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Author Topic: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting  (Read 2036 times)

Offline wcr

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CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« on: August 03, 2016, 07:58:29 AM »
Interesting article on Front Page of todays (Aug 3, 2016) Omaha World Herald about a shooting
and conviction by a CCW holder in 2015.  The CCW holder pleaded "self defense," but the jury found him  guilty of manslaughter and weapon use.  If you don't get the OWH I'll put a link
to the internet version (don't know how long it will stay up) below.  Would
be interesting to get some comments from CCW instructors/holders on how this went
down, what should/shouldn't have been done?  Might be some good lessons here.  Article
describes history, how the incident went down, police questions.  Anyone know who the
defense lawyer was?
 
Link:  http://www.omaha.com/news/crime/jury-rejects-claims-of-self-defense-finds-omaha-man-guilty/article_52e618f8-58fc-11e6-9e83-8b262095f37b.html

also can go to OWH main page link which has a link to the article.

Offline Chris Z

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2016, 08:02:33 AM »
Defense lawyer was Stu Dornan


What went wrong? The CCW holder after the shooting agreed to go talk to the Police without legal counsel, and made some confusing/conflicting statements which appear to have been used against him.

Offline Waltherfan

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2016, 10:26:45 AM »
From the evidence provided, I'd have come to the same verdict. Heng shouldn't have gone to Lane's place. The girl was free to leave but chose to stay.
Not Heng's problem.
Heng or the girl could have called the police but didn't. Not sure what the police could have done as no crime had been committed yet.
Most damning evidence (if true, these days you never know) was no powder burns on Lane, meaning Heng's story didn't hold up.

Offline Les

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2016, 11:19:06 AM »
Yup, should've never went there, recipe for disaster, sad.  Call LEO

Offline depserv

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2016, 01:08:55 PM »
Based on what I read in the article, it looks to me like talking to the police without a lawyer present was one in a series of bad decisions this guy made.  A man's instinct tells him to defend his woman (in this case a former girlfriend), but the law tells us to let the police do it (unless that's not an option).  This guy should have followed the law instead of his instinct.

But it looks like he had a right to be where he was even if being there might not have been a good idea.  And it is possible that if he hadn't been there the woman might have gotten beat up or killed.  We'll never know. 

We'll also never know if the shooter could have defended himself without shooting the guy, or if the threat really was as serious as he claimed.  Maybe he saw an opportunity to get rid of the competition and get his old girlfriend back.  Pure speculation I know, but people themselves don't even always know why they do what they do.       
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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2016, 01:44:20 PM »
Let's See...................

>Last time we looked it up, Nebraska wuz still a Duty-to-Retreat state.   If you can safely do so, but then don't, well.........there goes your Right-to-Self-Defense claim in court.

>The Fear-of-Death/Great-Bodily-Harm element was highly questionable in case of the Shooter.

>The Lady just may be some kinda spazz who wanted to see the boys to get into a tussle over her.   Maybe not.   But could be.   At any rate, if she was so scared (FOD/GBH), then she should have called 911 instead of calling the Shooter.   Certainly was plenty of time to do so.   

>Heck, the Shooter also had plenty of time to call 911.   But didn't.  And Shooter had no duty to protect the Lady.

>Victim was attempting to enter his own place of residence, according to OWH news account.   Nothing wrong there.   Initial confrontation was made by Shooter, if the OWH story can be believed.

Well, this one's another example of how not to behave while carrying concealed.   Got so many of these bad examples now to use in CC classes.   Don't have time to go over them all.


FWIW,


sfg
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Offline Kendahl

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2016, 05:30:47 PM »
This was a case of good intentions but bad execution. Heng's goal was to protect his former girl friend from domestic abuse. The problem was that even the most recent incident was several hours in the past. At the time of the fatal encounter, Lane was simply returning to his apartment. Because the girl friend wasn't in imminent danger, Heng had no right to interfere with him. If anything, Lane was defending himself against Heng. Had Heng overheard Lane beating the girl friend, he would have been justified in kicking in the door and shooting Lane if that's what it took.

Whenever there is a significant possibility that a confrontation could turn violent, it's best to get the police involved as early as possible. Since we are all good guys here, we have nothing that we wouldn't want them to witness. If the bad guy won't behave himself, let him fight the police rather than us. It's their job and, more importantly, they have better legal cover than we do.

I follow a self defense blog written by an Ohio police officer named Greg Ellifritz. I e-mailed him the following question: What would be the response if a woman called 911 and told them, "I just broke up with my boy friend and want to move my stuff out of his place. He has a bad temper and I'm afraid of what he will do if he finds me there. Can you send an officer to watch over me?" Ellifritz's reply was that this is a frequent request that they are more than willing to oblige.

Over the past year, three domestic abuse situations in Omaha have gone bad when friends or relatives of the victim tried to help. An abusive husband was shot to death when he attacked the wife's friend. Two brothers were shot to death when their sister's abuser discovered them helping her move out. The abuser committed suicide after a standoff. The Heng/Lane incident is the third. Each one could have been avoided by getting the police involved at the beginning. They might still have ended with the abuser dead but the helpful friends and relatives would have been spared their grief.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2016, 05:32:49 PM by Kendahl »

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2016, 07:49:38 PM »
Time for a review of basic facts concerning contact with the police:


And a followup PDF by Regent Law Professor James Duane gives viewers startling reasons why they should always exercise their 5th Amendment rights when questioned by government officials. Download his article on the topic at:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1998119

Offline hilowe

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2016, 09:03:55 PM »
Two brothers were shot to death when their sister's abuser discovered them helping her move out. The abuser committed suicide after a standoff.

