Bullet Brands for pistol shooting...

[JTH]

This post is just some commentary on reloading 9mm for shooting practice and competition.  If you don't care about pistols, and don't shoot 9mm, this may not be anything worth reading. 

I shoot a fairly hefty amount of 9mm each year (generally over 20,000 rounds) which means that I spend quite a bit on bullets.  In the past, I've used Montana Gold 124gr CMJs with excellent results, but lately I've had a number of people suggest trying Xtreme bullets and Blue Bullets. 

MG CMJ are jacketed, Xtreme are plated, and Blue Bullets are coated-lead bullets, and in that order, are increasingly cheaper.  In general (stereotypically) plated bullets are less accurate than jacketed, and coated-lead bullets both smoke a lot more and leave significant lead residue in barrels, so in the past I've pretty much stayed away from both.

However, at my volume of shooting, assuming I'm shooting approximately 20,000 rounds a year, this will cost me for bullets:

MG:  $2160 for 22500
Xtreme: $1710 for 22500
Blue Bullets: $1610 for 25200

...in other words, either one of the other two bullets would give me a significant savings over Montana Gold, IF they were as reliable and accurate.  (MG is about 9.6 cents per round, Xtreme about 7.6, and BB about 6.4.  That adds up quickly.)

So I decided to do some comparisons.  I already have quite a bit of data for Montana Gold, so I ordered some Xtreme and Blue Bullets and got some reloaded.

In general, for all three cases I'm loading 124gr RN (BB:  125 gr RN) to an OAL of 1.12.  Initially, I loaded all at 5.0gr of WSF powder.

Testing day 1:
I used the MG rounds as calibrations for my chrono---we know that under different lighting conditions chronos will read differently unless you have a light box (I don't) but over the last 4 years I've been consistently getting 134 powder factor out of my MG loads at all major matches, so I took the velocities as reported from the chrono and normalized them based on the MG load as 134 PF.

I also shot groups at 15 yards.  My group shooting actually kinda sucks, but I tend to be consistent in my suckage, so that I can at least get reasonable comparisons between loads.

Remember:  I've been using MG bullets with good results for several years.

Chrono results:
MG:  134 PF (duh), 2.5 standard deviation, min 130, max 137
Xtreme:  125.5 PF, 3.4 StDev, min 121.0, max 131.1
BB:  137.2 PF, 1.1 StDev, min 135.5, max 138.6

Accuracy results:
Comparison-wise, the BB groups were approximately 2/3 the size of the MG rounds, even when shooting fairly rapidly.  (Which was a surprise, since the higher power factor made for a noticeably different recoil impulse.)

The Xtreme bullets, on the other hand, were acting extremely strange---actually keyholing at 15 yards.  I was shooting at a bullseye target on an 8.5x11 piece of paper, and this is what I got:

...yes, that is actually completely off the paper.  And yes, there were shots on the paper and off to the other side of the paper also. 

And no my group shooting does not suck that much---for 15 yards, generally within a couple of inches.  Being off the bullseye is odd, much less off the paper.

So:  BB were both more accurate and more consistent than my standard MG loads (smaller groups, and half the standard deviation in velocity ranges).  Xtreme...far poorer in both.  (Which is very strange, as I have a number of friends who shoot Xtreme bullets with excellent results.)

Traded from the stock Glock barrel to a KKM barrel---MG groups sizes the same, Xtreme STILL keyholing all over the place, BB group sizes still 2/3 the size of MG rounds. MG and BB both hitting about 2 inches higher than out of the Glock barrel.  VERY ODD that the Xtreme bullets were acting this way.

Note: I chronoed with the BB rounds that passed the case gauge. However, during group shooting I used bullets that did NOT pass case gauge. (I case gauge all my 9mm.  If it passes, I'll shoot it in matches.  If it fails, I'll use it for practice only.)  No jams, malfunctions, or issues with BB. Several Xtreme did not cycle correctly even though I only used rounds that had passed the case gauge.

At the end, I loaded up a mag of the BB and shot them SHO and WHO with the weakest, most out-of-line, pathetic excuse for a grip that I could. No jams or malfunctions, no feeding issues at all.

