Hand-to-Hand Self-Defense: Krav Maga

[JTH]

I'm putting this in a new thread of its own, because I'm thinking this may start a new round of comments.

bkoenig asked:
Slightly off topic, but I've really been wanting to start taking some unarmed self defense classes.  I've kind of been thinking of Krav Maga, both for self defense and just overall fitness.  What's your opinion of that discipline?

Um.  (You are asking a martial arts instructor to comment on a different style of martial arts, so bear in mind there might a BIT of bias in this…    )

Krav Maga----is an interesting art.  It was first created to be taught to fit, motivated aggressive 18-22 year old males as a combat method.  The style was not meant in any way for "self-defense" purposes as we currently mean the term, and as a combat system it is extremely simplistic and effective in terms of using gross body movement and power.

Note:  Simplistic doesn't mean dumb or childish---if you only have a limited time to teach people, and they will only have a limited time to practice, you want simple, straightforward techniques that are well-integrated.  The original basic combat system was well-designed for that purpose.

Jumping ahead quite a few years, Krav Maga made it to America, whereupon it immediately became extremely commercialized.  There are several different versions of Krav Maga currently available in the U.S.:

1) The Combat Version! normally taught by buff, dangerous-looking people who advertise the deadliness of their style, but nonetheless market it as a self-defense art.  (Which of course makes no sense, since "deadly combat art" and "self-defense art" are two very different things.)  The problem is that many of these buff, large guys are using their muscles and size to make the techniques work, which means if you aren't a buff, large guy, it is going to be a problem.

Not to mention that many of these instructors have changed the original curriculum in an attempt to make it more "self-defense oriented" which would be fine---except that adding a wrist release or two to a combination that includes a neck-break doesn't really turn it into a useful self-defense reaction.

2) The Module Version! used by local ATA Taekwondo instructors among other people.  Awhile back, continuing in their commercially successful model of having various other arts taught in a TKD school, the ATA talked a Krav Maga instructor into creating a weekend seminar to "certify" TKD instructors (yes, I know the seminar is longer but seriously?!) so that they can teach Krav Maga classes in their TKD school.  The TKD-school Krav Maga tends to be very basic, and often there are some interesting ideas brought into it regarding what "self-defense" actually is.

3) The actual stuff.  Rare, but possible to find though not necessarily in this area.  Normally the person teaching it is fit, but doesn't look like he spends all his free time looking at mirrors in the gym.  The movements are straightforward, smooth, body-powered (not arm or leg-powered) and integrated (meaning that there is a commonality of movement that is often missing in the other versions).  It is completely concerned with causing maximum damage in a minimum amount of time, and generally attempts to maim/kill the attacker/opponent as the goal of any sequence.  Good stuff.

Just unfortunately, not really a self-defense style.  Great combat style given the purpose for which it was created.

So---for fighting and for fitness (because it will beat you into shape!) Krav Maga, the original, can be really good.  Self-defense-wise---it really depends on what the instructor knows about self-defense versus fighting (and how both are very different from combat) and how well they understand their art.

This, by the way, is said by someone who does NOT teach Krav Maga, so take it with a grain of salt.  It also simplifies a number of fairly complex and different situations into three basic groups.  In my experience, this covers 90% of what you'll see out there that is taught as Krav Maga, however.

[sigh]  Cue the people who practice Krav Maga touting its perfection as a self-defense art the way it is taught by THEIR instructor.

(Am I supposed to advertise MY martial arts school here?  Well, I won't.  If you want to know, PM me.)

You asked, so there you go. 

[bkoenig]

Thanks for the input.  That actually does line up with a lot of what I've heard about it.

[AAllen]

I will second what JTH has stated.  But will add a note, anything that gets you moving is going to help with overall fitness.  If that is your primary interest and perhaps you would be joining a friend or someone else to do this and have a bit of fun together any martial art class will work.

Now the part where I need to say no offense intended, but in my experience (and I have studied multiple martial arts, not a master or instructor of any just a student) most of the training time does not teach realistic self defense.  There is some but you must learn to apply technical in ways that may not exactly be what is taught.  Most instructors have, due to the dangers of students getting injured, removed or limited what is taught to some degree.  There are also lots of instructors who because this "limited" version is all they have ever known don't know how to work some of the more dangerous items into their instruction, of course that raises new dangers for those instructors since things they do teach are so closely related to these movements that can cause major injuries or worse.

