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Author Topic: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?  (Read 1711 times)

Offline AAllen

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Offline SemperFiGuy

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 03:30:31 PM »
HERE'S THE NEBRASKA CODE ON STOP AND SEARCH FOR DANGEROUS WEAPON


An LEO can Getcha! if you are about to commit a crime.   How does he know??
He knows!!

Section 29-829
Stop and search of person for dangerous weapon; when authorized; peace officer, defined.


A peace officer may stop any person in a public place whom he reasonably suspects of committing, who has committed, or who is about to commit a crime and may demand of him his name, address and an explanation of his actions.   When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects he is in danger of life or limb, he may search such person for a dangerous weapon.

If the peace officer finds such a weapon or any other thing the possession of which may constitute a crime, he may take and keep it until the completion of questioning, at which time he shall either return it, if lawfully possessed, or arrest such person.   For purposes of this section, peace officer shall include credentialed conservation officers of the Game and Parks Commission.

Source:

    Laws 1965, c. 132, § 1, p. 471

Annotations:

    Totality of circumstances provided sufficient justification for investigatory stop where defendant fit "profile" of burglary suspect and engaged in specific activities which aroused the suspicions of the police. State v. Van Ackeren, 242 Neb. 479, 495 N.W.2d 630 (1993).

    For a detention pursuant to this section to be lawful and justifiable, the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion. State v. Bridge, 234 Neb. 781, 452 N.W.2d 542 (1990).

    A brief stop of a suspicious individual in order to determine his identity or to maintain the status quo momentarily while obtaining more information may be most reasonable in light of the facts known to the officer at the time. State v. DeJesus, 216 Neb. 907, 347 N.W.2d 111 (1984).

    An investigative stop under this provision is justified by objective manifestation that the person is, has been, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity. To determine if the cause is sufficient to authorize a stop, the totality of the circumstances must be considered. State v. Ebberson, 209 Neb. 41, 305 N.W.2d 904 (1981).

    Informal detention for investigation may be lawful although probable cause for formal arrest may not exist. State v. Von Suggs, 196 Neb. 757, 246 N.W.2d 206 (1976).

    A peace officer may stop any person, whom he suspects, in a public place, and demand his name, address, and an explanation of his actions. State v. Brewer, 190 Neb. 667, 212 N.W.2d 90 (1973).

    Peace officer may stop person in public place whom he reasonably suspects of committing, having committed, or is about to commit a crime and may demand his name, address, and an explanation of his actions. State v. McCune, 189 Neb. 165, 201 N.W.2d 852 (1972).

    Detention and search without a warrant based on statements of informer and observations of the officers was proper. State v. Goings, 184 Neb. 81, 165 N.W.2d 366 (1969).

    Peace officer may stop a person for questioning whom he reasonably suspects of having committed or is about to commit a crime. State v. Carpenter, 181 Neb. 639, 150 N.W.2d 129 (1967).

    Informal detention is permissible in spite of lack of probable cause. State v. Hoffman, 181 Neb. 356, 148 N.W.2d 321 (1967).2. Search

    Where four officers were required to subdue defendant who ran from investigatory stop which was justified by reasonable articulable suspicion, it was also reasonable to pat defendant down for a weapon. State v. Van Ackeren, 242 Neb. 479, 495 N.W.2d 630 (1993).

    During an investigatory stop, officers may search a suspect's vehicle in order to secure their safety or the safety of another if they have reasonable belief, based on articulable facts, that they or other persons are in danger. State v. Gross, 225 Neb. 798, 408 N.W.2d 297 (1987).

    The search of the passenger compartment of an automobile, limited to those areas in which a weapon may be placed or hidden, is permissible if the police officer possesses a reasonable belief, based on specific and articulable facts, which reasonably warrants the officer to believe the suspect may gain immediate control of weapons. State v. Pierce and Wells, 215 Neb. 512, 340 N.W.2d 122 (1983).

    Investigative stop and search of auto by police held unconstitutional where officer had no reasonable suspicion the occupants were committing, had committed, or were about to commit a crime. State v. Colgrove, 198 Neb. 319, 253 N.W.2d 20 (1977).3. Miscellaneous

    The officers' actions in parking their car behind the appellant's vehicle, approaching the appellant and a companion with guns holstered and identifying themselves as officers, and then inquiring whether either possessed a controlled substance or a large amount of cash were not tantamount to an arrest and did not require probable cause, but instead required a lesser standard, namely, that the officers possess a particularized and objective basis for suspecting the person stopped of criminal activity. State v. Longa, 211 Neb. 356, 318 N.W.2d 733 (1982).

