An argument for training requirements?

[Mntnman]

Tragic. If the kid managed to kill her with the car we wouldn't even have heard about this.

[Mudinyeri]

It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.

This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry.  "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.

[DR4NRA]

It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.

This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry.  "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.

Really, I remember a very well trained gun instructor who got shot in the head because of a little lapse in judgment.
 Or could this and the instructors death be more in tune with Murphy's Law

If it can go wrong, it usually does.
If it can happen, it usually does happen.

 Just because you think you know it, have trained extensively for it, and do everything you can to prevent it, sometimes Murphy' Law and Gremlins just come together to create a perfect storm to prove you are an idiot and there is nothing you are going to be able to do to stop it.

[SS_N_NE]

Just because you think you know it, have trained extensively for it, and do everything you can to prevent it, sometimes Murphy' Law and Gremlins just come together to create a perfect storm to prove you are an idiot and there is nothing you are going to be able to do to stop it.

There used to be a sign at a factory I worked for: "Forget the excuses, accidents are avoidable." (or something similar to that). I often reflect on that sign and understand that most murphy law things fall under my own neglect. Maybe becoming involved in someone else's mistakes could be an exception, but even then, it is possible to recognize many of those potential situations.
The quicker a person takes responsibility for things that happen, the quicker the number of accidents reduce in number. RESPONSIBILITY is the key word here. Education and recongnition (or what ever choice of situational awareness you want to recognize) are individual responsibility. When individuals separate themselves from responsibility with excuses, accidents follow.

[Lorimor]

If a person is negligent, careless and/or stupid, then all the training in the world won't compensate. 

But training requirements are a grand way for overzealous and condescending bureaucrats to keep guns out of the hands of the commoners. 

[grumpy old man]

well if TRUE GUN SAFETY (not gun avoidance) was taught in school like the good ol days that would help.  Here is a major problem with this story. 

1- the lady should of had the gun in a holster.  Even a sticky holster would have worked.  NEVER EVER have a gun around without a holster that covers the trigger. 

2- I doubt the gun was on safety or had safety measures.  Handguns should be on safe unless your about ready to shoot.  All my handguns have a safety measure, a grip safety and a trigger safety.

3- Carrying a handgun in a purse is IMO the worst place to keep a handgun.  If you are going to get robbed or going to stop someone from doing something really bad a purse which you have to sift through to find a gun is bad.  Robbers are going to take your purse, your then defenseless.  Carry a gun on your actually person.

4- This sounds really crappy but **** happens and the death rate of accidental shootings from CCP holders are so low it doesn't even register on the list of things to worry about.  Now saying that to this family is not going to help I understand. 

Here is my point.  IF you are going to carry a gun, THINK THINGS THROUGH AND EDUCATE YOURSELF by magazine articles, books, internet, the NRA, local gun shops.  Educating yourself would have prevented this accident.

Should there be mandatory education for gun owners?  NO!  The Constitution is very clear.  The right of the people to bear arms is a right and no where in the constitution does it say you must go through classes in order to get a gun.  The forefathers knew something so basic they didn't think it needed to be so blunt but it needs to be stated.  TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

[farmerbob]

It's tough to say it so soon after the tragedy, but the woman (based on the information available) was negligent, plain and simple, and contributed directly to her own death.

This is a good example of why I frequently argue against off-body carry.  "Oh, I always have my pack/purse/whatever within arm's reach." Maybe you do but it is much more difficult to control who has access to something within arm's reach than it is something on your body 100% of the time.

^^^+1^^^^


I don't think anyone would say that a zipper is a good child safe barrier, no matter what holster.

The issue is, some manners of carry might be safer than others, if one chooses a form of off body carry, chances are they won't have a problem, but their odds of having an issue, I believe, are much higher than someone that carries on their person, throw someone that's around small children all day with all the distractions that come with that???

Much like if one who follows the 4 basic rules of gun safety has less chance of a ND than someone who uses their trigger guard like the finger hole on a cup of coffee.

[sjwsti]

2- I doubt the gun was on safety or had safety measures.  Handguns should be on safe unless your about ready to shoot.  All my handguns have a safety measure, a grip safety and a trigger safety.

All quality modern handguns will have some type of drop safety (some combo of internal/external trigger safety). External safeties (levers, buttons, grip safeties) are in no way mandatory. External safeties have advantages and real disadvantages. I see students fail to reliably operate external safeties in advanced training all the time. My personal experience and training have taught me that not having an external safety is the better choice for me. It is one less action (in your case two actions) I have to perform in order to fire my weapon.

Here is my point.  IF you are going to carry a gun, THINK THINGS THROUGH AND EDUCATE YOURSELF by magazine articles, books, internet, the NRA, local gun shops.  Educating yourself would have prevented this accident.