Again I will say that any martial arts training is good.  Even the folks that teach "sport" forms of martial arts help develop physical fitness and greatly improved reactions.  Want to get better times and improve your accuracy at the next practical shooters match?  Martial arts training will help in multiple ways.

[AAllen]

If you didn't know I'm not a member of the shooting games does not prepare you for self defense crowd.  I believe that just so you recognize the differences and know that the shooting "games" are not realistic self defense the skills needed, accuracy and speed, are improved by these events.

[dcjulie]

I'll add to what is being said about martial arts.  I have taken Hapkido for several years.  It is a martial art designed for self-defense.  While I know some places "water down" their self-defense instruction, we don't.  We talk about many aspects of self-defense and training.  I have, unfortunately, had to use my martial arts training a couple of times - and it works.  I was not in the middle of a life-or-death situation, but was involved in a physical situation that I was able to get out of without injury.  To me, that was success.

Part of martial arts training is also awareness training, but that is ALSO for another thread.

If you are looking for physical fitness, go to a gym and get a personal trainer.  If you are looking for self-defense, look for a reputable place that is not trying to make a ton of money selling belts.

[Gunscribe]

There is some good information here and I do not wish to seem as though I am knocking martial arts because I won't.

I will criticize some instructors that teach fighting and call it self defense.

No matter what each of us thinks self defense is, we need to understand that it is a legally defined term and our actions must conform to that definition for society to judge what may have been done as self defense.

Example; A Martial arts school trains their students to respond with an A, B and C move if a "criminal" throws a punch a certain way. In real life if the criminal is stopped with punch A and the student delivers B and C as he was trained ad infinitem to do, then the student has, in the eyes of the law become the aggressor. Now it is two citizens with equal rights under the law engaged in the illegal act of fighting.

Fighting is not self defense.

I am not suggesting not to take a martial arts class. What I am saying is, if it is for the purpose of developing self defense skills, not only you but your instructor MUST understand what is self defense and what is fighting.

Again, fighting is not self defense. Self defense is a legally defined term and you will go to jail for fighting.

[JTH]

I will criticize some instructors that teach fighting and call it self defense.

No matter what each of us thinks self defense is, we need to understand that it is a legally defined term and our actions must conform to that definition for society to judge what may have been done as self defense.

[snip]

I am not suggesting not to take a martial arts class. What I am saying is, if it is for the purpose of developing self defense skills, not only you but your instructor MUST understand what is self defense and what is fighting.

Completely agree.  The above is (IMO) the biggest problem with many martial arts schools who say they "teach self-defense".  (Second biggest being that what they teach isn't realistic at all in terms of actual real-life self-defense situations.)

If the instructor can't articulate the level of action that justifies the particular response you are practicing, and every "self-defense combination" ends in a neck-break or a spinning kick, then you probably aren't learning what you think you are learning. 

[gsd]

After 10 years of martial arts in Jiu-Jitsu, Koro-Ken, and Boxing i've learned that true Krav Maga can be summarized into two words.

Brutally Efficient.

Now keep in mind, i haven't actually stepped in a dojo for close to 8 years, but the one guest IDF instructor that we had stressed short, powerful, core-oriented movements.  Even in a learning setting, it tends to be discouraging to be tossed around like a rag doll by someone who is 5'10" and maybe 165.

[Lorimor]

So, what's good for slow middle-aged old guys with thick skulls?  I have a fairly high tolerance for pain but that's one personal trait I'd rather not exercise if I don't have to. 

[JTH]

So, what's good for slow middle-aged old guys with thick skulls?  I have a fairly high tolerance for pain but that's one personal trait I'd rather not exercise if I don't have to. 

Initial short reply:

What are you looking for?  (In other words, what sort of purpose/focus would your training serve?  If self-defense, what types of SD altercations are likely for you?  What sorts are you wishing to be able to defend against?)

