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Author Topic: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st  (Read 9012 times)

Offline JTH

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2014, 09:47:13 AM »
1. Cover garments don't have to be a vest, unless one so chooses to wear it at the match since they choose to wear it daily anyways and that's what they want to practice with.  The IDPA rule only requires that it be concealing the holstered gun when you lift your arms straight to the sides up to shoulder height.  I sometimes choose to wear the vest, but I generally am wearing a shirt that I wear most everyday.  At one of the matches last year, I even chose to wear a clinic lab jacket since that is what I sometimes wear at my private practice office. I've even worn my winter jacket. Granted, a couple of those clothing items may add a slight bit of time to my draw, but my approach to why I participate in IDPA may be different than others....but that is a whole other discussion.  :D

For me, the "vest" part is simply based on the fact that since I can't use my normal carry holster, I'm not going to pay a bunch of money for another quality CCW holster that I'll never use outside of IDPA (traditional IWB prints on me in a stupidly silly fashion, and IDPA requires the holster to be at the side of the body at minimum)---so I'm going to pull out a basic range holster that I already own, which happens to fit the IDPA criteria. 

And because I'm using that basic range holster, I'm not going to simply wear a shirt over it, because it prints ridiculously.  If I was wearing my carry holster, I'd simply wear what I normally wear every day.  But since I'm not, to conceal this holster I have to wear a significantly more voluminous cover garment.

Given that, and since I'll be shooting IDPA in all sorts of weather, it is easiest to pull out a "shoot me first" vest, since it will work in all sorts of weather and clothing, and fulfills the IDPA cover requirement, and I don't have to buy any more gear.  And since this is a game (to my way of thinking, and opinions vary), I might as well use equipment that optimizes my chances of winning. 

Can't use actual carry gear + not buying any more equipment + increased chances of winning -- makes my choice pretty simple.  :)

Quote
2. The IWB appendix carry not being allowed by IDPA is purely for safety reasons, although bullit and I are always "happy" to see participants at IDPA Nebraska matches  ::).  Hopefully, folks who do elect to carry as such are careful in their draw as well as reholster so as not to blow off their privates with a negligent discharge  :o, but such situation would also quickly have adverse ramifications for the host range as well as for the continuance of the IDPA sport at the host range.  :(

I'm thinking that given the large number of people who carry AIWB, and the fact that we don't hear about people shooting off parts of themselves, I'm thinking that potential safety issues are overblown.  That isn't to say that I haven't seen plenty of people who are scary enough already with basic OWB hip holsters---merely that the people who carry AIWB don't seem to be shooting themselves, so perhaps the risk isn't any greater than the risk of people shooting themselves in the leg while drawing or holstering IWB.

However, I understand the thought process, and I understand why IDPA doesn't want to go there.   (Amusingly enough, you can run your AIWB rig from concealment in USPSA if you want to!  Matter of fact, I know someone who does precisely that, though he doesn't shoot around here.)  I disagree with IDPA's opinion, but I understand why they think that way.

Regarding tac lights:  Yes, I normally do have a lanyard on my tac light.  At the moment I don't, however, because it finally broke last week when I was practicing with it.  So at the moment, I'm lanyard-less.  :)
Carry position: pants pocket (I'm normally wearing a version of cargo pants, and there is a front pocket perfect for it).
Lanyard use: Never would put it around my neck.  (That wouldn't even occur to me.)  Have put it around my wrist a couple of times, given situations in which I was going from a light situation to a dark one in which the "dark" area was large enough that I was going to be in it for awhile.  (If the "dark" part isn't that big, I'm playing the odds that with 17+1 rounds to use before I need to reload, I can get back to the light before I need that extra hand back.)
Practice:  Yes, I do.  In both dryfire and live fire---which is why I ALSO know that my one-handed shooting using a light (especially in dim light situations) is both slower and less accurate than two-handed shooting using a weapon-mounted light, in particular the weapon-mounted light-laser combo I currently use.  (I note that I don't have that on my carry gun, that is the home gun. And lights and/versus lasers is a completely 'nother topic.)