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Offline rluening

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2011, 04:55:06 PM »
No, it doesn't. It may be argued that they have the power to search you based on possession of a concealed weapon, but they don't have any rights beyond those that I have.

People have rights. Governments and officials of governments have powers and duties.

/rl

Offline Gunscribe

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2011, 05:39:46 PM »
What the article does not mention is that the quoted statute also states that one can legally carry a concealed firearm without a permit on property owned or leased and in a private means of conveance. If the Store manger knew they were carrying and had not told them they could not then tacit approval under the law would have made it legal for them to carry as employees on employee property.

The fact that one is a convicted felon entirely negates the above.

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Offline unfy

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 05:48:49 PM »
before hand --- SFG -- you're a machine :D



We'll.... skip... some of the 'initial stages' of the stop/search for a moment.

To start, in NE, we are required to surrender the weapon to a peace officer if asked to.  Plain and simple.  So surrendering the weapon is not debatable.

After declaring concealed carry, producing permit, and surrendering the weapon - additional searches is probably going to be wholly conditional based.  By doing all of these things, it might be possible to argue that you've demonstrated that you're just a law abiding joe schmoe.  However, as noted by SFG, the law tends to side with the police for this kind of thing... so... you can prolly expect a further search if the officer is being thorough or still uneasy about things.  And, with SFG's notes above - he is probably well within his legal right to do so.



For the fun bits... the whole initial stop / etc.

A 911 call was placed about two armed men in a convenience store that were displaying their weapons.  So.... the officer was going into an unknown situation where he knew that there were possibly two armed men.... and that the situation had made someone uneasy.  If that person was just a gun-o-phobe is... whatever.

The officer arrived and secured the weapon immediately and then started asking questions.

-----

So a 911 call alerted police to suspicious activity with a weapon, an officer arrived and secured the firearm from someone who was obviously in possession of one.  Given the 911 phone call.... I don't particularly see this as overtly evil.

------

Now, if I'm at the local QT, and an officer sees that I've got a concealed weapon on me and makes official contact based on simply seeing the weapon (no prior alerts or similar).... then.... it's.... muddy (in my view at least).

But.... assuming he does... and you declare yourself, produce permit, and optionally surrender the weapon... i would find it difficult to see an officer continuing to search you.  The concern was about the weapon, you've shown yourself honest and within your rights... attempting to continue the search just seems to be really dubious on their part.

hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline AAllen

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 06:27:35 PM »
What the article does not mention is that the quoted statute also states that one can legally carry a concealed firearm without a permit on property owned or leased and in a private means of conveance. If the Store manger knew they were carrying and had not told them they could not then tacit approval under the law would have made it legal for them to carry as employees on employee property.

The fact that one is a convicted felon entirely negates the above.



Thanks for the clarification Scribe. 

I posted this because we have allot of discussions about how laws should be changed and what we would like the laws to do or not due.  Setting aside the "felon" discussion, we have had fun discussions on that in the past and those I'm certain will continue, I have a simple question.  Why do we need to inform or submit to searches because we are participating in a protected Natural Right? 

What can we do to fix this issue?  Should we address it?

People who know me realize I'm a from my cold dead hands type of guy, that understands things need to be done a little bit at a time, and I have learned to play the politics quickly.  But I'm trying to figure out how one would address the multiple issues here.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2011, 06:32:08 PM by AAllen »

Offline unfy

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 07:10:53 PM »
Why do we need to inform or submit to searches because we are participating in a protected Natural Right? 

Well, in a friendly stance towards LEO - if I was a LEO, I wouldn't mind knowing about weapons in the vicinity.  It's a dangerous profession after all. 

Also - the 'inform' helps diffuse a dangerous situation before it occurs.  I'd personally do it even if the law didn't require it... respect for the LEO as well as not eating pavement with my face if the weapon is discovered later as a surprise.

Searches - beyond the 'inform' bit is muddy if there's no cause (other than having the weapon on your person).



Is concealed carry a RIGHT ?

That's a fun question.

IMHO - the 2nd Amendment is quite clear about the right to bear arms.  There's no limitations there-in about fully automatic weapons and such... so.... according to the 2nd Amendment as it is, I don't see why I can't own a fully automatic howlitzer.  A tactical nuke might be a stretch... but...  in general - I see any limitations on what I'm allowed to own as infringing the 2nd Amendment (magazine size, bore diameter, fully automatic, type of ammo, etc).

BUT concealed carry might be quite a different thing.  Owning and bearing arms is clear.  Concealed carry might not necessary be 'bearing'. 

