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Author Topic: Copper Plating  (Read 32990 times)

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #200 on: March 01, 2013, 10:51:15 PM »
Oven / bbq paints seem to be up to 600F continuous... not quite good enoguh

The ceramic automotive stuff looks to be 1300-2000F.... but might need a primer, then color, then top coat.  Dunno, will have to look into it a bit more for instructions.  Seems like it's $9 a rattle can (for each layer).

If I had some spare molds I'd prolly jump on the chance later heh.

edit: there is a prior post i did just a moment ago on the tail end of the prev page... might explain a few things in this post heh
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 10:53:36 PM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline rudy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #201 on: March 01, 2013, 10:54:10 PM »
Hmm, interesting.  I've never used any of the ceramic paint stuff from automotive stores, just header wrap and then the silicone spray on top of it.  I know there are more exotic solutions, like ceramic coating.  I'm not sure how those processes work.  I wonder if they're similar to cerakote?  Spray it on, then bake it?  But like you say, it'll be difficult to get a uniform thickness.

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #202 on: March 01, 2013, 10:58:54 PM »
When I get a bit of spare cash for a spare set of molds and the paints, I'd be willing to get it a shot.  Will need a few cans of normal spray paint to practice on stuff with first for a while heh.  Will also undoubtedly require masking off every part of the mold but the actual lead cavity ....

Anyhoo... fun fun.

Tonight I hope to chop up some wood and the sliding drawer brackets and HOPEFULLY get the clothespin rig built.  We shall see :).
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #203 on: March 02, 2013, 06:07:45 AM »
Drawer slides cut.

Bunch of wood cut.

Slides attached to bits of wood.

Tomorrow:

Attaching all of this to the base (prolly via bolts rather than screws for easy-ish dis-assembly).

Measuring fun for building the actual clothespin rod rigging/frame etc will be after that... and constructing it.  Will be a fair amount of measuring for all of that :/ ...

Then figuring out vertical travel with stops and all that and.... then.... yayayayaya time to get back to actually plating heh.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline Jutty

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #204 on: March 04, 2013, 09:30:15 PM »
Unfy, if it would help, I have most of a can of http://www.vhtpaint.com/products/flameproof/ this stuff, you could have (flat black). I used it on my exhaust near the exit, no prep or primer, or clear, and it has held up immaculently, even with my tire spitting crap at it. And I didn't see if you tried one, but I could probably round up a train controller if you wanted to use one.

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #205 on: March 04, 2013, 09:41:18 PM »
There are some liquid masking products that might make it easier to mask off the rest of the mold.

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #206 on: March 04, 2013, 11:39:26 PM »
VHT Flame proof is indeed something I was looking at.

Menards has some of the rustoleum 2000f resistant stuff for $5 a rattle can afaik.

That'll all come down later when I get a spare mold heh.

The liquid masking stuff is prolly something i'd definitely look at.



The top built / clothespin rigging stuff is mostly built.  Well, all the wood work is done.  I was off by a lil bit on a few holes so need to grind down the hanger rods a lil bit so they fit... drill their mounting holes (10 of them, takes a bit per piece of metal, and prolly will require two holes given 1/4" final size).

Need to cut up and crimp ~14 feet of wire for it all too.

Almost done!



edit:

Will be later in the week, back is killing me.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2013, 11:50:43 PM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #207 on: March 07, 2013, 03:59:58 AM »
Semi-completed.

Might have to move the clothespin hanger things a bit, which will be fine / easy.

Might have to rethink the clothespins things themselves... getting a consistent clamp is kinda rough.

Anyhoo... pictures!





Cups in place, clamps for copper anodes clipped to cup (no copper yet, gotta take a few min to cut it up eventually).

Clothespins hanging on hanger framework. The rainbow wire stuff is for equidistant stuff.





Demonstrating lifting the clothespin hanging stuff.  Drawer slides on right can see the lifting whatever.

I've not come up with a clean way of raising / lowering it all yet.  In due time.



Clothespins - I like them, I do.  Possibly a bit partial since I spent a fair amount of time making them heh.