Regarding use of lanyards and such in IDPA:  My point is that for a significant number of the situations I can think of in which I'd use a handheld light, I _would_ have already placed it in my hand, and thus would have put the lanyard on.  If I'm taking a long walk to my car in a parking lot that is dimly light, I know this ahead of time. 

Sure, if I'm suddenly surprised when the lights go off, I wouldn't have the lanyard on---but then again, I wouldn't have the light in my hand, either.   And if I'm going to be attacked in 2 seconds, I'm going for my gun and moving fast, not worrying about the light.

But in cases where I had the light in my hand, I can't think of a whole lot of situations that are realistic for my lifestyle (as such, results may vary!) in which I wouldn't have had time to stick my hand through the lanyard first.  Maybe I'm not thinking of the right type of situations...?

Regarding a tug-of-war with the light/lanyard:  Most handheld lights aren't big.  I have a difficult time thinking of anyone trying to take it out of my hand.  And tac light lanyards don't have much extra cord, so it isn't like there is going to be a loop for them to grab.  That being said, if they want to tie up one of their hands attempting to grab an object that is fixed to me, they are welcome to go ahead.  :)

For me though, this is a purely academic argument---mostly based on the number of people who keep telling me that IDPA is "realistic self defense training."  If you think of IDPA as a shooting sport (which I do), these issues aren't important.  It is only if you think of IDPA as "realistic training for self-defense" that a number of these issues crop up.

Regarding O rings and such on handheld lights---you know, when I was at the Rogers Shooting School, he showed us the Rogers method, which is really sweet if you have the right kind of tac light and an o-ring attached to it in the right way.  It is a great method that enables you to have a light and still shoot two-handed with almost the same level of speed and accuracy as normal shooting.  It ALSO takes a very large amount of time and practice to make it work, especially under stress.  Since I had never tried it before, I completely sucked at it.  :)

...I was about to go on about WML and handhelds, then I realized that really was a very different conversation.  So I'm going to start a thread about that in the discussion section elsewhere, so as not to derail this thread further.  :)

Bullit:  didn't EVERYONE argue when playing D&D? 

I note that arguing is actually a good sign, really.  It means that people are thinking about what is going on.  When no one is arguing or discussing, either people aren't thinking, OR things are so bad that no one wants to talk about it.  :)

And healthy discussion means that people often have to support their opinions with facts, which means that sometimes, people learn something.  Or at least get exposed to ideas different than their own!

Granted, it is almost impossible to get a gamer to start thinking realistically....   ;D
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2014, 10:00:40 AM »
Sometimes that rule may not make sense to some people, but IMO it's not something to get all that worked up about as long as the sport is competitive*, fun, and safe.
*emphasis added

You hit the nail on the head.  This is a competition.  While it may try to re-enforce some good defensive pistol skills, it doesn't take 2 nano seconds before people are fully exploiting every rule loophole to WIN.  I would guess, once they get used to the rules/procedures, a USPSA shooter would do quite well because they will be gaming each stage and picking apart how they can save two tenths of a second here and three tenths of a second there.  It is the competitive nature in many of us.  Others will be interested in shooting their daily carry gun and equipment to make sure it functions for them.  As jthhapkido said, if you want real practice/training in self defense, take a class.

Bottom line...it is all good fun.

Fly
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:25:06 AM by OnTheFly »
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Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2014, 10:04:19 AM »
Did you fellas complain this much back when you were playing Dungeons and Dragons?    Geesh.

I didn't play D&D.  I was out skydiving, drinking, and chasing their girlfriends around while they were in their parent's basement playing D&D.  :laugh:

Fly
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2014, 10:18:54 AM »
I didn't play D&D.  I was out skydiving, drinking, and chasing their girlfriends around while they were in their parent's basement playing D&D.  :laugh:

Fly


D&D players had girlfriends for you to chase?

