Copper Plating

[unfy]

my hosting provider is being ddos'd or something... so images are attached

basket.jpg = the pvc construct with a couple of baskets tied together.

thin.jpg = 75min of freshly cast & brushed & acetoned bullets.  battery powered.  rotating the basket every 2-5 min.  about 40 bullets.


So....

The support jig is just 1/2 inch pvc pipe.  none of it's been glued yet since it's still prototype.  The basket holding areas are 3/4 inch cross sections with bushings for the framing and no bushings for the spinny basket portion.  the handle is just a half inch pvc with a 3/4" bushing that freely rotates and then a 1/2 inch end cap.

The basket is just a couple dollar store baskets with holes cut for the pvc and then tied together with wire.  the turning mechanism has / pipe has holes drilled into it to allow the cathode wire through.

the basket has some thick 14awg (i believe?) wire, and some of the hanger wire spread throughout.  i've noted some issues with the thin hanger wire looking black here or there, etc.  I will probably take the basket apart and use a single 14awg wire to run around the basket a few times to offer better contact or something.

the coat looks kinda like crap on some of them.  something to note, however -- it doesn't flake off while in the distilled water or drying it.  so... it is applying it some what decently.

the coat itself is actually very thin as well.  looking at the bullets through the basket was deceptive.  using the cross hatch grippy area on a xacto knife takes the coat right off / cuts right through it.  on the earlier bullets, it just makes shiny copper areas.


tomorrow, i'll work on improving the basket wiring.  i'll then rough up another 40-50 bullets and try again for 3-4 hours.

[NE Bull]

Whew! There you are, For a day or so I'd thought you gave up or even worse

[unfy]

If anyone was stuck behind a goldish ford ranger sunday evening that was going way slow on Kennedy or 2 (near neb city) - that would have been me.  couldn't take it anymore and decided to go visit son in sidney ia


late start, but 40 bullets are in the hopefully-improved basket in the dip right now.  gonna be a long night

edit: 2 hours to go.... they're still looking splotchy .... sigh.

edit: 20 min to go to the 4 hour mark... the coat is starting to look much better.  i may stay up for an extra hour to see what 5 hours looks like.

[unfy]

5 hours... and... well.

the coat is better, but still far from great.

it's also quite inconsistent from bullet to bullet.

some pass the xacto notched handle test, others dont.

as a reference, berry's might as well had been cast copper

i passed one through the sizing die and didn't flake surprisingly.

bed time, i'll do pics and stuff tomorrow

[unfy]

That's the bullets after 5 hours in the basket.  Rotated every 2-5minutes, battery powered (switched out batteries half way through).

The coat is better... but still not great.



Left to right:

1) Hit with a wire brush very gently and it didn't flake or anything.  Note *gently*.  The single bullets at the start I could be as violent as i wanted...

2) Passed through sizing die

3) Example of xacto knife hatch grip fail

4) Just for fun - a well plated bullet that's been hit with a wire brush.  Looks a good bit like a berry's heh.


I might take a break for a week, or I might try hitting both sets of bullets with some of the super fine steel wool I got and try plating some more. 

Last three ideas:

1) 2 coats (a strike, buff,  then the actual one)

2) aquarium tank heater.... my solution has got to be around 50-60F... which is too cold.

3) acid etching (still don't wanna! heh)

Stuff kinda not interested in trying anymore atm:

1) uhhh i guess only one thing -- the cast -> distilledwater -> acetone -> plating


quick edit : the copper wire of the basket appears to coat nicely.  i wonder if the solution is prefering to plate it rather than the bullets ?  would the basket be better constructed with a 'star of copper wire' in the middle, placing the bullets between it and the anode ?

meh, tonight i'll definitely be roughing up the ~80 or so bullets i have with the fine steel wool and attempting to plate them again.

i don't doubt that the aquarium heater is going to be a required purchase, and that a strike followed by the 'real coat' might be required.

if there was just an easier way to rough up the bullets.  something like chucking them in a drill or even the foster brass trimmer seen in some of my pictures .

[unfy]

both recent batches of basket bullets have been put through steel wool & acetone.

starting the plating process again.  prolly gonna be another 4-5 hours yet again (damn these late nights, shoulda thought of that before starting it).

i'm doing both sets of bullets because i wonder if 40 wasn't quite enough to guaruntee that every bullet in the basket had a current path to the cathode.... ie: if there was just enough space around a bullet it could be in the basket but not touching wire directly or other lead(s) that were touching the wire.

i realize i have two different starting coat thicknesses... it was quite clear when hitting them with the steel wool.  we'll see how it affects turnout in a bit.  the fact that i don't think ANY of the bullets had a solid copper coat after the wool (and brush to get into lube groove) ... makes me really wonder about coat quality.