They don't make for a consistent grab though. While with fiddling they can all be made to be fairly centered, it's just not "rock solid".




edit (2013-03-07) to avoid post bloat:

Didn't see a whole lot at hardware store that looks to be of help to the clothespin <> bar clamping problem.

The |_| shaped aluminum rods in the welding section were too long in the 'legs' for the most part...

Basically, I'll try drilling some holes in the bars and using bolts & wing nuts to attach stuff to see how quickly that goes.  Actually, I've got a spare that I drilled some holes in already that I'll toy with.  Defeats half the purpose of the clothespins though.

Actually...

There's also something I can't think of what it's called.

It's V shaped.  At the vertex/corner of the V is a hole.  The legs of the V are held open by a spring.  When you squeeze the legs together, the hole at the vertex gets bigger.

It's kind of like a quick release nut thing ?

Hrm.

I'll have to look at other hardware stores as well.  I'm pretty sure there's something that can be done with a |_| or even just a shallow L bracket.

edit again:

'quick release nut thing' is actually a drywall anchor thing.  i recall the cheap ones not having the screw plate in the picture of this item:

http://menards.com/main/storage-organization/closet-organization/shelving-hardware-brackets/hollow-wall-anchors-white/p-1656567-c-12645.htm

edit yet again:

copper flashing all cut up, got 24 strips for 24 cells total atm.  i might have been able to squeeze out one more for the 10 foot by 6 inch roll if this was the original plan.

looking at clothespins and stuff, i just dunno.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 03:32:27 AM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #208 on: March 08, 2013, 10:41:01 PM »
I think I worked out a solution the clothespin.  Prolly over engineering, but whatever.

Gonna take off the top clothespin (that would clamp to the copper tubing originally).

Instead....

Well, currently using 1/8 inch thick by about 3/4 inch wide galvanized chain link strapping as the hanger bar.  It's hung vertically (like | , not like -- ).

Anyhoo, picked up some aluminum edging that's L shaped.  It's about half an inch long on the short leg and 3/4 inch long on the longer leg.

The thought, as it stands, is to cut the aluminum edging to about 1.5 inches in length... maybe 1.75.  Position the edging so that it's like a 7 instead of like an L.  This way the lip of the edging rests on top of the hanging bar.  Attach the clothespin to the edging on the 'outside' ... like:


| ||---
| ||
| ||
| |
|@|
| |
[ ]


Then.... in the power bus bar, have to sets of screws attached about an inch apart for each 'clothespin hanger area' ...


 __________________________________________________
|                                                 
|   @         @              @         @           
|__________________________________________________



The long face of the L/7 shaped aluminum brackets would be something like:


 _________________
|       ###       |
|  ___  ###  ___  |
|  | |  ###  | |  |
|  | |  ###  | |  |
|__| |__###__| |__|


Where # = the clothespin.  Basically, two grooves cut along the bottom of the longer lip.

This way, the 7 bracket slides over the power bar and attacked via the two screws with the slots. keeping it parallel to the power bar is done via the lip part of the 7 bracket.

Some wingnuts for each of the two screws for each each of the rigging bar (and matching grooves in 7 bracket).  The wingnuts would never need to be fully removed, just loosened a little.

Now.... does it need to be two screws / groove lines ? Prolly not. I'll undoubtedly reduce it to one to save on labor and that I don't think it's really required.

Does it actually need to be wing nutted in place ? i think so - the clothespin is providing the electrical contact so... yeah.  Now... if I used a bit of sheet metal (left over copper or something) to act as a leaf contact between the 7 bracket and the power bar... that would prolly make the wingnut unecessary. ... but then you run the risk of the leaf causing the thing to not rest properly on the bar or something.

How to go about doing this ?

I do have a dremel, but I'm thinking just drill holes at the stopping point in the 7 bracket, then use a mini hacksaw with a mini miter cut box to two lines down to the drill hole.  Thankfully aluminum is soft.

