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Author Topic: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting  (Read 3031 times)

Offline sjwsti

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Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« on: January 17, 2014, 02:57:05 PM »
This is a body camera video of an officer-involved shooting from August 2013 in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. The Bonner County Prosecuting Attorney said he believed Eric Johnston, 38, intended to commit suicide by cop and determined the officer-involved shooting to be justified.

A couple of things to consider; 

1- Physical Condition
I say it in nearly every class I teach but physical conditioning is as important as practicing to shoot for self defense. Listen to the LEOs breathing after the shooting. There is an obvious adrenaline dump (SNS activation)

If we could take his pulse it would also be elevated yet he has done nothing physical.  This was also a slow evolving threat. Your physical reaction (fight or flight) will be more or less severe depending on the perceived threat. If this had happened faster and more violently the physical effects the LEO experienced would be much greater. Is your body prepared for something like this? You want to be in the best physical condition that your present medical condition will allow.

2- Picture yourself in a similar situation
Something goes bump in the night, you arm yourself and go searching through your house. You find someone standing in your kitchen with your carving knife in their hand. Are you going to verbally challenge them? Would you have shot sooner or later that the LEO did in the video? How close would you let someone armed with a knife get to you? Are opportunity, intent and ability present justifying the use of deadly force?

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Offline CitizenClark

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 05:25:24 PM »
[...]
2- Picture yourself in a similar situation
Something goes bump in the night, you arm yourself and go searching through your house. You find someone standing in your kitchen with your carving knife in their hand.

That seems like what happened here... except that the person with the knife was the male who was—it seems—in his own home when a person with a firearm came into his house and shot him for an incident that was triggered by his failing to do some paperwork (and probably failing to take the first steps to make right the damage that he apparently caused to someone else's property in a car wreck).

*CORRECTION: It seems that the guy was at a friend's apartment.

Offline RedDot

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 06:29:03 PM »
Not sure how this relates to a home invasion shooting, unless we're gonna discuss his grouping on an 8 foot shot with elevated pulse...

If we're discussing police procedure, we can talk about body cam placement- seems to get covered when mike is keyed, calling for backup then proceeding into the house without it, threat assessment- seems like individual was only a threat to himself until officer added himself to the equation. 

DA seemed ok with it so I guess officer is lucky he's in Idaho. Close your eyes and just try to imagine the giant can of sh...stuff this would have opened up had it occurred in North Omaha.

Offline Chris C

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2014, 06:35:23 PM »
What should the LEO have done?  OC’d the guy and hope that does the job and he doesn't get cut?

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2014, 06:47:50 PM »
Not sure why it's NOT ok for the guy to cut himself, with nobody else in the dwelling... but it IS ok for the cop to go in and kill the guy because he might cut himself.


Can someone please explain that to me?
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Offline sjwsti

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2014, 07:12:00 PM »
Not sure how this relates to a home invasion shooting, unless we're gonna discuss his grouping on an 8 foot shot with elevated pulse...

I figured this video would be a good way to put yourself in someone else`s shoes. You can make the scenario anything you like. This is what you see, what are you going to do? You may have already made up your mind how you will react in a similar situation but you cant assume everyone on this forum has.

Guess I was thinking more along the line of the decision making process, physical effects of stress and preparation. 

But if you guys would rather discuss LE response to hit and run/suicidal parties we can sure go that route.

BTW this is nothing new to Omaha and has happened on the north side. I was on duty and treated Robert Ventry (the first link) after his first contact with OPD. We also treated his parents who he violently assaulted earlier in the evening. He didnt survive his second contact. I dont recall any protests.

http://masscops.com/threads/neb-police-fatally-shoot-man-with-knife-lunging-at-woman.24508/
http://www.omaha.com/article/20121129/NEWS/711299894
http://www.jrn.com/kmtv/news/Man-in-Surgery-After-Officer-Involved-Shooting-in-Council-Bluffs-218315841.html

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Offline sjwsti

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2014, 07:27:30 PM »
Not sure why it's NOT ok for the guy to cut himself, with nobody else in the dwelling... but it IS ok for the cop to go in and kill the guy because he might cut himself.
Can someone please explain that to me?

Suicide is against the law. So is intentionally hurting yourself. Crazy but true. Say the Police stayed outside and he did kill himself. Then the family sues saying they should have done something to stop him. No win situation for LE.

As far as EMS goes this is implied consent. The suicidal party isnt thinking rationally. It is implied that if they were thinking rationally they would want help. That gives me the legal right to use whatever means I have to in order to prevent you from hurting yourself or anyone else and get you to a hospital. Most of the time this just takes calming the person down and taking them voluntarily. Sometimes it means EPC by LE and sometimes it turns into a fight. The guy in the video made his choice. He wasnt shot because he was cutting himself or "might" cut himself. He was shot when he came out of the kitchen and advanced on the Officer.