Open carry of a loaded firearm ? Sure... I can see that.  How do you open carry a pistol on a winter day ? Unless it's a 10" revolver in a sling across your back....  ;)

I'm not wholly convinced that concealed carry is protected by the 2nd Amendment.
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline omaharj

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 07:31:53 PM »
I'm not wholly convinced that concealed carry is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

The part about bearing arms comes to mind. The ability to use a firearm is dependent on having one on you. Keeping them in display case would satisfy the keep part,and make the anti's happy. An unloaded gun,with the ammunition kept separate, locked away from you,doesn't qualify as bearing arms to me. My opinion---RJ

Offline unfy

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 07:55:13 PM »
The part about bearing arms comes to mind. The ability to use a firearm is dependent on having one on you. Keeping them in display case would satisfy the keep part,and make the anti's happy. An unloaded gun,with the ammunition kept separate, locked away from you,doesn't qualify as bearing arms to me. My opinion---RJ

You can carry a firearm on your person in a fully loaded open carry situation just fine in regard to 'bearing'.

To bear the arm, you have to have it on you in a ready-to-go state.  I agree there.  Similarly, I find any law forbidding open carry (or limitations about if the weapon is loaded or not) to be a 2nd Amendment violation.

Concealed... well... I can be convinced either way probably :D

Ya could argue that since I don't find limitations on the firearms to be proper... that there are also no notions of limitations on how things are kept or born.  Thus concealed is a protected right.

Ya can keep and bear arms without concealment.  Does this make concealment a privilege now rather than a right ?  Note, be careful when delineating 'right' vs 'privilege'. 

Being concealed - we now get into fun word play concerning any expectation of the right to privacy and stuff.  That's a huge can of worms I don't wanna get into heh.
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline bullit

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 09:04:45 PM »
My personal experience in Nebraska......one fine afternoon, I was pulled over in Lincoln by a LCSO deputy and was ordered to exit my vehicle.  My offense.....I was driving faster than he.  When I discussed with him that his speed did not dicate speed limit, but said signage was the speed limit we moved on to the topic I mentioned to him immediately after him stopping me i.e. I have a CHP and I am carrying.  Having just left the gym, my "mohaska" was wrapped up within my street clothes on the passenger seat along with my wallet.  Upon informing the deputy that I wanted him to feel safe we had an issue with me obtaining my wallet and him not worrying.  He replied he was not going to let me  near my firearm.  He then attempted to enter my vehicle.  I politely said I did not want him to do such as he was halfway in the driver's seat.  I informed him that I was not comfortable with him entering my vehicle with out p.c. or search warrant.  In short, he would need to have a warrant to proceed further.  He replied that he did have p.c. as I'd mentioned to him that I had a firearm in the vehicle.  I then replied back that yes I did, but it was legally possesed and legally carried.  There was not justifiable reason for him stopping me in the first place and certainly not p.c. presented to him at that point in time.  He became reluctant to pursue further but still insisted on seeing my license and CHP.  So we agreed to go around to the passenger side and I allowed him to remove the wallet from the pants pocket.  He confirmed my license, CHP and thanked me for informing him.  No citation was issued and we parted "friends".  Odd but interesting event....

Offline Gunscribe

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 09:43:25 PM »
Way back in time there were no laws in any state that forbid open or concealed carry. Concealed carry laws came about in many states as the prevailing thought was that only brigands and trouble makers carried "hidden guns".

With "hidden guns" these miscreants could spring upon an unknowing citizen. People of that time believed that a solid citizen carried a firearm openly, only those with illicet intent "hid" thier guns.

The "Arms" in keep and bear arms is generally been understood to mean arms that can be carried on the person. Although there are "nukes" that will fit in a briefcase I would not readily concede that it is a defensive "arm".

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Offline DanClrk51

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2011, 11:31:29 AM »
Well as for the New Mexico case I could not agree more with this statement which sums it all up to me:

"Obviously, if the officers had asked Rodriguez if he had a license before the stop, and he had said no, the officers would have had both reasonable suspicion and even probable cause to make the arrest. But I think they have to ask first and get evidence of the crime before the stop, not stop first and then get evidence to justify it. And the fact that this occurred in a high-crime neighborhood doesn’t make a difference: The suspect was an employee of a convenience store who was working in the store at the time, so it’s not like the nature of the neighborhood suggests he was more likely to be involved in crime himself."

We have a right to carry arms and I do believe the 2nd Amendment includes both ways (open or concealed). We shouldn't be stopped, frisked, searched, and disarmed just because we did what......engage in 100% legal behavior guaranteed by the bill of rights? Just because the potential exists that a gun carried by someone could possibly endanger officer safety shouldn't give them probable cause. If that is the case then you could make the same argument with anything else (cars, pens, etc.) and they would be stopping every car.