Now, having learned what I have about myself concerning being completely and utterly unable to drill a hole accurately... this will all have to wait a week or so ... need to pick up a decent drill press.

edit: ps: ph33r mah ascii artz skillz



edit:

Actually, we've got some easily accessible drill presses here at work that look like they should do the trick for this one time use thing.

I will note, why on earth does the boss let folks beat the baby juice out of our tools ?  I looked around the wood & metal working area of the shop and got sooooo depressed. Several drill presses that are chewed up / bad belts / etc.... spot welders that haven't been cared for... sliding power miter saws allowed to rust on the slide rails... a metal lathe that just breaks my heart.  If I had a place to put it and the ability to carry it out the door I would *so* steal that thing and love it long time.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2013, 11:00:49 PM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline Hank

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #209 on: March 09, 2013, 02:20:45 PM »
If you ever need some, I have some different types of copper.. like plate, bar, round stock
pretty cool `speriment ya got goin`there unfy...although I must admit them berrys bullets are looking better all the time ;D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #210 on: March 15, 2013, 11:47:08 PM »
Hank: well, my current setup is prolly the least friendly way of doing it... the alternate tumbler method mentioned by someone earlier is a possibility that I'd be willing to look at as well... *ASSUMING* the cell approach works.

Concerning copper source - I do appreciate the offer, and might end up taking you up on it :).



I've got all the lil aluminum L brackets cut and marked for drilling.  Doing a single retaining "hole" instead of 2 just for simplicity.  I'll have to mark up the galvanized fence tension bars / power bars / rigging / whatever for appropriate drilling as well.  Plan on coming in to work on Saturday and drilling all the holes all at once.



Looking at:

http://www.tedpella.com/company_html/PlasticsChemResistance.htm

(or http://www.calpaclab.com/Chemical-Compatibility-Chart-s/789.htm )

HCL and HDPE don't react... well, especially at the hardware store grade I'll be looking into using (30-35%).

Milk jugs are HDPE.  I figure some milk jugs, some glass / pyrex additional containment safety and I should be good to go with pickling in HCL.  I'll look around at other plastic containers and stuff at hardware store and what not to see if I can come up with something better than a milk jug.

Actually, plastic coffee cans are more stout and HDPE.  As an assumption: food container plastic that is colored is quite possibly HDPE.  Looking at the recycling mark tells ya what ya need to know :).  Ya'd want 2 / HDPE.  Larger scale: many 5 gallon buckets, smaller: the thick plastic coffee cans seem cool.

Need some white lab coat like stuff, some decent gloves, and I'll begin to construct the pickling tanks and stuff.  Well.... *AFTER* i show 20-25 bullets plating successfully with just manual stuff.

As an aside, sulfuric acid (typically 30-40% in automotive batteries) is okay with HDPE as well.



There's also questions about cast -> water squelching -> plating at nearly all the same time and if it'd do for reducing oxidation concerns etc.  Or if even the water squelch is necessary.  I know that if left hooked up to the current and dropped into water, a lead bullet will immediately oxidize (even with no current flowing through the bullet itself).

Basically what I'll need to do is attempt some cast -> plate immediate stuff to see if the de-oxidation step is even necessary.



edit:

Well, the way i'm doing it now is theoretically 'least friendly'.  All of the setup I've done for everything is on the more time consuming / complicated side... but will make the actual plating stuff much quicker to work with compared the very initial plan of bullets-hanging-from-a-copper-wire.

Cells are removable, copper plates are easily removable for cleaning, hooking up power to the copper plates is pretty quick (just some clamps), power stuff is all self contained and easy to hook up.  The clothespins make dealing with individual bullets easy (i have some thoughts on that as well).  All in all, it's come leaps and bounds compared to what the thread started out as.... and I think the current plans on attaching the clothespins to the rigging/power source will work out real nice as well.

There is near ZERO reason why I can't attempt plating this weekend.... an will be endeavoring to do so.

A power source is the current unknown for this setup, will take experimentation to find out more.  Not overly concerned about it at the moment.

Concerning the clothespins....