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Offline RedDot

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 08:03:38 PM »
I figured this video would be a good way to put yourself in someone else`s shoes. You can make the scenario anything you like. This is what you see, what are you going to do? Guess I was thinking more along the line of the decision making process, physical effects of stress and preparation. 



That's a pretty loose and hairy scenario to pose to folks.  I understand the stress and decision making side of it, but it was presented as from the LEO's point of view via the body cam and you never really stated whose "shoes" folks were supposed to slip into. 

If you're advocating wearing the LEO's shoes in the situation you could be advocating actions that will land the majority of the posters (who are not LEOs) in trouble.  I pointed out things I saw, but my main concern was the way he escalated the situation.  It could have been handled better and I'd bet anything the officer knows that now and wishes it had.  That personal assessment will either make him a better officer or a more dangerous one.

If you meant to pretend the shooter IS the home owner confronted by a knife wielding, unresponsive intruder in YOUR kitchen you should say so. ;) That's a different scenario.

If we're just making up the variables in a scenario, then maybe I'm the guy in the kitchen.  I took my hearing aids out because my ol' lady is *****ing at me for forgetting to tape American Idol last night.  I'm gonna cut up some celery to dip in my Skippy peanut butter before Wheel of Fortune starts and when I come around the corner someone with a gun is barking at me and my wife isn't to be seen.  Guy ventilates me, I'm dead, wife sues department and gets million dollar settlement and moves in with some young guy named Raul in a condo on South Padre Island.  Now how do you train for that scenario? ;D


Offline sjwsti

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 08:39:03 PM »
If you meant to pretend the shooter IS the home owner confronted by a knife wielding, unresponsive intruder in YOUR kitchen you should say so. ;) That's a different scenario.

Thats where I was going. I should have done a better job of explaining that. And for Gods sake make sure you set the DVR to record American Idol. :D

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Offline Tim McBride

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 06:45:39 AM »
Not sure why it's NOT ok for the guy to cut himself, with nobody else in the dwelling... but it IS ok for the cop to go in and kill the guy because he might cut himself.

Can someone please explain that to me?

Let's look at the facts we can ascertain from the video

A LEO announced his presence multiple times before entering beyond the threshold, asked the individual to put the knife down, when the individual advanced he warned that he would shoot him if he continued to advance, the individual continued to advance. We should note the officer in question was even retreating giving space to the individual prior to shooting him.

Reviewing these facts we can say the individual was not killed because he might cut himself, but because he continue to advance upon a person while holding a knife, even after he was told he'd be shot if he continued to advance.

Any reasonable person when confronted by someone who continues to advance upon them with a knife would fear for their life.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 06:51:35 AM by Tim McBride »

Offline Bucket

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 07:35:05 PM »
Interesting.  I noted that they guy had his weapon drawn before he even entered the house.  That tells me there was probably something going on beforehand that we don't know or don't get to see.  In these things, context is everything. 

Based on what we saw, the cop was being approached by a guy with a knife and clearly felt threatened.  We can speculate all day about what could have been done differently, but not knowing the entire scenario it's not all that productive.

The one solid takeaway:  Don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

Offline JTH

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 08:36:25 PM »
Suicide is against the law.

Hm. Sure about that?  Or merely instead that attempted suicide is a legal justification for police use of force?

Used to be "illegal"---isn't in many states now. Instead, ground for pysch eval, etc---but NOT a criminal act.

Statute/citation showing it is a criminal act? I'm curious if there if one, because I couldn't find it.

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Offline Gumby

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Re: Body cam video of an LEO involved shooting
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 09:25:21 PM »
Odd that the LEO kept calling for backup while simultaneously escalating the situation.  He unilaterally confronts the perp by rounding the corner to the kitchen, then calls again for BU once he stirs the perp to action.  This might have been an interesting bean-bag shot gun happening that everyone survived.

That was one slow moving zombie.  But credit the LEO with accuracy... one story indicates he shot the dude five times so he's 5 for 5 in this encounter.  http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/jan/03/no-charges-filed-cda-officer-shooting/.  That's got to be an all-time, nation-wide LEO record.

Back on topic:  I've gone thru mental scenarios of encounters with intruders in our home environment, and now need to realign my thinking.  Clearly, I'm far too liberal in my recognition of what a "deadly threat" is, plus I never imagined having the luxury of so much time to decide to shoot.  And forget the immediate follow-up shot strategy... I wanna learn the Cinco Tap too.   8)