for pointing a weapon at yourself or anyone else if it can be avoided.

Ever wonder why employees at busy public ranges get testy on occasion? That safety violation and accompanying attitude is one example of what they deal with on a regular basis. And the main reason why, after 10+ years, I called it quits. I got tired of having to argue with shooters who didnt think the rules should apply to them.

- Shawn

[NENick]

Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures.  I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. 

Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me.  Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important.  My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.

Fly

I keep my weapons trained on our orange cat as much as possible.

[OnTheFly]

Dont you "handle" the gun holstering and drawing from appendix? Would you ever draw from appendix while seated in a vehicle? Sweeping yourself in that example is unavoidable. My point is that there may be unavoidable situations were you will sweep yourself or someone else with a gun. Is there risk? Yep. Can that risk be minimized by training and following other safety rules?

Agreed.  When I was describing the rules of USPSA to a friend and infractions (such as sweeping yourself) that would get you DQ'd, he asked about holstering/unholstering.  Your reply was basically what I told him.  There are obviously times when the gun will unavoidably sweep your body parts.  Holstering and unholstering are probably the best examples. This is not to say that all sweeps during holstering are acceptable.  The most common one is people with (IMHO) poor holsters that they need to hold open with the weak hand.  That's a sweep and DQ waiting to happen.

Ever wonder why employees at busy public ranges get testy on occasion? That safety violation and accompanying attitude is one example of what they deal with on a regular basis. And the main reason why, after 10+ years, I called it quits. I got tired of having to argue with shooters who didnt think the rules should apply to them.

I was thinking a few months back how working at a local range might be kind of fun for some part-time work.  My minimal experience as an RO is making me think that one through a little more.

Fly

[jonm]

Not my wife, kids, dogs, cars, cat, TV, refrigerator, my body parts, sleep number bed, gas cans, windows, microwave, couch, neighbors house, light fixtures.  I'm sure there are other things I am forgetting. 

Generally I try to point it at a concrete, cinder block, or brick wall when I dry fire. Or some other structure that will stop the bullet before it hits something important to me.  Dry wall and wall studs...not really that important.  My wife watching TV two rooms away...pretty darn important.

Fly

Do you intend on shooting your house?

[OnTheFly]

Do you intend on shooting your house?

Well as I see it, we can either throw out that rule, modify it, or say "Yes...the drywall was an acceptable loss and therefore I can say I intended to shoot it".

Maybe the rule would make more sense if it said...

"Do not point the gun at anything you would not consider an acceptable loss or do not want to kill, maim or cause pain to"

I think that would cover most of my list.  Regardless, the intent of the rule is pretty obvious.  If there are any doubts, refer to the first rule of gun safety.

Fly

[jonm]

Got it. So if the rules of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.

[JTH]

Do you intend on shooting your house?

No.  But that isn't what the rule says, now does it? 

It says (at least the variation that I know and teach) don't point the gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.  When I dryfire, I have a specific area in the house that I use, pointed at a section that if the bullet makes it through the brick, it'll go into dirt.  If I put a hole in my bookshelf/wall/dirt, I can live with it.  I'm not planning on doing it---but if I make a mistake and break any the safety rules, I willing to accept the destruction of where I'm pointing the gun.

I'd rather it didn't happen---but that's a different case.  And your change of "willing to destroy" to "intend to destroy" doesn't work, as that is something else entirely.

Your additional contention of: 

So if the first rule of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.

...similarly attempts to change a flat statement into something it doesn't mean. 

[OnTheFly]

Got it. So if the rules of firearm safety goes against what you are trying to do, modify it until it works.

I don't have a problem with understanding and applying the rule, but it appeared from your statement that you wanted more clarification.  The re-write was intended for you so that you could have that more concrete definition that you are seeking. 

Please re-read my statement below...

Regardless, the intent of the rule is pretty obvious.

However, I don't imagine that your beliefs on gun handling are that different than mine.

Would you point the gun at yourself?  Would you point it at a loved one?  Would you point it at your car?  Of course not!  Whatever form of the rule you want to use ("...intend to..." or "...willing to..."), the intent is the same.  Am I willing to ruin my drywall? It's not what I want to do, but if it happens then it is much more acceptable than shooting something important to me.  So if we use "intend to", I'm ok with that because otherwise I would not have pointed my firearm at it.

Fly

[abbafandr]

If you have a good holster, you should not sweep yourself.  In competition, you need a holster you can reholster with one hand.  Not a bad idea for concealed carry either.

[dcjulie]

WOW!  This thread quickly turned from a post someone wrote to illustrate a point to the equivalent of a playground fight. 

Well, since that's the case ... "I''m taking my ball and I'm going home!."

[OnTheFly]

If you have a good holster, you should not sweep yourself.

Agreed.  Regarding my appendix carry that Shawn brought up.  I don't holster the gun while sitting, only standing so that pretty much eliminates my sweeps.  I don't unholster the gun while I'm sitting either, and probably the only time I would is if I needed the gun.  Most of the time I leave the gun in the holster and slide it in my waistband.  With a good holster with retention, this keeps the gun secured and the trigger covered.  I also watch the hammer for any kind of movement whether I am holstering the gun or sliding the holster+gun inside my waistband. 

With my striker fired competition XDm, I put my thumb on the left side of the rear part of the slide (I am right handed).  This gets my grip off of the grip safety which will, if it is in good working order, not allow the gun to be fired.

In competition, you need a holster you can reholster with one hand.  Not a bad idea for concealed carry either.

Also agree.  I don't see any good reason for a holster that has any loose/moving material at the top.

Fly