There are the 'rubber dip' things for tool handles and heat shrink stuffs for wires etc.  I do wonder if some copper strips / tubing cut a certain way would do well at replacing the plastic fork handles and using the dips/shrink for covering most of the copper stuff except contact points would be a nice option.  This way less surface area gets plated, an easier to work with set of 'pincers' for the bullet holders, etc.  The question that arises is how this other stuff holds up to being in an electrolyte and other such fun questions.  Or, similarly, what about some of the neat paints ?

edit again: plain ole polyurethane may work for a coating as well (i dunno ?).
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 12:13:50 AM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline bkoenig

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #211 on: March 16, 2013, 08:23:40 AM »
Speaking of copper sources, I melt down range scrap for casting and end up with leftover jackets.  I wonder if that would be useful?  It's pretty dirty, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem.


Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #212 on: March 16, 2013, 07:28:30 PM »
Speaking of copper sources, I melt down range scrap for casting and end up with leftover jackets.  I wonder if that would be useful?  It's pretty dirty, so I'm not sure if that would be a problem.

There was the post earlier (in this thread I think) of folks that are making a copper / tin alloy in their lead.  Depending on how contaminated it is and if truly makes a difference, this might be a decent thought for that ?

Melt a bunch of tin, drop the jackets in, make the copper / tin alloy ?

This is all hoping that the tin has a higher affinity to the copper than the lead, thus stripping the copper attoms away for 'an atomic suspension' ?

Almost makes me wish I jumped on SFG's old melting pot when I had the chance hehehehe
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #213 on: March 16, 2013, 07:47:50 PM »
Copper can be purified by electroplating with a controlled voltage and current.

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #214 on: March 16, 2013, 11:06:18 PM »
Copper can be purified by electroplating with a controlled voltage and current.

*cough*

Aint that the subject of this thread ? :P

You'd prolly have to lay it in basket / wire mesh and attempt to pull the copper off the lead.  Dunno what success you'd have.

I think I tossed the picture of copper plate shell crud bullets I posted earlier.  I'll look around and see if I still have them.  If I do, I can try to see if I can pull the copper off of the slag/dreft/whatever-its-called.



In other news, stopped by hardware store, returned stuff I've ended up not using and then bought a bunch more stuff.  Really should just get a hardware store credit card heh.

Used drill press here at work (taking a small break atm in office) to put 25 holes into the hanger bracket things.  OMG I love drill presses, even the kinda beat up one here at work (there's a lil bit of play in the spindle / quill when it meets resistance).  Gonna have to pick me up a decent press for home <3.

Hit kind of a 'durr' moment after drilling out one of the brackets... but already have a solution to address the problem.  Basically, machine screws don't sit inside the bracket (durrrr).  so the bracket won't be flush against the hanging rod.  Not a problem, already have a solution worked out (ie: a nut as a spacer).

Also picked up a small tap/die set with matching drill bits included.  I've got one at home but it just lacks.  Anyhoo, will be tapping one of the holes in the aluminum hanging bracket for attaching the clothespins with.  Just because I can :P.

Also picked up one of these:

http://www.menards.com/main/electrical/electrical-cords/surge-protectors-and-power-strips/black-desktop-power-center-4-outlet-surge/p-1872665-c-6412.htm

Something like that mounted on bench either on it's side with included clamp or in a purpose cut hole seems mighty dandy.  Sure it's for office desks, but on a hobby / reloading bench it seems appropriate as well :).  And for $10, sure why not.



As far as acids: lots of HDPE / recycle-2 marked stuff abounds.  I'll be taking a folgers plastic coffee can as the tank and then cutting up a milk jug (and putting holes in it) as the 'holds bullets and easier to move them between acid and water' thing.  Well, that's the immediate plan as a 'medium sized' pickling bath thing.  The smaller coffee cans are also purposefully neat looking and will just need to figure out a smaller bottle to hold the bullets.  This would be the 'small sized' pickling bath thing.



Re-checked some of the high temperature paint stuff.  $10 gets you primer and paint for rustoleum.  I believe that's enamel based.  The VHT stuff mentioned earlier (by someone else and myself) is ceramic based IIRC.... and prolly be closer to $20-$30 for both primer and paint.  This will just have to be 'try it and see' on a spare mold set.