Shot quite a few more of all types after, finishing with about 50 more BB. Checked the barrel---absolutely no leading residue at all, far as I can tell. Looked (and brushed out) no differently than when I shoot MG.  No noticeable smoke while shooting either.

More to follow...

[JTH]

Testing, Day 2:

So I went back out to the range today with a different version of the Blue Bullets loads (lowered the powder to 4.8 gr of WSF, don't really need 137-143 PF for minor).

1) It was gorgeous out. Seriously. Why didn't I bring more ammo so I could stay out longer? What was I thinking?

2) Shot my MG loads (which I know exactly what power factor they consistently have as a calibration) alternating with the new BB loads both across chrono and for group. Standard deviation on BB loads are still about 1/2 to 2/3 that of the MG loads. Group size for BB still about 2/3 that of MG loads.

3) Shot a set of MG loads for calibration across chrono and then shot a set of BB loads where I KNEW the bullet was 125+ gr. PF for all shots was between 134.4 and 136, so I can drop the powder even more (I like 133-134 PF---only a small amount of recoil and a comfortable cushion to make chrono at major matches). Still cycles the gun holding it as badly as possible SHO and WHO.

4) Found out that when it gets cold, if you have haven't done anything about the residue buildup on your slide rails with no oil since last August, it doesn't want to cycle properly. Ahem.

5) Shot BB and Xtreme at 15 yards. BB were rapid controlled pairs from low ready, Xtreme were single shots, mid-range speed, starting on target in one string. This is what happened:

That's just ridiculous.

6) There is only ONE thing that is an issue with the Blue Bullets, and that is weight variability. Given random samples of 10 bullets, weights will range from 123.3 to 126.9 grains. That's an issue. I'm planning on (bleh!) sitting there and separating my bullets into 125+ and <125 weight bins, and using the 125+ bin for major matches. I'm not really worried about making PF on any of them (my lowest chrono velocity with the lowest bullet weight I've measured will still make minor PF easily) but I do NOT like even remotely taking chances. So, I'll shoot the 125+ bin for majors.

I'll check these more over time, and I'm planning on dropping the charge probably another 0.1 of a grain (perhaps both 0.1 and 0.2, and comparing them) and then shooting some matches.  Also, need to test them at 25, 35, and 50 yards.

But so far....the Blue Bullets seem to be a solid choice for reloading.

Xtreme---don't know what is up with those.  I have a number of friends who use them with no problems.  And I've used them in the past with no issues, though those were 147gr bullets.  I'm going to have a couple of other people shoot the Xtreme rounds through their guns to see what happens.  It should be interesting, since I got keyholing at 15 yards from both a Glock barrel and a KKM barrel.

[shooter]

did you mike the O.D. of the Xtreme bullets? maybe they are a bit undersized,  only reason I know for key holing , with a good barrel

[JTH]

did you mike the O.D. of the Xtreme bullets? maybe they are a bit undersized,  only reason I know for key holing , with a good barrel

Supposed to be .355 for MG, Xtreme, and BB.  For and MG and BB, .355 is what I get out of a random sample of 10.  For Xtreme---not a single one was above .351, with most being .350.

That's a pretty big problem.  Good call.  I've got a couple of friends who shoot Xtreme checking their bullets to see if this is common, or I got a bad batch.  Thanks for the suggestion!

Someone else also asked about crimp, and if the plating was being scraped off---pulled a couple of bullet, and the answer is no for that one.

[shooter]

Supposed to be .355 for MG, Xtreme, and BB.  For and MG and BB, .355 is what I get out of a random sample of 10.  For Xtreme---not a single one was above .351, with most being .350.

That's a pretty big problem.  Good call.  I've got a couple of friends who shoot Xtreme checking their bullets to see if this is common, or I got a bad batch.  Thanks for the suggestion!

Someone else also asked about crimp, and if the plating was being scraped off---pulled a couple of bullet, and the answer is no for that one.

 

.355 is for  380. I size my 9mm at .356. 

[tstuart34]

I can measure some xtream also if you like.

Great write up. I will be looking into the BB.
Are you running stock glock parts?

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[JTH]

.355 is for  380. I size my 9mm at .356. 

