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Author Topic: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)  (Read 2856 times)

Offline SemperFiGuy

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CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« on: November 15, 2016, 12:28:55 PM »
Interesting Story Here:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/15/passerby-shoots-kills-motorist-assaulting-deputy-after-traffic-stop.html

Basically, an LEO is being attacked and overwhelmed by a Perp.

CCW Citizen comes by, sees and shoots.   Kills Perp.

This kind of Third Party situation frequently raises questions in my concealed carry classes.

============================

Question for your consideration here is:   If you were the CCW passerby, would you get involved in this kind of situation??

Wouldja?

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Offline JAK

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2016, 02:39:55 PM »
I would have to be positive that the individual being attacked was a LEO and the individual attacking was not.  Also would attempt to stop attack without use of leathal force. 

John K

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Offline Lmbass14

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2016, 03:52:07 PM »
The story I read was that the policeman was in uniform, this was after a high speed chase, he was telling the CCW hold to shoot him. The CCW guy was saying, stop hitting him or I'll shoot.

Guess you had to be there.  I was taught, if it's just a whoopn' you don't draw.
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Offline Kendahl

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2016, 04:55:29 PM »
The big difficulty in deciding whether to help someone is determining who is the bad guy. In this case,  one of the participants was a uniformed police officer who was losing the fight. In addition, the officer requested assistance in the form of deadly force. That's about as clear cut as one could imagine.
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Offline RobertH

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2016, 05:28:29 PM »
i don't know.  i would for sure have to know more of the backstory and be there the whole time.  you never know what you *think* you saw while the adrenaline is pumping.  maybe the cop is the bad guy and just wearing a really good costume or stolen uniform.  just a tough situation.

you just gotta be prepared for the consequences of every shot you take.
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Offline JTH

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2016, 10:45:55 AM »
Quote from: Lmbass14 on November 15, 2016, 03:52:07 PM
I was taught, if it's just a whoopn' you don't draw.

It is just not that cut-and-dried.

It is certainly true that just because someone is beating someone else, it doesn't mean you CAN automatically respond with lethal force.  But similarly speaking, if someone is beating someone else, it doesn't mean you CAN'T respond with lethal force.

The totality of the situation makes a difference.  Is there a significant disparity of force?  Demonstrated lethal intent?  Lethal ability?  Are the requirements of AOJP met?

In the case of someone beating on a uniformed police officer---are they beating his head into concrete?  Are they attempting to take his weapons?  Is he screaming "I'm gonna kill you pig!" or something similar? 

As people have said, sounds like about as clear-cut a case as possible though, for a third-party intervention:  1) uniformed officer, 2) direct assault on such, 3) direct request for aid from uniformed officer, 4) specified type of aid requested.

Given the situation, even if the police officer had been WRONG about whether or not the requested level of aid was legal, the bystander would be able to argue (successfully, I'll bet) that if they can't believe a police officer in proper use of force for defense purposes, who can they trust?

:)
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Offline ILoveCats

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2016, 03:00:11 PM »
Cop is shouting "Shoot him!" repeatedly while being attacked, and the perp could be reasonably assumed to be within a couple seconds of taking cop's weapon?  Shoot him. Clear cut. No questions. Non-issue.

Although in Nebraska you'd technically have to be politely informing the officer that you're a CHP holder and offering to show him your permit while simultaneously shooting the perp. Precision Response Training gonna have to come up with some sort of drill to teach that.
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Offline JTH

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2016, 03:43:40 PM »
Quote from: feralcatkillr on November 16, 2016, 03:00:11 PM
Precision Response Training gonna have to come up with some sort of drill to teach that.

I'll see what I can do.  :)
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Offline hilowe

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2016, 04:06:25 PM »
This one seems a little more cut and dried to me. Based on the article I read, the guy pulled the cop out of his car, had him on the ground, and was continuing to beat the cop while on the ground (making me imagine that the guy was holding the cop down like an MMA fighter).

Quote
Shanta Holditch told WZVN that the suspect pulled the deputy out of his car and "just kept beating him and beating him ... throwing him to the ground and punching him in all different directions."

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/11/15/passerby-shoots-kills-motorist-assaulting-deputy-after-traffic-stop.html

In general, would really depend on the circumstances, and what I knew of the circumstances that led up to it.
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Offline GreyGeek

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2016, 08:17:43 PM »
Just don't hit the LEO!
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Offline DenmanShooter

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2016, 07:30:30 PM »
Would you get involved?  I don't think anyone can answer that with any degree of certainty.  Of course under these specific circumstances most people would say yes, I think.  But you never know until you are confronted by the situation what you might do. Unless you are former or current LEO.

also: The LEO was yelling for help apparently.

also: How many times have seen someone driving a sheriff's patrol car and decked out in uniform that WASN'T a Sheriff or Deputy? 



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Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2016, 10:33:13 PM »
Quote from: jthhapkido on November 16, 2016, 03:43:40 PM
I'll see what I can do.  :)

Maybe temple-index your CHP card in your support hand?  :)
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Offline depserv

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2016, 10:29:27 AM »
OK so what is you see some bad guy robbing an old woman, and he can't get her wedding ring off so he pulls out side cutters to cut her finger off?  Cutting her finger off will not kill her.  So if, because of the specifics of the situation, the only way to stop the bad guy from cutting her finger off is to shoot him, would it be legal for an armed citizen to shoot the bad guy? 
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Offline JTH

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2016, 11:09:10 AM »
Quote from: depserv on November 22, 2016, 10:29:27 AM
OK so what is you see some bad guy robbing an old woman, and he can't get her wedding ring off so he pulls out side cutters to cut her finger off?  Cutting her finger off will not kill her.  So if, because of the specifics of the situation, the only way to stop the bad guy from cutting her finger off is to shoot him, would it be legal for an armed citizen to shoot the bad guy? 

"Seriously bodily harm" includes permanent maiming and mutilation.  Also, given the situation, it would be reasonable to assume further aggravated assault on the criminal's part, with a potential death (from shock or other things) on the part of the victim.

Short form:  If the situation meets all other aspects of AOJP, shooting to stop the attack would be legal.
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Offline HuskerXDM

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Re: CCW Dilemma: Saving Someone Else (Like an LEO, for Example)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2016, 05:32:24 PM »
Quote from: depserv on November 22, 2016, 10:29:27 AM
OK so what is you see some bad guy robbing an old woman, and he can't get her wedding ring off so he pulls out side cutters to cut her finger off?  Cutting her finger off will not kill her.  So if, because of the specifics of the situation, the only way to stop the bad guy from cutting her finger off is to shoot him, would it be legal for an armed citizen to shoot the bad guy? 

This is from Nebraska statute 28-109: Serious bodily injury shall mean bodily injury which involves a substantial risk of death, or which involves substantial risk of serious permanent disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of any part or organ of the body;

Seems to me that cutting off someone's finger involves permanent disfigurement or impairment of the function of the hand.  I'm not a lawyer...
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