[unfy]

got tired.  only did 2.5 hours.

more failure.

it's still kind of flakey, kind of splotchy (better though), and generally fails the xacto cross hatch grip test.

... so...... i dunno.  will ponder tomorrow.

[unfy]

The variac is a type 221B manufactured by Staco Energy rated for 120 volts input and 2.5 amp output. I found it  on Ebay for about $15. The rectifier is a radio shack part #261-1185. It's rated at 50v and the biggest they had at the time. Most of what I do is less than 50v but I have run it higher with no negative issues

Out of curiousity ... if ya run it at 1-5v, what kind of amperage can you measure out of it ?

[unfy]

Dug around work (we do video games / electrical engineering stuff)... and was finally able to find our DC voltage regulators (lt1084's).  Grabbed data sheets, some application notes.... did some math ... grabbed some capacitors and resistors and stuff.... should have a variable DC power supply of up to 7A now.

Outside of a PC power supply, I don't believe I have any DC power source that can produce 7A, but ... whatever.  It's a start and didn't cost me anything

[unfy]

First attempt at voltage regulator failed.  It's 1 three pin doohkicky, 2 capacitors, and 2 resistors... but I've still somehow managed to **** it up.  Ugh.

Tonight I'll be trying again.

Avoiding spending money at the moment, so aquarium heater will have to wait (as well as just outright buying a DC power supply).

I imagine once I get it working, I'll prolly re-rough up the bullets, throw'em in the basket, and see how they plate overnight or while at work (or both if necessary).  Sure, I won't be spinning the basket, but... whatever, I just wanna see a thick plate .  And I know where the bullets are in contact with each other won't plate ... hopefully the air agitation will help alleviate general problems.

Unless of course I come up with a way to rotate the basket automagically.... (unlikely... don't think I've got a low RPM motor handy).

[kozball]

UNFY,

My son has a cheap HO train set that has a power controller/transformer that has connections for both AC and DC. 2 pairs of screw terminals. Says output 15VDC and 19VAC. The DC side is for the track, so it is variable. I guess that the ac side is static. Brand is RailPower 1300.   FYI

Koz

[unfy]

koz:

holy!

actually.... that's... a fairly decent idea.  wow.  they look to be 0-14v dc, and some appear to be up to 8 volt amps.

that's... uhhh scary.

wow!!!!

i don't think i've got a spare train controller handy (i do have some really old ones from my papa ... but ... i refuse to tinker with that).... but.... still, wow.  that actually might fit the bill nicely .

you wouldn't happen to know anything about electronics and keep multimeters handy so you could experiment would you ?

[kozball]

PM sent

[unfy]

gonna attempt dc regulator thingie a few more times and then decide what's next.

as far as a cheap motor to spin a basket contraption....

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_213488_-1

looks fairly decent.  it's 120v AC which is a plus, can move 3.5kg, and has a low rpm rate (6, which with belts can be made lower if desired).

here regulator, you and me are about to have some words...


edit: oh, above motor is only $13.

[unfy]

lower resistor values keeping approximately same ratio -- and booyah, 1.5v!

now to see how much power it moves.

[unfy]

from the 13v power supply, the regulator gets a little warm with just a min or two (even with heatsink).

but, i was at 1.5v around 0.13 amp with just a single bullet... and it did start plating.

i'll dig around for a high powered 5v power supply and see what i come up with etc.

so far so good.


i really do like the the model train controller idea, really i do!!! inexpensive, easy to get ahold of, and might work just fine!



I'm flooding the recent posts list, so i'll edit instead....

added a pot (thing with a knob) to be able to easily adjust output voltage.... works just fine.

i dunno if having more amps on the power source side would help or not... i tried increasing the surface area of what i was plating and current draw went up... so... whatever.  i hate analog electronic stuff

the power source circuit i have is cheap to make (assuming you already have a dc power source like a wall wart that can push an amp or more), but will steal my friend's train controller anyway to see if current draw goes up and if it can indeed be used as a power source to begin with.  i have no doubt that it will indeed work.

its late.  depending on what goes on tomorrow i'll either do a long test of my power supply, or grab the train controller, or just be content with progress thus far


edit again: koz has confirmed his train transformer / controller will work.

doing some research, looks like it needs to be a DCC style compatible.

a quote from a transformer thingie description:

Appropriate for N, HO, and on 30 scale trains. DCC compatible. Includes speed control knob. Includes direction control switch.

[unfy]

made a bunch of lead ingots tonight from wheel weights. 

did grab a small electronics prototype board to move my variable dc voltage supply off of the bread board and to something more perm.

while i was at radio shack, priced everything for the regulator stuff.... so can get that posted later as well.

[unfy]

^^^^

The DC <> DC power voltage regulator.  input goes into one of the blue blocks, output comes out the other.  whee!  i'll draw up a schematic later as well as a radio shack shopping list (cheap).


have aquarium heater

have  fresh lead

will prolly try plating tomorrow.