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2014, 10:45:53 AM »
D&D players had girlfriends for you to chase?


Ok...so I went for the chicks that were easy to impress.  Less effort and less rejections.

Fly
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2014, 02:48:56 PM »
"O" ring aficionado here; placed over the support hand index finger.  Invert the hand and it falls right off (the light, not my hand.)  Someone grabs it and starts tugging on it, the "O" ring breaks, even before my old bones would.  After using an "O" ring, I won't go back to lanyards. 

I practice with the light, dryfire wise, but not nearly enough live fire.  (Still too busy trying to learn how to make the gun go "Full Zeeb" while still hitting the target.)  :)

My EDC light has nothing on it, save for the fragile pocket clip.  My main light does obviously have the ring on it and that's the light that's with me when I'm legally able to carry other armament.  When exiting to an after dark parking lot for example, the light is already in my support hand, with the ring in battle ready position.  Unobtrusive and non-threatening.  Just an old gray haired guy looking for his car, if someone should notice it.  (which they don't)

IDPA rules allow the light to be exposed, so I'm going to have to work on this in addition to what I've been doing.  (carrying in front pocket.)

I can see where the IDPA is coming from here.  What constitutes a light retention device and what constitutes a shooting aid?  I guess it's not a bad thing for me to learn alternative methods of handling the light and performing administrative tasks simultaneously.   Just shove the light in the belt and go. 

But it's so much easier to flop the light to the outboard side of my support hand, do what I need to do and flop it back into position.  Again, I don't see this method as an aid to shooting.  Just a slick way to retain a light. 

But I do notice that IDPA rules allow the RO to fire up their light to help the shooter find his or her light should they drop it in the dark.  I seriously doubt that kind of assistance will be available IRL.  More a nod to safety and expediency I 'spose.  Moral of the story:  Don't drop it or carry two.

More complaints forthcoming as I think of them.  :) 

« Last Edit: January 30, 2014, 02:57:47 PM by Lorimor »
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bullit

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2014, 02:50:49 PM »
"O" ring aficionado here; placed over the support hand index finger.  Invert the hand and it falls right off.  Someone grabs it and starts tugging on it, the "O" ring breaks, even before my old bones would.  After using an "O" ring, I won't go back to lanyards. 

I will assume the obligatory TR trademarked "O" ring kit.....

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2014, 02:53:54 PM »
I will assume the obligatory TR trademarked "O" ring kit.....

Um... actually all the parts came from Ace Hardware.  (But, I do have a TR logo'ed Surefire G2 LED on my AR.  Exceptionally tactical.) :)
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2014, 07:56:20 PM »
Well, looks like my company is coming on Sunday, which means I can go to the IDPA match.  Yay!

Unfortunately that means I have to miss the USPSA match.  Boo.

I just remembered I was given a vest years ago that I've never worn.  Guess I should dig it out of the closet.  It doesn't look like a shoot me first vest, though.  It's a Columbia, so I guess it's more of a "Granola eating, non-gun owning yuppie" vest.  The perfect disguise!

Offline bullit

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2014, 08:02:30 PM »
Bkoenig....you only need the vest if you want to. Not a requirement.  Gun just has to be covered

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2014, 08:07:45 PM »
Yeah, I know.  I just figured I might as well use a vest since I have one.

Offline abbafandr

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2014, 08:17:20 PM »
IWB back of hip strong side holster, would IDPA pass holy water on this setup?

Offline Aldo

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2014, 08:23:55 PM »
Glad to see some discussion....and with civility  ;)

Recently joined the IDPA group on FB, and it is incredibly trash-mouthed, and amazingly dissing of IDPA, even though it is an IDPA group.  Why are they even part of the group other than to do just what I've mentioned. Sheesh....  ???

As Admin of the IDPA Nebraska FB site, I wouldn't even give a warning to an individual for disrespectfully trashing and bashing another individual for expressing their thoughts. That is one call of blocking the person out from the site that I wouldn't lose any sleep over.