Plenty of bullet-makers run 9mm at .355.  Like I said, Blue Bullets and Montana Gold both make their 9mm at .355, neither of which are problematic in my guns.  (And I've shot easily over 50K Montana Gold out of these guns in the last three years.)

http://montanagoldbullet.com/index.php/9mm-124gr-cmj-178.html
http://www.thebluebullets.com/product-p/1mfr-125-9.htm
http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-124-RN-p/xc9mm-124rn-b0500.htm

Hornady HAP are .355 OR .356, though the .356 are more likely used in .38 Super rounds in the 125gr version---lots of Open shooters in USPSA use those.  (The 115s are .355.)
http://www.hornady.com/store/HAP-Hornady-Action-Pistol


...but maybe that isn't the issue here after all.

I had assumed that the widest part of the bullet would be the part not squeezed into the case.  (I had measured loaded rounds, because I didn't have any loose bullets left.)  But...when I measured a couple of _pulled_ bullets, I get .354 for an O.D.  So I pulled several more, and they do all measure .355 or .354. That's what I get for assuming.

So maybe O.D. isn't the problem after all.

[JTH]

I can measure some xtream also if you like.
Great write up. I will be looking into the BB.
Are you running stock glock parts?

I appreciate the thought, but I've already had a number of friends take calipers to theirs, and they are all getting .354/.355.

Most of the Glock is stock, and the parts that aren't (a spring here and there, plus the sights) wouldn't make any difference to the bullet keyholing.  And I've checked the rounds out of a G17 and a G34, plus the G34 with a KKM barrel...

I've got a couple of people who will try them of out their guns after the next match, just to see if they see anything different.  Should be interesting...

[noylj]

I find Zero 121gn or 125gn 38 super JHPs to be about the best in my 9x19s. They run $283.50/3000 at Powder Valley. At Roze Distribution, they run $100.50/1000 for order of 2000 and up for the 121 gn and $109.25/1000 for orders of 200 and up for the 125 gn.   
For coated bullets, the most accurate I have found are Precision Bullets  (Texas). They are swaged, so they are very consistent in weight and dimensions (right with jacketed bullets in terms of consistency).
Next, if you get any leading in your barrel (not counting Glock polygonal rifling, as I have never used one), then:
if the leading starts at the beginning of the rifling, the bullet is too small or too hard or both (too hard is way common and most 9x19s are much happier with 0.357-0.358" lead bullets, coated or not)
or
if the leading runs along the leading edge of the rifling, then the bullet is too soft or velocity too high (I have never seen this in any of my 9x19s).
Keyholing is generally caused by the bullet being too small in diameter. This can be because the 0.355" bullets you ordered are really 0.354-0.3545" or because they got swaged down what seating due to not expanding the case enough (not talking about the case mouth flare, but actual case expansion) or crimping too much. With plated bullets, you can crimp right through the plating.
Pull some bullets and check their condition and compare diameter to non-seated bullets.

[JTH]

I find Zero 121gn or 125gn 38 super JHPs to be about the best in my 9x19s. They run $283.50/3000 at Powder Valley. At Roze Distribution, they run $100.50/1000 for order of 2000 and up for the 121 gn and $109.25/1000 for orders of 200 and up for the 125 gn.   

Lots of people really like Zeros.  However, since they are about the same price as Montana Gold (or more, for the 125gr Zeros) they aren't anything I'd change to---the Montana Golds work well for me.  I'm just trying to find something that works as well, but is cheaper.

For coated bullets, the most accurate I have found are Precision Bullets  (Texas). They are swaged, so they are very consistent in weight and dimensions (right with jacketed bullets in terms of consistency).

Like I said, testing so far has shown that the Blue Bullets are at worst as accurate as the Montana Gold, and in general, seem to be MORE accurate than the Montana Gold, at least in my hands.  I'll check them at 35 and 50 yards at a later date, but group sizes thus far have been about 2/3 the size of the MG bullets.  Blue Bullets are slightly cheaper than Precision Bullets.

Next, if you get any leading in your barrel (not counting Glock polygonal rifling, as I have never used one), then:
if the leading starts at the beginning of the rifling, the bullet is too small or too hard or both (too hard is way common and most 9x19s are much happier with 0.357-0.358" lead bullets, coated or not)
or
if the leading runs along the leading edge of the rifling, then the bullet is too soft or velocity too high (I have never seen this in any of my 9x19s).