Offline Hardwood83

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2011, 03:09:08 PM »
Well, in a friendly stance towards LEO - if I was a LEO, I wouldn't mind knowing about weapons in the vicinity.  It's a dangerous profession after all. 

Also - the 'inform' helps diffuse a dangerous situation before it occurs.  I'd personally do it even if the law didn't require it... respect for the LEO as well as not eating pavement with my face if the weapon is discovered later as a surprise.

Searches - beyond the 'inform' bit is muddy if there's no cause (other than having the weapon on your person).



Is concealed carry a RIGHT ?

That's a fun question.

IMHO - the 2nd Amendment is quite clear about the right to bear arms.  There's no limitations there-in about fully automatic weapons and such... so.... according to the 2nd Amendment as it is, I don't see why I can't own a fully automatic howlitzer.  A tactical nuke might be a stretch... but...  in general - I see any limitations on what I'm allowed to own as infringing the 2nd Amendment (magazine size, bore diameter, fully automatic, type of ammo, etc).

BUT concealed carry might be quite a different thing.  Owning and bearing arms is clear.  Concealed carry might not necessary be 'bearing'. 

Open carry of a loaded firearm ? Sure... I can see that.  How do you open carry a pistol on a winter day ? Unless it's a 10" revolver in a sling across your back....  ;)

I'm not wholly convinced that concealed carry is protected by the 2nd Amendment.

(Rabbit trail alert)
unfy, I believe if you continue to think through this, you'll become wholly convinced. For instance would the same limitations apply to the 'keep' aspect? In other words, could you only keep your arms in very specific locations (your home, but not your car or place of business)? No, I think it's quite clear that the intent is that owning and carrying guns (however you choose) is not to be limited by government.

I will grant that the Founder's were not likely thinking of concealed carry for personal defense, but all legitimate uses (especially resisting tyrants) are covered.  As has been previously mentioned- rights are reserved to the people, duties and limitations on the government.
"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." Sigmund Freud

Offline unfy

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2011, 04:33:45 PM »
... ponders ...

>:D
hoppe's #9 is not the end all be all woman catching pheramone people make it out to be ... cause i smell of it 2 or 3 times a week but remain single  >:D

Offline FarmerRick

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2011, 09:36:48 AM »
I don't see anything in the 2nd Amendment that says anything about conditions required for a God-given right.

An article of clothing preventing someone from seeing the firearm I have on my person is not referred to anywhere in the 2nd Amendment, and should NOT require me to spend hundreds of dollars and multiple hours of my time to get a plastic card issued by the State of Nebraska allowing me to exercise that God-given right.

We need to work on getting Constitutional Carry in Nebraska.... ASAP!!!
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline DaveB

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2011, 09:43:48 AM »
I would agree about the 2nd and concealed, but it had to be hard to conceal a musket, so it was never an issue. A gun is a gun, concealed or not, it is still a gun that is a human right to own. The problem is that the 2nd Amendment was never allowed to be kept current with the technology, and therefore became an easy target to be used to change the interpretation. That doesn't make sense, but I know what I mean.

Offline armed and humorous

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Re: Does Concealed Gun Give Cops Right to Search You?
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2011, 03:03:15 PM »
I wholly agree that 2A does not distinguish between types of arms, does not mention loaded, unloaded, concealed, or open carry, and says that this right shall not be infringed.  In a perfect world, anyone should be allowed to carry any weapon in any manner they choose so long as they don't use it to commit some type of assualt or robbery.  There's the rub.  Once someone has demonstrated that they care not for the law (convictions for crimes), it becomes reasonable to conclude that allowing them to carry weapons creates increased risks for society.  This is the basis for many gun control measures, such as not allowing felons to possess firearms.

In that we, as citizens, expect our professional law enforcement officers to enforce the law, and in doing so they encounter dangerous people, I have no problem allowing them some leniency regarding the rights of people they have reason to question or detain.  I am willing to go along with reasonable actions by LEOs in order for them to do their duty without fear of bodily harm.

Yes, there are some over-zealous, or just plain bad people in the ranks of LEOs.  My experience has been that they are few and far between, and I don't believe we should put all LEOs at risk simply to protect citizens from what amounts to a cautionary measure by police (unless, of course, you are some kind of criminal).  If you haven't done anything wrong, you're not likely to suffer any more than a minor inconvenience if stopped by an LEO while armed.  Just cooperate and allow the officer the opportunity to determine that you are not a criminal or a threat, and you will be on your way.
Gun related issues are, by nature, deadly serious.  Still, you have to maintain a sense of humor about them.