Unfortunately, parents of one of the kids on my sons baseball team knew these guys. I don't remember how. This is what kind of woke my wife up to the fact that there are really bad and evil people everywhere.

Time for a review of basic facts concerning contact with the police:


If I remember right, there's a second part to this video, which was an immediate follow on by a local police officer.  That's worth watching as well.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2016, 07:41:44 AM »
The "second part", by a police detective who discusses his techniques to get suspects to confess, begins at the 60% mark.

Offline Kendahl

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2016, 09:10:43 AM »
Never talk to the police is an oversimplification. It's valid for the guilty. The less evidence police and prosecutors have, the harder it is for them to make a case. The reverse is true for an innocent person who has had to defend himself. Evidence will demonstrate your innocence but only if it isn't lost. You should point out physical evidence and witnesses to the responding officers. If possible, be the first to call 911. Tell the operator that you need police and ambulance at your location and that you had to fight off an unprovoked attack. Don't say anything more than that. If you are interrogated by detectives, tell them that you will make a statement after conferring with your lawyer. Then, shut up and don't let yourself be tricked into talking. All of this is covered in legal training like Chris Zeeb's class Legal Aspects of Using Lethal Force, Gary Young's class Legal Survival and Andrew Branca's book The Law of Self Defense. To find a lawyer who knows how to defend innocent people (which is quite different from defending the guilty), join the Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network.

Offline hilowe

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2016, 10:49:13 AM »
The "second part", by a police detective who discusses his techniques to get suspects to confess, begins at the 60% mark.

I didn't watch the video you linked.  Must have found a longer version than the one I saw previously.

Offline David Hineline

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2016, 02:38:56 AM »
I remember from earlier articles, I missed the above outcome and always wondered.  He did his firearms training with Tactical 88.

When a situation like that runs on all day, you don't take matters into your own hand, let officer friendly deal with it, over and over all day long if need be.

Often the girl does not want her hump buddy arrested after the drunk wears off so they don't call police or they recant.  When batpoo crazy girl calls you and says I am scared help me later if I get scared again, then just call the police in behalf of batpoo crazy girl.  Anyone know if this was felony or misdemeanor manslaughter?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:43:35 AM by David Hineline »
Machinegun owners blow thier load with one pull of the trigger

Offline Chris Z

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2016, 05:57:17 AM »
Felony manslaughter and use of a weapon to  commit a felony

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2016, 07:33:37 AM »
All of this is covered in legal training like Chris Zeeb's class Legal Aspects of Using Lethal Force, Gary Young's class Legal Survival and Andrew Branca's book The Law of Self Defense.

An interesting presentation on the 5th Amendment begins here and proceeds through the next two parts, each part being several pages.  It's written in cartoon style by a 30 year lawyer who is also an artist.   It shows how self-criminalization and how sustaining your 5th amendment right is filled with barriers, pot holes and land mines.  Even lawyers trip up, as the video above points out.

Offline Chris Z

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2016, 08:58:22 AM »
He was convicted of:

Manslaughter - Class IIA Felony - punishable by up to 20 years in prison. No minimum penalty.

Use of a weapon to commit a felony (firearm) - Class II Felony - minimum 1 year, maximum 20 year penalty

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2016, 12:57:17 PM »
Cutting to the chase on the 5th Amendment,
http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=2630

Remember, the Miranda rule helps the state more than you!

You cannot make a single "blanket" invocation.  If you fail to invoke it for each and every incriminating question, it's waived for all subsequent questions.  If you don't invoke it at all and remain silent not only do you lose the right but your silence will be taken as an admission of guilt.   Taking the 5th is strewn with booby traps, land mines, trip wires, bottomless pits and who knows what else.   That's why, even before you are charged with anything you take the 5th and demand a lawyer.   A good lawyer.  Make sure his/her collars and cuffs arn't frayed and there are no holes in the soles of their shoes.   If it is a court-appointed attorney ... good luck, and I hope your prayer line to God is in working order.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 01:00:38 PM by GreyGeek »

Offline depserv

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2016, 01:39:56 PM »
Cutting to the chase on the 5th Amendment,
http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=2630

If it is a court-appointed attorney ... good luck, and I hope your prayer line to God is in working order.

Are you suggesting that a public pretender might not do a good job?  Seems like I've heard that before, from people with sad experience in the matter.   

One thing about this case is that any time a previously law-abiding permit-holder gets convicted of a crime of this type it will be used as ammunition by America's internal enemy in their war on freedom, even if only as a statistic.  Permit-holders have an exceptionally good record, but it doesn't take many things like this to make it look bad.  For that reason and to keep your own freedom, I suggest that all who carry avoid making the bad decisions this guy made.  Avoiding a fight does not make you a coward it makes you smart.  If you want to be a hero do it by supporting a wife and kids, and if you want to be a tough guy, enter a tough guy contest.  But don't try to do what we hire the police to do (unless there is no reasonable alternative). 
The liberal cult seeks destruction of the American Republic like water seeks low ground.

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2016, 12:07:48 AM »
To give you an idea of how complicated using the 5th Amendment is consider this flow chart:
http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=2897

Offline Kilroy

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Re: CCW Holder Convicted of Manslaughter in 2015 Shooting
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2016, 01:17:29 AM »
I have to agree with the jury on this one. While seemingly well-intentioned, the shooter created the bad situation he ended up needing a gun to safely get out of.
A CCW is not an escape hatch for a situation that might end badly. If you wouldn't go somewhere or wouldn't do something without a gun, then you most definitely shouldn't do it with one.