As I said, haven't had any issues with leading at all.  Matter of fact, haven't seen any residue whatsoever that is in any way worse than what I'd get with jacketed rounds.  But I will bear that in mind.  Blue Bullets apparently has quite a number of people shooting their bullets both through Glock barrels, and also in Open guns with extremely high velocities with no leading issues.

Keyholing is generally caused by the bullet being too small in diameter. This can be because the 0.355" bullets you ordered are really 0.354-0.3545" or because they got swaged down what seating due to not expanding the case enough (not talking about the case mouth flare, but actual case expansion) or crimping too much. With plated bullets, you can crimp right through the plating.
Pull some bullets and check their condition and compare diameter to non-seated bullets.

As I said, I pulled bullets and there are no plating issues.  And the ones I pulled had diameters of .354 and .355.  I can't compare to non-seated bullets because I don't have any left.  However, friends have put calipers to their Xtremes and have given diameters of .354 and .355.

Regarding "not expanding the case enough"---what do you do to "expand the case"?  If that is an issue, what do you do to fix it?

[shooter]

even tho the bullets are plated or coated. they may be to soft. not letting them hold in the rifling. only other thing I can think of that would cause tumbling

[noylj]

The 125gn Zeros are 2 mils cheaper per bullet than Montana Gold.
Case expansion is done with the expander die. It opens up the ID of the case, hopefully to within 0.001-0.002" of the bullet diameter. It also flares the case mouth. Some people just use an "expander" that ONLY flares the case mouth. This can work fine with jacketed (and, I assume, heavy plated bullets), but can wreck lead or thin plated bullets.
In general, if you seat a bullet and then pull it, you will find that the case ID will now be about 0.001" smaller than the bullet OD. If the bullet is soft, compared to copper (i.e., lead or thin plating), the bullet will generally be swaged down.
Every one always talks about the "soft" bullet being stripped from the rifling, but commercial bullets are no where near that soft (even swaged bullets). I have had great success with 10-12 BHN in 9x19 and not had any leading--once I got the diameter up high enough.
From your statement:

>coated-lead bullets both smoke a lot more and leave significant lead residue in barrels

I thought you were actually writing about standard lead bullets and had had a leading issue also. Even if you were really writing about coated lead bullets, my suggestions still are applicable.
Sorry if I mis-interpreted.
I was just trying to help you find a cheaper alternative and felt that if you solved your lead bullet issue you might try them.
I have ordered as-cast (unsized) lead bullets (saving more money) and applied a tumble lube of White Lab 45/45/10 ( http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=31 ), and never noticed any smoke or leading. Just like my own cast bullets, I have found as-cast (unsized) is generally more accurate than sized bullets and,  unless the mold is really over-sized, work just fine in all my pistols.

[JTH]

The 125gn Zeros are 2 mils cheaper per bullet than Montana Gold.

True.  The savings of $6 per 3750 just wasn't enough for me to really think about it.  (And Zeros used to be more expensive than Montana Gold.  Wonder when that changed?)

Case expansion is done with the expander die. It opens up the ID of the case, hopefully to within 0.001-0.002" of the bullet diameter. It also flares the case mouth. Some people just use an "expander" that ONLY flares the case mouth. This can work fine with jacketed (and, I assume, heavy plated bullets), but can wreck lead or thin plated bullets.
In general, if you seat a bullet and then pull it, you will find that the case ID will now be about 0.001" smaller than the bullet OD. If the bullet is soft, compared to copper (i.e., lead or thin plating), the bullet will generally be swaged down.

Ah.  Thought you meant doing something else, which I didn't understand.

I use standard Dillon dies, which include the expander mandrel as normal.  Unless my expander die has changed significantly (read:  broken) it is still expanding the case while providing bell to the case mouth.  It literally is something I can't help but do on my reloading setup, if I want the case mouth to be belled at all.

Every one always talks about the "soft" bullet being stripped from the rifling, but commercial bullets are no where near that soft (even swaged bullets). I have had great success with 10-12 BHN in 9x19 and not had any leading--once I got the diameter up high enough.