How much time are you willing to give it?  (Will you go to practice twice a week for 1.5 hours each time?  Just once a week?  Will you practice at all?   Will you go to a seminar once a year?  Just a one-day seminar once?)

Answer those, and I can give you a better long answer. 

[Greybeard]

My suggestion is what the law enforcement folks are trained to do: Pressure Point Control Tactics. PPCT is an effective self defense, and non aggressive. Stop the threat and control the aggressor. I was trained and certified when I was an armed security officer several years ago. I am no longer certified, and my skills are rusty, but I believe that I remember enough to protect myself. 

[AAllen]

Initial short reply:

What are you looking for?  (In other words, what sort of purpose/focus would your training serve?  If self-defense, what types of SD altercations are likely for you?  What sorts are you wishing to be able to defend against?)

How much time are you willing to give it?  (Will you go to practice twice a week for 1.5 hours each time?  Just once a week?  Will you practice at all?   Will you go to a seminar once a year?  Just a one-day seminar once?)

Answer those, and I can give you a better long answer. 

I would add a couple of questions; Where are you, and what is there instruction readily available for?  The instructor is more important as the form being taught.  Yes some forms are better than others for some things, but a good instructor is needed to get any lesson accomplished.  Personally I would rather study from someone who teaches a form that is not ideal for my needs that is a good instructor than one who teaches the best martail art but is not very accomplished themselves as well as not being a good teacher.  Unfortunately there are a lot of those out there running belt sales programs.

[dcjulie]

PPCT is great, but not everyone is sensitive to pressure points.  I know of several guys who essentially have NO pressure points in their arms.  You can poke, press, grind into those points all day long and all they get is annoyed.  I don't know what the LE's teach, but knowing something in addition to PPCT can be quite important.

[JTH]

My suggestion is what the law enforcement folks are trained to do: Pressure Point Control Tactics. PPCT is an effective self defense, and non aggressive. Stop the threat and control the aggressor. I was trained and certified when I was an armed security officer several years ago. I am no longer certified, and my skills are rusty, but I believe that I remember enough to protect myself. 

When I was in Corrections, I learned PPCT as it was taught in the curriculum, and I've done some research about it in general.  I certainly understand what they are trying to do (give certain tools to LEO and Corrections folks who won't train on their own, who probably don't have any background in self-defense or restraint techniques, and who will only get a 6 to 8 hours of class time on it) and I've read a decent amount of the research the Bruce Siddle (founder of PPCT) did upon which he based his system.

Separate from what I think about his curriculum (in short, I think a lot of it, within the constraints listed above, is pretty good, though some is laughably bad) I have one major issue with it as a self-defense system:  It isn't one.

While there are parts of it that are about self-defense techniques, and it is also advertised as one (restraints AND self-defense, all in one!) it really isn't. (In their defense, they market it specifically to LEO and Corrections folks for departmental use, so as "SD" it really is about all they'd be able to use.)

In the main, the goal of most PPCT techniques, tactics, and overall strategy involves ending in a restraint situation.  (A number of which won't really work well one-on-one, though they work admirably in 2-on-one.)  However, for self-defense for people who aren't corrections or LEO folks, you don't want to work towards a restraint (what would you do with them?  Sit on them till the police show up?  Ever tried to keep a resisting person down?  It is incredibly difficult...) you want to work towards stopping the attacker well enough to escape to safety.  Most restraint techniques are such that if you let go---the subject can and will immediately start attacking you again with no decrease in ability, and often an increase in anger/craziness level. 

PPCT doesn't have escaping to safety as a goal.  Because of this, the tactics and techniques taught don't really get you to that point.  Matter of fact, the PPCT page itself says quite clearly that PPCT is a subject control system (which it is).  As such, it just isn't going to give you the SD tactics that you might need. 

In my opinion. 

As a side comment---while it says Pressure Point Control Tactics, the pressure point stuff is mostly for dealing with non-compliant subjects in terms of restraint and movement.  The PP stuff that is in the SD parts is actually not bad, because the strikes themselves will work just fine even if the point itself is not hit.  Like most PP things, the "PP" effect is an "icing on the cake" sort of thing.

(edited to correct typos)