For amusement, the curing steps on the high temp paint include several 'bake at X degrees for 30min, cool for 30min' steps at increasing temperatures.  Somehow I don't think this would necessarily be wise in the house.  Will have to figure that out later (propane grill ? ... doubt a propane grill hits 600F though for the final step).



hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline GreyGeek

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #215 on: March 17, 2013, 09:17:04 AM »
Aint that the subject of this thread ?

mmm...  maybe I misread.  I thought the subject of this thread was copper plating lead bullets, not purifying copper.   I just wanted to point out that electroplating is the  standard method for separating Copper from  its contaminate metals.

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #216 on: March 19, 2013, 07:02:32 AM »
Brackets all done.

While attaching clothespins to them... yeah... have to come up with an alternative to the steel wood staples... they just corrode to nothingness and the insane brittleness aint gonna help.

Cut up some copper sheet scraps to replace plastic and staples on the clothespins (no pics at the moment, sorry)... and there's a chance.

Manufacture would have to be:

Strip of copper, 1/2 inch wide, 6 inches long.


 _____________________
|          |          |
| o       (|)       o |
|__________|__________|



The small o's are the small holes drilled for attaching to clothespins, the ( ) is a 13/32 sized hole (or similar... .40625 of an inch).  The | down the middle is the cut line after all the holes are drilled.

Then bend the ( or ) sections over 90deg so as to make the grabbers.

I semi-constructed this already for a prototype, it seems like it might work. Not wholly convinced though due to the copper strips not having quite the strength to make a very strong 'bite' on the bullet.

Might be able to bend the copper sheets a bit to form a ridge down the middle or outer edges for increased strength, i honestly dunno.  any ridges for strength make the 90 degree bend for grabbing portion a bit impossible ?



Now.... just to point something out....

a) if polyurethane doesn't get dissolved or affected by the copper sulfate

b) if the polyurethane does a good job at insulating stuff for reduced plating surface area

.... what about some other metal thing replacing the plastic, with copper tips ?

further questions arise from this though - is simple metal/metal contact outside of an electrolyte still going to have corrosion problems ? not really afaik. it's not a huge amount of current.



« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 07:44:24 AM by unfy »
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #217 on: March 25, 2013, 12:51:26 AM »
Wow.

Placed backorder @ midway for another 40s&w bullet mold (for the paint experiment).

Looking at ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LEE-6-CAVITY-MOLD-40-CAL-10-MM-TL401-175-SWC-WITH-HANDLES-/140938089281?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20d0909341

6 gang, close to $200.  I can't help but laugh and feel sorry for the poor bastards.



Haven't done much with plating at home. 

Wandered around hardware stores for a bit trying to think of a way to handle the grabby bits of the clothespins.  Nothing really struck me.

The copper bars in electrical (8 foot long, 1/2 inch in diameter?) appear to be the most economical price on 'raw' copper from a hardware store... was a lot of copper for $10-$15.  Would need a method to flatten it into sheets.  Know how such things are done commercially, but doing it at home... euhhhhh yeah sure whatever heh.

I've got a few experiments to try stand alone, we shall see.

Also while ordering stuff from midway, added some pvc gloves for working with the acids etc.



hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #218 on: March 25, 2013, 06:09:46 AM »
Did a test run with stuff how it is... was going to do 10 cells...

well... i really should have tested the cells first, had a couple leaks heh.... so only 8 cells.

Hanger thingies - i like. very easy to work with.

25min ... and.... quality wasn't the greatest.  I'm gonna blame that on power issues primarily. Coverage patterns seem to suggest that at least.

Next attempt will be at the 13v/2.5amp unfettered output.

I'll prolly wait until figuring out more how I wanna do the grabby bits.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline unfy

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Re: Copper Plating
« Reply #219 on: March 25, 2013, 06:12:32 AM »
Oh yeah, concerning tin / copper suspension in lead for cast bullets.... did see some huge tin roof washer things, price was so/so and worth an experiment possibly.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D