It seems unlikely to me that this lot of bullets is softer than their other lots, but it is certainly possible. 

What's REALLY odd to me is that I have used this same reloading setup with some 115 gr Xtreme bullets for light calibration ammo purposes---and didn't have ANY problems like this.  And I've used this setup (obviously with a powder amount difference) to load their 147s, too, so I don't get it!

From your statement:

>coated-lead bullets both smoke a lot more and leave significant lead residue in barrels

I thought you were actually writing about standard lead bullets and had had a leading issue also. Even if you were really writing about coated lead bullets, my suggestions still are applicable.
Sorry if I mis-interpreted.

Ah.  I put that in there because stereotypically, lead bullets (even some coated lead bullets) do exactly that.  Later in my commentary, I talked about the fact that I had observed no smoke or leading in the barrel, however, and I had been looking for it.

I was just trying to help you find a cheaper alternative and felt that if you solved your lead bullet issue you might try them.
I have ordered as-cast (unsized) lead bullets (saving more money) and applied a tumble lube of White Lab 45/45/10 ( http://lsstuff.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=31 ), and never noticed any smoke or leading. Just like my own cast bullets, I have found as-cast (unsized) is generally more accurate than sized bullets and,  unless the mold is really over-sized, work just fine in all my pistols.

Interesting.  One of these days I'm going to try my hand at casting my own, simply because I think that is an interesting skill that may be useful at some time.  At the moment, though, I just don't have time!  So I cheat and buy bullets from other people. 

So far, the coated Blue Bullets are working remarkably well---measurably better than the Montana Gold, actually.  I'm still checking variations and need more tests at distance, but it really looks like the BB will be a significantly cheaper alternative to MG with no actual downside.

[PC13]

Thomas, I reload with Precision Delta bullets and do not see them mentioned here.  I've found them to be very consistent, accurate and priced very well.   Currently $88/1000 ($1980 for 22,500) shipped and they are jacketed bullets.   https://precisiondelta.com/index.php/products/bullet/9mm/bullets-9mm-124-fmj.html

I'm in no way affiliated, just find them to be good quality (like MG) for a good price.

[JTH]

Thomas, I reload with Precision Delta bullets and do not see them mentioned here.  I've found them to be very consistent, accurate and priced very well.   Currently $88/1000 ($1980 for 22,500) shipped and they are jacketed bullets.   https://precisiondelta.com/index.php/products/bullet/9mm/bullets-9mm-124-fmj.html

I've heard good things about Precision Delta--I know a couple of folks who like them.  At the moment, though, I'm really hoping the BBs work, given the cost of $1610 for 25,200 bullets. 

[tstuart34]

I've heard good things about Precision Delta--I know a couple of folks who like them.  At the moment, though, I'm really hoping the BBs work, given the cost of $1610 for 25,200 bullets. 

You must be using the 5% forum discount?

[JTH]

You must be using the 5% forum discount?

I'm using the Cody-Axon-is-a-BB-sponsored-shooter discount. 

(I could instead use the BEnos forum discount, yes.)

[tstuart34]

I'm using the Cody-Axon-is-a-BB-sponsored-shooter discount. 

(I could instead use the BEnos forum discount, yes.)

Ah ok. I thought about emailing them and see if they would add the nfoa!

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[PC13]

I've heard good things about Precision Delta--I know a couple of folks who like them.  At the moment, though, I'm really hoping the BBs work, given the cost of $1610 for 25,200 bullets. 

No worries, that's indeed a good price.  Just throwing out another option. 


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[abbafandr]

Interesting post for a 9mm reloader

I've reloaded 115 grain bullets  from Berrys, Blue Bullets, XTreme, and Gateway.

Berrys, NBK (nothing but keyholing).  Never did have any luck, didn't buy another box. 

Blue Bullets, very first test batch tumbled a bit.  Backed off the crimp, making clean holes out to 25 yds.

Xtreme, no problem, but BB are less expensive.

Gateway, no problem.

As noted, when you shoot and reload a lot, the expense is a factor.

Have noticed the 115 grain  BB usually weigh 117-118, not a big issue here.

Had a dozen or so Xtreme laying around and they measured .355

Also have noticed no difference in residue in my barrel from the BB.  Stock Glock barrels