Agreed. But you left out attending an actual training course with a vetted Instructor. There are things that you will learn about your current skill level and gear that you wont learn surfing the internet or even reading books by skilled trainers. Want to know how we convince most woman that purse carry is probably not the best choice? We put them through a couple of reality based scenarios with role players. They experience the disadvantages of off body carry first hand (we could likely do the same thing for you and your opinion of external safeties). Unfortunately, in my experience,  most CCW holders dont believe that they need any training at all let alone some type of advanced training.

- Shawn

[Ronvandyn]

I don't know if training would have prevented this tragedy; if common sense was not enough for her to keep her gun away from her child I doubt training would have done the trick either. 

Mandatory training should not be required to exercise a Constitutional right.  Gun safety should be taught in public schools, and it would be, if the curriculum was not under the control of liberal bigots.   

If you look at the article and read the responses you see liberal bigots gloating about it.  That's incentive for all of us to be safe and to get the word out about how to be safe.   

100% spot on.

[SS_N_NE]

Should there be mandatory education for gun owners?  NO!  The Constitution is very clear.  The right of the people to bear arms is a right and no where in the constitution does it say you must go through classes in order to get a gun.  The forefathers knew something so basic they didn't think it needed to be so blunt but it needs to be stated.  TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

All grand talk...and I DO NOT want mandatory regulation, however we all are burdened by rules, requlations and law. Failure to understand the responsibility and take on the burden of self-education will result in mistakes (a very light word for what actually happens). Unfortunately many people feel they posess knowledge in excess of necessary. Those same people believe a RIGHT simply allows them to do as they want (the essence of the Right suits their want). Understanding that a Right carries responsibility is an often misunderstood concept.

[Lorimor]

All quality modern handguns will have some type of drop safety (some combo of internal/external trigger safety). External safeties (levers, buttons, grip safeties) are in no way mandatory. External safeties have advantages and real disadvantages. I see students fail to reliably operate external safeties in advanced training all the time. My personal experience and training have taught me that not having an external safety is the better choice for me. It is one less action (in your case two actions) I have to perform in order to fire my weapon.

Agreed. But you left out attending an actual training course with a vetted Instructor. There are things that you will learn about your current skill level and gear that you wont learn surfing the internet or even reading books by skilled trainers. Want to know how we convince most woman that purse carry is probably not the best choice? We put them through a couple of reality based scenarios with role players. They experience the disadvantages of off body carry first hand (we could likely do the same thing for you and your opinion of external safeties). Unfortunately, in my experience,  most CCW holders dont believe that they need any training at all let alone some type of advanced training.

- Shawn

Make no mistake, I am the world's biggest advocate of voluntary training.  It is my fondest wish that ALL permit holders seek additional training beyond the permit process.   

As for me, the more I learn, the less I know.

[sjwsti]

Make no mistake, I am the world's biggest advocate of voluntary training.  It is my fondest wish that ALL permit holders seek additional training beyond the permit process.   

As for me, the more I learn, the less I know.

+1

- Shawn

[ILoveCats]

Just to close the loop: media are reporting it was a "9mm Smith & Wesson M&P Shield".  No other specifics.  (Coulda been either a thumb-safety or no-thumb-safety model, right?)

citation: http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/kootenai-county/2014/12/30/deadly-shooting-kills-hayden-walmart-shopper/21058855/

[farmerbob]

Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

[RLMoeller]

Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

In a vehicle. Yes.

[jFader]

Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

Thanks Ashford!

[HuskerXDM]

Another issue in NE. with off body carry is and correct me if I'm wrong, if your not in direct control of your concealed firearm, everyone with you could be charged with carrying a concealed weapon.

Yes I like to call that the Omaha Gangbanger Rule

[Mali]

Yes I like to call that the Omaha Gangbanger Rule

Originally I was taking my gun out of the holster while driving and placing it in the console because it was easier to reach than in the holster while I was driving. however, once I found out that this would place my passengers at risk of the law I had to rethink this process.  Finally just made sure I had my gun reachable in the holster while driving.  Somehow I think this law is pretty fricking stupid since I have to minimize security in the name of "We MIGHT pull over a car full of people carrying illegally and we want to be able to charge them ALL with something."

That would be one of the things I would like changed.

[Lorimor]

I'm a little leery of off body carry in a vehicle for other reasons:

1)  More handling of the gun involved.  (Removing gun from the holster and placing it elsewhere, then holstering it back up etc.)
2)  Unless the gun is secured in the vehicle mechanically, it could become a projectile during an accident and God only knows where it will end up. 

Best to keep it in the holster IMHO.

[DR4NRA]

Murphy strikes again. LOL  Must need more training.

CINCINNATI –  Authorities say an off-duty police officer out to dinner with his wife in Cincinnati accidentally shot himself in the stomach inside a parking garage elevator.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/01/04/off-duty-ohio-cop-mistakenly-shoots-himself-in-elevator/