[unfy]

no plating attempts tonight.

cold weather + warm kitties = hibernation time hehe.  slept in way too late.


Since I just placed an order for the low RPM motor i'll be using to turn the basket ..... this is the shopping list for the voltage regulator:

LM317T
* This is the voltage regulator itself
** the LM317 can handle 1.2 - 37v, up to 1.5 amp
** higher amp regulators can be had and are generally drop in replacements
* $1.59
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_898800_-1
** this is a specific part thing rather than 'pulled from left overs', and is generally suggested
* $0.35
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_23579_-1
** this is the 'swept off the floor' version

10uf Tant caps
* cleans up input and output voltage
* $0.49 each x 2 = $0.98 total
* https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_94060_-1
** ya might be able to get away with some 100uf electrolytics.. but ... tants are suggested.

100 ohm resistor
* half of the voltage divider logic
* You're technically supposed to use 1% or better, but i'm having no probs with generic 5%'s
** Sadly, buying a single resistor is about impossible. So, $3 gets you 100 of them
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_690620_-1
* For the thin metal film 1%'s, they're on sale right now.  Ya can't get 100 ohm, but ya can do 150ohm (which is fine since we'll be using a pot to adjust voltage)
** $1.00 gets 100 of them
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2080497_-1

Potentionmeter
* this is the thing that will let you control the output voltage
* You'll want a 1k pot probably.  At 1k, you get 1.25 volts out of the regular (assuming 100ohm other resistor above).  For smaller numbers, your voltage will increase (so a pot that does 0-1k is ideal).
* $1.19
* https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_29050_-1
** this is largely a choice for you to make on your own concerning ease of working with, cosmetics, etc. you want to stick with between 1k and 5k pots tho
** and if you wanna be super fine controlled about voltage output, a trimmer would be great.. but.. .ya don't need that.

To-220 heatsink
* the regulator will get warm to hot, you'll have to cool it (passively should be fine)
* Two options, i dunno how much cooling it'll actually require.
* $0.29
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1
** smallerish heatsink.
* $0.99
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_70658_-1
** larger heat sink... dunno if it's necessary

You'll also want some tiny screws and nuts to attack the heatsink to the regulator.  Dunno if any kind of heatsink grease / compound is necessary... probably isn't really requied

Prototyping board
* you'll want somethign to attach all of this to...
* jameco, oddly, has a fairly crappy selection.  i chose their bread-board like thing, which seems quite cool although it lacks mounting holes
** $4.95
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2125042_-1
* radioshack has the board i used in my photo above...
* something more traditional from jameco (with power/ground busses)
** $6.95
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_105102_-1

You'll need some kind of wire to connect all this together.  There's the enamel coated wire (ya hit with soldering iron and it melts the enamel away.... or... in my case with the photo thing - i just used some spare copper hangers

Terminal Blocks
* gotta have some way to connect other things to your board, no ?
* take a look through their terminal block list.  It's all about finding something you want
** home -> inter connects -> terminal blocks -> terminal blocks
* They also have what i'm using:
** $0.29 * 2 = $0.58
** https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_2094506_-1


Totals for the above:

* $1.59 regulator
* $0.98 caps
* $3.00 resistors (100 of them, sigh)
* $1.19 pot
* $0.99 big heatsink (just for worst case)
* $6.95 prototyping board
* $0.58 terminal blocks
-------------------------------------
$15.28 total cost


Wire: i had already, whatever.

I had a lot of these parts already since it's my day job as well....  annnnnnddd... you still have to provide an already DC power source (preferably 5v or higher).   And doesn't include a 'project enclosure' either.  I can prolly build these things fairly cheap in comparison to $15, too.

Just about all of this can be had from radio shack as well.... prices coming soon.

[unfy]

Radio shack:

10uf Tant capacitors: $1.89 each (ouch!)
* can be found locally sometimes, might have to hit a few different stores
* online similar product: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12477093

100ohm resistors: $1.19 for a pack of 5-10
* online similar: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062315

lm317t regulator: $2.99
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062601

5k ohm pot: $3.19
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102789

to-220 heatsink: $1.69
* online http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102856

project board: $2.19 (the one i used)
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102845

terminal blocks: $2.39
* online: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102861


Totals:

* $3.78 - caps
* $1.19 - resistors
* $2.99 - regulator
* $3.19 - pot
* $1.69 - heatsink
* $2.19 - project board
* $2.39 - terminal blocks
-----------------------------------

$17.42 -- and you shouldn't need to to pay shipping

Again - you'll need to supply wire and screw / nut for mounting heatsink to regulator.


edit: most of this should be able to be found locally, btw.  might have to hit up a few different stores though.