Again, glad that NFOA has respectful opines...even if there are differences of opines.  8)
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Offline Aldo

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2014, 08:26:59 PM »
IWB back of hip strong side holster, would IDPA pass holy water on this setup?

The individual who came in 3rd at the last match wore an IWB holster on the back of hip strong side, and with an everyday type polo shirt (or something like it)...and no printing.  That's his EDC, too.

Bottom line: yes, such setup has the blessing of IDPA and IDPA Nebraska.
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Offline bkoenig

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2014, 08:32:46 PM »
That's good to know.  My carry holster is worn at about 3:30 - 4:00 so I wasn't sure if it was ok.  Now to decide whether to use it or take the DOH attachment off my other one.

Offline Lorimor

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2014, 08:46:46 PM »
Don't know if there's any rules agin' printing.  I can't find any anyway.  The gun just can't be readily visible.  So I think if it's covered during normal movements, you're good to go. 

I could be wrong, but I can't find language that states otherwise.
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline JTH

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2014, 10:43:34 AM »
Don't know if there's any rules agin' printing.  I can't find any anyway.  The gun just can't be readily visible.  So I think if it's covered during normal movements, you're good to go. 

I could be wrong, but I can't find language that states otherwise.

You aren't wrong.  It says:

"8.9.1. Legal concealment garments hide the holster, firearm, ammunition carriers, and loading devices from view.
8.9.2. The concealment garment test is for the competitor to stand with their arms straight out to the side, parallel to the ground. If the standing SO cannot see the previously listed equipment from the front, sides, or rear, then the concealment garment is legal."

It doesn't say "if the standing SO cannot see any outline or bulge or evidence of printing" --- it says "cannot see".

So I COULD wear tent-clothes instead of a vest over my OWB belt holster.  Or I could wear a tight-fitting top that completely prints, as long as it covers the gun. 

However, I'm just not going to do either of those things.  :)  Like I said, since it can't resemble my EDC, might as well be comfortable in all weather and make it easiest to get to my gear.  Vest for me. 
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Offline Lorimor

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2014, 11:06:45 AM »
I am looking forward to warmer weather and the return of my tent clothes t-shirts complete with clever, witty sayings.  I find dark colored/camo fleece vests make excellent cover garments, but they're simply too warm for summer wear.

I don't get too worked up 'bout the whole "printing" thing.  Most folk are so absorbed in their own lives that a bulge at my waistline won't be noticed.  Maybe I should be more mindful of it but so far, so good.  I am careful though, not to bend over at the waist and if I have to reach high on a shelf at the Scheel's Discount Emporium  for a jug of Bub's Catfish Elixir, I do so with my support hand.  Of course, with winter time and heavy coats it isn't so important. 
"It is better to avoid than to run; better to run than to de-escalate; better to de-escalate than to fight; better to fight than to die. The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." – Rory Miller

Offline OnTheFly

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2014, 11:28:38 AM »
So I COULD wear tent-clothes instead of a vest over my OWB belt holster.

I think I will just wear my usual Clint Eastwood poncho.  Functional AND fashionable.



Fly
« Last Edit: January 31, 2014, 11:31:00 AM by OnTheFly »
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Offline SeanN

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Re: Next IDPA Nebraska Indoor Match February 1st
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2014, 02:05:02 PM »
I will be there. First time shooting IDPA, should be interesting... We'll see if I can keep my feet in place while reloading.  ???

I'm a little sad that Safariland raised the price back up of the holster I use for USPSA and directed a bunch of friends to buy. It was sub $20 for awhile and is a nice holster for the price. Still not too bad at $39 (http://www.holsters.com/concealment/holsters/model5198.asp).

I will probably end up using a Safariland ALS holster I have lying around though, since I don't want to undo the low-ride attachment I have on that holster for USPSA.

Is it legal for me to remove the active retention from a holster? I get about the same draw times either way, just curious.